Anyone know whether or when the 976 will be available? My 950 stopped working late last year and I've been waiting for the 976 release.

The update on January 24th said it would be available late spring. We were supposed to stand by for more updates in February but...NADA. They were in the process of beta testing so maybe something came out of that. Outlaw has been very tight lipped about these processors but the promised update is 3 weeks late at this point.

Please remember that today is the first day of Spring. Currently we are awaiting the HDMI certification. As soon as that is complete, before the end of the month, production will begin. Pending no final issues, everything is still on track for the Model 976 to be ready by the end of Spring.

XenonMan must be on an accelerated calendar

I was referring to the promised UPDATE which has arrived as of today.

What is involved in the certification process?

Do units have to be sent to every entity who's name ends up silk screened on the front panel? If so I could see certifications being a drawn out PITA.

Probably not for previously proven technology but for new items like Atmos and DTS/x or for some room correction systems it is likely a requirement that those systems get certed to perform the way they are supposed to. It should actually pretty straight forward as long as the tech is being used within the bounds of what it is intended for.

With only a few items to certify before production I wonder if Outlaw would release the 976 manual.

I'd guess not. If something ends up needing to be changed or if, for some reason, the certification should fail, they don't want to have copies with bad information floating around out there if it can be avoided. There may also be legal ramifications of releasing material claiming certifications you don't actually have yet.

Give us a manual with "DRAFT - Subject to Change", or something similar on all pages. (Preferably in the background like a watermark.) Easy to do in WORD and Acrobat - done it many times for preliminary document releases. If we are still 2 - 3 months from product release, give us Outlaw junkies something to muse over as we anticipate the big day and warm-up our Visa cards. OK - how about an update on the specs with details (i.e., the manual specs pages) and maybe a dozen Hi-Rez pics inside and out. Something? (Yes, as all good gear-heads young and old, we are exceedingly impatient.)

Some pix would be nice.

We've got nice front panel, back panel, interior and remote control photos.
I'd like to be the supplier of electrolytic caps to Outlaw's CEM!
Ben and Peter: have you heard of our embedded capacitance material?

Outlaws, no comments? No additional pictures or specs? Does that mean the 976 release in close at hand?

Well, they said Spring and we're only like two weeks in right now. They still have another ten weeks to meet the stated target. Put on the brakes there, pardner!

What you said Owl's Warder.

For all of the Outlaw ball breaking that has gone on for the past couple of years I get Peter being tight lipped.

We know the 976 exists so chill out and let the Outlaws do what they do best.

Anyone other than me happen to notice a pre/pro recently mentioned on these forums included 10 band PEQ?

Everything old is new again.

The 975 came out in 2012. That's over four years ago. About 18 quarters ago. So, if by "close at hand", you mean "within 10% of the time since the last release", yes, I'd bet it's close at hand.

I'm anticipating it, and have postponed a purchase for this purpose. But it's a long time to actually literally hold your breath. How close is "close at hand" for you? If you knew your life would cease in four months, would that feel "close at hand"?

If we can't get the 976 manual that hopefully describes how to best implement the 10 band PEQ maybe someone can post their experience using a PEQ in other products or a good link on how to take advantage of this feature.

Well, there is this thread over in the Tips, Tweaks and Tricks forum already discussing this. Seeing as you've posted a few times in that thread, you seem to already be aware of it, though. I think the bottom line is that at this point we just have to pull back on the reins a little and wait it out for specific details.

Yo!!! Ben! Pushing the second week of June and summer starts in a few weeks - give us some word. Manual? Beta copy manual with the caveats -- anything? Did something pop-up that will take another 3 to 6 months (e.g., not previously discovered bugs in the DSP chips decoder codes -- something? We know you guys are cranking, but are we going to see the 976 before Fall?

I'm gonna be in the market for a pre/pro in the next 3 months or so. I am between the model 976 and the MC-700. If one is available then and one isn't I will only have one choice.

I'm sure it'll happen just like they did with the Ultra X-13. Once it's ready to go we're going to get the release statement, the product page will go live, and it'll show up in the shop for purchase. I also think it will likely replace the 975's prominent ad position on the front page of the site. Stop sharpening the pitchforks and put out the torches; there's still a couple of weeks before spring is over!

OK guys I know this is the Outlaw forum, but how would you say the Model 976 and Emotiva MC700 stack up against each other on paper?

Not much paper to base an opinion on for now. If past performance holds true, I suspect the 976 will be a better piece than the MC-700. When the 975 came out I ordered both the 975 and UMC-200 to do an in-home comparison. The 975 had *much* better audio quality than the UMC-200 even after turning off the EQ in the UMC-200. In my experience Outlaw's focus has always been audio quality first.

The MC-700 has a nice feature set for the price, but I am willing to wait for the 976. One feature of the 976 I like is a full set of balanced outputs since my amps have balanced inputs. Just the inside pictures of the two show a markedly different approach. The 976 appears to have much more substantial power supplies than the MC-700 (much like 975 vs. UMC-200). Separating the power supplies for the digital and analog sections usually improves the sound. Also higher end pre/pros generally have more larger power supplies.

Audio quality means a lot to me as as I use my system for both stereo audio and HT.

