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#82556 - 02/24/10 02:29 PM Where do I set the X-Over settings for my speakers
dennisboldt Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 07/26/08
Posts: 1
Loc: St. Louis Missouri
I have a center DYNAUDIO center channel speaker
Two Unity Audio Fountain Head full range speakers FRONTS
TWO Unity Audio Fountain Head funll range speakers REARS
two parts express effect speakers in wall left and right center room.
What do I set the cross over setting at?
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#82558 - 02/24/10 06:16 PM Re: Where do I set the X-Over settings for my speakers [Re: dennisboldt]
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
I had to hunt a bit to find any info on the Unity Audio speakers, and in the process I think I found a link to your specific system on an old Audiogon forum post. In that post, you listed the range of the Fountainheads as 30Hz to 25kHz. If you have a subwoofer, I would recommend setting the fronts and surrounds to SMALL (which is required to apply bass management) and the crossover to either 40Hz or perhaps 60Hz - either could be appropriate, and whichever sounds best to your ear is the one to stick with. If you have a model number for the Dynaudio center, we could come up with a crossover or two to use for it as well. If in doubt, though, 80Hz is probably a good place to start with the center.

If you don't have a sub, all speakers except the center will be LARGE and the crossover settings for those large speakers won't matter because bass management won't be in effect. The center probably still deserves to be set to SMALL.
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#87275 - 06/30/11 05:12 PM Re: Where do I set the X-Over settings for my speakers [Re: gonk]
Kele Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 06/10/11
Posts: 13
New Outlaw, pertaining to the Model 990... I never used the low pass filter (X-Over) in my previous surround preamp (RIP); I ran all speakers full range (even though they arn't) and set my sub to its lowest cut-off so that it plays 50 hz and below.

Maybe that was a mistake all this time. The 990 almost requires that the cut-off be used. If I want the sub to function all the time, I have to select "small" speaker. I was depressed about this initially - especially for the mains which can play below 30 hz. HOWEVER!, because the mains now don't even see anything below 40 hz, they do sound cleaner and faster.

The center and surrounds play down to about 46 hz - my center speaker is a big ugly monster. I tried the 990's 40 thru 80 hz cutoffs for C/LR/RR speakers and the 60 hz has the cleanest integration. I hoped to use the same X-Over for all speakers so that the sub doesn't have to try to reproduce a range of cut-offs to include the associated delays. Seems the sub wouldn't be able to handle the nuances of multiple time shifted excursions. I have the mains at X-Over 40 and the others at 60. Probably the sub is smearing the lows (*). If I had a fast and articulate sub, I might try to cut all speakers to the sub at 60hz, but as is leave the mains at 40 to help the sub to do less. For now, the limitations of the sub is driving my sound set-up decisions.

* - I don't know if the sub content is time delayed to coincide with the surround speakers. If the X-Over and below (that goes to the sub) is not affected by other speaker distances, that would be a cleaner tighter signal to arrive at the sub or is my thinking skewed?

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#87280 - 06/30/11 09:55 PM Re: Where do I set the X-Over settings for my speakers [Re: Kele]
gonk Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Doing bass management properly (no doubling-up on signal playback) includes running speakers as small unless you have a true full range speaker (which is almost nonexistent). It's not uncommon for people to be leery of selecting "small" when they have physically large speakers (unfortunate side-effect of the decision made back in the 1990's to use the terms "small" and "large" to designate whether or not bass management was applied), but even a speaker that can play down to 30Hz or 40Hz (like the speakers you mention and the Paradigms I had for many years) are still not truly full range speakers. You will obtain a more even frequency response by letting the subwoofer do the job for which it was designed: playing the lowest octaves.

For your case, I'd definitely suggest experimenting (as you seem to be doing) with various crossover points. With the right sub, using a 60Hz crossover for the mains and 60Hz or even 80Hz for the center and surrounds will probably yield the optimal results.

Quote:
* - I don't know if the sub content is time delayed to coincide with the surround speakers. If the X-Over and below (that goes to the sub) is not affected by other speaker distances, that would be a cleaner tighter signal to arrive at the sub or is my thinking skewed?

