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#97882 - 03/07/18 10:02 PM Re: 976 Dislikes or improvement/update wish list ! [Re: kiwiaudio]
butchgo Offline
Desperado

Registered: 06/22/07
Posts: 368
Loc: Southern Oregon coast
Not being able to rename the inputs is what made me decide to not jump on the 976 right out of the gate.
My 10 year old 990 has that feature and it does not need a keyboard.
That's what I don't understand why this feature was not in the 976 from the get go.
_________________________
Epson 3500 3D projector
93" Carl's Place Flexiwhite DIY screen
Outlaw 976 Pre/Pro
Outlaw 7500 for LCR & L/R surrounds
1- Emotiva Mini X-A100 for rear surrounds
2- Outlaw LFM-1 EX subs
Oppo BDP-105 Blu-ray/DVD/SACD player
Outlaw LCR (Snell Labs) for center channel duty
Tekton Enzo XL L/R
4- Emotiva ERD-1s surround speakers
Monster HTS3600MKII power center

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#97883 - 03/07/18 10:33 PM Re: 976 Dislikes or improvement/update wish list ! [Re: kiwiaudio]
Helson Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 283
Loc: USA
The 990 was how much at launch? $1199.00? This was twelve years ago or so. Factor in inflation and it was that much more expensive a processor at that time than the 976 is now.
_________________________
Main HT <> 976 <> 7200 <> Ultra-X12 <> sapphire ST2 mkII RF/LF <> sapphire SC center
sapphire ST2 mkII SBR/SBL <> sapphire SS SR/SL <> Verizon/DVR <> Vizio M70Q7 <> Oppo UDP-203 <> Amazon 4k Fire TV

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#97884 - 03/08/18 10:47 AM Re: 976 Dislikes or improvement/update wish list ! [Re: arbitrageur]
kiwiaudio Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 85
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By arbitrageur
In addition to granular delay control on each sub output (good call, this could really help fine tune) I would like to see an option to set the low pass crossover to the subs without a high pass on the mains (when using large mains to allow more overlap). There is an option to do this with multichannel DD/DTS but I'd like an option to do it with stereo.

While I'm on the subject, I would like a better explanation of the "Sub Trim" on the "LFE Trim" menu - is it duplicate to the sub trim on the Speaker/Level Trim (I don't think so), seems like it applies to the All Channel Stereo mode? That would make sense since there are explicit settings for DD/DPL/DTS/Stereo but the language the manual uses, overall far better than other products, still leaves me with this question. Are crossovers applied before the EQ for each channel or after? Come to think of it, the 976 is applying bass management to the analog inputs too (this is huge, prior Outlaw products had a fixed analog option for analog bass management or used an ADC) - are the crossovers always analog or are they digitally processed for digital sources?


Did you ever get an answer to your Sub Trim/LFE trim concern arbitrageur ?
_________________________
Double drywalled, "Green Glue" treated Theater
GIK acoustic treatment
Epson 8700UB Projecting on a 135" Seymour XD Audio transparent screen
Outlaw 976 Processor
Outlaw 755 amp for Center and all four surrounds
Adcom GFA 555II for Main L & R channels
Behringer EP4000 for two homemade subs
Outlaw Ultra X13 for REAL Sub Bass !
OPPO BDP103, Marantz CD63SE, Denon DP300F
2 Adcom ACE515s for AC current treatment
Newport Theater Director for AC distribution.
Speakers are all built by myself utilizing Dynaudio Drivers
Second room: Yamaha receiver, Musical fidelity X10D tubes, Carver C9 holographic pro.

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#97885 - 03/08/18 12:28 PM Re: 976 Dislikes or improvement/update wish list ! [Re: kiwiaudio]
arbitrageur Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 12/16/17
Posts: 58
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
No, I still have questions. They aren't getting in the way of enjoying the sound though!

I am currently operating under the impression that the EQ is applied to each source channel and then the crossover is applied. That means that a +3db bump at 30hz on the front left channel will be passed to the sub if using a crossover (small speaker setting), but a +3db bump at 30hz on the sub EQ will only be applied to the LFE channel source.

