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#93370 - 07/22/13 07:27 PM Outlaws Next Pre/Pro?
mdrconsult Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 126
Loc: Austin, Texas
Things have been remarkably quiet around here for several months now. I am wondering is there any news about the big brother to the 975? I thought Outlaw was going to release a higher end more feature rich Pre/Pro sometime after the 975. I think it was going to have a 99X designation. Is there any news on this unit?
_________________________
Emotiva XMC-1, Outlaw 7500, Sonus Faber Olympica III Fronts, SF Liuto Center, SF Surrounds, LFM-1 EX, Oppo BDP-103D, Apple TV (Gen. 4), Mitsubishi 65" Diamond DLP, Outlaw Cables, PS Audio Power Quintet, Duet and power cords.

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#93371 - 07/22/13 08:36 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
XenonMan Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2676
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
I don't recall any followup processor being promised although we are hopeful for a "big brother" to the 975. I would have hoped for the Trinnov system to have survived but alas I think it may be pie in the sky.
_________________________
Music system
Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD
APC H15 Power Conditioner

TV System
Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv


Home Theater System
Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv
Harmony ONE
Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects
APC H15 Power Conditioner

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#93374 - 07/25/13 05:23 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
KOYAAN Offline
Desperado

Registered: 09/04/05
Posts: 358
Loc: Sanford NC
Outlaw has kind of been that route and it was a disaster. Tinnov was a great idea, but i'm not sure anyone can make it work.
I'd love to see Outlaw come out with an EQ only unit that would supplement there Pre-pro offerings, but I don't expect it to happen.
_________________________
HT:
990/770
Oppo BD83SE
Pioneer Elite DV-47A
Magnavox HDMR513h DVR/DVD-R
Sony DVD megachangers-2
Sony CD megachangers-2
Monster power centers-2
Sony 48" rear projection SDTV
Roku video player
JVC AL-A158 Turntable
Polk RT-2000s,CS-650,XS-650s,RT80s
LFM-1EX
Hsu VTF-1
12" Velodyne

Family room:
OPPO 970
Sony 32" direct view HDTV
Denon 3801
Rolk RMs

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#93376 - 07/26/13 08:30 AM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
rubbersoul Offline
Desperado

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 383
Loc: folsom, pa.
I disagree KOYAAN.
I myself like many others since the demise of the 975 are looking for something more substantial then an EQ device.
While I have never heard of Outlaw coming out with or investing in a BB to the 975 I do agree that this forum needs vital resucatation. It is somewhat boring coming to this forum while there is no new avenues of product reinforcement to get people interested in Outlaw.
That said I am the proud owner of the 990/7700 combo and I was very excited and looking forward to the 975 and would have made a purchase. Since we read the obituary of the 975 some time ago I had it in my head to make a leap to Marantz....specifically the 8801. Mine you while the price tag is steep I did some research and found someone selling the Marantz ( authorized dealer) for1/3 less than its original price tag. However I came to my senses and realized that the 990 is for now STILL an adequate processor. Adequate compared to some of the processors that were in the marketplace at the time of the 990 release. By today's standards I feel it is a dinosaur.
I have taken time off researching for a new processor because I realize my system both in 2channel and 7.1 mode still has me at the edge of my seat when I put on a riveting movie on an artist such as Jane Monheit.
I am going to remain loyal to Outlaw and wait. Sit tight and wait. I just hope Outlaw survives. It is pretty competitive in the electronics market and I don't see a company surviving on pass performance indefinitely.
I also hope that IF Outlaw is redesigning a new processor it does NOT make any announcement of its development until it is in its final stages of production. The 975 was to much of a let down and disappointed a lot of people.
I hope Outlaw has a rebirth in the electronic environment.
_________________________
Outlaw 990/7700
Conrad Johnson Premier140 Tube Amplifier
Conrad Johnson 17LS MKll Pre Amp
B&W 803D2’s HTM3S DS7's
HSU Subwoofer
Mitsubishi 6800 Projector
Da-Lite Screen,
Oppo BDP93
Comcast
PS Audio DSD
Stack Variac
Kill-O-Watt
Nakamichi cables Audio 8 cables
Air-Server
Mac-Mini
ROON

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#93377 - 07/26/13 12:52 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
Owl's_Warder Offline
Desperado

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 894
Loc: Grants Pass, OR
rubbersoul, I don't feel that the 975 is dead already. I think it's a great pre/pro and love mine! I realize some people wanted more from it but at this price with the kind of performance it has, I really don't think there's much to complain about. In fact, I think that as more people find it and spread the word, the Outlaws should find they have quite a nice little hit on their hands.

