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#88953 - 01/05/12 03:15 PM 1st
Bandido Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 9
Loc: OutlawLand
First? cool
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#88955 - 01/05/12 04:36 PM Re: 1st [Re: Bandido]
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Looks like it. I wonder if we'll see any of the HDS-12 beta testers around here?
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gonk
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#88956 - 01/05/12 05:34 PM Re: 1st [Re: gonk]
justhavingfun Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 86
Loc: Lansing, KS
I have been a fan of Outlaw audio for number of years starting with a 950 processor and a 755 five channel amplifier. I still use my 755 multichannel amp but processor was replaced with 990 and now replaced with Emotiva UMC-1 My home theater system is comprised of 7.2 channels. For front two channel is powered by Adcom GFA 5800 amp. Two powered subwoofers are in my system but only one subwoofer is active at a time depending on playing music or movies.
I have been looking to upgrade my 990 processor for a little while mainly due to HDMI switcher and high definition audio codec. One thing for sure, my 990 has been performing flawlessly all those years in my home theater setup without one glitch. However due to earlier mentioned limitation regarding HDMI capabilities, I was looking for processor upgrade. Naturally I was looking into Outlaw processor 978 for my next upgrade and still waiting. I have been reading everything I can about next possible home theater processor upgrade which includes some usual big names like Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Yamaha, Anthem, Pioneer, etc. as well as other internet direct sale company Emotiva. One thing common about all those other processors are that almost all of them have some type of issues big and small regarding HDMI problems. Some HDMI glitches that you can live with, while others are absolutely drive you crazy regardless which brands of that equipments.

After much reading, I have decided to purchase Emotiva UMC-1 even with all those well documented problems that users reporting in the forums. First it is cheap enough and has all the features that I was looking for in my home theater processor duty and although there seemed to be many unhappy owners, there were plenty happy owners as well when you consider its sound quality. So I took the chance, if I ended up not liking at all, I can hold until eventual Outlaw 978 introduction to the market and reevaluate my processor need. I received the UMC-1 early December last year and quickly hooked up everything replacing 990. This processor has its latest firmware installed by myself as soon as I received it. The installation went smoothly without too much trouble encountered; even their supposedly dreaded Emo-Q automatic room equalization went relatively trouble free. I did change few settings after Emo-Q ran through but generally all the settings were spot on to my liking.

Now for why I am writing this long post here, there were two issues related to UMC-1 and its HDMI problems and possible solution using upcoming HDS-12 developed by Transformative Engineering to be sold by Outlaw in near future. Here are my lists of equipments that are related to these issues:

Front projector: Panasonic PT4000

Sources: Sony BDP S550; Sony BDP S5000E; Time Warner Samsung HDMI/cable box;
Xbox 360; Wii; Xbox (older one)

Switcher: Monoprice switcher (component/optical)/HDMI to HDMI output

Processor: Emotiva UMC-1

HDMI cables: combination of Blue Jean and Monoprice

HDMI conditioner(?): Transformative Engineering HDS-12

What are my problems while using UMC-1? It involves with loosing video couple of seconds while watching a Time Warner cable channels and during Xbox 360’s certain game scene involving white flash something like flash/bang grenade. I don’t play games but my son was telling me about this and I witnessed the incident every single time he throws flash/bang grenade. But during Time Warner cable box playing, incident seems to be totally random. It loses video picture four or five times per hour although it comes right back, it was unacceptable situation. So I avoided this problem by hooking up using component and optical hook up until I can find the possible solution.

And out of nowhere I received this email from Outlaw asking if I was interested in beta tester for their new product called HDS-12, some type of HDMI conditioner. I quickly filled out their requested form just like everyone else did, fully expecting not to be picked. To my surprise, I got a call from Outlaw that I was selected to be their beta tester for this product. It was perfect timing for my problems. Within a week, I received the HDS-12 at my door step. This device is lot smaller than I thought. It is the size of typical multi USB switcher. It can be hide just about anywhere in your equipment rack.

My three sources (Time Warner cable box, Wii, Xbox 360) are connected using 30ft. long Blue Jean HDMI cable using switcher to UMC-1 and another 25ft. to my front projector. My two Bluray players are connected to UMC-1 using 6ft. long Monoprice HDMI cable. I tested all my HDMI cables to be good before I installed them. I installed HDS-12 before and after the UMC-1, just to check if it works out my video problems. And VOILA, this little device actually solved my video drop out problems. No more losing pictures during my Time Warner cable viewing! NOW I have to emphasize HDS-12 device worked out my HDMI video problems in MY HOME THEATER setup with MY EQUIPMENTS installed. With literally thousands of different HDMI combinations out there, this device may not work in your particular situation or it will possibly solve your HDMI conflicts like in my setup.

I do not understand its technical aspect of this device nor trying to figure it out but I am sure glad it works for me. I believe our very own Outlaw forum member 'gonk' knows lot more about this technology based on his posting from other site. I have been enjoying my home theater trouble free last several days watching various programs including couple of college BCS football games without losing one picture in the process. And I wanted to share this gem with others but I had to ask a permission from Outlaw staff. Finally earlier this afternoon, I had a call from Outlaw staff giving me a permission to share my findings with others.
This whole HDMI handshake debacle stumbles many of us but at least somebody out there trying to solve this issue for us. It is another piece of equipment that we have to deal with but I am glad companies like Outlaw and Transformative Engineering are providing us with an equipment that is more than just a signal booster. For now I am a very happy camper and enjoying my home theater. I know this is a long post but I wanted to be sure that I covered all the basics surrounding my problems and HDS-12 that I was beta testing. Hope you guys who have potential HDMI problems can be solved with this device.