Just my opinion based on past experience. We shall see when 976 is finally released how it fares.

Owl, trouble is when we base holding off a needed purchase on their planned date. They're well past the average Spring date. If they're still going to make Spring, it would take seconds to tell us that. If they're going to miss it by a few weeks, they should let us know that also so we can go with other plans.

Outlaw will not comment on whether they are going to be late or not. Spring is over in two weeks or so and at that point I suspect that there will be some comments.

That all makes a lot of sense and I actually agree. To my untrained eyes the MC-700 looks very empty inside and the 976 looks filled with all sorts of electronics. Of course there is a 300 dollar difference in price as well. We'll see, I'll wait to see both. Problem is, is this 976 ever going to actually come out?

Ya know what I kinda made up my mind to go with the 976. I'm not buying until November anyway. I'm sure it'll be out by then, professional reviews, and owner reviews out by then too. It really looks like a beast of a preamp/processor based on specs on paper.

Fellow Outlaws:

We know that you are anxious to get your hands on the forthcoming Model 976, and we are just as anxious to get it to you.

That said, given the date, it is obvious that it will ship a bit later than we had hoped. There is a continual battle to find the balance between pre-announcing new products, as we did for the Model 976 versus waiting to announce them until the are ready to ship, as we did with the RR 2160 and Ultra X13. Regardless, whenever we announce a new product it is very important to us that any new product ships only when it is ready, not before. We're not quite at that point yet for the Model 976

It's been said that it's "The first 99% is easy. It's the last 1% that is the hardest." That is a good summary of where we are. We have units under test that are completely functional and which deliver outstanding audio and video performance. We've completed work with Room EQ Wizard that is optimized for the Model 976. We have the parts staged and ready for production start. That's the "99%".

Unfortunately, there is that remaining 1%. There are a few remaining issues that have cropped up that we are simply not comfortable having in a production product. None, by themselves, are fatal. However, collectively they would prevent the Model 976 from meeting our expectations. Yes, it will take until after our goal of "before the end of spring" to work all of this out. Since some of these things are interdependent it is to say how long it will take, but it shouldn't be that long.

Again, thanks for your support, patience and understanding as we work to bring you the product you expect and deserve.

I know that I for one will continue to wait.
I have been tempted many times to throw in the towel and order the Emotiva XMC-1 but I have resisted and will continue to do so.
But if nothing has been released by the end of summer then I will have to move on I guess.

I'm waiting, no problem for me. I'm not buying till late November, its gonna be my Christmas gift. This is the processor I want.

I have no problem waiting, either. I've recently learned that it's time to "just update the kitchen and that whole area" around our house so there goes my potential disposable income for the foreseeable future. Goodbye new processor, hello painting, flooring, and new appliances! Ah well, it's not like I don't use those things, too.

Hopefully next year I can swing something! I was really hoping to get it in this year and make the most of potential resale value with the 975.

Edit:
By the way, thank you Outlaw Admin for the update!

Thanks for the update, Admin. I'm waiting patiently as you slog through that last 1%.

It is my understanding the certification process can be a royal pain in the rear and can take months to complete even when things go well.

Outlaw wants to come to market just as badly as everyone else.

Looking forward to the 976. I am an orginal Outlaw 950 owner and it was a good prepro for me at that time. I feel like the 976 will be worth the wait. I wish I could have Atmos in my apt. but I can't put in inceiling speakers of course so the 976 should work fine for me.

a choice of one is not a choice. It's a default.

Be patient. I'm confident the 976 is worth it. I was in heaven w/ the 975's SQ from a Rotel - still am!

Oh yeah I'm not going any where. I'm firmly in the 976 camp now. I'll be ordering one in late November, early December as my Christmas gift. I can't wait!

Hi all,
Peter Tribeman demoed the 976 for me the other week (the new re-mastered Sgt. Pepper album and other goodies)and it is almost ready to be released in the wild. It looks as good as it sounded and I hope to have my hands on one for a SECRETS of Home Theater and HiFi review before long.

It will be worth the wait! Hang tight...Peter is meticulous and will not let it go until it's well nigh perfect.

So it sounds like it will be worth the wait!!!!!

Gotta call it: "Myth." Certainly missed Spring, but it's also been a long time since any status at all.

I bought an alternative yesterday.

what did you buy?

The recent review by Jim Milton of the RR2160 in Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity clearly references the 976 -- http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/recei...eceiver-review/


Impatient folks can criticize the way that estimates of shipping dates are made but the fact is in today's consumer electronics marketplace it is increasingly common to have deal with production glitches. Even multi-billion dollar firms can't avoid -- https://www.macrumors.com/2017/08/01/apple-still-unable-to-meet-airpods-demand/
AND
https://www.androidcentral.com/editors-desk-google-horrible-supply-chains

If two of the most well funded firms ON THIS PLANET have issues I am willing to cut Outlaw, which even in the most generous estimate has a value orders of magnitude smaller, a whole lot of slack...

I agree with everything you said, but I also don't fault anyone for moving on at this point either. I am not buying till December as a Christmas gift to me, but if it ain't out by then, it probably ain't coming out at all. Only time will tell.

ditto

Yep. It sounds to me like it's very close to being released. I'm lucky in that I'm not really in the market, just keenly interested in seeing how well it's received on release. I might be tempted to upgrade if it ticks off enough boxes.