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#93378 - 07/26/13 07:05 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
XenonMan Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2676
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
I think Rubbersoul is referring to the 978/997/998 series of cancelled processors. I agree the cancelled products were a disappointment to most of us but the 975 seems to have filled a niche at least in the short term. I for one agree that the forum has become rather boring since there are no discussions of upcoming equipment and Outlaw has been very tightlipped about any future stuff. Right now we are reduced to discussing the same old equipment and most of those questions can be found in the various threads. We need some new stuff to talk about.
_________________________
Music system
Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD
APC H15 Power Conditioner

TV System
Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv


Home Theater System
Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv
Harmony ONE
Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects
APC H15 Power Conditioner

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#93379 - 07/26/13 07:22 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
Owl's_Warder Offline
Desperado

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 894
Loc: Grants Pass, OR
Ahh, that makes more sense Xenon. I do agree that the forums have been more crickets than anything of late, though. It used to be much more lively back when we had notice of pending releases and speculation and opinions ran wild across the plains. Unfortunately, there were those that got too far bent out of shape when works in progress didn't pan out or took longer than anticipated to finish and were unable to temper their reactions. So the Outlaws stopped sharing the potentially new and exciting to quell the backlash and I fear this is the result. I understand the position and can't argue the logic of it, but it really seems to have squashed a lot of potential conversations.

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#93380 - 07/27/13 09:28 AM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
rubbersoul Offline
Desperado

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 383
Loc: folsom, pa.
XM is correct I was referring to the 978 series. I apologize. The 975 although it is less than what a lot of people expected is for the price an outstanding piece of equipment.
This is a review I have read about the 975.

www.hometheater.com/content/outlaw-model-975-surround-processor

I enjoyed coming to this forum almost everyday but lately there seems to be just the sound of tumbleweeds and cobwebs, people myself included hoping to come to this site someday reading about something new and exciting.
I still have hope and that hope is the flame I see everytime I turn on my 990/7700.
_________________________
Outlaw 990/7700
Conrad Johnson Premier140 Tube Amplifier
Conrad Johnson 17LS MKll Pre Amp
B&W 803D2’s HTM3S DS7's
HSU Subwoofer
Mitsubishi 6800 Projector
Da-Lite Screen,
Oppo BDP93
Comcast
PS Audio DSD
Stack Variac
Kill-O-Watt
Nakamichi cables Audio 8 cables
Air-Server
Mac-Mini
ROON

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#93381 - 07/31/13 11:19 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
ndskurfer Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/27/08
Posts: 120
Loc: Bismarck, ND
It has been a while since I have been back to this forum. During the times of 997/998/978 I was checking here for info a few times a day. Now, my expectations on the next processor is not as great as it once was, although I would like to come back some day to an unexpected surprise...

Today I see Outlaw as a really good Sub & Amp company. Not discrediting the 975, I'm sure it is great, but not what I was looking for.

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#93404 - 08/07/13 12:05 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
C E Rorabaugh Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 6
Hello all.

I would replace my Outlaw 990 with a newer Outlaw, except I really like the convenience of the rear USB input. The built in DAC, is more than adequate. I have compared it to several modest priced external DAC's. I have an extensive classical and jazz library in lossless and my PC's USB out goes right into the 990. Are there better DAC's, sure, but remember that Outlaw is great mid-price gear, and I'd rather not spend $$$ on a super DAC that is slightly or even marginally better just for a wow or cool factor.

Claude Rorabaugh


Edited by C E Rorabaugh (08/07/13 12:06 PM)

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#93410 - 08/09/13 10:04 AM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
THX Jay Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 03/26/13
Posts: 8
I posted something about this in one of the other threads, but what is everyone looking for in a mid-priced processor?

I can do without balanced connections and a lot of the legacy connections, but dual, stereo sub outputs would be great. Auto Room EQ would be really useful (I'd pay a little extra for Audyssey's XT32 with the bass/sub correction). I would also like a front display you could turn off. I liked the thought process behind the 975 of "trimming the fat" and going for sound quality over everything else, and I would love the next pre/pro to include these features.

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#93413 - 08/09/13 02:53 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: THX Jay]
renov8r Offline
Desperado

Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 336
Loc: Illinois

I really agree with this sort of philosophy. As cool as the ridunkulous feature list of options (and associated NASCAR like logo panel) might be to some drooling idiot at Best Buy I would actually PREFER to not have built-in access to every streaming service operating in this solar system, crazy connection options that I will in all likelihood NEVER use, LED display that could run advertising at an NBA stadium and more sources of digital / RF noise than your average Soviet era air-to-ground radio jammer...

Peter has to find a way to put a big ol smooch on the cheeks (not saying which set) of whatever MASTER OF ELECTRONICDOM that crushed the last effort and/or BUILD THE DARNED THING IN A COUNTRY where legal agreements actually mean something and just shove high resolution auto-EQ in a box with top notch connectivity(XLR might actually be nice in my book, but if low noise circuit design and topology gets 99% of the benefit...), modern OSD, high quality DAC chips, vanishingly low noise floor, non-disco party display and a front panel that looks like it belongs in my living room not up on the high bank at Talledega... Be nice if the list price did not have four digits in it either...

Originally Posted By: THX Jay
I posted something about this in one of the other threads, but what is everyone looking for in a mid-priced processor?

I can do without balanced connections and a lot of the legacy connections, but dual, stereo sub outputs would be great. Auto Room EQ would be really useful (I'd pay a little extra for Audyssey's XT32 with the bass/sub correction). I would also like a front display you could turn off. I liked the thought process behind the 975 of "trimming the fat" and going for sound quality over everything else, and I would love the next pre/pro to include these features.

