Subject line & and my screen name says about 98%. Something w/1200 watts should more than be enough for the TV and other low draw devices. That and way le$& than a car payment.

Some background:
1. All low powered equipment fed by A Monster Cable strip providing 2160 joules of protection bought before adding the 975.
2. Failures 1 & 2 caused by a damaged neutral from the pole due to a fallen tree. Power company has corrected that.
3. Ran a dedicated 20A feed installed BEFORE this failure.

The one thing me and my wife don't understand: during this period ONLY the 975 has failed! Except for a clothes dryer and microwave, NO other electronics in the house failed. And believe me, w/all the kids ages 5 to 17, we have more than most households.

Thnx for reading this far, Tony

Neutral line failures can be pretty weird, as can a failure of one of the primary lines. A power conditioner won't help in either of those scenarios, you need a power strip that kills the power completely.

Generally anything that's on when the issue happens is at risk. I've seen pretty much all type appliances get killed, often its the electronic controls that fry. But hardware with transformers tend to object the most.

FWIW, the power co is responsible for damages and should have a claims process.

Also, any devices with a standby power circuit will be more susceptible to varying power conditions, as that circuit gets AC power before the power transformer.

For the money it is hard to beat Tripp Lite -- http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controll...=&A=details

If you want maximum "hocus pocus" -- http://www.musicdirect.com/p-15562-shuny...igodigital&

For clarities sake - sequence of events:
1. the power company repaired the neutral.
2. Installed 20A dedicated line.
3. Returned repaired 975 to HT center stage!
4. 5 days later 975 failed... ...3rd time! 😿

Renov8tor: that Tripp lite is an awesome unit. It provides 5-10 times the capacity for my needs. Something $maller please? Your suggestion would never pass the WAF muster.

Outlaw offers the SurgeX conditioners in various sizes.

SurgeX Products

I use the Tripp Lite so maybe someone else can comment on the SurgeX.

However, if you've blown three units this is a pretty clear indication that something is wrong. Has Outlaw told you want failed in the units? The failure mode can often point to where the problem is.

Ha! A mere $4,000 for a power conditioner. Oh wait. It doesn't come with a power cord...

And I'd be really interested to see how they did any serious filtering without caps and inductors.

There was a low voltage condition on power up that was killing the power supplies. At one time it was configured so the power on of the Outlaw triggered everything else in the system to energize. When all of the amplifiers (he has several) powered up the line voltage would drop below the level the 975 would tolerate.

I am not sure how he has it configured now as several different options have been discussed.

Welcome to the forum Tony. I still think most any small battery back up unit would keep things tidy through start up and solve the problem. Your TV would most likely thank you as well.

APC H-15

I like the look of that APC unit, XenonMan. I've got our gear hooked up to an actual UPS since our power has a tendency to suffer brown outs and actually just go away with a surprising frequency during the winter.

That doesn't make much sense to me. Granted, toroidal transformers can pull a lot of inrush current we they turn on but a 20A circuit should be able to provide that without browning out. I'm beginning to wonder if the Monster isn't the choke point and is causing the brownout when hit with the big inrush.

Take it out. See if #4 breaks

I wish he would give the full amp list. At one time the front right and left were tri-amped and it did not stop there.

Put a voltmeter with a save feature on the power strip and turn on all your equipment to see how low it goes. All my music equipment is powered by the APC-15 and it doesn't dip more than a volt when the amp and sub turns on.

He did this right after he and I started talking about the problem at another forum. There was a radical drop that at times would be out of even the wide spec for voltage leveling listed in the manual for the APC-15 you use. Nice unit by the way and I have been looking at them closely for my own system.

EEman mentioned the inrush current a toroidal transformer can be capable of pulling. Now imagine there are eight or nine of them all trying to power up at the same time.

I would replace the breaker that feeds the circuit. Years ago I had a breaker to a dryer circuit that showed good voltage right up until the dryer stared then the dryer wouldn't run. Circuit City replaced three dryers before I finally replaced the breaker. If he is trying to fire up 8 amps at the same time he is overloading the circuit. Has he tried starting them manually one at a time?

Why does it take a forum member to suggest the obvious?! Big thnx EEman for your input.

