https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/receivers/avrx4300h

They already have a relationship with D&M Holdings and this could potentially get them back to being credible in the processor/receiver game. Of course, that's if D&M is willing to share....just strip out the amps and HEOS cruft.

I've already reserved one.

Best,

+1 All the features except HEOS - no need for it to be a whole-house broadcaster - too many schemas out there already. No amps of course.
Well, I've been wondering when someone would start a new Outlaw pre/pro dialogue.
Ben, Peter - are you close to giving us an update?

Outlaw's new pre/pro should have at least a 7.1.4 channel output, which Denon's 4300H doesn't. Maybe you mean the Denon 6300H.
Without a newer room correction that the Audyssey Denon uses, it won't be competitive with the upcoming Emotiva.

Emotiva only has a slightly better record than Outlaw on delivering "upcoming" anything. I prefer to live in the here and now. Call me crazy.

I have not heard the newest offering from Emotiva but tried their previous (non Atmos) unit and found the SQ lacking compared to the 975. A friend owned the Emo unit so I borrowed it while he was on vacation then loaned him my 975 when I was gone for a week. We both found the 975 to have the better sound quality, him to the point of selling the Emo and buying an Outlaw unit.

Others feel differently but I find room correction to be of no benefit in this house.

Effective acoustic room treatment would be better than electronic manipulation of the music wavefronts IMO.

I agree 100%. I do everything possible to tame the room before giving thought to anything else. If we are creative room treatments do not have to cost an arm and a leg. Instead of the acoustic foam pannels costing hundreds of dollars each great effect can be had by hanging rubber backed blackout curtains at reflection points.

Adding circuitry to the signal path is always a last resort afaiac. Keep the signal path as minimalist as possible using the highest quality parts the price point will allow.

Absolutely the proper design philosophy for audio mfgrs (too few of them follow it).

We can never go wrong when we paraphrase Nelson Pass.

I agree that tasteful room treatments should be the first line of defense (the crazy stuff need not apply since I still have the wife test to pass).

With that said, I find a quality room correction system to be an absolute must for home theater and I've found it to be quite useful for stereo listening as well. I wouldn't even consider going back to a system without it and that's coming from a former adherent to fire bottle everything. Technology marches on.

The 975 doesn't come remotely close to meeting my basic requirements for a home theater processor. The oft-discussed and cancelled processors dangled hope that Outlaw would get it together. I think that ship has sailed. So here's hoping they can partner with a company with serious R&D muscle and that has shown they can deliver the goods. That seems to have worked for them on the higher end amps and subs in the past.

Best,

Don't forget the crazy little clocks.

Lots to agree with but some assumptions / suggestions are a leap...

I think that anyone who doubts the value of high quality automated DSP & equalization in a home-theatre oriented world where the target of upwards of dozen speakers is the goal is completely out of touch. 975 might still sound pretty good but it is a dead-end.

Outlaw is run by a guy with enough experience in the business to know this and beyond the issues that they have shared Peter is also somebody that won't try to sell something that would frustrate / disappoint customers. If that means he has to work with the suppliers and technology license firms at their pace he has proven he'll do whatever it takes.

That said you are kidding yourself if you think because "Outlaw" the online store has any clout with D&M to partner on developing anything. Fact is Peter almost certainly sells few units in a whole year than other more "sales oriented" stores sell in a month.

I also know enough about audio electronics, general digital electronics, and especially software development that in a world where Object Oriented digital sound products are the norm it is laughable to call any of the required circuitry "cruft". You end up sounding like some British member of the House of Lords who fondly remembers having a Land Rover on safari that ran on leaded gas with a carburetor and test drives a Tesla: "Splendid ride Mr. Musk but you'll simply have to drop the cruft of auto-pilot and touchscreens before I'd consider it...". I'm flabbergasted by folks who fail to see that the "power" of advanced pre-pro for home theatre is in minimizing noise floor, extended headroom, accurate digital-to-analog conversion. That is NOT cruft anymore than the whole advanced electric power train / battery tech is what makes a Tesla desirable.
Folks with an outdated notion of pre-pro being tweaked with hand selected capacitors and coil ought to go shop for the audio equivalent of carbuerated Rover, pretty sure when you hear the noise you'll remember what is really "crufty"..,


Beyond that, Peter has previously seen what happens when "contract manufacturers" get nasty grams from their larger "partners" and that sort of thing means he has to walk a tightrope in making something that delivers value / is attractive to customers while keeping his status as an authorized Marantz seller.

