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#95284 - 09/17/15 12:14 PM Re: Line conditioner that handles voltage sags well [Re: Stephen B]
EEman Offline
Desperado

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 514
Loc: Canton, MI
That doesn't make much sense to me. Granted, toroidal transformers can pull a lot of inrush current we they turn on but a 20A circuit should be able to provide that without browning out. I'm beginning to wonder if the Monster isn't the choke point and is causing the brownout when hit with the big inrush.

Take it out. See if #4 breaks smile
_________________________
975/7075/SMS-1
Aperion Verus Grand Towers & Bookshelves, Verus Forte Center, Infinity Surrounds, Ultra-X12
Oppo BDP-203, XBOX360, Xbox One
LG 65" OLED
RR2150 w/Klipsch SCR-2

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#95285 - 09/17/15 05:07 PM Re: Line conditioner that handles voltage sags well [Re: 975 destroyer]
Stephen B Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 214
Loc: East Texas
I wish he would give the full amp list. At one time the front right and left were tri-amped and it did not stop there.

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#95286 - 09/17/15 06:15 PM Re: Line conditioner that handles voltage sags well [Re: 975 destroyer]
XenonMan Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2676
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
Put a voltmeter with a save feature on the power strip and turn on all your equipment to see how low it goes. All my music equipment is powered by the APC-15 and it doesn't dip more than a volt when the amp and sub turns on.
_________________________
Music system
Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD
APC H15 Power Conditioner

TV System
Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv


Home Theater System
Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv
Harmony ONE
Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects
APC H15 Power Conditioner

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#95287 - 09/17/15 06:47 PM Re: Line conditioner that handles voltage sags well [Re: XenonMan]
Stephen B Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 214
Loc: East Texas
Originally Posted By: XenonMan
Put a voltmeter with a save feature on the power strip and turn on all your equipment to see how low it goes.


He did this right after he and I started talking about the problem at another forum. There was a radical drop that at times would be out of even the wide spec for voltage leveling listed in the manual for the APC-15 you use. Nice unit by the way and I have been looking at them closely for my own system.

EEman mentioned the inrush current a toroidal transformer can be capable of pulling. Now imagine there are eight or nine of them all trying to power up at the same time.

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#95288 - 09/17/15 09:02 PM Re: Line conditioner that handles voltage sags well [Re: 975 destroyer]
XenonMan Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2676
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
I would replace the breaker that feeds the circuit. Years ago I had a breaker to a dryer circuit that showed good voltage right up until the dryer stared then the dryer wouldn't run. Circuit City replaced three dryers before I finally replaced the breaker. If he is trying to fire up 8 amps at the same time he is overloading the circuit. Has he tried starting them manually one at a time?
_________________________
Music system
Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD
APC H15 Power Conditioner

TV System
Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv


Home Theater System
Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv
Harmony ONE
Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects
APC H15 Power Conditioner

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#95289 - 09/18/15 02:13 AM Re: Line conditioner that handles voltage sags well [Re: EEman]
975 destroyer Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 09/07/15
Posts: 129
Loc: Georgia, US of A!
Originally Posted By: EEman
Outlaw offers the SurgeX conditioners in various sizes.

[url=http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/surgex.html]
Why does it take a forum member to suggest the obvious?! Big thnx EEman for your input.

When I called about the third failure, the person hesitantly, seemingly reluctantly, suggested a conditioner - but didn't HINT Outlaw sold them!

I'll look at them tomorrow PM.

Originally Posted By: EEman
?.. if you've blown three units this is a pretty clear indication that something is wrong.
first two unit failures were before I learned of the damaged neutral. The third failed after power neutral repair and install of dedicated 20A line.

Originally Posted By: EEman
Has Outlaw told you what failed in the units?
Noooo, they didn't say, shame on me didn't ask. SteveB volunteered the answer - thnx dude!
_________________________
Samsung 60" LED
Outlaw Audio 976
Samsung BD player, Phillips CD chgr, Dish DVR, Firestick

Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside; CC outside
BJC 10 ga - LCR mids*, inside & out
8 ga Powerline - LR woofers, inside & out

LR: Tri-amped Polk RTi A7
Rotel RB980s -> woofers; Rotel RB981s -> mids w/phase plugs & tweeters
CC: bi-amped Polk CSi A6 -> Rotel RB981
SWs: Sunfire & 4 Audio Pros - LFE True Sig; 4 Evidence - 1 @ ea corner
Surrounds: Rotel RB981 -> Polk RTi A3
Power Conditioning & Distribution:
3 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 4 Furman MP-20s

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#95290 - 09/18/15 03:35 AM Re: Line conditioner that handles voltage sags well [Re: Stephen B]
975 destroyer Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 09/07/15
Posts: 129
Loc: Georgia, US of A!
I hope what follows will answer most of y'all's questions though it may cause new head scratchin'. For brevity BNR = before neutral repair; ANR = after neutral repair

BNR, in various places, line voltage would go up & down like the stock market has lately, 5-10VAC. When the electric dryer would turn on, it would drop to 67-70VAC(!) in my family room/home theater.