Time delay will be happening after the crossovers, and the delays are meant to allow all speakers' outputs to reach the sweet spot at the same time. The sub gets a delay just like the other speakers, and that delay comes after the signals get redirected.
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#87287 - 07/01/11 03:07 PM Re: Where do I set the X-Over settings for my speakers [Re: gonk]
KOYAAN Offline
Desperado

Registered: 09/04/05
Posts: 358
Loc: Sanford NC
Hey Gonk,
I've lived with the 990 for some years now, but I never knew in what orser the processing layers were applied. How did you discover that the bass management was applied before the distance compensation?
I sincerly hope we'll meet sometime. I'd think I probably owe you about 20 beers by now.
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#87289 - 07/02/11 08:48 AM Re: Where do I set the X-Over settings for my speakers [Re: KOYAAN]
gonk Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
It has to be - that is the way effective bass management needs to work. The signals need to be redirected to different channels before you add the delay, otherwise your subwoofer signal gets a mix of delays and the output is "smeared" (for lack of a better term).
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#87292 - 07/02/11 02:15 PM Re: Where do I set the X-Over settings for my speakers [Re: gonk]
KOYAAN Offline
Desperado

Registered: 09/04/05
Posts: 358
Loc: Sanford NC
Originally Posted By: gonk
It has to be - that is the way effective bass management needs to work. The signals need to be redirected to different channels before you add the delay, otherwise your subwoofer signal gets a mix of delays and the output is "smeared" (for lack of a better term).

That certainly makes sense.
_________________________
HT:
990/770
Oppo BD83SE
Pioneer Elite DV-47A
Magnavox HDMR513h DVR/DVD-R
Sony DVD megachangers-2
Sony CD megachangers-2
Monster power centers-2
Sony 48" rear projection SDTV
Roku video player
JVC AL-A158 Turntable
Polk RT-2000s,CS-650,XS-650s,RT80s
LFM-1EX
Hsu VTF-1
12" Velodyne

Family room:
OPPO 970
Sony 32" direct view HDTV
Denon 3801
Rolk RMs

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#87304 - 07/03/11 02:36 PM Re: Where do I set the X-Over settings for my speakers [Re: KOYAAN]
Kele Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 06/10/11
Posts: 13
It does make sense and I'm glad the sub(s) receives the low fequencies once and not multiple times for each speaker delay. When I visit w/ others, I notice their stereo's sound and often hear a detachment and seperation between the sub (or base module) and the other speakers. I hear this in people's cars as well. The base is a seperate entity from the rest of the frequencies. I can do this with mine to some extent by boosting the sub volume. There is a [narrow] sub volume range that melds with the mains. If too low, the overall sounds is thin, and if the sub's volume is too high, the lower frequency range detaches itself from the whole. Just yesterday I busted out a system set-up cd with warble tones at ...80, 70, 60, 50 40 30 20 10 hz. With the disc, I listened for a change in volume where the mains cross over to the sub. That actually did help; I made a slight udjustment by about 10 minutes on the subwoofer's volume dial. IMO, the sub interface is the hardest to get right. Note that if the main speakers have mid/treble attenuators the base to sub can be fine tuned even more seemless.

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#87305 - 07/03/11 04:57 PM Re: Where do I set the X-Over settings for my speakers [Re: Kele]
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Much of the problem can be traced to calibration, as you've noticed - a lot of people run their subs too "hot", or with the subwoofer channel's trim too high.
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#87321 - 07/05/11 09:36 PM Re: Where do I set the X-Over settings for my speakers [Re: gonk]
Kele Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 06/10/11
Posts: 13
At the 990, I have the sub @ +15 (no attenuation). I do this so that the sub gets a "turn-on" signal even at a low master volume. If I run the sub where the 990 auto-calibrated it, I have to turn the stereo up pretty loud for the sub to kick in. I use the sub's own volume knob to adjust its volume. Remember we talked about surround (digital) vs analog volumes being much different with the 990? No more startles; I jacked up all the auto-calibration channel volumes relative to each other, and that did the trick. The only thing keeping me from making all channels as if +15 were actual zero is the sub. I max out with the other speakers at 990 channel calibration +12 in order to get the [my] sub to turn itself on early enough.

The low pass cut-off frequency thing is new to me... Sometimes I see my sub has tuended itself off after three minutes of no (or too low of a) signal. Wow, interesting... it's not because of the master volume, it's because there is no sound information below 40 Hz. This just occured to me; last night I saw the sub off and cranked the master volume to some rediculous number like -1 db and the sub stayed off. Back to -25 db and later the sub came on by itself when the "spaceship" rumble occured. I hear the "night mode" works and it does have a bearing on the sub's auto on/off. I could probably use the 990's Max night-mode (min dynamic range) and set all speaker's relative volume level to the sub at the point the sub remains on continuous (with just a trickle). I'm thinking out loud, but that would work to set how loud the master volume is when the sub turns itself on... I might need some pink noise or brown noise for that. I do like the sub to come on with low overall volume because more base is good at low volume.

I don't know what you traded your 990 for, Gonk, but it must be sweet. I'm still trippin' every time I hear my new stereo... the only thing different is the 990. How can it sound like I have more powerful amps and speakers is a mystery to me. All I can say is don't skimp on a preamp, it can make a huge difference!

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