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#93414 - 08/09/13 07:27 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: THX Jay]
sdurani Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 765
Loc: Monterey Park, CA
Originally Posted By: THX Jay
...what is everyone looking for in a mid-priced processor?
Personally, I'm looking for "processing" in a mid-priced "processor". In this case it would mean the latest surround processing (PLIIz, Neo:X) and competent room correction (XT32). Problem is, DSP chipsets and licensing fees can add up, making a couple of my favourite features conflict with one of Outlaw's main features: affordable pricing.
_________________________
Sanjay

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#93422 - 08/13/13 09:50 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: sdurani]
happy2 Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 21
Loc: NH
I was ready to buy the 997/998 with Trinnov (almost bought Sherwood's version to use as a pre-pro), but rarely check the Outlaw forums anymore as nothing is happening here. Probably will now either go with the Emotiva XMC-1 with Dirac which looks like it will be released at Emofest the beginning of Sept., or wait for the higher end RMC-1 version. Would be interested if they came out with a state of the art class D amp like the nCore nc400.

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#93423 - 08/14/13 07:30 AM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
Jim Hooper Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 29
Loc: Warren, Mi.
The Anthem MRX line of receivers seem to have gone over well. I know that we are not comparing apples to apples here. But, the success of the MRX line of receivers, is proof that there is a market for a "networkless" processor with the emphasis placed on audio. Room correction is also a MUST have !

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#93738 - 12/02/13 02:43 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
Hank Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/30/01
Posts: 348
Loc: Austin, Texas, USA
What the 978 was supposed to be, but I do not want room correction? Doesn't everyone realize that room correction will "correct" the sound at the sweet spot only?
_________________________
"Do you expect me to talk?"
"No Mr. Bond, I expect you to die!"

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#93739 - 12/02/13 09:10 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: Hank]
sdurani Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 765
Loc: Monterey Park, CA
Originally Posted By: Hank
Doesn't everyone realize that room correction will "correct" the sound at the sweet spot only?
Everyone doesn't, because it's not true.

The only way correction will be limited to the sweet spot is if you measure only from the sweet spot.

However, if you measure from multiple seats, then most room correction systems will correct problems that are common to those seats.
_________________________
Sanjay

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#93740 - 12/03/13 12:46 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: sdurani]
renov8r Offline
Desperado

Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 336
Loc: Illinois
In fact the better room correction systems offering higher resolution are specifically designed to be used in the manner sdurani describes -- multiple measurements from multiple points in the room.

If you have not heard the difference that MultiEQ-XT (or the even more tweakable PRO variant or even more precise MultiEQ-XT32/Pro ... http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/multeq/flavors) can make with even a VERY high end system it is frankly astounding. I was more than a little skeptical before I heard the very very nice Wisdom system but it is really a night & day sort of difference that makes the whole experience noticeably better NO MATTER where you sit / stand in a properly running system in even a very large room.

The key is that with the high resolution filters and a high quality system the software is truly calculating both the frequency related problems AND the time domain issues then applying filters that allow the most performance for all measured positions -- http://www.wisdomaudio.com/products_sc-1.php

The "guts" of the algorithm are in the chipset that Audyssey licenses and from discussions with technical people at Wisdom and some of the other respected audio manufacturers the certification that Audyssey goes through is pretty thorough so the potential variation IN THE SOFTWARE is eliminated. Of course that still leaves lots of room for a whole lot of other digital noise to impact the rest of the chain, to say nothing of the various limitations of the analog part of the reproducing equipment so it still makes a lot of sense to get as a high quality system as one can reasonably afford...

And Audyssey is not alone in this style of room correction -- the Trinnov system is also strongly oriented toward making the whole '3D sound space' as realistic for as many listeners as possible: http://www.trinnov.com/technologies/loudspeaker-room-optimization/concept-6/ A very similar philosophy is also the foundation of the RoomPerfect system from Steinway-Lyngdorf http://www.steinwaylyngdorf.com/technology-and-innovation/roomperfect (I believe KRK was forced to cancel their Ergo product based on the same technology -- http://www.krksys.com/manuals/ergo/KRK_ERGO-Brochure.pdf) Although Anthem chooses not the highlight the "3D" aspects of their system the fact is they also build their system with MULTIPLE room measurements in mind: http://www.anthemav.com/downloads/ARC-1_PDS.pdf



In short folks that DO NOT UNDERSTAND what these systems actually achieve are perhaps the single greatest impediment to manufacturers pushing even more mathematically complex implementations down into the more affordable products. Of course it does not help that so few people even visit a retail showroom to actually LISTEN to the very noticeable improvements capable with with such a system but that is a whole other issue...

I will add that the I am not sure if there isn't a problem with marketing these systems as "auto room correction" -- there has been research that shows "flattest response" is not really the goal. Listeners judge the best sounding system to be not necessarily closest to spectrum neutral but that which gives the most pleasing spectral balance and factors in the room gain: http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/11/subjective-and-objective-evaluation-of.html and also http://dagogo.com/lyngdorf-rp-1-roomperfect-room-correction-device-review

Finally, in the context of what these means for firms like Outlaw, that frankly NEED a competitive advantage if they are to remain relevant, I would hope they somehow "partner" with firms that care more about advancing the overall technology than being a "me too" audio firm. Seems very likely that in an increasingly "venture capital" driven economy the potential for creating a real physical product that builds off the something like Open Source Software could be a real game changer -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_room_correction#Open_Source_Implementations





Originally Posted By: sdurani
Originally Posted By: Hank
Doesn't everyone realize that room correction will "correct" the sound at the sweet spot only?
Everyone doesn't, because it's not true.