When I called about the third failure, the person hesitantly, seemingly reluctantly, suggested a conditioner - but didn't HINT Outlaw sold them!

I'll look at them tomorrow PM.

first two unit failures were before I learned of the damaged neutral. The third failed after power neutral repair and install of dedicated 20A line.

Noooo, they didn't say, shame on me didn't ask. SteveB volunteered the answer - thnx dude!

I hope what follows will answer most of y'all's questions though it may cause new head scratchin'. For brevity BNR = before neutral repair; ANR = after neutral repair

BNR, in various places, line voltage would go up & down like the stock market has lately, 5-10VAC. When the electric dryer would turn on, it would drop to 67-70VAC(!) in my family room/home theater.

ANR w/electric dryer still in the mix, I measured 1-1.5VAC. Under a volt on the dedicated 20A line. BTW: BEFORE reinstalling the 975 we switched to a gas dryer.

The 20A line voltage steady @ 119.9-120.1. When the amps & sub kick on, momentarily drops to 116 then quickly recovers to 119. Anyone want to guess why it pooped the third time? I can't even begin!


For you, Steve, my man! Please pardon the correction below - you ARE, however, speaking the truth in advance! The ANR configuration has just one change: the Furman Miniport 20 feeds power to the Belles amps, the MC strip handles everything else

A quick preface: LR speakers come w/4 binding posts (bi-wire) I modded for active bi-amping, using an active XO for the curious. Mid/tweet the "tops," the "bottoms" a pair of what Polk call subs; a 7" sub(?) Yup. Well...maybe...they're rated to 35hz
The amps:
Rotel RB-985* rated @100***&160**WPC/8&4 ohms, powers the CC & the L&R tops
Separate L & R Belles Series 1 rated @ 100WPC powering LR bottoms
Hafler XL-280 145/WPC powering rears
Audio Pro B1.35 powered sub
* using 3 of the 5 channels; toroidal in PS
** tested exceeding power rating all channels driven, while meeting distortion specs

I so appreciate everyone's time, interest, & help in the search for "no more returns to repair!"
Tony

thanks for the welcome Steve and you're likely more right* than you know*. I'll call you some time this weekend. I want the next $pent on this (problem**) to be the last.

I'm dyin' to finish the work to tri-amp my LCR but I hafta get past this distraction** first. I have IC cables to make, binding post upgrades & additions to do before I can rip out the last of the passive filtering.

While the Surgex SA line that we carry has filtering for EMI/RFI and transients, it does not have AC regulation in order to protect against voltage sag or brownouts. As such, it would not solve 975 destroyer's problem. It does appear the Tripp Lite unit has AC regulation though. Unfortunately as voltage drops, current rises and voltage sag or brownout like conditions could blow internal fuses and damage internal circuitry.

I agree with Ben (sort of). I don't think the problem is transients and brownouts coming from outside as much as I think the transient and brownouts are generated by the system and back-feeding the 975. I'm concerned that the number of amps on the one circuit are causing high inrush currents (transients) and POSSIBLY low power factor (a potential source of brownouts) although I need to think about this some more. Adding protection to the input power is unlikely to solve the problem UNLESS it also isolates the individual loads from each other

BTW, It does makes sense to me that a floating neutral on a 240 volt feed to a dryer would cause a lot of problems with voltage levels on individual circuits as the input to your house is a center tapped transformer. Doesn't explain the third unit failure though.

yes that WAS true BNR. Upon system power up, line voltage would sag to below 100 VAC then recover.

Scratch your head w/this:
Upon purchase, the 975 ran for 3 weeks w/out a hitch w/the same amp config* w/a damaged neutral w/a gas dryer. Switching to electric dryer made it poop. Didn't learn about the damaged neutral till after the 2nd failure.
* minus Audio Pro
what does that mean?

I doubt that now. Does anyone think a 116VAC sag is a "brownout?!" Sidenote: we did experience a 2 second blackout just before lights out last night. See "Scratch your head" above.

Ponder this this solution: For all low draw equipment, looking at a Panamax conditioner on the Polk flea market for surge protection. Further considering 1 or 2 UPSs. One small (100 VA?), fast acting UPS for the 975. The other to power the everything else. The Xbox, TV, and cable* see the most use, the Xbox drawing over half the combined 6** amps or 725 watts? CD and Blu Ray about 1A each***.
* on all the time
** taken from their PSs
*** Xbox off when they're in use.