I had the 976 on a test bench and was convinced that bass management was being applied to an analog input. I fed a DAC into an analog stereo input then plugged powered monitors into the sub and left front XLR outs and confirmed full range (maybe bass limited?) on one speaker and bass only on the other. I didn't invest the time to confirm that the crossover point moved (previous outlaw products had a fixed 80hz crossover for analog), or that the "full range" was actually bass limited as it should be.

I think "Sub Trim" on the "LFE Trim" menu is for managing the sub gain in modes where channels are summed below the crossover, as occurs with All Channel Stereo and with the "Bass Augmentation" modes.


Edited by arbitrageur (03/08/18 12:32 PM)
_________________________
Outlaw Audio Model 976 / 7700 / Ultra-X13
B&W CM9, CM Center, DS3 (side), DM303 (back)
Blue Jeans Cables (XLRs, Canare 4S11 Bi-wire, HDMI)
Tivo Bolt, Xbox Series X, Panasonic ub820, AppleTV 4k, LG C765P
Roon, Allo Digione Signature, Sonore MicroRendu, Uptone Audio LPS-1, Peachtree Audio Nova 150
GIK Acoustics Soffit Bass Traps, 244 Panels, Monster Bass Traps, QRD7 / Polyfusor Diffusers

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#97886 - 03/08/18 02:22 PM Re: 976 Dislikes or improvement/update wish list ! [Re: kiwiaudio]
Deromax Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Shawinigan, PQ, Canada
The proper crossover is applied to the *stereo* analog inputs, since those are digitized for processing, but *not* to the 7.1 input, which is pure analog. There is no such thing as "full range bass limited". If it's bass limited, that means a crossover is in operation! The high pass will be 12 dB per octave, but the sub out will have a 24 dB per octave low pass.
_________________________
Eric Desrochers
http://www.blu-ray.com/community/gallery.php?member=Deromax

" I hear no highs, I feel no lows, it sounds like crap, it must be Bose "

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#97887 - 03/08/18 08:48 PM Re: 976 Dislikes or improvement/update wish list ! [Re: kiwiaudio]
NASANut Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 11/23/17
Posts: 19
Well, I heard back from Outlaw regarding the possibility of a future update to allow custom input names.

Unfortunately, they said they have no plans to make such an upgrade. :-(

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#97888 - 03/09/18 10:47 AM Re: 976 Dislikes or improvement/update wish list ! [Re: arbitrageur]
kiwiaudio Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 85
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By arbitrageur
No, I still have questions. They aren't getting in the way of enjoying the sound though!

I am currently operating under the impression that the EQ is applied to each source channel and then the crossover is applied. That means that a +3db bump at 30hz on the front left channel will be passed to the sub if using a crossover (small speaker setting), but a +3db bump at 30hz on the sub EQ will only be applied to the LFE channel source.

I had the 976 on a test bench and was convinced that bass management was being applied to an analog input. I fed a DAC into an analog stereo input then plugged powered monitors into the sub and left front XLR outs and confirmed full range (maybe bass limited?) on one speaker and bass only on the other. I didn't invest the time to confirm that the crossover point moved (previous outlaw products had a fixed 80hz crossover for analog), or that the "full range" was actually bass limited as it should be.

I think "Sub Trim" on the "LFE Trim" menu is for managing the sub gain in modes where channels are summed below the crossover, as occurs with All Channel Stereo and with the "Bass Augmentation" modes.


Thanks for that info. Well done on your test bench. Ive been confused with these Trims since similar controls were on my Outlaw ICBM. Loved that piece, but have no use for it now !
_________________________
Double drywalled, "Green Glue" treated Theater
GIK acoustic treatment
Epson 8700UB Projecting on a 135" Seymour XD Audio transparent screen
Outlaw 976 Processor
Outlaw 755 amp for Center and all four surrounds
Adcom GFA 555II for Main L & R channels
Behringer EP4000 for two homemade subs
Outlaw Ultra X13 for REAL Sub Bass !
OPPO BDP103, Marantz CD63SE, Denon DP300F
2 Adcom ACE515s for AC current treatment
Newport Theater Director for AC distribution.
Speakers are all built by myself utilizing Dynaudio Drivers
Second room: Yamaha receiver, Musical fidelity X10D tubes, Carver C9 holographic pro.

