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#96423 - 03/23/17 04:19 PM RR2150 blew the tweeters in Outlaw LCRs
monkeyplasm Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 20
Loc: Tennessee
Bummer.

Ordered some Outlaw replacement tweeters but will want to have significantly more amplification headroom to avoid a repeat performance. I really wasn't pushing things all that hard, or for very long. Plus Outlaw doesn't have a deep supply of this spare part, nor I deep pockets.

Since the RR2150 has pre-outs I could just get a power amp instead of re-buying a whole receiver. Perhaps Outlaw 2200's (300 watts @ 4 ohms) but they are $350+ each channel.

I don't need more than 2 channels.

Any other suggestions that economically provide solid power and a lot more headroom than the RR2150?

Bonus question: What are you using to power your LCRs to healthy (not murderous) volume levels?

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#96424 - 03/23/17 05:20 PM Re: RR2150 blew the tweeters in Outlaw LCRs [Re: monkeyplasm]
rdgrimes Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 10/31/14
Posts: 45
Rule #1: Amps don't blow tweeters, amp users do.

Tweeters burning up is due to thermal load caused by either signal distortion, high levels, over powering or some combination of those three. In every case its a time vs temperature issue. High levels of 40KHz signals can do it too, which is sometimes the result of DSD conversion to LPCM without proper filtering.

IOW you don't get to blame the 2150 without first offering some detailed info about what actually took place. Repeating the same scenario with a different amp might have the same result, maybe even faster.

Clipping in an amp by itself can blow a tweeter if its pushed past the point of being sensible, but it takes some time to do that. Some speakers create their own dynamic compression at high levels, which means that pushing them harder doesn't increase the SPL. So all the above brings us back to rule #1.

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#96425 - 03/23/17 09:37 PM Re: RR2150 blew the tweeters in Outlaw LCRs [Re: monkeyplasm]
XenonMan Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2676
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
The LCRs are rated at 90 db at 1 watt 4 ohms with power handling up to 300 watts. The 2150 is capable of 160 clean watts into 4 ohms. You had to be driving them beyond 112 db to damage them with the 2150. At that level you would also likely be damaged. A more powerful dedicated two channel amp isn't going to keep you from doing it again.
_________________________
Music system
Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD
APC H15 Power Conditioner

TV System
Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv


Home Theater System
Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv
Harmony ONE
Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects
APC H15 Power Conditioner

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#96427 - 03/24/17 03:33 AM Re: RR2150 blew the tweeters in Outlaw LCRs [Re: monkeyplasm]
monkeyplasm Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 20
Loc: Tennessee
Thanks for the replies:

rdgrimes: Your reply is, unfortunately, what I expected. Your reply has all the appearance of a condescending windbag failing to be didactic in the slightest. However, on the chance you took the time to reply from a desire to be helpful or perhaps even of service, I'll continue below and welcome your continued participation. If not then kindly keep your thoughts echoing in your own head.

XenonMan: I agree that the numbers involved are troubling. The two products SHOULD play nicely together. In fact they HAVE played nicely together for quite a while and at infrequent times both louder and longer than today's abortive listening session.

Short background:
Luxman R115 (70 wpc @ 8 ohms, unknown at 4 ohms)
Outlaw RR2150 (100 wpc @ 8 ohms, 160 at 4 ohms)
Linn DMS (50-500 wpc)
Outlaw LCR (50-300 wpc)
LFM-1 EX

Sometime prior to 2010 the RR2150 replaced the Luxman still using the Linn speakers. Both sound good but different. The 2150's power feels like a solid and supportive platform (laid back, comparatively) whereas the Luxman feels like it's a powerlifter flexing it's muscles (more aggressive, comparatively). Despite their respective power ratings the 2150 is honestly not more powerful than the Luxman. I could turn the Outlaw up All the way on the Linns but going past (approximately) 1 o'clock on the dial offered marginal sonic increases and the sound started to take on a 'hard' character I've always associated with an amp at its limits. It was loud to be sure but the thing was giving all it had - it was tapped out. Doing the same with the Luxman and Linns it just got louder and louder - I don't recall it ever it tapping out at any point on the dial.

Big deal? No big deal as I don't often "crank it up" to those levels. Besides the RR2150 has neat things like bass management and USB input. However, it never seemed (to me) to have the "oomph" I expected (right or wrong) that it should have.