During the last failure the Belles Amps (6 amp fuses) were powered by the Furman out of the other 20A outlet* - remember it* has 2! The Hafler (3A fuse) actually wasn't turned on for some reason.

The amps combined draw based upon fuses = 19A*(!) though in actual use their draw probably 1/2 or less. Note: I will add 3 more 3A amps by the time I finish the bi-amping & tri-amping. Before that I will use the Furman** delay turn on feature (2-3 sec) to prevent popping the breaker. They'll, of course, share the dedicated 20A feed but none of the above mention UPSs or protection. I will get the amps protection in due course - one problem at a time
* Audio Pro not in equation - family game engrossed as I type
** BTW I have two Furman Miniport 20s - 20 stands for 20A

yup

Thanks for reading this far, you guys are the best! Tony

If your concern is still the failures of the 975 due to low voltage conditions get a sufficiently rated UPS and just power the 975 from it. Most UPS' have some sort of indication on them when they are providing power. Monitor that function to determine if the 975 is being challenged. I have two 20 amp circuits in my audio room one for the music system and the other for the HT system and I don't have nearly the amp draw that you have. Remember too that the lowest voltage you see may not be the lowest voltage attained due to the limitations of the meters reading fast transients.

Big thanks to Xman!
YUP!! I'm WAY past tired of this problem. To my ear the 975 eats my Rotel RSP-1068 as an appetizer! And it retailed @ 3X the $ over 10 years ago! Still works... ...mostly.
We-e-e-ll... the low power stuff deserve this long over "upgrade" too.
"Sounds" like sound advice. Can't recall if the unused APC 750 at work has that feature - I want to guinea pig w/it though I think the battery is overdo for replacement.
Wish I an "O" scope to take the readings.

A side note: I underestimated the Rotel 985 draw @ 4A. In fact it's rated @ 800 watts @ full power - 6.6A(?) pushing the amps assumed full power current to over 21A plus the Audio Pro. I CAN spell both Furmans for Delay turn on.

As long as we're on the line conditioner topic I need some advice. I have had a Power Wedge 1118 as the conditioner in my system since 1996! Throughout all the changes I've made to my system, it has been there & still remains. It's a beast, weighs almost 50 lbs. I'm going to add another amp when I upgrade to Atmos/DTS:X when Outlaw releases the new pre/pro. Is it time to get a new surge protector/conditioner also? It has never failed me, but I have heard that MOV's degrade over time. I'm wondering if it is still protecting my system at the same level as when new(er). I have plugged a Panamax protector into the receptacle where I plug the Power Wedge into for some peace of mind. I tried contacting the maker of the Power Wedge (API), but got no response. Any advice appreciated!

It means that your amps may actually be causing the damage to the 975 by causing transients/brownouts/noise etc. that get back on the power lines feeding the 975.



Note that although the Furman has two outlets you're still limited to the 20A limit of your circuit. i.e. you can't get 20Amps out of both outlets at the same time.

I'd feel more comfortable if there were on two circuits so you could split the load.

I don't doubt transients & noise but question a brown out. During the Sept 2nd failure, volume was low. Either way you're saying isolate the 975 and feed it steady, clean juice. I want to believe that should be ea$y - it draws just 25 watts.

Unfortunately I struggle w/several aspects of once-and-for-all solving this problem:
1. I don't KNOW what caused the failure this time
2. Therefore, what's the solution? ???
3. SO many different products. MOV versus non, etc, etc. "Does it filter AND regulate?"
4. Easy, cover it all. $$$!! I refuse to just throw $ at it.
Finding something that will provide a measly 50+ watts of clean, steady power w/out spending a lot ($100) has proven frustrating at best. How about an AC-AC transformer ->APC 350? And, say a 750 to cover the other low draw equipment?

Yeah I realize the dedcated feed will SAFELY provide 20 amps total to both jacks. I chose to use the Furman as a 2 outlet strip for the Belles amps mostly out of convenience, powering everything else from the MC. I'd planed to reconfigure in a day or two using the MC for all low-draw, Furman for all amps & sub but the temperamental 975 PS has other ideas. Remember it ran trouble free for 3 weeks w/a damaged neutral.

