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#85900 - 02/03/11 12:24 AM Re: Current 978 Feature List [Re: praedet]
hhop Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 02/02/11
Posts: 1
Does anyone know if the 978 will have balanced stereo inputs? I am getting an Oppo 95 which has this feature.

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#85901 - 02/03/11 07:37 AM Re: Current 978 Feature List [Re: hhop]
Patrick Williams Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 37
Loc: Brewster, NY USA
I don't think Outlaw has said one way or another about the balanced stereo inputs yet. One thing you may want to consider: Outlaw has said the 978 will ship with "state of the art" DAC's. I'm waiting to see exactly what they are before I commit to either the Oppo BDP-93 or 95. If the Outlaw has comparable DAC's to the Oppo 95, I will get the BDP-93 and use HDMI to take advantage of Audyssey XT32 in the 978.

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#85902 - 02/03/11 07:57 AM Re: Current 978 Feature List [Re: LightninBoy]
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Originally Posted By: LightninBoy
Right. Missed that detail. And it would be a shame to redigitize that signal from the BDP-95. I simply cannot understand why any modern pre/pro wouldn't provide bypass on the analog inputs.

The AVC-1800 was released around 2000 (that's the copyright date in the manual, at least). The Model 1050 receiver (released around the same time and admittedly not as expensive as the AVC-1800) didn't have a stereo analog bypass mode, either. Both have the ability for such a bypass by using the 5.1 analog input, which was often considered sufficient. After all, at the time most DVD players would have been connected via optical or coaxial and the multichannel analog input could be used for any more "exotic" analog sources. In hindsight, stereo analog bypass is a pretty useful feature for a lot of people.
_________________________
gonk
HT Basics | HDMI FAQ | Pics | Remote Files | Art Show
Reviews: Index | 990 | speakers | BDP-93

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#85907 - 02/03/11 03:09 PM Re: Current 978 Feature List [Re: gonk]
XenonMan Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2676
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
What would be the adsvantages of balanced stereo inputs, other than being able to run longer cables?
_________________________
Music system
Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD
APC H15 Power Conditioner

TV System
Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv


Home Theater System
Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv
Harmony ONE
Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects
APC H15 Power Conditioner

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#85914 - 02/04/11 02:37 PM Re: Current 978 Feature List [Re: XenonMan]
EricTheBlue Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/04/11
Posts: 35
Loc: Denver CO
I can think of three things, but in terms of performance are nominal and highly conditional:
1: If the source's output is a balanced signal and the 978's input balanced, you maintain a highly noise & distortion resistant signal between the components.
2: A potentially more secure physical connection versus RCA (negated if a locking RCA connector is used)
3: If the 978 is located in a electrically noisy environment (ie-PC nearby), a balanced cable should offer better noise rejection than say, a cheddar-cheese (poorly shielded) RCA cable.

In short, I don't think a balanced input on the 978 would offer much sonic improvement over a quality RCA connection; especially if the distance between components is short.

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#85915 - 02/04/11 02:55 PM Re: Current 978 Feature List [Re: EricTheBlue]
XenonMan Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2676
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
So really no compelling reason to jack up the price for little benefit. At some point we are just going to have to stop customizing the device so it can actually be constructed. There are probably devices to take balanced inputs and change them to RCA outputs without too much expense.
_________________________
Music system
Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD
APC H15 Power Conditioner

TV System
Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv


Home Theater System
Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv
Harmony ONE
Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects
APC H15 Power Conditioner

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#85916 - 02/04/11 03:35 PM Re: Current 978 Feature List [Re: XenonMan]
KOYAAN Offline
Desperado

Registered: 09/04/05
Posts: 358
Loc: Sanford NC
RCA/balanced converters are availble even at Radio Sgack and RCA/LCR cabels are availale from Monoprice. If your intrested in Balanced inputs to retain a fully balanced sound chain, however, I don't expect either will meet your needs.
I've never seen much difference in balanced and unbalanced connections , except far long cable runs.
_________________________
HT:
990/770
Oppo BD83SE
Pioneer Elite DV-47A
Magnavox HDMR513h DVR/DVD-R
Sony DVD megachangers-2
Sony CD megachangers-2
Monster power centers-2
Sony 48" rear projection SDTV
Roku video player
JVC AL-A158 Turntable
Polk RT-2000s,CS-650,XS-650s,RT80s
LFM-1EX
Hsu VTF-1
12" Velodyne

Family room:
OPPO 970
Sony 32" direct view HDTV
Denon 3801
Rolk RMs

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#85917 - 02/04/11 06:29 PM Re: Current 978 Feature List [Re: EricTheBlue]
EricTheBlue Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/04/11
Posts: 35
Loc: Denver CO
A feature I'd love to see on the 978 is virtual inputs. By virtual inputs I mean a system where during setup the input is first named by the user, then multiple properties assigned to it such as:
-number of active speakers
-crossover points per speaker
-individual speaker levels
-default surround mode
-apply video processing
-apply eq (including different types of eq: "flat", "normal", etc.)
-physical input (aka "connector" for purposes of this post). Important: one connector can be assigned -to multiple virtual inputs.
-physical output connectors (audio and video)

I've only owned one AV component that had this feature(Theta Casablanca prepro-sold long ago), and I miss it (feature) to this day. Let me provide a few examples of why virtual inputs would be useful.

