"Well, I've had or listened to quite a few amps. That's one curious thing about high-end, no seven people seem to agree on what is and isn't."

I understand your point, but you can see more than 7 people on HDforum who think the eARTwo is the best amp they've ever heard in their systems -for whatever that's worth to you. Apparently nothing, since you refuse to even consider the possibility that this amp's that good.

"I've personally owned stuff by the David Hafler Company (when they were around), Sony, Pioneer, Carver, Adcom, Outlaw, others and never heard any difference (except in output volume) between any of them. Based on that, either they all somehow managed to create the exact same 'mid-fi' sound through some massive amplifier conspiracy or amps pretty much take a little signal and make it bigger."

Or you don't realize that they're all of very similar solid state designs that will output similar very clean, yet fairly cold lifeless sound.
Or maybe you're deaf?

What processor and speakers do you use (to ask you again)?

Sony and Pioneer are certainly Not known for making hi-end amps. I don't think I've ever seen a Pioneer amp? The only Sony amp I recently saw was a picture of an ES model sold only in the Asian market. Their ES line is solid mid-fi (middle of the road), but not high end.

Hafler, Carver... it depends, but certainly not high end.
Hafler's known for big power amps for pro audio like live concerts. This isn't refined sound, it's just lots of power. My brother in law has a Hafler amp, and Hafler is based here in Az.

Bob Carver is a certainly creative, but his latest company Sunfire is where his most recent amp design are found. He developed a type of switching power supply so his amps have a ton of power, but run cool. They're conventional solid state otherwise, and I think they're colored in sound.

No exp. with his older amps under the Carver name, but I suspect they're not better just based on them being older designs from the same designer.

Adcom and Outlaw are very solid brands (as is Rotel), but nobody's calling their amps high end.
Not to insult Outlaw -the best value of the bunch.

Stan Warren I think is in Oregon. He's the former 'S' in PS Audio and his Supermods biz is one of the best deals in audio today.
I know he's modded Adcom amps in the past to great results in the words of the several owners. Look him up, and read about what he does to change a mid-fi amp into something much better.

I looking into seeing if he'll mod my 950's output, but I'm waiting till after the hiss fix to look into it.

I'd have to know what you're using for a processor/speakers to say more, but even without knowing that, you have yet to listen to hi-end amps (and probably processors, and probably speakers). You clearly haven't heard anything beyond mid-fi amps that do pretty much sound about the same. Though NOT exactly the same as you say.

"Controlling the driver is a reach."

Re-read my explanation of 'speed' of an amp and you'll see what I mean by a better amp controlling the drivers better than another. The amp IS controling the drivers.
How they do this and how they perfrom is a complicated matter of power supply, feedback (often slowing the amp down a great deal in mid-fi designs), etc...

You've clearly yet to hear this diff. in the gear you've heard so you probably just won't understand me until you do hear the diff. -if ever.

Listen to any tube amp to hear what a totally diff. type of design can do for your sound. I'm not a fan of tube amps, but if it's got a good solid few watts of power, then at moderate volumes and decent eff. speakers you'll hear pretty much distortion free sound from a tube amp and you'll hear how much clearer the sound is.

Tube amps typically have poor control of the bass low end when pushed too far (usually easy to do), and often rolled off highs, so I wouldn't rec. Outlaw make one or anyone buy one.

"The Klipsch sound is partly from the horn, but the horn is an impedence matching device, not an echo chamber. I don't like them, either."

Oh man. This is pointless. I'm trying to help you, but there seems to be no hope of that.

"As for high end companies existence proving something, it does, but nothing one can hear."

Charlie, the brands you've listed you've heard are all low end to decent solid mid-fi performance.

Don't say you hi end brands don't perform better when you've never heard them. And if you do hear them and still say this, then you're just deaf, and you'll gain no benefit from a higher end amp that would otherwise (had you not been deaf) taken you much much closer to reality.

"Now I admit, it's been a while since I went seriously listening to high end stuff, mostly because of my almost uniform disappointment in the past, so maybe I should venture out to see what massive improvements have been discovered in the last 15 years."

Yes! Things have changed in the past 15 years Charlie! Try something in your own home in your own system. Hearing a hi-fi shop system -diff. processor, diff speakers in a diff room that you own hooked up to a certain amp will NOT tell you how the amp itself effects the sound.

You need to try it in your own system where it's the only variable. The same goes for any other components you'd want to try.

I've heard a system of Revel Speakers hooked up to Mark Levinson electronics sound like total garbage. AND I've heard the exact same system sound like one of the best systems I've ever heard. The only diff. was the shop changed locations and the new room the system was in was horrible.
Had I not heard it sound incredible before, I may have gone away thinking Revel or Levinson (or both) were overprices and overated. Now I just think they're overpriced.