Wow, poseur much? It's not impatient to give up when they're this late and haven't been updating status... and when you're waiting to actually build the system.

For some context, the 976 was announced on 01/24/17. Try holding your breath for more than seven months, with no recent updates!

TCat, Since then we have talked about the unit a couple times. One update can even be seen on page 3 of this thread, dated June '17:

Thanks, Ben. Saved me from having to look that post up! That post and the more recent comment in the RR2160 review are the two biggest reasons I feel it's almost here.

Nobody faults you for pulling the trigger on something else, TCat. When you're ready, of course you're going to buy what's available. However, saying there've been no recent updates is not accurate.

On a side note, can we maintain some civility up in here? There's really no need for name calling.

Getting it correct right out of the gate is the most important thing.

I'm planning to get a 976 in December as I have said. Right now I'm using my older Yamaha receiver as the processor to control my Parasound amp. How much difference in sound quality will it be going to a dedicated HT processor over a receiver? I can't wait to see and read reviews of the model 976.

Depending on the vintage of your Yamaha and its abilities to translate codecs it could be a very noticeable difference.

My first Outlaw was the 970/7075 combo replacing a Yamaha HTR-5150. Granted the 5150 is at best middle of the road SQ but there was a noticeable improvement going to the 970 and THEN another noticeable improvement moving from the 970 to the 975. I would suspect the 976 would be even better than the 975. (at least 1 better, right?)

There have been rapid shifts in the some of the things that AV receivers do and the biggest driver of that shift is the increasingly complex encoding that have been adopted to make movies more immersive. That means that systems that were not capable of decoding discrete 5.1 sound tracks have been left in the dust compared those that do. The evolution of 7.1 and now object oriented sound tracks are further big advances.

The other factor is that the Digital-to-Analog chipsets evolve at about the pace of other computer technology -- that means not just better resolution of higher bit rate audio but improvements to things like the overall signal-to-noise levels, greatly enhanced resistance to artifacts of the digital conversion, and more features at lower prices. Those features and dropping prices makes it easy to incorporate things that once exotic like parametric eq. and similar enhancements.

Meanwhile the other things that receivers do, like tuning into broadcasts / internet sources, switching various components and providing amplification to drive speakers, has not really evolved nearly so much -- the start of the art for amplification arguably remains high current balanced designed like those offered by Outlaw and other firms. I know all about the topologies that are possible http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/amplifier-classes but the fact is for lots of reasons the differential drive amplifiers are hard to beat -- http://www.ati-amp.com/differential_drive_amplifier.php
You can argue that some streaming sources have proven to be more responsive to offering high bit rate content, but given how many people are attached to vinyl or CDs that is not a particularly compelling reason to upgrade.
The last part of the function of AV receivers, as relates to component switching, was once mundane but now complicated by things like the shifting standards for HDMI 2.#x and associated HDCP x.x and the associated headaches of 4k scaling / pass-thru. If I had to lay money on what "final tweaks" are giving the Outlaw team the most trouble it is almost certainly in that realm...

All that aside, the decision to "go with separates" is less about the dollars and cents of TODAY than the longer term satisfaction and flexibility -- for folks that will likely never care about swapping out any of their existing components it might not make sense to fret about the differences between separates and a receiver. For nearly everybody else, who likely will swap out amps, or displays, or speakers, or sources or perhaps even create multiple entertainment zones in their home the value of separates is much clearer -- you simply have more choices. Together with the boost to performance that one gets as the codecs and DAC advance as well as just the "Christmas morning" effect that many of us appreciate from upgrading the pluses of separates don't really need further justification.

Its a 10 year old RX-V663. I think it'll be a very noticeable difference. It decodes DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD so I really don't need much beyond that. Its does DD plus also.
I LOVE my Parasound amp man, that thing is clean, dynamic power for days!

Maintain the status quo until the 976 is out and has some reviews then decide.

Talk to me, babe. That was three months ago. At which point we were pointing out that you were missing the Spring date you announced in, what, January?

Let's try to be honest... it's been over eight months since you announced this, and you haven't been transparent on when it will be done. Sure, you've got the penniless white-knight fanboys who buy one item every 15 years and yet will defend you to with invective... but for those of us with actual coin, you aren't helping with the opacity.

I have moved on. But if you hurry or can actually be open about the status, I can pivot. Seriously though, you've got to learn what "lost opportunity cost" is. Basically, if monthly you can only produce X number of widget Y (in this case, 976), and you can sell your entire production each month regardless of glitches, there's zero benefit in delaying. If demand and glitchiness are more elastic, the equation is more complex up until you reach the point where your excess production capacity costs you too much.

You guys seem to be on the wrong side of this. Emotiva and Onkyo have proven it can have some bugs but be better than the competition and sell well... and you can fix the glitches in software, garnering even better "word" and status (especially if you used FPGAs, please tell me your team spent that extra $20 and used FPGAs!) despite the bizarre fact that these newly-renewed fanatics received slightly sub-par software.

This should be novel. Get it out or at least be transparent. This isn't how you make money.