2011, Purchased LCRs (I got 3 to eventually use as l/c/r in surround sound - never got there) to use with the LFM-1 EX. Set up 2 LCR and sub. Used more for TV/movies and some for music too. Does great. Played it quite loud plenty of times. Moved the Linn DMS back to the Luxman to use for a computer sound system, thereby also keeping those monsters out of the living room.

Today: Turn on all the junk. Gonna get loud for a bit. Turned the RR2150 up to about 1 o'clock on the dial (not more than has been done before) and played a song, then played another, then played the first one again. Part way through the sound changed significantly and abruptly. Treble is gone and it sounds like music is being played from in a well (oddly aphasic sounding in a way). Total play time approx 10 minutes. The RR2150 was not particularly warm, let alone hot like it gets after long and loud sessions.

Moved one LCR to old system (Luxman) for testing: It still sounds like crap. Getting sound from both 6.5" drivers, none at all from tweeters (both speakers). Dragged out spare LCR and it sounds fine connected to the RR2150 now (I did NOT crank it up but played at normal volume).

Bummer.

Tweets are toast (

Possible causes (in my mind):
(1) LCR tweeters (and/or crossovers) were somehow defective and chose to die at the exact same moment. I deem this to be extraordinarily unlikely.
(2) LCR crossovers are damaged and tweeters are fine. Eh, could be but this is rather unlikely - as first suggested and subsequently rejected by Ben @ Outlaw.
(3) LCR speakers can't actually handle as much power as they are rated for. I think this is technically possible but not particularly likely as there would have been people squawking about it before now. Although my experience has been that tweeters almost always die before mids or bass, it's actually takes some appreciable effort and quite a long time to croak a speaker by using too much CLEAN power.
(4) RR2150 fed something to the LCRs that they couldn't handle. This seems more likely considering the simultaneous and identical failure mode for both LCRs.

What could have caused this? RR2150 was turned up too loud and produced a signal approaching square waves? This was Ben's supposition. This seems plausible despite me not noting the distortion one would expect from an overdriven amp (however this doesn't mean it wasn't there). At the same time I very much doubt I was anywhere near 112 DB, for crissake it wasn't THAT loud and nothing that hasn't been done before.

What was feeding the RR2150? My computer sends files (via Plex) to an Xbox, connecting to the TV via HDMI and then fixed-level TV output via L/R analog rca pair to the RR2150. I do this since the Xbox has only 1 output and the RR2150 has no video capability. It works OK enough for me.

Could the TV have overdriven the RR2150 input? Fixed level TV output went haywire (say 5+ millivolts perhaps) temporarily and then back to normal? Sure, but not very likely.

Could the song have been recorded at StupidHigh(TM) volume and thereby have the super compressed dynamic range of a potato? Sure, lots of retards have recorded that way. But alas, no it's not any higher than other tracks. Plus, if so it would have likely wrecked things on the first playthrough (remember, Song1, Song2, Song1 and then poof?).

If the RR2150 should not be able to overpower the LCRs then turning up the RR2150 all the way should not cause damage anyway. Yet turning it up (not all the way) did cause damage.

Ben and I discussed some of these thoughts and he and his engineer (Ben called me back after checking tweeter stock/prices and talking with his local tech) believe the RR2150 was just turned up too loud and it output a signal that damaged the tweeters in the LCRs.

Sigh. This means if I want to play occasionally crank it up and play loud (on the current speakers) then I need more/better amplification with a lot more headroom. Or heck, maybe the LCR really just can't handle the overwhelming power of the RR2150 ;-)

P.S. I've since played the same track on the old Luxman receiver (less power) and Linn speakers (which are low efficiency). I wanted to see if the track in question somehow has some crazy spurious information encoded which would kill anything when cranked up. I played the track several times in succession LOUDER than with the RR2150/LCRs. Sounded great, and NO DESTRUCTION ensued. The only difference (other than increased volume) was the bass output was somewhat less since the Linns can't compete with the LFM-1 EX. I think that means nothing here since the LFM-1 EX is not amplified by the RR2150.

P.P.S. So, while I absolutely do blame the RR2150 (I don't believe it performs to the level claimed) I also did NOT cry and demand some sort of compensation, a new RR2150, a different amp, new speakers, a new roof, or a new washer/dryer. I'm the one who cranked it up - I just think it should have been able to handle being cranked up. I bought the replacement tweeters Ben's sending out tomorrow so PLEASE just take a minute and mentally delete from your vitriolic thoughts all the heroic rhetoric in defense of Outlaw you've already got planned. Don't bother to actually type out your nascent diatribe.