If you have a single source (ie: HTPC) capable of serving multiple media types like audio and video, you would likely want different combinations of speakers and processing optimized for said media. For example, if you're listing to music you may only want two speakers (plus possibly a sub if they are bandwidth limited). For surround encoded movies you would probably want not only to add center and surround speakers, but a sub and auto-detect of movie surround mode. You may also want to tweak the sub level a bit versus what you used on music. Virtual inputs allow the user to configure all of this during initial setup.

Another example would be music playback. Though I often listen in stereo only, there are times that I prefer applying a music surround mode like DPLII music (live recordings). Virtual inputs make this easy while only using one physical connector (hdmi, coax, etc.) from a single source, and I did precisely this with the Casablanca prepro. Once configured all I had to do is select "stereo music" or "sur music" on my smart remote and two things would occur: Either engage 2 or 4 speakers and use stereo or matrix surround (Theta's ambiance extraction mode-very effective) as appropriate. Note that this could be applied on the fly while listening to music and as a result sold a couple of Casablancas for my dealer to friends who heard it. By the way, if you're wondering why I only used 4 speakers for music surround, this speaks to another advantage of virtual inputs. By default, Theta's matrix surround mode uses five speakers (plus sub if desired). However, in practice I found the center channel sound distracting for music so I disabled it for the surround input.

One more example involves subwoofers. With virtual inputs it would be very simple to preset subwoofer level, crossover, and even on/off per user-defined activity. So for music only, if you had a speaker that delivered very accurate bass down to say, 40hz, you could set up a "jazz/pop" virtual input that didn't use a sub. For large scale orchestral music, you could define a "classical" input that activates the sub and crosses it over at 40hz. You could set another one for rock that kick's the sub in at 60hz with as much or little bass boost as desired.

Note that though I used an HTPC as a multi-source example, virtual inputs would also be useful for CD/DVD/Blu-ray megachangers and even single disc players with Internet/remote media capabilities (Netflix, Youtube, etc.).

I know that some receivers and prepros ALMOST do this today. I know from first hand experience that at least mid to high end Onkyo and Denon components have a "personal memory plus" feature that can memorize different speaker levels and default surround modes per input. Some Denon models also have a "quick select" feature that I believe can mimic virtual input functionally. However, my Denon prepro (AVP-A1) only has three quick select inputs, and accessing them from the remote is less than intuitive.

Virtual inputs offer three other benefits:
-For novice users, they make the prepro very user-friendly. Once virtual inputs are bound to a smart remote like a Harmony, selecting a activity automatically also optimizes the prepro for said activity without user intervention.
-For Outlaw, virtual inputs could also make life easier for prepro design, as fewer physical inputs (connectors for purposes of this post) should be required, because a single connector can support multiple audio/video activities.
-For universal remote makers and users (especially Logitech Harmony), virtual inputs make set up a bit easier because for prepro configuration, beyond power on/off you would only have to know which virtual input relates to a given activity, as opposed to knowing all physical connectors involved.

The key to virtual inputs are two elements: inputs (discrete push buttons on the front of the prepro and remote), and connectors (physical inputs and outputs mainly on the rear of the prepro). On current receivers and prepros, connectors are typically labeled hdmi1, hdmi2, coax1, coax2, etc.). For virtual inputs to work all inputs and connectors must be pre-labeled by the manufacturer, and name of each label must be unique. This already occurs for all receivers and prepros I've encountered, but I would recommend one change for the a virtual input 978: Simply number the inputs sequentially from 1 to <highest numbered input offered by manufacturer>. Most manufacturers currently pre-label inputs by predicted function "TV, Music, Game", etc. and if the unit doesn't support virtual inputs, this method makes sense. However, for virtual inputs it's understood that the user will custom name the inputs during initial set up based on activity or function.