Geez, you would have been apoplectic if you'd been around for the previous Outlaw pre/pro efforts! But in an earlier post you said you'd moved on and bought something else. I hope you are happy with your recent purchase.

Probably, which might explain their financial performance. I did say that, even in the above post... not sure how you missed it - first sentence of Paragraph 3. And I am decently happy... better form factor and more features at 2/3 the price of a 976/5000 combo... but I do suspect the 5000 would sound better. Everything is a compromise. Jobs, marriage, sound systems... everything.

"Talk to me, babe... Emotiva and Onkyo have proven it can have some bugs but be better than the competition and sell well..."
I, for one, don't want to be on the wrong side of a beta test with my purchase. I've had the 975 for quite some time now, three+ years, and its not given me many problems. Yes, the occasional times when I have to use a deoxidizing cleaner on the HDMI jacks, but that's a given with HDMI jacks.
When the 976 does come out, I want it to be in my system for at least as long, with no aggravating issues to put up with, other than the occasional HDMI jack cleaning.

Peter Tribeman has a pretty impressive record of longevity and independence. If others want to offer advice I'd hope they could back that up with their own credentials. For that matter, if I was comparing the relative relationships that Chief Outlaw Peter Tribeman has been able to foster, vs those of Emotiva's top guy, Dan Laufman, there is little doubt who is more widely admired... It is not that Emotiva is not a worthy firm to consider, but Laufman's efforts to control Sherbourne and Carver have both been rather less than successful...

Don't get me wrong, with Pioneer having to sell out to Onkyo and even Harman taking a huge buy-out from Samsung the world of AV is facing, "interesting times", but Outlaw's leadership has a darned enviable place. The difference between firms that walk the tight rope between success and failure often comes down to the little things and Outlaw has proven over and over that they get the little things right.

TCat, your last couple of posts are a light version of the type of backlash Outlaw used to get several years back and are the exact reason they hold things close to the vest now. There was a time when they shared the transparency you're demanding but when things beyond their control caused timetables or availability to change, people lost their minds and exploded onto the forum boards. It wasn't pretty and no amount of explanation was ever good enough for them. Hence, the Outlaws stopped being so open about what they have cooking and how close it is to being ready to serve.

Given that history, the fact they pointed to spring means they had every expectation of providing it then and things beyond their control prevented it. I guarantee you they're doing all they can to finish it up as nobody wants it moving out the door more than they do.

On a personal note, it'd be great if you could please maintain civility and stop with the name calling. These forums are generally a nice place to visit and disparaging comments don't add anything to the discussion. There's a great group of people on here that are pleasant and helpful, there isn't any call for insulting us. In my eyes (I won't speak for anyone else), it just makes you look like a bully throwing a tantrum and completely detracts from anything positive that you might want to contribute. Thanks!

Wow can we take it down a notch? We are arguing over a Home Theater processor and south Texas had a hurricane come through. I wish the 976 was out already, but lets not lose it over this. It'll be out, it'll be great with no bugs.

Plus, Oregon is on fire!

I say again this and what follows. "Patience is a virtue." A little history:

In the early '90s stared w/Carver. Upgraded to HK, pure analogue. Then, I believe, a BIG step up to Rotel - 900 series gear.

Later upgraded to newer non-HDMI Rotel 10 series 1068. Similar sound character, purportedly $1600 new. When, like the 900 series gear, channels started dying, I started researching a replacement.

Stumbled accross Outlaw. New, under $600 shipped. Hmmm. Raving positive expert reviews from 3 sources.

Seems ANY used, much less new* HDM-friendly Rotel is a little to a lot more. Rotel purported** to be entry level "high end" yet w/ a negative history of mild to wild HDMI issues that the "Rotel Loyal" is willing to tolerate.
* $3000!! ** read reviews comparing them to Krell, Levinson, etc

No brainer guys. I've enjoyed what I believe is much better SQ, flawless, albiet kinda slow switching, HDMI reliability over the current Rotel offerings at a fraction of the $!! As far as I'm concerned the new models (976* for me*) will get here when they get here and well worth the wait.
* I believe these 10 & 11 channel systems, while WOWing I'm sure, will have a very low WAF and will go the way of 3D. They are for privledged few that can swing dedicated space for them.

So hang in there.

Hey Everyone,

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I wonder if the 976 or the Atmos processors will have the new LCD display like the 2160 has. I know it's a small deal, but I think it would be a nice touch.

The announcement photos had the same display type as the 975, but I'm hoping the Outlaws will surprise us with an updated display. Then again, it might add some cost to the unit, so it might not be worth it...

+1 what Owls_Warder wrote on 9/1 @ 1:28pm.

And I agree with 975 destroyer on this: "I believe these 10 & 11 channel systems, while WOWing I'm sure, will have a very low WAF and will go the way of 3D."

Trouble is, best WAF I've run into ever was a sound bar. My massive towers with amps and boxes were second though, not because of discretion but because I put them in an impressive stack along with a Buttkicker amp and huge transducers in the sofa and under the floor... and she got addicted to showing it off. No kidding, the first time she really felt them, she said, "Wow! I wonder how these would feel with a movie that goes Bwam shakka wah wah!" We never watched those kind of movies.