ANR w/electric dryer still in the mix, I measured 1-1.5VAC. Under a volt on the dedicated 20A line. BTW: BEFORE reinstalling the 975 we switched to a gas dryer.

The 20A line voltage steady @ 119.9-120.1. When the amps & sub kick on, momentarily drops to 116 then quickly recovers to 119. Anyone want to guess why it pooped the third time? I can't even begin!

Originally Posted By: Stephen B
I wish he would give the full amp list. At one time the front right and left were tri-amped and it did not stop there.

For you, Steve, my man! Please pardon the correction below - you ARE, however, speaking the truth in advance! The ANR configuration has just one change: the Furman Miniport 20 feeds power to the Belles amps, the MC strip handles everything else

A quick preface: LR speakers come w/4 binding posts (bi-wire) I modded for active bi-amping, using an active XO for the curious. Mid/tweet the "tops," the "bottoms" a pair of what Polk call subs; a 7" sub(?) Yup. Well...maybe...they're rated to 35hz
The amps:
Rotel RB-985* rated @100***&160**WPC/8&4 ohms, powers the CC & the L&R tops
Separate L & R Belles Series 1 rated @ 100WPC powering LR bottoms
Hafler XL-280 145/WPC powering rears
Audio Pro B1.35 powered sub
* using 3 of the 5 channels; toroidal in PS
** tested exceeding power rating all channels driven, while meeting distortion specs

I so appreciate everyone's time, interest, & help in the search for "no more returns to repair!"
Tony


Edited by 975 destroyer (09/18/15 03:46 AM)
_________________________
Samsung 60" LED
Outlaw Audio 976
Samsung BD player, Phillips CD chgr, Dish DVR, Firestick

Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside; CC outside
BJC 10 ga - LCR mids*, inside & out
8 ga Powerline - LR woofers, inside & out

LR: Tri-amped Polk RTi A7
Rotel RB980s -> woofers; Rotel RB981s -> mids w/phase plugs & tweeters
CC: bi-amped Polk CSi A6 -> Rotel RB981
SWs: Sunfire & 4 Audio Pros - LFE True Sig; 4 Evidence - 1 @ ea corner
Surrounds: Rotel RB981 -> Polk RTi A3
Power Conditioning & Distribution:
3 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 4 Furman MP-20s

Top
#95291 - 09/18/15 03:56 AM Re: Line conditioner that handles voltage sags well [Re: Stephen B]
975 destroyer Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 09/07/15
Posts: 129
Loc: Georgia, US of A!
Originally Posted By: Stephen B
Welcome to the forum Tony. I still think most any small battery back up unit would keep things tidy* through start up and solve the problem*. Your TV* would most likely thank* you as well.
thanks for the welcome Steve and you're likely more right* than you know*. I'll call you some time this weekend. I want the next $pent on this (problem**) to be the last.

I'm dyin' to finish the work to tri-amp my LCR but I hafta get past this distraction** first. I have IC cables to make, binding post upgrades & additions to do before I can rip out the last of the passive filtering.
_________________________
Samsung 60" LED
Outlaw Audio 976
Samsung BD player, Phillips CD chgr, Dish DVR, Firestick

Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside; CC outside
BJC 10 ga - LCR mids*, inside & out
8 ga Powerline - LR woofers, inside & out

LR: Tri-amped Polk RTi A7
Rotel RB980s -> woofers; Rotel RB981s -> mids w/phase plugs & tweeters
CC: bi-amped Polk CSi A6 -> Rotel RB981
SWs: Sunfire & 4 Audio Pros - LFE True Sig; 4 Evidence - 1 @ ea corner
Surrounds: Rotel RB981 -> Polk RTi A3
Power Conditioning & Distribution:
3 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 4 Furman MP-20s

Top
#95292 - 09/18/15 01:23 PM Re: Line conditioner that handles voltage sags well [Re: 975 destroyer]
Outlaw Ben Offline

Gunslinger

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 241
While the Surgex SA line that we carry has filtering for EMI/RFI and transients, it does not have AC regulation in order to protect against voltage sag or brownouts. As such, it would not solve 975 destroyer's problem. It does appear the Tripp Lite unit has AC regulation though. Unfortunately as voltage drops, current rises and voltage sag or brownout like conditions could blow internal fuses and damage internal circuitry.

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#95334 - 09/18/15 10:52 PM Re: Line conditioner that handles voltage sags well [Re: 975 destroyer]
EEman Offline
Desperado

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 514
Loc: Canton, MI
I agree with Ben (sort of). I don't think the problem is transients and brownouts coming from outside as much as I think the transient and brownouts are generated by the system and back-feeding the 975. I'm concerned that the number of amps on the one circuit are causing high inrush currents (transients) and POSSIBLY low power factor (a potential source of brownouts) although I need to think about this some more. Adding protection to the input power is unlikely to solve the problem UNLESS it also isolates the individual loads from each other

BTW, It does makes sense to me that a floating neutral on a 240 volt feed to a dryer would cause a lot of problems with voltage levels on individual circuits as the input to your house is a center tapped transformer. Doesn't explain the third unit failure though.

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