The only way correction will be limited to the sweet spot is if you measure only from the sweet spot.

However, if you measure from multiple seats, then most room correction systems will correct problems that are common to those seats.

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#93997 - 03/11/14 08:13 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
mdrconsult Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 126
Loc: Austin, Texas
OK, I want to bring this back up one more time. This time I'd like a comment by someone at Outlaw, Nancy maybe you could enlighten us?

Is there anything on Outlaw's road map that resembles a new processor? The 975 is cool, but I'm really looking for something higher end. I remember well the huge debacle of a few years ago when we were promised (endlessly) the next new processor was just around the corner. And I'm sure there are people at Outlaw that are still reeling from that mess. I'm not asking for anything as detailed as that, but it would be nice if you could say something like, "we are working on something and hope to have announcement sometime this year" or "we currently do not expect to have any new processor announcements this year", either way is fine. I just think it would be nice if we had some sort of "semi official" word from Outlaw on the prospect of a new higher end (relative to the 975) processor.

Thank You in advance for your consideration in this matter.
_________________________
Emotiva XMC-1, Outlaw 7500, Sonus Faber Olympica III Fronts, SF Liuto Center, SF Surrounds, LFM-1 EX, Oppo BDP-103D, Apple TV (Gen. 4), Mitsubishi 65" Diamond DLP, Outlaw Cables, PS Audio Power Quintet, Duet and power cords.

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#93998 - 03/12/14 04:53 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
Outlaw Nancy Offline

Gunslinger

Registered: 02/11/13
Posts: 167
OK. We are currently working a few new products, one of them is a processor. Sorry, it is too early to give you more info regarding the timing. Stay Tuned!

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#93999 - 03/13/14 12:25 AM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
mdrconsult Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 126
Loc: Austin, Texas
Nancy, Thank You for your response. Obviously not exactly the answer I was hoping to get.

I was hoping you could narrow it down to this year, next year or longer. I really want to get rid of my Onkyo, I have been wholly under-whelmed from the moment I got it. I've been waiting and waiting for something from Outlaw. Although the 975 looks good, it's just doesn't have all that I'm looking for in a modern processor. If I knew something was coming in the next year or so I could hang on. But with Outlaw not providing any clear direction I can't see how I can justify waiting any longer. I hate to say it, but I think you're loosing another loyal Outlaw customer.

To the rest of the Saloon, I guess I'm going to start shopping for a new processor. Any recommendations for a processor in a price range of $1.5-3K, preferably the lower end, but for the right features and quality I would pay more. Obviously I will look at the Marantz systems Outlaw is reselling, but to be honest I have never been a fan of Marantz products. For those that remember, the proposed 978 from Outlaw would have really filled the bill for me. Here are a few things that are key to me:

1) GREAT Audio Quality!
2) Room Correction
3) XLR Pre-Amp out, I have long runs to my amps
4) Ease of configuration and management

All the rest of the bells and whistles are nice, but not critical to me.
_________________________
Emotiva XMC-1, Outlaw 7500, Sonus Faber Olympica III Fronts, SF Liuto Center, SF Surrounds, LFM-1 EX, Oppo BDP-103D, Apple TV (Gen. 4), Mitsubishi 65" Diamond DLP, Outlaw Cables, PS Audio Power Quintet, Duet and power cords.

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#94000 - 03/13/14 04:51 AM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
sdurani Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 765
Loc: Monterey Park, CA
Originally Posted By: mdrconsult
To the rest of the Saloon, I guess I'm going to start shopping for a new processor. Any recommendations for a processor in a price range of $1.5-3K, preferably the lower end, but for the right features and quality I would pay more.
I wouldn't spend that kind of money until seeing what was announced at CEDIA in September.
_________________________
Sanjay

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#94001 - 03/13/14 10:25 AM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
ndskurfer Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/27/08
Posts: 120
Loc: Bismarck, ND
Originally Posted By: mdrconsult
If I knew something was coming in the next year or so I could hang on.


If you look back in the 997 thread, I believe I may have said something very similar to this back in 2008. That was 6 years ago...

I would look at what is available now. I waited because of that carrot that was hanging out there in front of us the entire time, and I appreciate that Outlaw isn't using that strategy now. I have since upgraded processors, but will likely do it again once something comes along similar to what what you described, but at an affordable price point. I currently own a processor very similar to the 975 for now.

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#94002 - 03/14/14 08:31 AM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
Strider53 Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 38
Loc: Detroit
So its been what, 18 months or so since the cancellation of the 978?
Too early to start the speculation on what a new processor should have/not have?

