Sorry to be negative about what I'm sure will be a great product for many on this forum. However, for those who want to use this unit to operate a second room and actually control the source/volume from the second room, then this is not the pre/pro for you. I've posted on this subject here and at the HT Forum.

First, the substantive issues of Zone 2:

I sent Outlaw an e-mail via their web submission form with the following questions:

Quote:
I have a Yamaha RX-V2095 which is my control center for HT and whole house distributed a/v. The volume control motor has been acting up (sticks intermittently) requiring a $150 fix. Since I pre-wired for 2 surround back channels and have 2 direct radiating speakers currently serving front effect duties (Atlantic Tech 251.1LR's will mate great with my System 350THX), I figured why spend another $150 on old 5.1 when, for another $750 I could make the move to 7.1. So, a couple of nights ago I got on the waiting list for the 950.

Anyway, on to the questions. I was reading the Outlaw manual and am concerned about its Zone 2/record operation and features.

One, it looks like the record out is limited to the active input selected. That is, you can't select Video 2 to watch and send Video 3 out to be recorded. Am I reading this right? If so, my 2095 is superior in this respect because it does have selectable record out independent of the source being viewed/listened to at the time.

Two, why no video output for Zone 2? Again, my 2095 has this. Am I missing something?

Three, are there discrete IR codes to access Zone 2 source selection and volume control? The operation described in the manual is push Zone 2 button on remote, scroll down to source or volume, then toggle source or change volume. That's fine if you're looking at the 950 or its OSD. Not fine at all if you're downstairs just listening to music and pointing the remote at IR repeaters. Now, with the 2095, I have direct one button access to any source and volume up and down. I have a page in my Pronto remote that has the applicable buttons. If Outlaw has discrete IR codes to access source/volume, I can program them into the Pronto. If not, not sure what I'm going to do.

Any help you all can provide will be most appreciated. Discovering these limitations has been somewhat of a disappointment. After seeing all the great reviews and excitement about the 950, I too was really excited about upgrading to 7.1 and entering the world of separates. But separates for separates sake is not enough when a 3 year old receiver appears to have more options and flexibility in record options and multi-zone/custom install functionality.

I hope that there are workarounds, otherwise I'll have to think long and hard about "upgrading" to the 950. At least I'll have a long time to think about it given the lengthy waiting list.

Thanks in advance for any help you all can provide.

-Cliff


Outlaw dutifully responded within 4-5 days as follows:

Quote:
Hello Cliff,

Thanks for contacting the Outlaws!

1. There are no discrete codes for the remote room, but rather there IS a separate IR input. You use the same codes programmed into a remote, but simply connect a remote sensor in the second zone to the proper input on the Model 950's rear panel. This way you can use the same remote (and codes) in both locations.

2. Yes, you are correct in that there is no video feed to the remote room. Adding that feature would require additional circuitry and that simply wasn't possible if we were to meet the $899 target cost of the Model 950. While we recognize that some users do want the video feed, it is our feeling that most second zone usage is for audio, rather than video.

3. We're sorry, but you are correct to note that the record output is tied to the main input source. Again, this is a feature that we did not add in order to concentrate on those aspects of the design that contribute to the Model 950's sonic performance. In most cases we recommend that the second zone system be used as a record output buss where separate source recording is required, but in your case the second zone is being put to its intended purpose.

Please do not hesitate to let me know if you have any other questions.

Best Regards,

Scott


I appreciated the response, but particularly with regard to discrete IR codes and navigating punch down menus, the reply was non-responsive and not informative. So I replied back on April 29th as follows:

Quote:
Scott,

Thanks for the speedy reply. I know you guys have your hands full right now.

Just to clarify a couple of issues:

You stated:
> 1. There are no discrete codes for the remote room, but rather there IS a separate IR input. You use the same codes programmed into a remote, but simply connect a remote sensor in the second zone to the proper input on the Model 950's rear panel. This way you can use the same remote (and
codes) in both locations.