There is certainly an evolving appreciation for the value, in every sense of the word, for more advanced sound tracks. In my own home the decision to upgrade the system that is most frequently used adjacent to our kitchen was driven by appreciation for the impact of what was in the "man cave". My wife is not really a "tech head" but she appreciates that listening to even more "family entertainment" type movies like the Harry Potter / Fantastic Beasts is more engrossing with immersive sound than getting by with the flat panel built in tiny speakers or even a sound bar. While we choose a combination of in-ceiling and surface mount speakers that had much to do with not wanting speaker cables lying about for pets or guests to trip over.

I suspect that the kinds of decorating that is more common these days is also a factor in what sorts of designs are offered from the nicer speaker firms -- the footprints and range of colors is such that folks need not worry about anything being overly intrusive.

I'd also suggest that with the explosion of things like Soul Cycle and other work-outs where music at a high volume is part of the experience there has been a shift in what is culturally acceptable -- it is not just freaks that wanna "hang out with the band" but a more gender balanced fan base for even the loudest music. The mix of consumers, from across all incomes / genders, who've come to understand that tiny little speakers connected to even the nicest cell phone are not as capable of good sound as something with more volume is shifting the "acceptance factor".

Of course there are other issues that also need to be considered -- people are generally renting longer in more areas, which makes in-wall/ceiling gear a harder sell. The average amount of space devoted to the TV itself has gone up quite a bit, with 50" now on the small side of things -- that leaves less floor space for tower or stand mounted bookshelf speakers (though either set-up can have very nice Atmos experience, that also typically means cable management issues...). More parents seem to worry about that sort of thing than anything else...

" Bwam shakka wah wah"
Now that begs for a detailed explanation ;-)

Just bought a new Sony 930E 4k TV and really really want to hook it up to the Outlaw 976 for 4k thru put. Is the 976 happening this year? Does anyone have a gut feel or inside info on this? The waiting is so hard.

At this point, I'd say they're targeting the holiday shopping season. Unfortunately, we don't know what that last 1% is that's holding up release so it's really anybody's guess.

I would love to have a 9 or 11 channel system with Atmos but it is just not practical for me being in a one bedroom apt. That is why I am so interested in the 976. It would suit my needs for now. By the way, I do have quite a number of 3D blurays and I continue to buy them whenever I can. I hope they don't go away completely. The last 3D bluray I bought was Passengers and it looks fantastic on my LG Oled. The 4K looks very nice as well. Here's hoping the 976 will be out by the end of the year. I know Outlaw wants to release a quality product.

Yeah. Easter.

So this has me curious... how much power are you going to pump in that apartment? I have a decently large space and rather inefficient bipolar towers, so I was waiting (gave up) for the gobs of clean power from the 5000, but in a smaller space, wouldn't a Marantz NR1508 be a better choice? It's small, has sufficient clean power for that space, and since you won't be pushing its limits, the integrated amp should be indiscernable, no? Or is your experience different?

So this has me curious... how much power are you going to pump in that apartment?

I don't need anymore than what I have already which is an Emotiva A700 amp. My living room is between 1500 and 2000cft and that amp is plenty for me but I don't usually play movies at reference level. Just a level that is comfortable for me.

There is more to be gained from having plenty of headroom with modestly sized speakers in a normal sized room than most folks realize -- http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/headroom/headroom.html

I agree with 975 destroyer that the 9.x and 11.x setups will be similar to 3D. They will suck a lot of $$$ but the effects will be just a passing fad. The studios will make more $$$ when they convert the older movies to object oriented formats and sell them yet again. The manufacturers obviously make more $$$ when they offer the latest and greatest gizmos to take advantage of all the new tech. Look at how the Beatles music has been repackaged and resold to the public over and over again. Many of the 70s and 80s bands are re-racking their music to pull even more $$$ out of our pockets. This all techno-wizardry and really is just a marketing ploy.

Its been a while again, any news from the outlaw world on the 976?

@J.H., you do realize it's been eleven days since the last post and EIGHT months since the announcement. If you care WHEN it will happen, it's not worth it. Either you're a member of Outlaws-Forever, in which case you'll wait, or you have a life. But you can only pick one.

What?

Well with that attitude, goodbye Outlaw 976. I'm gonna upgrade all my speakers now. Good job with that post. I will not be buying this processor now.

Waiting forever for a new processor from outlaw is what makes you a member of Outlaws-Forever, I guess. Way back before the 975 was offered there was a series of Outlaw processors that were on the drawing board but never made it to the street. The 997/998/978 were a little ambitious at the time and technology was moving too fast for the little guys to keep up. Peter has tried to keep the Outlaws in the loop as to progress and problems but it is a cut throat industry where even the bigger companies are being swallowed whole by competition. Small companies have to rely on loyalty and excellent customer service to stay in business.

Explain to me in a way I'll understand: upgrading speakers [to/from what] instead of buying 976.
what are you looking* at instead*?

Well if you have A-holes on here with attitude that guy had, forget it. Instead of spending my money on the 976, I'll upgrade my speakers instead. I'll just keep the Yamaha I'm using for a processor longer and they can keep the 976. I'll start my speaker upgrade with 900 bucks saved on the processor. They just lost a sale because of the "outlaws-forever" club that I wasn't invited into. And no I have no intention of joining any way. I wasn't looking at any other processor.