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#94003 - 03/14/14 06:07 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: sdurani]
renov8r Offline
Desperado

Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 336
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: sdurani
Originally Posted By: mdrconsult
To the rest of the Saloon, I guess I'm going to start shopping for a new processor. Any recommendations for a processor in a price range of $1.5-3K, preferably the lower end, but for the right features and quality I would pay more.
I wouldn't spend that kind of money until seeing what was announced at CEDIA in September.


The fact is that the "landscape" for the kind of product that many of us want to see is not all that compatible with the "marketing plans" of the big guys in the audio business. One of those "big guys" basically was responsible for "knifing the baby" that was supposed to what we were hoping for...

The other thing that is undeniable is that the "goal posts" do keep moving -- there is no doubt that 4K is bigger deal to the geniuses in marketing for the big guys than any actual customers, just as 3D was far more important to the marketing bozos than consumers! That said there are other moving targets that seem to be a LOT easier to hit -- high bit rate audio formats, greatly expanded codecs for multichannel, installation / setup menus that don't look overly geeky, some easy way to relate the value of such a purchase to life partners perhaps through easy integration with existing smart remote systems...

I do think that the big guys will be touting 4K pre-pros at CEDIA and my gut says that since the firms that make the chipsets for this are almost certainly overstocked that does create one of those situations where it is practically cheaper to go with the "latest and greatest" than to try to go forward with what are now "legacy" chipsets.

I continue to think that the same kind of disaster of having a Chinese manufacturer "back out at the last minute" is every bit as likely NOW as it happened before. I similarly think the hard core world of really committed tinkerer-level manufacturing is growing. With 3D printers being widely availble it ought to be possible to "mock up" the often tricky physical layout of an innovative piece of home audio in a fraction of the time / money than it took with older methods. Similarly with the right kind of connections to individuals /firms that have launched things at Kickstarter and/or been on teams with open source efforts like ardunio or raspberry pi one could get the "core" of a design team that would work right in the USA or globally through remote connections. Once everything was at the right stage it might be possible to then bring a "ready to hit the production line" concept / prototype to the kinds of onshore contract electronics firm that maybe have seen business from DOD fall off due to cutbacks / lack a real demand for "Amazon PrimeDrones" and then get the whole thing moving forward at far more affordable level and with greatly accelerated roll out.
Maybe I am too much of a dreamer and the big guys that continue to make "me too" products that are overpriced and overcomplicated can get by with continuing to squeeze the little guys. Maybe the technical, legal and financial hurdles that continue to plague the other "little guy" direct-to-consumer audio products firm are evidence that things cannot be overcome. It is frustrating to see this as just a potential purchaser and most be positively maddening for folks that demand on this business as their livelihood...

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#94004 - 03/14/14 11:38 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: renov8r]
sdurani Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 765
Loc: Monterey Park, CA
Originally Posted By: renov8r
I do think that the big guys will be touting 4K pre-pros at CEDIA...
Oh it's going to be a lot more than that. The tag-line for this year's CEDIA Expo is "hyper change", because there is a perfect storm coming with a trifecta of new technologies in audio (object-oriented), video (4K) and connectivity (HDMI 2.0). And all of it happening simultaneously. Hard enough for the big guys to keep up with, even with their massive purchasing power and economies of scale. Imagine how much more difficult it must be for smaller independent companies like Outlaw.


Edited by sdurani (03/14/14 11:39 PM)
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Sanjay

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#94014 - 03/16/14 05:41 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: sdurani]
EEman Offline
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Agreed. There's no way Outlaw is going to be first to market with the latest technology. They are, in my opinion, a "me too" company with the added bonus of not compromising previous performance for the sake of new technology. Or stated another way, the Outlaw paradigm is to provide proven technologies in an architecture that gives the greatest bang for the buck.

Originally Posted By: sdurani
Originally Posted By: renov8r
I do think that the big guys will be touting 4K pre-pros at CEDIA...
...Imagine how much more difficult it must be for smaller independent companies like Outlaw.
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#94022 - 03/17/14 03:56 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
renov8r Offline
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See the thing is that I really do believe that there is still a whole lot of potential for someone with the right mix of ideas to make a profound difference in the direction of direct-to-consumer audio / home theater products.

From what I know about working in larger organizations there is a whole bunch of concern about "keeping the front line sellers happy" and that typically involves all kinds of decisions about things that happen before anyone has really made any decisions / designs for a "new" product -- things like having a "good/better/best" range of offerings, giving buyers reasons to "move up" to the more profitable product, making compromised on the 'entry level' offerings...

Don't get my wrong, I completely with EEman that it is exceedingly unlikely that any of the "big guys" that sit on the standards boards for things like HDMI or 4K will willingly allow a tiny firm like Outlaw or similar direct-to-consumer firm make a huge leap in terms of TIME TO MARKET for these technologies BUT I do think that there is probably a way to profitably sell something VERY "up to date" inside the price framework that exists.

Right now:

Outlaw Model #975 $549

next "step up" is

Marantz AV7701 $1699

above that is

Marantz AV8801 $3599


(yes I know about open box specials / combos / refurbs, but those are current 'normal' selling prices)

Seems to my with eleven hundred bucks between the entry model OR nineteen hundred bucks between the 7701 & its big brother there is room for something in either category. The amount of features that are in even the 7701 seems excessive to me -- the darn thing supports TWO FULL zones with HDMI and a THIRD zone with audio. Really, who uses those "features"? It has been capable of 4K upscaling since its introduction, how many people could possibly be using that?