I am pretty sure that Peter will not disappoint anyone. As long as he runs this business I know he'll do all he can to be honest with customers and ensure he keeps the lights on!

As far as the HEOS circuitry I fail to see how it is essential to anyone except those who desire whole house wireless systems. Cruft would appear to be an accurate description IMHO. As far as Peter not disappointing customers that ship sailed years ago with the 997/998/978 series of processor failures. When Outlaw announced the Phoenix it would have been leading edge in the Atmos/DTS war. Two years later it is way behind the eight ball. The 975 was a value oriented stopgap but it is also an entry level device and without the bells and whistles that are standard stuff on similarly priced processors and receivers. I don't anticipate the new processor at all anymore because it is so late. Still, I would be interested when I replace my current setup because the customer service is so good.

I don't believe the Outlaw Atmos/Dts:X pre pro is behind any eight ball. Let's remember there's still some avr's & pre pros out there that still haven't gotten their DTS:X firmware download. I'm really curious what Outlaw has cooking because most of the Atmos/Dts:X pre pros out there are basically avr's minus the amp section, while the Outlaw was designed strictly as a preamp. Plus, I understand the upmixers are really good, but there's not exactly a ton of content in the immersive audio formats so far.

While I understand the whole "We're waiting for software, it's out of our control" thing, at this point the hardware of the new pre/pro should be etched in stone. I'd like to know some basics like: what type of room correction (if any...), how many HDMI inputs/outputs, what kind of DAC's, etc. I sure hope an update is on it's way soon.

It is behind the eight ball, because it is 18 months late and it doesn't even have a name/number yet. The original announcement in mid 2014 looked pretty good but...everyone else has come out with setups for 7.1.4 and the Phoenix was slated as 5.1.2 with no announced room correction. Outlaw hasn't given out any info, so unless they have redesigned it, it won't be the groundbreaking piece of gear we were expecting. Depending on the $$$ it may not be competitive with the rest of the market. UHD TV and HDR displays require SOTA hardware and firmware and the industry may just be moving too fast for smaller companies to keep up.

You are incorrect...according to the Outlaw announcement, the "Phoenix" as you call it will be 7.2.4

My Bad. If anyone has the original announcement please post it.

TL5 wrote: " I'd like to know some basics like: what type of room correction (if any...), how many HDMI inputs/outputs, what kind of DAC's, etc. I sure hope an update is on it's way soon."

+1 If software is the holdup, I'd think a hardware announcement would be doable at this time.

After a string of high profile mulligans preceded by pre-release hype, I wouldn't hold your breath. If the device is released at all, I'd expect it to make an appearance when it is available for sale without the tease. The software IS the product.

I still expect them to release a new pre at some point. I'm also willing to bet they're using the delays to add as much of the current hotness as is practical. I think the Outlaws will surprise a lot of folks when the Phoenix takes flight.

That said, I don't blame them one bit for being tight lipped about this and any other projects they may have brewing. The backlash in the past was pretty spectacular.

I remember that when Outlaw announced the original 997/998/978 processors with an expected date of release there was a lot of enthusiasm for the new processors, same as for the Phoenix. The issue begins to fester when the release date comes and goes with no further information. Once the processor is very late people tend to get disinterested and start griping about no news, Outlaw offers another processor at a good price from Onkyo or Marantz. People then buy a processor and are out of the market for several years until the next great thing comes along (think HDMI, 3D, HDCP 2.2, HDR).

Ritz2: software IS a major part of a pre/pro these days, but correctly designed PCB's and component implementation is important.
All: a hardware update would tell us loyal customers that Outlaw is still working the project. I certainly don't expect a target release date announcement.

Given that they are likely using merchant silicon for everything (probably a good assumption, but you never know), it's a matter of sticking with a reference design for the hardware and then layering on the software. The hardware is likely the least of their worries and wouldn't really tell me anything about how far along the process is. Color me jaded. I would be interested to see them pull a rabbit out of their hat and bounce back from the previous oopses. Time will tell.

+1

+2 If Outlaw isn't currently working on a new pre/pro I'd like to know that so I can get better acquainted with the current crop of pre/pros should my 990 die or I decide I want to take advantage of new features (e.g. HDMI )

Well, they've been giving us updates January-ish the last couple of years so I expect that's when we'll hear the next state of the union on the Phoenix. It'd be nice to hear something sooner than that, though, especially if it's to be of the bad news variety in the form of "no real news yet" or "project cancelled". That would let folks that have been holding off maybe take advantage of any deals that might catch their eyes over the holidays.