P.P.P.S. Damn this has been a lot of words to both explain the situation and forestall the presumed replies and inquiries. In reading my original post I simply asked for some suggestions on power amps. FFS.

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#96428 - 03/24/17 09:21 AM Re: RR2150 blew the tweeters in Outlaw LCRs [Re: monkeyplasm]
Stephen B Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 214
Loc: East Texas
Do you have a multimeter? Since you will be pulling the tweeters anyway checking the DCR of the tweets gives a data point. Results of the tweeters DCR measurements can yield clues to what might have happened.

You have a spare tweeter in the third speaker, have you tried swapping it in place of one of the non working drivers?

From what you have posted I would tend to agree with Ben's diagnosis of an overdriven amp. While more power can yield greater headroom please remember that every 3db increase in spl requires double the power output from the amplifier. In your case going from 160 watts to 300 watts will yield slightly less than a 3db increase in spl.

Do your speakers have any type of hf driver protection? Are they fused or contain a polyswitch? I am not trying to rain on your parade here but based on your own comments it would seem you are at least partially responsible for the driver failures.

How do you have the 2150 set up related to eq, tone controls, and sub crossover?

If all you are interested in hearing are amp recommendations pay attention the the pre out voltage of the 2150 and input sensitivity of any amplifier you might consider. Output/Input variances can lead to over or under driven conditions.

An idea of budget is needed to make any suggestions. If your primary requirement is raw power the Crown PA amps provide big power for the buck and can be had dirt cheap on the used market. I do not like pro amps for home other than running subs use while others feel they are fine. YMMV

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#96429 - 03/24/17 10:54 AM Re: RR2150 blew the tweeters in Outlaw LCRs [Re: monkeyplasm]
Helson Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 283
Loc: USA
"(1) LCR tweeters (and/or crossovers) were somehow defective and chose to die at the exact same moment. I deem this to be extraordinarily unlikely."

In my experience, tweeters can either be blown immediately, or fail in increments. What monkeyplasm may have experienced is the final straw. The point where they simply quit altogether.

In my test bench set up, I've had tweeters in my speakers sustain short bursts of a loud transients from time to time, in one channel or the other, while repairing faulty equipment. What I've noticed is the tweeters were becoming weaker with each of these bursts and producing less and less output. Tests confirmed this in comparison with identical tweeters. Eventually they failed completely. I initially didn't notice 'til they got a certain percentage weaker.

"(3) LCR speakers can't actually handle as much power as they are rated for. I think this is technically possible but not particularly likely as there would have been people squawking about it before now."

Agreed. (about the "squawking before now", part)

"(4) RR2150 fed something to the LCRs that they couldn't handle. This seems more likely considering the simultaneous and identical failure mode for both LCRs."

I'm going to have to side with rdgrimes' Rule #1 on this.

The RR2150 has an analog mechanical volume control. you will reach a clipping point somewhere on the dial. This point could come sooner or later, depending on the level of the input signal.

I don't know if the Luxman utilizes an absolute volume, or a relative volume circuit.
The RR2150 uses an absolute. If the Luxman uses a relative scale, it most likely would not reach a clipping point even at the max setting.




Edited by Helson (03/24/17 11:21 AM)
_________________________
Main HT <> 976 <> 7200 <> Ultra-X12 <> sapphire ST2 mkII RF/LF <> sapphire SC center
sapphire ST2 mkII SBR/SBL <> sapphire SS SR/SL <> Verizon/DVR <> Vizio M70Q7 <> Oppo UDP-203 <> Amazon 4k Fire TV

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#96430 - 03/24/17 11:30 AM Re: RR2150 blew the tweeters in Outlaw LCRs [Re: Helson]
Stephen B Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 214
Loc: East Texas
Originally Posted By Helson


I don't know if the Luxman utilizes an absolute volume, or a relative volume circuit.
The RR2150 uses an absolute. If the Luxman uses a relative scale, it most likely would not reach a clipping point even at the max setting.




His Luxman uses a relative scale.

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#96432 - 03/24/17 12:17 PM Re: RR2150 blew the tweeters in Outlaw LCRs [Re: monkeyplasm]
Helson Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 283
Loc: USA
Thanks Stephen B.

One other issue I thought of while looking at monkeyplasms post...

I've experienced discrepancies with rated max power of different receivers or power amps when testing on my AP gear. My own fault, as
I realized, when I used a lesser power cord it lead to not being able to achieve the max power output listed, or anything close.

For example, if a device stipulated a 14 gauge power cord and I used a lesser cord, such as 18 gauge, I saw a significantly less available output capability than what I expected. In this case, about 25% less max power capability.