Top
#97889 - 03/09/18 10:50 AM Re: 976 Dislikes or improvement/update wish list ! [Re: NASANut]
kiwiaudio Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 85
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By NASANut
Well, I heard back from Outlaw regarding the possibility of a future update to allow custom input names.

Unfortunately, they said they have no plans to make such an upgrade. :-(


Thanks for asking them. Im betting the answer does not surprise any of us. All we are doing is giving Outlaw food for thought with their top-of-the-line processor. If it ever comes to be !
I do wonder why though, when its said they monitor these forums, that Outlaw doesnt pipe up and say so right here !!
I suppose they just let us all vent !


Edited by kiwiaudio (03/09/18 10:55 AM)
_________________________
Double drywalled, "Green Glue" treated Theater
GIK acoustic treatment
Epson 8700UB Projecting on a 135" Seymour XD Audio transparent screen
Outlaw 976 Processor
Outlaw 755 amp for Center and all four surrounds
Adcom GFA 555II for Main L & R channels
Behringer EP4000 for two homemade subs
Outlaw Ultra X13 for REAL Sub Bass !
OPPO BDP103, Marantz CD63SE, Denon DP300F
2 Adcom ACE515s for AC current treatment
Newport Theater Director for AC distribution.
Speakers are all built by myself utilizing Dynaudio Drivers
Second room: Yamaha receiver, Musical fidelity X10D tubes, Carver C9 holographic pro.

Top
#97890 - 03/09/18 12:52 PM Re: 976 Dislikes or improvement/update wish list ! [Re: arbitrageur]
Outlaw Ben Offline

Gunslinger

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By arbitrageur


I am currently operating under the impression that the EQ is applied to each source channel and then the crossover is applied.


Correct. EQ is applied to each channel, then the crossovers are applied.

Originally Posted By arbitrageur


That means that a +3db bump at 30hz on the front left channel will be passed to the sub if using a crossover (small speaker setting), but a +3db bump at 30hz on the sub EQ will only be applied to the LFE channel source.



Correct.

Originally Posted By arbitrageur


I think "Sub Trim" on the "LFE Trim" menu is for managing the sub gain in modes where channels are summed below the crossover, as occurs with All Channel Stereo and with the "Bass Augmentation" modes.


Sub trim, in the LFE Trim menu, can be somewhat redundant as it affects the whole subwoofer channel - this allows you to use your main subwoofer channel trim to calibrate the system properly and then tweak for your personal tastes via the sub trim in the LFE Trim menu. This way you don't need to remember where the subwoofer trim should be set for proper calibration because you've tweaked it so many times for different content or sources. Assuming the system was channel balanced, you can just adjust the setting in the LFE Trim any time you wish and when you want to go back to calibrated, you would just zero it out.

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#97891 - 03/09/18 01:02 PM Re: 976 Dislikes or improvement/update wish list ! [Re: kiwiaudio]
Outlaw Ben Offline

Gunslinger

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By kiwiaudio


Thanks for asking them. Im betting the answer does not surprise any of us. All we are doing is giving Outlaw food for thought with their top-of-the-line processor. If it ever comes to be !
I do wonder why though, when its said they monitor these forums, that Outlaw doesnt pipe up and say so right here !!
I suppose they just let us all vent !


Because the forum is meant for discussion between Outlaw users, it is not the appropriate place for directing questions towards Outlaw. Questions for us should be directed to customerservice@outlawaudio.com . The forum is a spot where we try not to interfere; it is intended to give Outlaw users a place to interact with each other. We really only monitor for foul language and inappropriate usage. If we have major updates, we'll also post them here for our customer's convenience.

If I see a question that others have been unable to assist with, and I have time and the answer, then of course I am going to help out.

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