Perhaps I could run an extension cord from a different circuit as a temporary "dedicated" low draw-only power source. I regret I didn't do a better job sizing up power requirements - I never imagined just my sub & existing amp powering my LCR could theoretically max the new feed.

At the time, running a second line would been a just little more work. On the other hand, even in its finished configuration, I'd be shocked if it actually exceeded the line capacity.

I'm more than a little tempted to live w/a fractionally higher electrical bill. Namely scrap/bypass the 975 PS. Salvage the PS from a Rotel RSP-980* - they're robust. Failing that, build old-school regulated PS(s) w/ additional bits and pieces for filtering. It wouldn't $ anything near or take up space like what some suggest I buy.
* Rotel RSP-1068 is still truckin' along too; both have dead channels

Thank for reading this far. I apologize if my negative feelings come across in my writing.

I believe you may have made your system too complicated. I understand your desire to get the most out of every piece of equipment, but providing separate amps for each driver in your system seems a bit self defeating. I agree with EEMAN that you should seek a second circuit to split the load. Adding power conditioners is also adding load to the circuit as they are not passive devices and do use some power. Is it possible to re-purpose a receptacle in an adjacent room on a shared wall to use in your audio room. The fact that the 975 survived for three weeks in a circuit that had a bad neutral is just happenstance or good design by Outlaw. In any case you can probably call Outlaw and they can tell you what the failure was in the 975 from when they did the repair. It might narrow down the possible reasons for the failure.

Do the back feeding and transients from the amplifiers only occur at amplifier start and is it preventable? I would have thought this would be a function of the power control centers available for HT systems.

Maybe this? Some folks say it has the same "guts" as the rack mount unit with a more "household friendly" package, but others miss the steel construction -- http://www.walmart.com/ip/10730571?wmlsp...271&veh=sem

I would still like to know what was happening right at power on, is everything still powering on at the same time? I looked at the Monster site for your surge suppressor. The literature says it should protect from transients from outside sources but says nothing of anything unpleasant that might be created by something plugged into the strip itself.

We talked about this but others here know the tech side to a much greater extent than I so will probably see something I would miss. Here I run everything from a single 15 amp circuit without issue but am careful to never turn on everything at the same time. Running separate surge suppression I keep the amps separate from anything with a processor on board. Based on what I am seeing in my own system my monster Adcom probably pulls its heaviest load at power on.

Here I am looking at just over 120,000 uf of power supply capacitance at start if I turned on every amp at the same time. (not counting the SW but being class D I doubt it would have much effect) You are at almost four times that amount. It has to have an effect. It would be great if one of the techies would take time to explain what might happen.

Xenon is correct in stating your meter is not necessarily showing everything. My DMM is of the "averaging" type so would not give the actual highs and lows. Shoots my idea of the clamp on amp/voltage meter showing anything we do not know now.

How much current does a class A/B amplifier pull just sitting turned on with no input signal applied? I understand this is relative to the amp but in general. I still think you could solve the problem by bringing the amps up first to get any potential nastiness out of the way before the sensitive stuff comes into play.

It is an interesting puzzle.

Looking around at the DIY sites one of the first upgrades to signal path components is the power supply. I would like to get one of your kills for a bit of fun time and experimentation. Better power supply and film cap/resistor upgrades in the signal path might yield something pretty cool.

I recently replaced the batteries in my APC UPS. After much looking around, I found the best price (by far) for what I needed at Battery Sharks. They were quick, affordable, pleasant to deal with, and had an extended Memorial Day weekend sale going on so I got an even better price than I thought. If I recall correctly, they ended up being in the neighborhood of 50% lower than what I was finding most other places.

