There is no end to this! Help!

Ok, i went to purchase the new Toshiba HD DVD player and discovered that it has only 5.1 analog inputs. So how do I use this with my 7.1 outlaw gear? Thanks...again.

Which player are you looking at? I looked up the Toshiba HD-XA1 HD DVD player and it has optical output, digital cable output, HDMI output and the 5.1 output you mentioned. There are several ways you could hook this up to the 990. I think one option might include getting a HDMI to DVI cable for the HD video and running your audio through one of the above mentioned formats.

Toshiba HD-XA1 Rear View

Just leave the back surrounds unconnected. Not many DVD's have the back surrounds active anyway.

I do not understand leaving the back surrounds unconnected. Why even have a 7.1 system?

mzpro5, so you are saying that I can use either optical output or HDMI output but I do not have to use all of the outputs that you mentioned.

Using the optical or coaxal audio output will get you the standard DTS audio (player converts Dolby Digital to DTS) The HDMI output and the analog 5.1 output will play the DTS-HD audio. Future players will have 7.1 and I suppose there will be more 7.1 DVD's as well.

What is DTS? Should I just stick with a 5.1 system?

There is Dolby Digital (DD) and DTS. They are two companies that present audio in two different ways.
Most DVD's use Dolby sound processing, but sometimes the menu gives you a choice of either format. Some claim that DTS sounds better due to less compression, but who knows! All modern prepro's and receivers can process both formats. I think 5.1 (fronts, centre, subwoofer, and two rear surround speakers) is plenty for most, at least it is for me! Depends on your room as well.

You have a number of choices which can make things confusing.

First does your TV/monitor have a DVI or HDMI input? If it has a DVI input then for video you could run a HDMI to DVI cable from the Toshiba to the 990 and run a DVI cable to your TV from the 990. That takes care of your video feed. You would still need to run one of the audio options such as optical or digital cable.

EDIT: After seeing cappra's post I would say if you are using the HDMI/DVI route for your video to run your audio with the 5.1 analog connections. It seems that way you get the intended HD multi-channel sound.

If your TV doesn't have a DVI or HDMI input you would connect your video via the component connections and then decide on an audio connection.

I have to admit I am not completely up to speed regarding the HD DVD player. I'm pretty sure you don't need to be concerned with the 5.1 analog outputs to get multi-channel sound with an HD DVD. I use the 5.1 channel on the 990 for my SACD/DVD audio player. There is currently nothing with a 7.1 analog output, Outlaw included that with an eye to the future.

Hope this helps some. My ability to explain things in writing is not always that comprehesible.

my tv is the 50" Samsung. It has 2 HDMI inputs. My question now is do I really need to set up a 7.1 system or should I just stick with the 5.1? That is 2 fronts,center and two rears. Thanks.

No. There is no technical reason you need to go with a 7.1 channel system if 5.1 meets your needs.

This is going to be more confusing but if your TV has HDMI I would connect directly from the HD DVD player to the TV for video and run the 5.1 analog to the 990 for audio.

ANOTHER EDIT: I went back and looked at an earlier post of yours and see you have a 7.1 speaker arrangement so you have what is currently available regarding 7.1. Again I am not aware of any device that outputs in 7.1 that is for the future.

Just a note, since you are dealing with so much that is new to you have you considered the consulting/installation services of a professional installer in your area?

Please bear in mind that the HDMI carries both the video and audio signal. The HDMI cable will support any of the multi channel audio(up to 8 channels!) but most displays only have stereo. You could use a DVI adaptor and then use the 5.1 analog outputs for the audio. I can't say if the Toshiba player disables the 5.1 analog output when using the HDMI cable.

According to what I'm reading on the Toshiba site, those DVD players only support 5.1 audio in either HDMI or analog output. However if you use the standard S/PDIF coax or optical you will get whatever is on the DVD (which could be DTS 6.1 or DD EX), except the new audio formats.

The advantage I see you getting using the analog output or HDMI audio is if the DVD is encoded in the new audio formats, but only 5.1.

Can the 990 do Dolby PLIIx on the 5.1 analog input? If so then it will expand the 5.1 input into 7 channels.