Sheesh...

The pace of change for audio gear is NOT linear -- there are LOTS of really excellent speakers that were made when Bill Clinton was in office, no matter if you goal is two channel or seven ++ channels of surround sound well cared for speakers from the 1990s or earlier that might work extremely well...

Amps have evolved a bit, with a variety of things to increase the dynamic range, drop the noise floor to absurdly low levels and deliver lots more "watts per dollar". A small number of really well built amps that maybe 30 years old can still crank it out, but most folks are better off with amps that won't throw off enough heat to melt an iceberg...

When it comes to pre-processors for home theaters I suppose there are some folks trying to get by with stuff that does not have current HDMI or HDCP but they are really limiting themselves. The newer codecs that include things that are much more immersive make "movie night" at home rival some poorly laid out commercial theaters. You don't need to have a mansion with butlers to appreciate things like the ability to play music from a personal device like a phone on a multi-zone home system with maybe some speakers permanently wired up for outdoor entertaining area or one's kitchen, where many gatherings both casual and more formal are centered these days...

It is no secret that with things like Atmos there is now greater than ever importance on having similarly voiced speakers. The challenges of upgrading speakers piecemeal can have less than optimal results -- even with the most sophisticated ARC system the "match" than can happen after digital filters is rarely as satisfying as when starting out with speakers that are harmonious.

For folks who for whatever reason are in currently in need of gear the Outlaws are authorized sellers of Marantz -- the pricing on the 7703 is quite attractive either standalone or paired with any combination of robust Outlaw amps designed and / or built in cooperation with the highly respected staff of ATI.

Please don't let TCat get under your skin. He's a new forum member that just joined in March. He's only got 14 posts and most of them are either trolling or bashing other forum members. I've called him out for his aggressive posts a couple of times because that's not the community we have here, nor is it the one we want to foster. The club he mentions isn't a real thing; it's his way of slighting members willing to wait for Outlaw's processor. Those of us that have used their products in the past are pretty loyal as the price to performance ratio is incredible. I am guessing he hasn't had that experience yet so doesn't understand our mind set.

You've been a forum member for a long time, J.H. I'm sure you have noticed that the vast majority of us are happy to help and are very friendly! We're doing our best to keep it that way!

Well if he is an annoying troll, he should be kicked out.

Annoying... to some. Troll, no.

I do understand the acoustic benefits, but the company's lack of updates and wildly-incorrect release dates were extremely frustrating to me. And the response to that, here, was generally in the "White Knight" form of "You just don't understand", rather than of "Hmm... yeah, that is pretty bad, what's with that?" or similar.
Owl is correct; I was using the term "club" in the same way I used "White Knight" a few sentences ago... I'm not aware of any blessings and bestowing of swords. My point was this...

Read the entire thread, along with the 976 Anticipation Thread. All of each. The statement in January was "Spring 2017", which initially people (perhaps optimistically) expected to be in middish-Spring.

It's now Autumn. Summer is gone. And there hasn't been much status or updates. Yes, a dribble of perhaps two messages. But nearly nothing. Meanwhile, not Outlaw's problem, but for example, I actually moved in March. So for me "Spring" was a relevant timeframe; waiting through June knowing an end is in-sight is radically different than, more than six months later, still having vague, but unmet, promises.

Now, back to the diehard-loyalist (for which internet shorthand is "fanboy", but to sound more respectful I'll avoid the diminutive) responses, versus, for example, a disappointed and therefore annoyed consumer who was actually waiting to spend the money...
The dominant one was, "This happens all the time in the electronics industry."
I've spent most of my life in that and related fields. No, no it does't. But here's a similar example.
Anova is the dominant start-up sous vide company. Sansaire actually sort-of innovated first, but Anova was almost immediately right there, and kept improving while Sansaire didn't.
In June 2017, Anova started pre-selling the Nano cooker... much like a self-run kickstarter. Pre-orders were expected to begin shipping in October. Last week I received an email that it wouldn't ship this year, with three options, including one of switching to their current flagship model, which is a $30 discount from what Amazon charges and about $60 off their MSRP.
There is a difference, of course. Anova took money. But there's another difference... they did this well before October started. Outlaw updated us well after Spring ended. And then hasn't kept us updated.

If Outlaw really has no idea whether the 976 will ship in a week or in three months, it's hard to put faith in them. If, in May, they had no idea that they were at least two months from shipping, well, ditto. Regular updates wouldn't kill them, and might have kept the excitement alive, but more importantly, I could have time-budgeted and, for example, purchased a cheap throw-away Denon receiver for a few months while waiting. As it is, anyone who has faith that the 976 will ship in, say, six weeks either has inside information or perhaps should speak to a professional... in a non-electronics field.

Should you wait? Hey, I still believe the product will be amazing. If you don't need it, but merely want it, sure. And since you've mentioned repeatedly that you won't buy it, regardless, until near Christmas-time, you already are committed to waiting at least another several months. Heck yeah, get the best unit out then, and if the 976 is out, I'm sure it will spank the Emotiva.