Heck look at all these inputs:
HDMI In: 7 (including front HDMI input)

Component In: 3

Composite In: 4

HDMI Out: 3 (2 x Simultaneous, 1 x Zone 2)

Component Out: 1

Composite Out: 2

Analog L&R In: 6

And networking:

Networking: AirPlay, DLNA 1.5 certified Audio/Photo Streaming, Internet Radio, Streaming service capability (Pandora/SiriusXM/flickr and Spotify)

Just create a less "glitzy" pre-pro that is "handicapped" in only doing 4K video pass-thru / source switching, sane amounts of inputs, all the various codes and TOP NOTCH high resolution / narrow bandwidth computerized audio equalization for a much more attractive price and I would be thrilled to spend something quite a bit more than double what the 975 sells for ...

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#94034 - 03/19/14 11:34 AM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
gonk Offline
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I have felt for many years (and posted about it repeatedly along the way) that the "everything plus the kitchen sink and turbocharged garbage disposer" approach to surround receivers and processors is detrimental to consumers and smaller manufacturers for a couple of reasons. First, it incorporates a lot of source functionality into a processing/switching device - functionality that is currently very subject to planned or unintended obsolescence, and that can be achieved separately just as easily (and often with better interface and feature sets). Second, it makes an already-difficult product development process significantly more challenging, both in capital expenditures and in overall design quality. That makes it harder for the smaller brands (brands that are more likely to prioritize the consumer's overall experience) to develop new products. It also makes marketing products that forego the "kitchen sink" feature set approach difficult, even though they actually provide a better value to consumers.

I still am pretty comfortable with my Marantz AV7005, although after we finish our renovation this year I am seriously considering replacing it with a Model 975. I may also try a Model 975 while we're moved out of the house. Like renov8r, I still like the idea of a Model 975 "big brother" that leaves off or prunes back many of the same things (no networking, limited analog support) but offers a healthy supply of digital inputs, good audio processing (including some auto setup/room correction goodies would be nice), good analog audio section, and perhaps some good video processing to go with the video switching. If the industry would quit changing HDMI versions, developing something like that would be a lot easier.
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#94036 - 03/19/14 05:01 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
candyman Offline
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Originally Posted By: mdrconsult
To the rest of the Saloon, I guess I'm going to start shopping for a new processor. Any recommendations for a processor in a price range of $1.5-3K, preferably the lower end, but for the right features and quality I would pay more. Obviously I will look at the Marantz systems Outlaw is reselling, but to be honest I have never been a fan of Marantz products. For those that remember, the proposed 978 from Outlaw would have really filled the bill for me.


I am/was in a similar situation. My Outlaw 990 has been the processor in my primary system for about 8 years now. I was hopeful and waited for the 997 and 978 as potential replacements. Obviously that didn't happen for well documented reasons. I have no disappointment in Outlaw, just that it eliminated a potential candidates from the replacement list. I do believe Outlaw is currently overcompensating from the 997/978 experiences by not sharing future information on an upcoming processor.

I looked at a used Marantz AV7005 and new AV7701 and AV8801. The AV7005 & AV7701 don't have the room correction I'm seeking so they aren't long term solutions. The AV8801 was better but doesn't have the desired value proposition. I added the Yamaha CX-A5000 to the potential list and, through my research, felt it was a bit better than the AV8801 but wasn't willing to pay $3k for it.

At this point, I've taken a short/long approach. I picked up a B-stock Outlaw 975 on the current sale--nice price--as a short term solution. I lose my 990s XLR pre-amp outs and it won't have room correction. It gives me HDMI (finally), supports newer processing technologies, and saves me money to fix or replace my TV which is exhibiting video problems. The 975 just arrived so I'll have a few weeks to evaluate it. If the 975 meets my short term goals and provides the desired benefits, I get an interim upgrade while I continue my search for a long-term replacement.

Rob
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#94043 - 03/20/14 12:19 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
casey01 Offline
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Registered: 01/04/10
Posts: 39
Just when they were becoming available at retailers and I wanted a good somewhat "future proof" Pre-Pro, I decided to "bite the bullet" and purchase the Yamaha CX-A5000 and I am certainly glad I did. I have always been kind of a Yamaha fan anyway but after years of rumours and cajoling, they finally brought out a unit along with(if someone is so inclined)a 11 channel amp. I already had my Outlaw amps in place so I only needed the processor. I think you will find that the street price on the unit is several hundred dollars less than the MSRP so that shouldn't be an issue. The ultimate 11.2 potential outputs(both bal. and unbal.) are mind bongling, however, I use it in a 9.2 configuration and it works wonderfully and, by the way, solidly built and weighs 30 pounds, a lot even for a Pre-Pro.

I looked at the Marantz 8801 myself, however, the price really couldn't be justified especially compared to the Yamaha. With its top quality DACs, along with many other features, the press, so far, has been raving about it and although biased, I couldn't agree more in their assessment. This is something I won't be replacing for the foreseeable future.