Recent article online from CNET.com, " Ten Ways HD-DVD Falls Short "

Very weak criticism.....Sounds like a Bluray supporter!

It does not. I'm one of the one's who was going to buy one of these until all the bug reports started popping up. Audio being one of them. If you use any type of scaler or pass through in front of the audio source the HDA1 drops the audio down to two channel. The work around has been HDMI to the scalers and running the 5.1 to the preamp and hope for no lip sync issues. There are a bunch of other bugs but that goes beyond the scope of what is being asked. Bottom line I'm waiting for some other vendors to release a HD DVD player.

Jeff

If you are talking about the new HD DVDs they do not have DTS or DD tracks. What you will get on the S/PDIF is the DD+ or DTS-HD track encoded (downcoverted) to regular DTS. In which case you could layer DTS-ES or DP-IIx to get the rears, but in a lossy format.

All the HD-DVDs have the new formats. The advantage to the analog outputs is you get the full resolution sound not a lossy DTS format. The real solution is HDMI.

Quote:

Can the 990 do Dolby PLIIx on the 5.1 analog input? If so then it will expand the 5.1 input into 7 channels.

No it can not.

This is a direct quote from a middle of a DVD review from Bill Hunt at the Digital Bits:

To clarify a little, the DolbyHD audio on the initial DVD releases is downconverted in the Toshiba players to allow it to come out of the coaxial/toslink outputs. It's downconverted to a bitrate that is equal to current DTS standards. I highly recommend reading all of Bill's posting on his experiences with the Toshiba player on this site:

www.thedigitalbits.com

He explains what's going on with this player and the format a lot better than most people out there. It's well worth the read if you own the player or are thinking of getting it.

You can use both the HDMI and 5.1 analog outputs at the same time. The Toshiba will not disable the output to the analog side when HDMI is connected. I tried this just a few minutes ago and got a big boost in sound clarity.

Miscanthus, I would suggest simply taking HDMI out from my Toshiba HD DVD player and running it directly into the rear HDMI input on the Samsung plasma display. No need to go to your 990 with an HDMI to DVI cable. The only benefit you would gain by doing this is the capability of using the 990 as a switching unit for your video sources. If this is of importance to you then by all means run the video through the 990. You will have to purchase a second DVI to HDMI cable if you choose to do this. Toshiba HDMI out to 990 DVI in. 990 DVI out to Samsung HDMI in.

If you do not want to use the 990 to switch between your video sources. Then do as I originally suggested. Toshiba HDMI out to Samsung HDMI in. Plain and simple. This will take care of getting the video signal to the display. Also, you will not have to buy a second cable.

Now for the audio side. Simple, 5.1 analog Out from the Toshiba HD DVD to 5.1 analog in on the 990. This option is the best that you can do with this player for right now. This is how I have recently set mine up to play and it sounds way better than this next option.

Audio option 2. Take a fiber optical cable and connect the Toshiba's optical output to the optical input on the 990. That's it. This option works but does not offer the benefit of Dolby Digital Plus. All output is in DTS format ONLY.

I suggest using a 5.1 speaker setup for now. 7.1 output is obviously not supported through the analog outputs, and the optical or digital coax. is not going to support any of the higher audio formats found on HD DVD. The Toshiba transcodes all audio formats to DTS as a default setting when output over an SPDIF connetion like optical or digital coaxial cable. This means 5.1 or at best 6.1 surround sound.

In order to get 7.1 Dolby Digital Plus you will have to use the HDMI output. But, there are no receivers or processor on the market which support HDMI inputs for audio processing as of yet. At least I am unaware of any that do.
This is something for the near future. You will be looking for a processor or receiver which supports a version 1.3 HDMI input on the back panel. To be honest the Toshiba will only support Dolby True HD in a 2 channel format. Furthermore, it does not offer support for any of the Dolby True HD multi-channel (7.1) formats. Also DTS HD is not supported according to the manual. I am still a little fuzzy on the DTS HD as it is not all that clear. Anyway I hope this helps you out a little.