Edited by justhavingfun (01/05/12 05:38 PM)
Edit Reason: to clear few things

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#88958 - 01/06/12 03:47 AM Re: 1st [Re: justhavingfun]
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Here's what I posted elsewhere:

I received the same email and was curious about it, as the description indicated that it was much more than a simple signal booster. I dug into it a bit to see if it was something I might be able to help beta test. While it doesn't appear likely that I could be of any meaningful help in testing it, I did learn some cool stuff while talking to Outlaw's partner Transformative Engineering (the designers of the device), and they have told me that I can share what I learned from them.

According to Transformative, their HDMI conditioner/splitter is not the same thing as a line amplifier. The conditioner/splitters do have an amplification component, but there are a ton of additional things happening. The common HDMI line amplifier is designed to compensate for signal level loss over a long length of cable due to resistance within the wire. Quite literally, it is just a signal amplifier, sort of like a phono pre-amp. Transformative's conditioner/splitter is an active product that reads the HDCP signal within an HDMI transmission. It uses that information to compensate for certain common problems. The problem that they focused on in our correspondence as being particularly important was insufficient stretch–timing. Stretch-timing is a protocol within HDCP that allows for the source device to communicate with the sink device and determine if it is a valid, legal connection. HDCP allows for a specific time for this “handshake” to complete. If the handshake is not completed within a pre-determined interval, the connection is deemed illegal and no display is allowed. Unfortunately, with long cable runs, and with the use of many HDMI Extender units, more time is necessary than some HDMI hardware is programmed for. Transformative's device is able to recognize the timing error and present the EDID at the "short" side of the connection, thereby allowing the HDCP handshake to be completed within the shorter time limit.

There are other features involved in these products that didn't fit with my needs (one reason I wasn't well-suited as a beta tester) but could be hugely important for members of their target audience. The conditioner/splitters provide multiple outputs (two on the HDS-12, four on the HDS-14) to simultaneously drive multiple displays with proper EDID transactions. They also provide signal amplification to compensate for signal loss just like a line amplifier, which becomes particularly important on long cable runs. So while they contain line amplifiers, that particular feature is actually secondary to their primary purpose of fixing HDCP errors between HDMI devices. Those errors are most commonly encountered by people with long cable runs (thus making the amp portion so useful) but are also an issue for some more typical cable lengths when dealing with problem equipment combinations.
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HT Basics | HDMI FAQ | Pics | Remote Files | Art Show
Reviews: Index | 990 | speakers | BDP-93

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#88963 - 01/06/12 02:55 PM Re: 1st [Re: gonk]
Bandido Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 9
Loc: OutlawLand
Although I was not picked to beta this device, I think this will fix my issue of occasional video dropouts I started to have from any source components (2 oppo bd players, TW cable box, xbox) connected to 1x5 switch through to 990 and outputs to 2x5 monoprice matrix switch outputting to panasonic plasma (10 feet distance) or panasonic projector (25 feet distance). It is a random issue and not frequent. I may decide to try it out.
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Outlaw 990/7500/M2200*Axiom M80/VP150/QS8/EP500*Yamaha DVD-C961B*Oppo BDP 83*Oppo BDP 93*Panasonic DMP-BD55*Vizio 4K P602ui-B3*Amazon FireTV 4K*Pioneer CD Jukebox*Panasonic PT-AE4000*xbox one*custom HTPC

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#89303 - 02/07/12 08:18 AM Re: 1st [Re: Bandido]
justhavingfun Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 86
Loc: Lansing, KS
So far this device works in my system as I reported about a month ago. The only minor problem that I encountered is when it is trying to lock into new hdmi source changing, it takes anywhere from few seconds to as long as 15 to 20 secounds. But once it is locked in, there is absolutely zero problem. Without this device in my system, my Time Warner cable box (Samsung) will loose the picture couple seconds few times an hour.

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#89702 - 03/11/12 04:33 PM Re: 1st [Re: justhavingfun]
justhavingfun Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 86
Loc: Lansing, KS
I am having little difficult time to lock in the signal. It used to be just few seconds and never lasted more than 20 seconds or so. But there are times the hdmi signal is not locking in at all unless I switched off completely and start over. I am not sure at this time it is constant problem yet. I will report back if this problem is becoming more frequent. This whole HDMI handshake issue is sucks!!! Hopefully it is isolated incident for my system.

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#90347 - 05/15/12 11:20 AM Re: 1st [Re: justhavingfun]
Dave K. Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/25/09
Posts: 27
I have a HD TiVo that I'd like to feed (via HDMI) to two TVs in adjacent bedrooms. Is this the device that I'd need to buy?

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#90358 - 05/16/12 09:13 AM Re: 1st [Re: Dave K.]
KOYAAN Offline
Desperado

Registered: 09/04/05
Posts: 358
Loc: Sanford NC
Originally Posted By: Dave K.
I have a HD TiVo that I'd like to feed (via HDMI) to two TVs in adjacent bedrooms. Is this the device that I'd need to buy?

It sounds like that would be a pretty good application.
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JVC AL-A158 Turntable
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LFM-1EX
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Family room:
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#90860 - 07/08/12 05:18 PM Re: 1st [Re: KOYAAN]
XenonMan Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2402
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
Now if we only had an Outlaw product to connect via HDMI. Hint, Hint. how about an update.
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Music system
Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD
APC H15 Power Conditioner

TV System
Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv


Home Theater System
Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv
Harmony ONE
Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects
APC H15 Power Conditioner

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