Allright, but when in the second zone room with the same codes, how do you navigate a punch down menu without the benefit of seeing the 950's front panel display or on-screen display. In other words, if I'm in the second zone listening to my DVD player and want to switch to Video 2, how do I accomplish this? I have to hit the "multi" button once to bring up the Zone 2 menu. I have to hit it again to bring up source selection. I then have to scroll through the various sources (see page 36 of the 950 manual). It is impossible to do all of this unless I'm looking at the front panel or OSD. By definition, Zone 2 is a remote zone away from the 950 and its accompanying monitor. If I'm not looking at the FPD or OSD, how will I (or anyone else) know which source I've scrolled over to? That is the crux of the problem. With no one-button (discrete code) access to source selection or volume control for Zone 2, the only way to change sources or volume is to physically walk to where the 950 is and look at its FPD (or OSD) and see which source you're about to select or (punch down to where the volume control is).

Although my day job is as an Attorney/CPA for Mississippi's largest private school, I do custom install projects as a side business. I designed, procured, and installed a Training & Presentation Theater with a budget of . . . for our school (unofficial website link: www.digitaldreamtheaters.com/JA_theater_pictures.htm
My point being that I am a hardcore multi-zone, custom installation user/vendor. I tell you all this in hopes that you'll take my questions/critiques seriously.

I think the shortcomings of this unit with respect to only having punch down menu control of Zone 2 functions are huge and essentially eliminate the functionality of this unit for custom install/multi-zone situations. Why have an IR input for Zone 2 use if you effectively can't even use the remote in Zone 2? With all the other primary uses (audio dropouts, bass management, video conversion, etc.) of this unit being on the front burner, I just think this is one that everybody has missed. Any of the beta testers
power multi-zone users? I understand that with this unit, keeping the price down has been of major concern, but by definition pre/pro's are supposed to be flexible and feature laden for what they do. If Yamaha could include
these features in their Yamaha RX-V2095 plus pretty darn good processing and 7 channels of amplification (2 front effects channels) for just a couple hundred more than the 950 (which of course has no amplification), then the
feature set of having discrete Zone 2 codes/control can't be that costly.

If there are workarounds, please let me know. This will certainly effect my decision as to whether to purchase the 950 (and/or utilize it in any of my custom install jobs). I'm hoping you'll tell me there's another way to control Zone 2 besides the punch down menus. Maybe the engineers set it up to respond to discrete codes which I know your remote does not have on it, but could be utilized in devices such as my Phillips Pronto. It may be this
feature is there but just hasn't been made known to you (wishing a little here :-) ).

Again, thanks for your time, and I look forward to your response. Please do checkout our Training & Presentation Theater - its pretty neat.

Take care,
Cliff


Well, 9 days later, I've gotten no response from Scott or anyone else at Outlaw. I believe I raised some pretty legitimate questions. Even if they are researching the issue, a quick reply stating that fact would be nice. I know others have accused Outlaw of playing favorites with their customers (coddling some, ignoring others). I have to say that certainly seems to be the case in this instance.

Meanwhile, with the passage of time, I've decided to go another direction. I'm putting my 2095 in on a custom install job I'm doing that will only be 5.1 (due to wife approval factor). So, I'll be selling it, and just moving to a new 7.1 receiver. Which, by the way, everyone I've looked at so far (in the $1,100 to $2,000 range) has video zone 2 out, selectable record out, and dedicated codes (and in most cases separate remotes) for zone 2 proving that these features are not expensive to implement.

As Outlaw is a relatively new company, hopefully they'll learn just a little bit from this: one, design a better zone 2 system; and two, ignoring your potential customers causes them to seek other alternatives and not buy your product.

Sorry this is so long, but confession (and venting) is good for the soul.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliffk (edited May 09, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Cliffk (edited May 09, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Cliffk (edited May 09, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Cliffk (edited May 09, 2002).]