First off there is no 7.1 DD+ software available or AFAIK even announced. There are HDMI1.1 receivers and at least one HDMI 1.1 Pre/Pro namely the Anthem D2. Everyone keeps saying you need HDMI 1.3, including the Digital Bits article. I'm not buying into that because 1.1 can handle 8 channels of high resolution LPCM data. It is a matter of where you want the data decoded, in the player or the Pre/Pro. I'd just as soon leave the decoder in the player assuming the newer models can do more then just two channels of TrueHD. Once you have the 5.1 raw digital LPCM data in your Pre/Pro you should be able to apply processing to it to get the rear channels.

I don't think you understand my position obie and it looks like it is my fault. I did not go out of my way to inform people that there is no 7.1 audio available. I did not remember to speak in the future tense when discussing 7.1 audio and for that I do apologize. But, I think you would agree that there will be plenty of 7.1 audio which takes advatage of HDMI to come.

Yes HDMI was designed from the start to carry audio frequencies up to 192 kHz with a word width of up to 24 bits on up to 8 channels. I do agree with you there. Yes HDMI 1.2a for example is backwards compatiable with 1.2, 1.1 and 1.0. It was not my intention to give the impression that older versions would not work with newer ones or did not pass multi-channel audio.

You are right the Anthem D2 ($6500) has HDMI inputs. Arcam has a couple of models with HDMI inputs. The Integra RDC-7.1 is another pricey piece with HDMI 1.0 on it. But, I can think of several better ways to drop $5000 than blowing it on a single piece of gear.

My point is why get a dated version of HDMI even if it is only a few months old. If you are going to up grade your processor in order to do Dolby Ture HD (7.1) in the future. It might as well incorporate the most current technology.

Ultimately I was talking about the capability of the Toshiba HDA1 and how it will intergrate with future processor models. I don't mean for this to be a rant really. But, I just wanted to clear a few things up.

YES, stick with 5.1 more people have that then 6.1 or 7.1

E'pin Sen Ob - Actually I agree with pretty much everything you said. My comment was directed more to the Digital Bits article and the general perception that HDMI1.3 is required for the new formats. My contention is HDMI1.1 can do the job as long as the decoders are built in the player. There is a lot of evidence that indicates that the decoders may stay in the players due to interactive functions and commentaries etc. I've also read that for HD-DVD the disks would have to be authored differently then they are now to decode outside the player.

The Digital Bits article mentions that the Blu-Ray discs will have raw PCM on them, again HDMI1.1 can handle this. I think everyone has gotten used to decoding in their Pre/Pros and just assume that is where these new players are headed. I’m not saying the industry will not eventually move to HDMI1.3 and decoding in the Pre/Pro but I have the feeling that is still a year or two away as the HDMI1.3 spec isn’t even approved yet.

I believe there are also some HDMI1.1 compatible receivers out that are less expensive then the Pre/Pros mentioned. It looks like many also assume it is just HDMI1.3 that is holding things up. That is only half the equation, the real challenge for the Pre/Pro and receiver comapnies may be getting the new Codecs running on their processors.

obie_fl : I think you are misinterpreting what Bill is trying to say in regards to the HDMI spec and the transmission of the new sound formats. I don't want to put words into anyboby mouths here but here is the issue I see with your arguement. The current HDMI 1.1 spec may allow for the transmission of up to 8 channels but not at the higher bitrate the new codecs call for. If you're saying that the player is doing the decoding, then you're going to end up losing information. It will still sound good but it won't allow you to hear entirely what the format can present.

Here's my example: Take SACD over Firewire. It's doable and a bunch of players and receivers exist in all price ranges that are capable of it. You don't, however, get the full benefit of SACD because you end up transcoding DSD to PCM, thus losing what makes SACD a different format.

I know I over simplified that but it gets across what I'm trying to say. Until there's a unified, single connection that transmits all of the proposed formats they're talking about to equipment that can process the information properly, these new formats aren't going anywhere. Coming full circle, I think that's why Bill brought up HDMI 1.3 as neccesary. Why have the new hi-def audio formats if you don't have the technology to support them? Again, that's my interpretation of the article and you can certainly email Bill to see exactly what he meant.