The only negative is, that in North America you can get any colour you want, "as long as it is black". In some other parts of the world, in addition to the black, Yamaha offers this unit in optional silver and champagne colours which I would have really preferred much like they used to have with their separates back in the eighties and nineties and their last "flagship" AVR offered in the optional champagne , the RXV1 which I still have sitting on one of my racks in another room.


Edited by casey01 (03/20/14 12:21 PM)

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#94047 - 03/20/14 07:44 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
renov8r Offline
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The folks from Crestron seem to have a hatched a RECEIVER to feed the hungry maw of custom installers that can foist anything on their naive clients -- http://www.electronichouse.com/product/details/hd-xspa/

$5500 MSRP

Ooooooooooookie Dokey!

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#94049 - 03/20/14 10:43 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
gonk Offline
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I'm not surprised by that - they probably needed this platform or something similar for commercial installations, and it wouldn't be hard to do a version that they could offer for consumer/residential clients. I was just looking at some Crestron cutsheets a couple weeks ago, trying to figure out heat gain for a storage closet in a new hotel that was being changed into an AV equipment closet, and they seemed to have a pretty extensive assortment of HDMI-related offerings. I bet it would be convenient for a custom installer to use one of these if he's doing a full Crestron control setup for a big home theater installation. Personally, I'll pass...
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#94055 - 03/22/14 02:59 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
sdurani Offline
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Looking at the back panel of the Crestron receiver, it's obvious that its feature set is more geared towards custom installation and home automation. I mean, look even at the speaker connectors. This isn't for consumers



It's like seeing the price of a riding mower made for golf courses and saying 'whoa, too expensive for my front lawn'. Well, it wasn't made for residential lawns.
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#94068 - 03/24/14 09:14 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
renov8r Offline
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Did yo post links to the OLDER model. HD-XSP http://www.crestron.com/resources/produc...166&id=2424 That said it is not really all that different --

This newer unit is still targeted at custom installers, but includes features are more consumer oriented like 4K video pass thru and two-channel downmix... "The Crestron HD-XSPA makes it easy to put great surround sound in any room of the house"

The thing too is that if anybody follows the other AV products Crestron continues to support it is pretty clear that products like their PROCISE PSPHD processor were targeted very much at consumers that would have also considered products like Outlaw's still born prepro -- The saddest part is that the capabilities of even the now four / five year old http://www.electronichouse.com/article/sneak_peek_crestron_73_procise_surround_processor/ $11K MSRP pre-pro are now eclipsed by far more affordable units... The PSPHD also incorporated things like more standard XLR connectors and Audyssey technologies including MultEQ XT...

I really don't see the comparison to "professional lawn maintenance equipment". Firms like Onkyo continue to market their Integra line through custom installation specialists for use in homes.

It is not like the Crestron products are really designed for commercial sound reinforcement or the kind of applications
that churches and similar "gathering" spaces might utilize -- http://www.roland.com/professional/products_video.html

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#94069 - 03/25/14 03:54 AM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
sdurani Offline
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Riding mowers made for golf course sized lawns are sold to professionals, just as the Crestron receiver is "still targeted at custom installers". I really don't see the point of comparing pro gear to consumer gear, unless you're looking for an easy opportunity to feign sticker shock at what "naive clients" are willing to buy.
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#94072 - 03/25/14 03:39 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
renov8r Offline
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There is nothing to feign about when it comes to this gear. Crestron's new product is at a price point that cannot be justified by its feature set or performance. While I cannot disagree that Crestron products are largely designed to answer the needs of custom installers the fact is that the features of the newly introduced product are not competitive with offerings from other firms that also incorporate features for whole house audio / boardroom presentation type installations.

In addition to the aforementioned products from Integra that come with features like HDBaseT for sending AV signals and control info over standard ethernet cables -- http://www.soundandvision.com/content/integra-dhc-605-network-av-controller at an MSRP of $2000 there are also products from the ES division of Sony that have on-board Control4 integration at a similar price -- http://www.in-homeautomation.com/store/sony-str-da5800es-with-full-control4-automation.html

This is not "pro gear" in anything other than price and one would have to be extremely naive to not understand that products marketed in a way that encourages deceptive practices are a bad direction for the overall industry. Even when it comes to ultra-pricey gear from specialty firms it would be hard to argue such things are not intended for use in "normal" homes -- http://www.thetadigital.co/casablanca_iv_controller_info.shtml though at least firms like ATI/Theta are a bit more honest in targeting their appeal / value to the wise but still "luxury" buyer. To play with the analogy of lawncare it is clear that some firms really do have the oomph to deliver superior results while other firms are marketing products with similar price tags but lacking in performance --

http://www.scag.com/lawnstriping.html vs http://www.mowersdirect.com/Craftsman-37488-Lawn-Mower/p11073.html