I wish to extend a heartfelt thanks across the miles of cyberspace for you taking time from your life to help me w/mine.
No regrets during my 2 channel days. This just an extra channel by comparison. I'll be the first to admit "it ain't easy..."
1. cabling is a BUNCH of work, making sure the correct XO output is connected to the correct channel to its respective driver can make a migraine* seem less painful
2. verifying correct bandwidth output from each driver a little easier
3. the initial XO adjustments, while less physically stressful than 1&2, are harder for those who adjust for ego instead of SQ.
...but I can't recall ever being sorry once I retire that screw driver

BTW I suffer from headaches that are believed WORSE - Cluster AKA ice pick or suicide headaches. Ice pick comes from feeling in your head; suicide comes from self-induced fatality rate. But let's return to this problem giving more than just me a brain banger.
Well I have the amps & XOs so... ...why not? As convoluted as it may seem, the overwhelming weak link(s) in my current setup are the passive XOs. I doubt Polk spent more than $3 maybe $4 in each of my Left-Center-Right speakers. To upgrade to resisters & caps that sound transparent, that is, they don't impart any sonic signature, would run well north of $100 per speaker easy. As crazy as it "sounds," electric $ aside, it's actually le$$.
Please rephrase - I don't follow.
Working on just that for the low draw equipment when I'm not working at my second full time job, unpaid of course, the stuff my family messes up that ONLY Dad can fix.
Thank you! You're the first to point that out.
I'll go along w/happenstance but NOT...
...not by a long shot especially when you factor in the upgraded power feed, its the ONLY component failure in my system. BTW it was the house neutral.
I hope you're right about your last point. This time I'm including a letter requesting just that*.

I ask anyone watching and reading to see how this plays out, PLEASE be patient w/what I have in front of me. I'm the dad of more than most. Not just the number of children none of whom we birthed, but more than half w/special needs due to either their history prior to becoming mine, they were born that way, or in several cases, both. Making time for a passion that they enjoy fruit almost as much as I is tough.

Tony

In the voltage department I still can't tell you exactly what's up and I don't plan to $pend any more on that. Instead:
1. run yet another line daisy chained from another circuit for low draw equipment.
2. add WHATEVER paying particular attention to isolating the 975 from everything else.
3. Instant turn on for sub & one amp
4. for the others use the Furman Miniport 20 delay feature. ~ 3 seconds & 3 seconds should do it.
i hope what you read above will protect etc and give us no more to write in this thread

At idle the answer varies some upon amp bias though in most cases it isn't much. How close is it biased to "Class A?" You could turn it up that far, though without backing WAY off on the rail voltage or running it in a closed freezer w/a fan you'd see smoke soon! The Rotel & Belles run cool at idle, barely warm at extended high volume. A side note: the Belles is a bit load dependent on that issue - not crazy about lower impedances unless it's on a milk crate. The Haflers' bias settings are higher.

I have to complete
A. several honey do items
B. the next phase for the reason for this thread
C. and the tri-amping
After the above, as backup I will build a regulated old-school PS for the 975 w/a few filtering enhancements because if it's factory PS poops again it's not worth repairing.

Tony

Thanks for the tip, Tony

APC H10 line conditioner! Can regulate to a voltage range of 114 to 126. Is this safe?

I use the APC H15 for my systems and it is excellent. When it senses a voltage sag beyond its range it shutsdown all the equipment and when voltage returns it starts back ups. Very good for lightning areas.

One of the great things about the APC H15 is the voltage and power draw indications on the front panel. You can turn on your equipment one at a time ad see what is happening to the voltage and how much power each piece of gear draws at idle..

Xman: do you if the APC H10/15 isolate each device from the others? If yes then an H10 or H15 should protect my low draw* from each other & everything else.
* including 975

The back of the H15 has separate sections for the various components connected to it. For instance, the Amp/Subwoofer section is separate from the AVR/Preamp section. Each section is optimized for the type of component you have plugged in. The top row of receptacles is best for digital gear as it is the most sensitive to voltage fluctuations while the Amp/Sub section is set up with a high current filter. As far as it goes they are separated by various filter circuits but they all get power from the same source.

I've located, though not purchased yet, a used APC H10 at a substantial $avings compared to new.

XenonMan: I've seen the pics & read great tech reviews. Further on another forum read the "15" is a 1.5 KWatt version of the "10" save for a read out on the front panel.

But I haven't verified if this device or any other make/model would isolate the 975 from my other low draw equipment w/out spending a large car payment. I suppose I could use the Digital section for the 975 alone, the high current section for the Xbox, everything else into another may take care of biz. I'm SO desperate that this go-around w/Repair be the last. I bought it early May - four months now. It's spent more time either at Repair or in its shipping box than connected, much less enjoyed.