Jason - I have to disagree with your analogy, you are correct a purist wouldn't want to convert DSD to PCM, but it is not analogous to the discussion at hand. (For the record I am a purist and would not want to convert DSD to PCM either.) Bitrate of the new codecs with regard to HDMI does not come into play if you are decoding in the player. Think of it this way if the player decodes the new codecs correctly to 24/192 PCM how is that different then decoding them to 24/192 in the Pre/Pro? All of these new codecs decode to some form of PCM, you are not changing formats just where the track is decoded. HDMI1.1 has the capability to transmit 8 channels of 24/192 PCM you aren’t converting to any intermediate format like in the SACD example.

I try to be open minded but I don’t see the downside here. Maybe there is some technical aspect I am missing. Again let me say that I do believe we will eventually transition to decoding in the Pre/Pros, I just don't see that many advantages over what we can do today with HDMI1.1 gear.

It's mostly that your pre/pro is likely to have better decoding and DACs than the HD-disc player. The real purist wouldn't care where it was decoded (and probably couldn't hear a difference) as long as all decoders are equal. I suspect that 192/24 PCM does allow a pretty pristine full fidelity signal to be transferred. That said, I want to make the decision where I decode!

I am less that certain about this but doesn't DSD eventually get converted to PCM in the SACD player prior to DA conversion? I always thought that Sony was just jerking us around with a new copyguard approach because at the end of the you go through a DAC. If I'm wrong somebody please explain. I have some outstanding SACDs so I see nothing wrong with whatever they are doing

The DAC doesn't come into play you are still using your Pre/pro DAC either way. The decoding should be the same. The same bitstream input should output the exact same PCM stream no matter where the decoder is physically located. I guess you could argue that one or the other processor has a better codec implementation. Keep in mind that Dolby TrueHD is lossless so I would expect the PCM output to be identical or nearly so.

I guess I’m not being very clear. Think of the DD+ (lossy) or TrueHD (lossless) decoder as a black box. You input an encoded bitstream into the black box what is output on the other side is 24/96 PCM, whether it is in the player or the Pre/Pro. Maybe I should have made that clear earlier the output of the decoder is PCM no matter what. HDMI1.1 has more then enough bandwidth to transmit it, twice as much in fact as it can do eight channels of 24/192 and TrueHD is only 24/96 per channel.

I believe that is often the case especially if you want to do time alignment. I believe Sony and maybe a few others have chipsets that can operate directly on the DSD stream. You are correct though as often times the DSD is converted to PCM for BM and TA in most (all?) Pre/Pros/receivers and in a lot of the players.

Looks like I missed a very interesting debate while I was on the road yesterday and today.

I think that the first generation of both HD-DVD and Blu-ray players are doing something dubious by only offering 5.1 analog outputs. On the one hand (the reason that they probably used to justify the decision), there are no 7.1 DD+ titles in the pipeline and 5.1 speaker setups are still very common. On the other hand (the reason I think it's unfortunate nobody is including 7.1 outputs), many of the early adopters that are going to actually have any interest in these players are running 7.1 setups. If we had HDMI 1.1 inputs on our processors, we could take those 5.1 PCM signals (which I, like obie, don't have a problem with) and apply a bit of processing to get a surround back signal (Pro Logic IIx is capable of it, after all). With that 5.1 analog output as the only way most of us can get to the new tracks (discounting the DTS downmix that is offered at the SPDIF output), our surround back speakers are left high and dry. True, it would add cost to include 7.1 outputs, enough DAC's to support all eight of those channels, and a chip to do a little matrix processing (most likely Pro Logic IIx-based) to offer the option of surround backs with 5.1 soundtracks, but it's a feature that would get used.

Geez, I was just thinking the poor guy that started this thread must be completely lost.

I see ya and raise you (my) .02 cents....

Seeing confusion run rampid and chaos tag teaming w/ confusion - this whole 'new' technology feels like a couple of MBA-ers wanted to be first to market and forgot .... well .... everything.
At least we can feel confident about one thing:
HD-DVD or Blu-ray = Confusion*chaos = a big mess...

That's why it will be at least a year before I give serious consideration to getting involved in either format.

I'll just have to put up with terrible DVD images and crappy 5.1 surrond sound. :p