You also, BTW, said six weeks ago... " I believe it will be out very soon." The question is... do you still believe that?

When this processor hits the market, and after some reviews and customer comments, I'll probably pick one up. I just hope that it sounds good enough to put my current processor into retirement. After having spent a few months with the 950, there were a few quirks that I hope get changed with the 976. First and foremost for me is input control and display. I hope that the 976 has the ability to rename inputs via the setup menu and have it displayed in the front window.

If there's to be beta testing, I'd be willing to take part. Bottom line, I can wait.

I wonder if Outlaw is working on their upcoming object based prepro at the same time they are working on the 976. I previously mentioned that the 976 would be the one for me since I saw no way I could do Atmos(using on or in-ceiling speakers) in my apartment, but I am now thinking about waiting on their Atmos prepro because I ordered some Atmos enabled speakers that I am going to try out next weekend. If I have success with them, then I may just wait on the Outlaw object based prepro or even consider the Marantz AV7703 which Outlaw is selling. If I don't have success with the Atmos enabled speakers then the 976 would be my choice.

That makes lots of sense. Fact is there are some very nice up-firing Atmos speakers as well as add-ons (including a pair from Atlantic Technology...) that are absolutely perfect for many apartment dwellers. Folks should not have any reluctance about using up-firing Atmos speakers in situations where they are appropriate -- that generally covers homes and apartments with normal ceiling height & construction where the up-firing speakers can be placed atop floor standers / bookshelf units on stands...

I suspect that much of the tech for the 976 is similar to the design for the "object pre-pro" but the Outlaws have enough experience to hold their cards close to the vest when it comes to specific manufacturing details, as prior efforts have steps on too many toes...

Thanks for a thoughtful post, TCat! It's nice to finally see where your frustrations are coming from. I can certainly understand, given your situation, why you're dismayed by the lack of communication from the Outlaws.

As I (and others) have mentioned before, there was a time when they were much more open about what was happening and what they anticipated for release schedules. However, after one particularly nasty bout of problems caused a previous processor to be delayed a few times and then scrapped, the ensuing backlash caused them to change to a much more closed off approach. If you look at their product announcements and releases since that time, they have been pretty much right on. They announce, provide a date within a couple months, and then start shipping on time. The fact that the 976 hasn't met this pattern suggests to me that there is a completely unforeseen issue that has cropped up.

Now to take your position, yes, I agree it'd be awesome if they'd fill us in on what that delay is, or at least when it will be resolved. They seem to still be a bit gun shy, though and having been around for that fallout, I can't really say I blame them. Personally, I think they swung too far back on the pendulum from transparent all the way to brick wall. It'd be nice if they can find a middle ground that we can all live with, maybe a nice wooden fence with some missing knotholes we can peek through to see inside the corral.

All of that said, I understand where they're coming from and know that this is the way they operate. I accept the situation and my expectations are tempered accordingly. I freely acknowledge that's easy for me to do since I'm watching from an interested position vs. a need position, though.

+1 Yes, the Outlaws are gun-shy after the bashing received from missing out on the 978 (?). They were bullied out of their China outsource mfgr by a much larger company that also was developing pre/pros. After missing Estimated ship dates (which fans self-interpreted as Promised ship dates)and then having to cancel the product, the backlash Owl's_Warder alludes to was stinging. And, as has been pointed out repeatedly, The Outlaws care about customer loyalty, trust and service, so they "...swung too far back on the pendulum..."

Outlaws: time for beta testing?

I don't have a lot of confidence about this processor ever coming to the market after reading the 4 or 5 posts.

I'm of the impression that beta testing was already done? When they announced a spring ship, I figured they were just implementing the fixes on things that showed up in beta and maybe ironing out any last minute licensing issues. Given that the product was much closer to market than the scrapped pre/pro, I'm confident the 976 is going to come out, J.H. I'm hopeful for the holiday season but only the Outlaws know for sure.

tick - tock -- tick -- tock -- tick tock -- and the faithful wait -- yes we wait

Thanks for your input on this subject. I am really excited about getting Atmos to work for me but not getting my hopes up too much. I have a rather small living room(13.5 x 14ft) with a standard 8ft flat ceiling. It would really be cool if the Outlaw object based prepro had a room correction system included. It will be hard to give up Audyssey in my Marantz but at least the Outlaw will have a PEQ with it.

I was trying to find a post about the pre-pro being 99% done some time ago, with just that pesky 1% left to hurdle, but I'm having trouble locating it. and please don't tell me its an earlier post in this thread.:)
Anyway I'm still hopefully waiting. My 975 is still going well, but I need to set up my system for full 4k. Don't think I'll be doing immersive, but I won't say never.

Yup, earlier in this thread. Should have looked here first.

Would you want pork or chicken before (160-165 internal temp) it was ready? The finishing touches on a sub or RR2260 pale next to getting ALL of an AVR's or prepro's DSP bug-free.

Hang in there, the "Destroyer"

False choices. You have more choices.