I won't rule out building a back-up old school PS either from scratch or parts from a 900 series Rotel SSP. Their 900 & 1000 series SSPs come w/independent regulated PSs for each voltage required - I'm confident I'll need just a project box of sorts for housing the same.

Many thanks for your help, Tony

I'm the proud owner of an APC H15 power conditioner for ~ $150 shipped!

Excellent. I look forward to hearing your impressions of it once it is in the system.

Good luck

Per Tech Support, brown outs caused all the failures... ...a component in the Standby* circuit. "It's* between the jack & the power transformer."

I'd like to survey 975 owners using line conditioners (e.g. APC* H15, etc) or UPSs if they've experienced a big enough brown out to engage "line boost*" circuitry.
* APC talk for their Auto Voltage Regulation "kickin' up" sagging (below 103VAC) line voltage.

Thx, Tony

I hear our UPS kick on now and again but haven't had any problems with our 975. Pretty sure we bought it in the spring (tax return money!) of 2013 so it's been in the system a while now.

It is very rare for us to lose power but the APC-15 has an indication on the front which tells you it has activated to control voltage. I think 103 volts is a bit out of its range and it will just shutdown the power. Mine has actuated during lightning storms without any apparent change in voltage.

Make & model?

At EEman's suggestion, I Finally, finally, FINALLY(!) today I completed a dedicated 15A line to power my low-draw gear. Key install point: the two dedicated lines are NOT on the same leg coming off the pole.

I unboxed my Outlaw, long back from repair in October. Along the way rearranged some gear & cabling, thoroughly cleaned everything, plugged in the H15 & connected it all.

Unfortunately by the time I finished, it was after 11pm!

Tomorrow I'll run a couple of tests then I enjoy the fruit I've, for so long, waited to taste, and ask God: please no more failures.

Merry CHRISTmas, Tony

Plug something else in first to test the outlet

Better yet, measure the power with a meter.

I did*. Further, I "tested the circuits together," by simultaneously powering up all high draw gear including, for test purposes only, a Mackie 1400i**. APC H15 Line Boost indicator didn't flash or flicker! Breakers on separate legs from the road did the trick.
** draws 1500 watts

I've since added the MP-20s* to aid power distribution in 2 stages. I plan to add a third* for a third stage.

Thanks for your help. Merry CHRISTmas! Tony

Earlier this week*, I finished my gift to my family: a VERY family-friendly*, incredibly robust 5.1 home entertainment system.
* prior to then, turn on required pressing or flipping 2 or more switches

Their return gift has been & will continue to be enjoying same!

Tony

Took you long enough.

Just kidding Tony. It was a long time coming. Glad it is working out

ENJOYING(!) the Blu-Ray "The Amazingly Spider Man." WOW! Immersive soundscape!

Volume @ -17dB. (Reference to another thread: Posts on what we'd like to see in a new pre-pro)

tell me about it, my bud from the great state of Texas(!)

You ain't lying😂! Everyone here "is lovin' it!"

Didn't get to the A/B test between the Parasound & Rotel. 😢 ...a little "under the weather" BP is UP! Maybe next weekend.

Glad to hear it was worth all of the effort. We have been quite happy with ours and the audio seems to improve with some hours. I have never regretted the decision to keep the Outlaw over the Emotiva I was test driving. I am going to wait a while for the second hand prices to drop so I can pick up a second unit for all of the reqular upgrades.

If you listen to radio the tuner is pretty nice also. I have ours connected to the antenna on the roof and have no issues pulling stations from all surrounding areas.

Sit back now and enjoy all the work that has gone into making it happen.


Kudos to Outlaw here as well. Most companies would have not only given up but refused a refund blaming everything on you.

Since my last reply haven't had a lick of trouble.

I took special care to give the 975 it's own bank. Look at my sig for more power distribution upgrades & details. Maybe once a week I see the APC take over. Usually due low line voltage, sometimes due to over voltage.

I've since tri-amped my left, center, & right channels. Click below for details & pics:

http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/174880/tri-amped-rti-a7

http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/175612/tri-amped-csi-a6/p1?new=1

I don't expect to bi-amp the surrounds until after we move (late spring/early summer)

Happy 2017! Tony