Not just that, but when I tried to push the unit in an attempt to reach the expected goal, the results were an exponential increase in THD+N, but not much in the way of an increase of max output power.

A change to the proper power cord, resolved my experience.
_________________________
Main HT <> 976 <> 7200 <> Ultra-X12 <> sapphire ST2 mkII RF/LF <> sapphire SC center
sapphire ST2 mkII SBR/SBL <> sapphire SS SR/SL <> Verizon/DVR <> Vizio M70Q7 <> Oppo UDP-203 <> Amazon 4k Fire TV

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#96433 - 03/24/17 12:39 PM Re: RR2150 blew the tweeters in Outlaw LCRs [Re: monkeyplasm]
Outlaw Ben Offline

Gunslinger

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By monkeyplasm


Ben and I discussed some of these thoughts and he and his engineer (Ben called me back after checking tweeter stock/prices and talking with his local tech) believe the RR2150 was just turned up too loud and it output a signal that damaged the tweeters in the LCRs.




Originally Posted By monkeyplasm


P.P.S. So, while I absolutely do blame the RR2150 (I don't believe it performs to the level claimed) I also did NOT cry and demand some sort of compensation, a new RR2150, a different amp, new speakers, a new roof, or a new washer/dryer. I'm the one who cranked it up - I just think it should have been able to handle being cranked up. I bought the replacement tweeters Ben's sending out tomorrow so PLEASE just take a minute and mentally delete from your vitriolic thoughts all the heroic rhetoric in defense of Outlaw you've already got planned. Don't bother to actually type out your nascent diatribe.


I suggested the possibility of the crossover because I have seen R or RC circuits, meant to tame the high end response of a tweeter, get damaged in personal design and testing endeavors. I am an AE and I did check with the tech who works on these and it has never been seen in this product. When we spoke, I tried to be as passive and non-confrontational as possible because no one likes to have "user damage" shoved down their throat.

To be frank, if the 2150 was at fault and was outputting rail voltage, more than just the tweeter would've cooked.

If you blame the 2150 because you believe it doesn't perform to the level claimed, you can see the 2150 easily exceeds what is claimed when independently spec'd out by Audioholics: http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/outlaw-audio-rr2150-receiver-review/measurements

Helson makes a good point about an under-rated power cord throttling the current; the distortion rises exponentially and power output at any given THD is significantly reduced.

In regards to searching for a power amp, I do agree with Stephen about checking on the input sensitivity of any amplifier you are purchasing, if you want to achieve maximum rated power.
For an input signal level of 1V, the pre-outs of the RR2150 will produce 2.7V output, max.
An input signal level of 500mV, the pre-out gain will be 1.5V max.
With an input level of 380mV, the pre-out gain will be 1.0V max.

A typical line level output of consumer gear will be roughly 447mV peak and 316mV nominal. So if you are feeding the RR2150 with the outputs from your TV, you would want to find a power amp with an input sensitivity of 1.0V.

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#96434 - 03/24/17 12:51 PM Re: RR2150 blew the tweeters in Outlaw LCRs [Re: monkeyplasm]
XenonMan Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2676
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
Rather than putting your good third tweeter at risk I would take a "bad" tweeter and sub it in the good third speaker and see how it plays at low volumes. That would tell you if its a bad speaker or the internal electronics. I also suspect that the failure was related to something the 2150 fed to the speakers. Have you tried the 2150 on another set of speakers at low volumes just to make sure it is not failed. An internal problem with the 2150 has to be ruled out but the way you feed the 2150 through your TV from the xbox from the computer has to present some possible failure scenarios since the source level is somewhat dependent on the TV volume. The TV audio system could be the weak link. Is it possible it went into overdrive and caused the 2150 to wreck your tweeters.

I did find some info on your Luxman that may shine some light on why it appears to play louder with less effort that the 2150. The link is here:
http://www.hifi-classic.net/review/luxman-r-115-419.html


"The dual power amplifiers can deliver high currents. Although rated for only 70 watts continuous output into 8 ohms (from 20 to 20,000 Hz with no more than 0.03 percent total harmonic distortion), they are also rated to drive 2-ohm loads at up to 270 watts per channel for short periods. The large power transformer and filter capacitance give the receiver a 3-dB dynamic headroom over its rated power output into 8 ohms."
_________________________
Music system
Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD
APC H15 Power Conditioner

TV System
Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv


Home Theater System
Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv
Harmony ONE
Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects
APC H15 Power Conditioner

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