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#94077 - 03/26/14 04:11 AM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: renov8r]
sdurani Offline
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Originally Posted By: renov8r
Crestron's new product is at a price point that cannot be justified by its feature set or performance.
You're stating your subjective opinion as an objective fact. Of course the price point can be justified, just not to you. But custom installers I've spoken to would prefer this solution compared to buying an audio/video receiver and a Crestron processor, since it takes up less space and costs less.
Originally Posted By: renov8r
This is not "pro gear" in anything other than price and one would have to be extremely naive to not understand that products marketed in a way that encourages deceptive practices are a bad direction for the overall industry.
It is pro gear, since this receiver is typically installed by custom installers (not consumers) and its automation is programmed by Crestron programmers (not consumers).
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#94090 - 03/27/14 03:52 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
gonk Offline
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Sanjay is right that Crestron is pro gear - I walked across the discarded boxes from dozens of small Crestron components (I expect mostly wall jacks, control modules, and the like) yesterday morning while at a jobsite. Pro feature set requirements will always differ from the consumer requirements, with fewer "bells and whistles" and more control functionality. The level of support available to installers, scale of that control capability, and internal build quality (needed to allow such gear to stay in place and working for a very long time) go a long way toward justifying the high price compared to an Onkyo or Sony product that costs far less and has a lot of extra features that a hotel ballroom/conference center or office board room have no use for.
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#94095 - 03/27/14 10:06 PM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: gonk]
renov8r Offline
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Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 336
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: gonk
... more control functionality. The level of support available to installers, scale of that control capability, and internal build quality (needed to allow such gear to stay in place and working for a very long time) go a long way toward justifying the high price compared to an Onkyo or Sony product that costs far less and has a lot of extra features that a hotel ballroom/conference center or office board room have no use for.


I agree with sanjays's response about the "packaging efficiency" because I do agree that is a "plus" of the Crestron rxvr, in some jobs that might even be reason enough to go with the product, though I don't doubt that given the 975's compact dimensions a similar diminutive unit ought not be to hard to engineer with off the shelf class D power...

That said seems gonk is venturing into the "subjective" with rest of their comments?

I might concede a point on "level of support" but the custom installation folks I talk to generally tell me that increasingly it is not Crestron that sets the bar for making the task of creating a well integrated system achievable but firms like Control4.

Similarly the feedback from not just custom installers but folks who've bought stuff from "grey" channels does not support the myth that products with esoteric labels on 'em are somehow of a greater 'longevity' than high quality gear from well known sources.

I would even suggest that it is largely impossible to say that these sorts of products really deliver any greater "control functionality" than more feature rich products from firms that do respond to the feedback of a wide range of dealers, custom installers and 'regular' customers -- the fact is Integra and Sony-ES are NOT just "labels" but represent an sub-speciality of their parent firms that are in many ways more responsive than the more 'mainstream' companies overall AV organization, they have more resources available to quickly tailor the offerings of each product in their line-up than firms that are much smaller.


Finally I have been part of enough "build outs" of my own home, offices that I have worked in and even community type organizations that the "legacy" of architects and designers spec'ing not what is REALLY best suited for a particular job but what is most easily obtained often does mean that wide availability "wins out" over "best in breed" UNLESS someone is especially educated / passionate about not going with the herd. This is not "subjective" it is what I have seen OVER AND OVER in not just the little odds and ends of connectors or routine things like plumbing fixtures and such but even MASSIVELY costly things like UPS/DBG, FSSs, CRACs & PDU/RPPs for huge data projects.

I certainly agree that firms like Crestron do everything they can to crowd-out true innovation and discourage competition from their entrenched markets in ways that make the anti-competitive practices of firms in the consumer space that have hindered Outlaw's progress toward new pre-pros seem positively tame by comparison. I know our good hosts here avoid using the forum to besmirch their competitors as much as possible but one might wonder if the Outlaw's have not been harassed by companies that do recognize their value priced products do threaten the high margins they can command from folks that are increasingly capable of doing a little comparison shopping...


Edited by renov8r (03/27/14 10:10 PM)

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#94096 - 03/28/14 01:22 AM Re: Outlaws Next Pre/Pro? [Re: mdrconsult]
gonk Offline
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The justification I referred to was solely for custom installers - which are Crestron's target audience. I don't think Crestron has much interest in developing much market presence for normal consumers, which is why they don't fit logically into the marketplace from a cost/feature set standpoint. I also doubt they see Outlaw as a threat, both because of the disparity in pricing and because of the disparity in target audiences.

I would say that a Crestron-based system that was properly assembled should offer a professional installer a much easier path to the sort of control functions that a commercial installation needs. The controls that an Outlaw customer would need will include audio switching, video switching, trigger(s) for power amps, and a decent universal remote to control multiple components without playing musical remote. Beyond that, we get into DSP functions like bass management and surround processing, which are important for home theater but not really what I was thinking about. If you want to control a projection screen or dim your lights, you're not going to ask your surround processor to be responsible for tying those things together. The functions involved in commercial work extend beyond that, sometimes far beyond it. Integration with a lighting control system (Lutron, Strand, etc.), integration with motorized projection screens, integration with motorized window shades, and multiple touch-screen control panels are just some of the pieces that come into play. That is where Crestron's roots trace back to. That's why I originally said "no thanks" to something like Crestron: it's including capabilities (or the ability to add capabilities) that have no place in my den.
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