"Once our beta test is concluded and the pressure is relieved perhaps I'll do that."

What beta test?

"Are you aware of any dealers in the Portland, Oregon area that you would consider high end dealers?"

I'm in Az Charlie. You might've guess that from my handle? Look in the phone book for hi-fi shops and ask 'em what brands they carry.

"I guess I'd also have to get you to define high end. There is a local ML, B&K, Anthem, DefTech etc. dealer - is that high end to you?"

No, not really. Sort of a mid-fi to entry level hi-end at best. That sounds like an Ultimate Electronics or that type of store. A solid step up from B. Buy/ C. City, but not the best of the best gear.

I won't pretend like there's an exact defi. of what's low, mid, or hi end, but it comes down to the exact product in any case, and NOT price dependant, but that is often a good clue.

ML you say? Is that Mark Levinson or Martin Logan? I'll guess Martin Logan based on the other brands you listed (another good clue as to how high end a store in general is).

Levinson is very much high end, all their products.

Martin Logan is often called high end, but they really have very poor freq. response on the high end. There's more accurate speakers w/ the same speed and openess as Martin Logan, and for much cheaper. My Newform Research speakers for exam., and for the same price as the lowest end of Martin Logans they're faaaaar better.

B&K is a very solid brand. Not really high end, but very good overall. I'd call Outlaw the same yet far cheaper, so it gets my nod in that range.

At first I thought you wrote B&W. I see you didn't but they're a good example too.
Their best speakers are some of the best speakers in the world, but they make diff. lines of speakers w/ diff. cabinets, x-overs, drivers, etc...
Their bottom of their line is not even close to thier top. All their speakers are very good though (at worst), but in the lower end better deals can be had from brands like Axiom, Swans, Onix etc. online.

Anthem's along the lines of B&K, Outlaw, Rotel etc... some products better than others, not HUGE diff. in sound quality, and close-ish prices etc.. (with Outlaw being the best deal IMO).

Def. Tech's?
I hate Def. Techs. They're just lousy IMO.
Not as bad as what I'd call low-fi, but they're popular because of massive advertising, and support from mid fi mags like Sound & Vision. They're the mid-fi version of Bose (Bose owning the low-fi Best Buy electronic masses).

Bipole speakers are just a bad design IMO, and their sound is nothing special. The powered subs in the mains are pointless. Much better 'true sub' response from an actual subwoofer like SVS or Hsu. Mate that to a pair of bookshelf Def. Techs and you'll trounce their top o' the line for less money.
But for the price there's much better anyway, so I wouldn't even rec. Def. Tech's bookshelf models.

IMO, skip brick and motar stores/products in most cases. The best performance/prices are from online only outfits (like Outlaw) now-a-days (if you know where to look, but you should 'cuz there's tons of people like me online directing others to these better deals on better performing products -that's how you found out about Outlaw I'll bet).

Order the eAR250 and listen to it. If your processor and speakers don't suck (I don't know what you own), you'll hear a BIG diff. I can't say this anymore clearly.
And I say this knowing that you just told me you didn't hear ANY diff. in all the previous amps you've heard.

Try it for yourself if you really want to get into high end. Send it back if you can't hear any diff. This won't happen though, and you'll want to upgrade your other electronics, because the eAR250 will be the strongest link in your chain hands down.

If you don't hear a diff., stick with Outlaw electronics, the best performance for the price, and get the Onix Rocket speakers if you need new speakers.
This is certainly nothing but a great combo, but don't fool yourself that much better doesn't exist.

I call something high end if it's really elite in some way. Some type of engineering that's a step up from typical. This usually costs more but it IS actually better sounding.

Krell, Theta, Ayre, Pass Labs for solid state amps. Very careful use of feedback so the amp doesn't kill the life of the music. You've never heard an amp that doesn't I suspect -by your list of so-so amps you've heard.
Heavily biased into class A, no global feedback, balanced inputs. The 'hi-fi' details that the lower end doesn't often bother with.

I'd write forever if I addressed every single type of product (DAC's, transports, speakers, etc..), so I'll stick with amps since that's the point of the thread.

And I've already said more than once my feeling on the subject.

I'm not sure if Outlaw will ever look to really enter the high end, but I suspect they aren't looking to any time soon. Their high end pre/pro (same for a univ. disc player) will not come out for a long time because they're waiting on all the digital input mess and format wars to get worked out before they go forward. Makes sense.

And they don't seem interested at all in the high end digital amp 'wave of the future' (which started in ~1998) and is best probably exemplified by the eAR amps.