Virtual input downsides: I can think of a few.
-A bit more work will be required up front because several elements per input will have to be manually configured. However, if Outlaw were to use the "Copy Template" feature the Casablanca has, the input configuration effort would decrease significantly. With copy template, you only configure one input completely, then copy it to other ones you intend to use then tweak them as appropriate. Using this method I was able to configure six inputs for the Casablanca in ~ 20 minutes.
-Virtual inputs by definition practically require use of a learning remote that allows custom labeling of input buttons. The good news however is that you don't have to spend big money to get this kind of remote currently. Of course, Outlaw could provide such a remote if desired, but frankly I like Theta's approach with the Casablanca where they only provide a very inexpensive, basic, non-universal remote designed to only setup and operate the prepro itself. Theta (correctly IMO) concluded that owners of a prepro with Casablanca pricing would want to use their own smart remote to control the unit and system.
-Virtual inputs will likely cost a bit more (but I don't think much more) for some extra non-volatile memory to store multiple virtual input configurations.
-If you have a separate source component for each audio/video function you use, virtual inputs become less valuable (assuming Outlaw includes an equivalent version of personal memory plus per physical connection). However, even these users could still benefit from custom crossovers and speaker selection per input.

I apologize for the verbose post. I just think virtual inputs would be a very useful feature for any future Outlaw prepro.


Edited by EricTheBlue (02/04/11 06:48 PM)

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#85918 - 02/04/11 07:07 PM Re: Current 978 Feature List [Re: EricTheBlue]
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
I think that virtual inputs of some form would be an excellent idea - almost essential, even, since the tradition of tying inputs to physical analog connections (stereo analog and in some cases composite/S-video) no longer works with the input mix we're seeing on modern rear panels. The virtual inputs I'd like to see would allow HDMI, component, or composite inputs to be assigned for video and HDMI, coaxial, optical, stereo analog, or multichannel analog to be assigned for audio. For inputs of any kind (virtual or otherwise), input naming is a vital feature for me (huge WAF benefit) and having the ability to control video processing is high on my priority list. Per-input surround mode memory has been available in all of Outlaw's previous products, although having it defined in a menu can be tricky to implement without feeling confusing.
_________________________
gonk
HT Basics | HDMI FAQ | Pics | Remote Files | Art Show
Reviews: Index | 990 | speakers | BDP-93

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#85921 - 02/05/11 12:21 AM Re: Current 978 Feature List [Re: gonk]
EricTheBlue Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/04/11
Posts: 35
Loc: Denver CO
I agree that processing (not to mention post-processing) modes in general can be somewhat confusing, especially for casual users. My suggestion for virtual input configuration in terms of signal processing would be to default configure all of them with a "auto" setting for audio connections and passthrough for all video connections. Assuming the user can accurately map their source connections to the virtual input, they should at least get usable signals to amps and displays. Using this as a baseline users can learn, experiment, and tweak until they get the sound and picture they desire. Of course, the manual should convey what processing is applied by default for a given signal type.

Further, though configuring various parameters per input might seem complicated if implemented properly it's actually not hard to do. Again, I'll give kudos to the Theta Casablanca. Despite having a ton of configurable options in multiple menus, they designed it such that you can configure anything in any menu via three buttons (two opposed arrows and enter). They also cleverly designed the menus to focus on what your configuring while hiding the rest.

By the way, if sounds like I'm a Theta fanboy well, I am-and I'm not. The Casablanca is beautifully built, offers superb sound quality despite its age, and has been upgraded over the years. However, support for hdmi and the hidef audio codecs for movies literally became available just a few days ago. Then there's the issue of price... To give you an idea, the upgrade price to get hdmi v1.4 for the Casablanca will be 5k. This is more than three times what I suspect the 978 will sell for. By the way, the 5K price for hdmi assumes you have a Casablanca III. If you own older versions of the Blanca and I read the upgrade announcement correctly, you won't be able to upgrade it. Rather, these individuals will get UP TO 5K in credit for a new Casablanca III HD (the name of the hdmi-equipped prepro). Price of a new Blanca III HD: 15-20K depending on configuration. Even my current Denon AVP at 7.5K retail (and I didn't pay retail) is a bargain by comparison as it is competitive with the Blanca in terms of build and performance IMHO.

I think you see where I'm going with this. I'm lurking in the 978 forum because I suspect it's going to be my next prepro. Though I enjoyed my Casablanca and Denon AVP, I'm getting to a point where I value value most. I've never had room for dual systems (dedicated music and HT), so I've always needed a prepro that could do both well and my aforementioned units delivered. However, I also owned an Outlaw 990 previously (it replaced the Casablanca in fact) and I have to tell you that I found it musically satisfying and more than good enough for HT. Thus, if the 990 was enjoyable years ago, the 978 should be even more so and that's my point. I don't need the ultimate prepro anymore. I just need one that's good enough and I'm confident the 978 will be exactly that. FWIW, I'm currently using a 7700 power amp and I'm very happy with it.

Originally Posted By: gonk
...Per-input surround mode memory has been available in all of Outlaw's previous products, although having it defined in a menu can be tricky to implement without feeling confusing.


Edited by EricTheBlue (02/05/11 12:28 AM)

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