+1

I realize I am in the minority here but I would still prefer to have the eq in a seperate device. It seems silly to me to have to pay for room correction every time I upgrade.

As an example if I wanted to add eq to my 975 I set the outboard eq in the rack with a single HDMI out from the 975 to the eq. Run from the eq to the amps. Use the sync in the 975 to correct any issues or do a simple HDMI passthrough the eq with the sync correction built in there.

I had once suggested Outlaw partner with White Instruments to revamp their Paramedic line for this purpose. Either 24 or 48 bands with adjustable iso centers should be about as future proof as one could get. With 24 bands one could eq multiple zones so the single unit could provide room correction for any system in the home.

I wonder how much of a market there would be for this device.

Good question Xenon. There is a stand alone unit running the Dirac Live processing so someone thinks there is a market. The big question in my mind is what are the costs associated with adding top level room correction to a pre/pro or AVR?

Someone with more knowledge than myself would have to chime in on this but it seems reasonable to me that if a person bought one of the new OPPO (or any other top level brand) 4k players and had outboard room correction the 4K player could become the media hub and volume control eliminating the need for a new 4K pre/pro all together. Some sort of pre/pro, AVR would still be necessary for multi zone capability and quite possibly Atmos/DTS-X though the new 4K players do include the capability so the Atmos/DTS-X point could well be moot.

one month later, Hank says: C'mon Outlaw, toss us a morsel.

I've mostly felt "no news is good news" but this has dragged on for quite a while now. Is this project still moving along or is it over for whatever reason?
I'd like to know so I can make a decision and move forward.

Cheers, Jeff

We are still making progress. I am very hopefully we will have another update after the holidays.

Jeff,

Let's see, the first time I gave up and moved on was about 4 years ago. Couldn't wait any ;anger for the then (I think) 997. And then I gave up and moved on again this summer. So I commend you on your perseverance! I could not do so. Good Luck.

Outlaw Audio,

Please give us something either kill it or give us an update. You know, S**t or get off the pot!

According to Ben's post, it looks like we should get the now annual New Year update. Most of the country looks forward to the State of the Union address in January but Outlaw Audio customers are waiting for product updates!

+1 Good one, Owl's_Warder!

Ben: thanks for the encouraging note.

Encouraging? They've been stringing you guys along for 7 or 8 years now. The 997 was cancelled in what.....2010?

This is beyond beating a dead horse. We're now beating the bow strings made from the tail of the horse that later turned up in an estate sale.

I don't want to come across badly here, but by after the Holidays are you referring to after Thanksgiving or after Christmas/New Years?
Thanks for your reply Ben.
Jeff

Typically, the phrase "holidays" encompasses all three. I suspect if the intent was after Thanksgiving, the singular "holiday" or maybe "holiday weekend" would have been used.

I would suspect the term "Holidays" means all those Holidays between now and July 4th.

Glass half full guy that I am I prefer to think of it as Outlaw providing ample time for us to save the $$ required for the new processor.

You should probably have enough for two by now...

The previous full featured processor that was being developed was canceled back in 2012 or 2011.

Yes?
I'm hoping this one is a keeper.
Jeff

Ritz2 wrote: "Encouraging? They've been stringing you guys along for 7 or 8 years now."
If by stringing us along, you mean we've had good products that lasted a long time without the mainstream yearly angst of latest and greatest new models with another feature or two, then okay, guilty as charged. ;-)

For the record, I didn't write that, I quoted it

And I'll add that I've felt no need to upgrade from my trusty 975 which has been running flawlessly for >8 hours a day since the day I bought it (Dec 1 2012 if you're interested)

Well Ben, it's "after" the holidays. January 27 will be my birthday (as well as W.A. Mozart), so an update would be a nice gift that day.

Hey Hank,

Completely understandable; we are currently working on the announcement.

Well Hank, I've always sensed something special and wise about your posts. Now I understand what's behind it: It's that January 27th birthday! Happy birthday in advance. Oh, I forgot to mention: It's my birthday too!

It is true that we have been very quiet, but also working very hard on a number of new products that will be launched this year. The first update/announcement will go out this coming week.

Peter

Yay! Looking forward to the announcements!

Ben: Thanks.
Peter: "Wise" - well now, that's a new accusation ;-) Happy Birthday in advance! I'm having a Texas Hold-'em poker party this Friday evening. My strategy: the more the other players drink, the more I win. Looking forward to the update/announcement.