Would you want raw chicken or a 5 Guys (or Shake Shack) Burger? Sheesh, go with the burger.
BTW, you don't need that internal temperature. Sous Vide can give you better food at lower temperatures... but you hold it there longer. Like smoking.
Trouble here is, it's not "poisonous meat or not". We have choices:

• Wait an indeterminate amount of time for something already way overdue, that may or may not ever come out.
• Get a nearly-identical, possibly buggy version at a lot less money from a competitor
• Buy a decent receiver and get more functionality, perhaps with less fidelity but close enough that nearly nobody can tell, for a lot less money
• Buy said receiver and, eventually, upgrade to an Outlaw amp while using said receiver's pre-outs

The only choice that will kill you is to eat the raw 976.

I'm waiting for the 976, as I've said, my 975 is still working great and I'm not the type to upgrade every two or three years. So, when it does hit the market, hopefully for this holiday season, it will have been about four years with my current processor. Plus, I recently bought a 4k TV and want to get my whole system into the 4k scene.

I don't want any "buggy version" for a processor. I want it to work great right out of the box. I really don't want to be behind my system when I can be in front of it, entertained.

I don't want an AVR. I switched to separates a while back and have enjoyed the night and day difference in SQ.

I already have an amp. So, for me, my only choice is that I'm content to wait for now. I believe them when they said only the 1% left to hurdle. Probably something they couldn't foresee when they made the announcements earlier this year.

Truthfully Helson I think the 1% was fully foreseeable to the Outlaws. The big three in the processor market do incremental changes which might make the process easier.

From the 975 to the 976 is a big jump when one considers the dacs and decoding involved.

As I have no rush to jump to 4K my 975 still works for me. Add in the White Instruments paramedic eq's I am already on board with what the 976 has to offer.

We know the 976 exists in the wild but without the certifications it is pointless for the Outlaws to market. I could not possibly care less about video processing preferring straight pass through in that regard. Audio is everything to us.

I, for one, would like to see the 976 hit the street just to get the threads back on the positive side. While I am disappointed in the lateness of it, I fully expect Outlaw to release it before the end of the year. If anyone NEEDS a new processor right now because of some perceived flaw in their system, go for it. There are plenty of solutions out there to temporarily get you the new codecs without getting a new processor.

Much of the time, when you're debugging, solving one problem can lead to two more popping up. So, that's why I think they didn't foresee...
From the 975 to the 976...the 975 can handle lossless formats like Dolby True HD and DTS HDMA. I would think the bigger difference between the two would be the HDCP 2.2 from 2.0. But, that should have been resolved long ago.

Oh snap! The 976 has it's own forum now! I feel a release date announcement coming!

Grrrreat!

Please see this post regarding an update on the 976 status.

Awesome news! I'm looking forward to hearing how people like it! I'm still trying to decide if I "need" to upgrade my 975 and whether or not to wait and go for the flagship model.

Right on time!

My guess was holiday availability. Hope for no production snafu's.

Fingers crossed......

Well, well, well. I have been skeptical to cautiously optimistic regarding the 976 and this is very exciting news. I've got a green light to spend a bunch of money from the household budget to upgrade the family HT. That includes a new TV/monitor (55" or maybe a 65" LG OLED), new BluRay player (OPPO UDP-203), new Apple TV, a new Harmony remote, ISF calibration of the new TV and lastly the 976. All this hinges on the availability of the 976. I think I am going to begin studying the REW guide with the hope the 976 manual thoroughly describes how to use REW to optimize the 976.

BTW, I read on DIYAUDIO that there's a new REW version and supposedly much improved.

I can't wait for the pre-order link to show up!

Wow getting close. I was dead set on getting one, but I'm kinda thinking of starting to upgrade my speakers from Def Tech to Ascend Acoustics. That has NOTHING to do with the delay. I wasn't buying till December anyway. Just something I got in my head to upgrade speakers to much more high end. What to do?

Always hard to assess what expenditure is the “next logical step” for an AV system...
Definitive Technology has several tiers of speakers at different price points, several of which would be extremely hard to say are “inferior” to similarly priced options from companies like Ascend Acoustics...

Depending upon current rcvr or prepro & amp the 976 and appropriate Outlaw amp might be more of a “step-up”...

I would be sure to audition any new speakers against the old reliables unless there is something mechanically wrong with the current setup. While many AV fans are convinced that a new amp or pre-pro will improve the sound it is much more likely that speakers will change the way your system sounds to a much larger degree. As long as the amp has enough oomph to get the speakers to nirvana levels all else being equal the rest is ones and zeros. The source material also has some effects especially in the analog domain. I have always considered that new processors are only needed if some functionality is gained that cannot be ignored and is must have. All things considered, spend the most money getting the best speakers you can afford and an amp which can drive them.

I agree somewhat with your comment. However,it has been my experience with a multitude of pre/pros that they have their own sonic signatures. If you compare them with the same amp and speakers,there are differences to be heard.

I have always advised folks to buy the best speakers they can possibly afford, then upgrade other system components as time and budget allow. With OUTLAW, we have a top-line pre/pro for a low price - a very good thing indeed.

I was curious to see that in the announcement there was no mention of the more advanced Dolby Atmos/DTS-X Pre-Pro that was originally scheduled for arrival around the same time the 976 is now going to going to become available. Since I am more interested in that model, any updates on that?