Just a couple of constructive(I think anyway) criticisms.

I just got my first Outlaw product today. It's been a long time coming (I've been lurking for years), and I have a few suggestions to the good folks at Outlaw.

Within 3 minutes of wiring up and situating the LFM-1 Plus, I'd do a couple things differently:

First, ditch the 2 box business. I routinely receive 90lbs items through both UPS and FEDEX and the equipment is 20 times more expensive(and sophisticated) that what you are shipping. I'm not saying your system doesn't work... First impressions, you know.

Second, what the deal with Paul Bunyan's Pillow case? Why give me something that has ZERO use?

Third, Since this sub is huge(hey, my wife signed for it so I'm keeping it!) why not create some kind of cosmetic door to hide all the knobs, switches, LED's and such? If I don't put the "back" end towards a corner or wall(compromising placement) I have all the ugly parts showing... How much more expensive could it be to gracefully cover at least some of it?

Lastly, I'd do away with that wimpy feeling power cord. It's kinda short (compromise placement), and wouldn't you want to have a cord with a ground pin? Just wondering.

In the next versions make the subs a bit smaller in each direction... This thing's taller than my coffee table.

I'm kinda middle of the road on the experience so far... f'n credit card company not helping, then Fedex totally breaking with tradition and showing up at 9:30AM has NEVER happened in the 9 years at this address.

I've had it on for only 5 minutes (kids sleeping) and I can already tell I'm in for a FUN weekend.

Thanks Outlaw's for putting up with the crabby emails, and cranky phone call. And a shout out to Fedex(though with more pushing on my end) finally went against everything they said they would do and made a second delivery attempt, even though I was waiting at the f'n FEDEX center to drive it back to my house.

I don't know the history behind double boxing and dressing speakers in bags, but I have some answers to your questions. As for the double boxing, I have had to send electronic equipment home for repairs, and those boxes can take a beating during the round trip. So I don't think you really want to get rid of the outer one.

As for the door to hide the nobs, lights and switches, two suggestions. Cables go in there as well. On a sub particularly, you'd probably complain rather loudly if, as it was shaking your house, that door was rattling because it no longer closes tightly or due to environmental conditions shrank a little. You really don't need or want that door.

Subs come in many sizes. If you want a smaller one you can get it. Some people have bigger rooms or want the floor to shake more, so they get bigger subs, or they get 2 bigger subs. If the one you got takes up too much space get a smaller one.

Power cords on audio equipment are short for a reason. They collect radio frequency interference (RFI). If you've ever dealt with it you know its a pain in the (choose your body part). The longer the cord the more of it you can collect and hear. Things that need grounding get it. Things that don't, ... well why add another wire to collect RFI. Gonk and some of the technical types around here can explain this one better than I.

Enjoy your new sub. Maybe you can use Paul Bunyan's pillowcase as a laundry bag.

Welcome to the forum, Woohoo, and I hope you have fun with the sub this weekend.


Keep in mind that the plate is a power amp, and that amp produces heat. The external plate of these amps is the amp's method of heat rejection. That's why you will find that even very expensive subs have their plate amp (and its connections) exposed on one side. Concealing the plate (and its connections) would be a fairly expensive hassle and would require the sub to grow - the cover would have to be added externally to avoid pushing the amp inward and encroaching on the sub's internal volume. The only effective way to avoid that is to have a passive sub and a separate power amp, but that's pretty rare these days.


The ECS-10 did just that. They went from a ported design (which requires the size you see to achieve the performance you hear) to a sealed design (which can function with a smaller internal volume, but requires more power to compensate for the lack of a port and thus leads to higher cost). Ported subs with large drivers are inherently big boxes.

As for the double-boxing and the fabric cover (Paul Bunyan's pillow case - great description), I don't blame them for being careful. There's been a somewhat recent example of a sub company choosing to skimp on their boxing, and the result was a pronounced uptick in shipping damage between the factory and the consumer. The fabric cover could also have been plastic, but the underlying goal is to protect the finish of the sub. The plastic wouldn't have been any use either after the sub was out of the box.

Thanks for the replies. Good to see a little life on the board after all.

I was just saying that if I were Outlaw, and I had a product line that was getting stagnant (though still highly capable) that I'd change a few things.

I totally understand why doors don't get put on subwoofers, but something should be able to be done.

The included power cord just feels cheap. I don't feel like I could run 1 amp through the thing. I'm not asking for a 24ft power cord, 10ft would be nice, that give me a bit more flexibility in where I can put the sub in my room. AND adding a ground plug should give you a place to run any RF shields to. Anybody with a Nextel phone in conversation can tell you where all the unshielded electronics are in their office, home and car are located.

I always thought stuff was put in plastic bags in shipping to keep any potential water off the product. I've had delivered boxes sitting outside in rainstorms before I got to them and never had issue with the product inside the box because it was enclosed in plastic. The cloth bag to me seems like it would just soak up the water and hold it tight to the sub and ruin the electronics. Speaking of boxes, If I wanted a Russian Babushka Doll I'd have ordered one. A box in a box in a box is just one, too many. I didn't say "it doesn't work". I'm saying there are better ways and still provide good shipping protection.

And as far as size... that's just my concern for my room. I get why enclosures are the size they are. It all comes down to the driver design and how much air it needs. I'm saying for the next generation of product, design it for a smaller enclosure.

On the lighter side of things, as I was installing the feet, my 3 year old ran up stuck his hole arm in the unplugged port and proceeded to tell my he dropped a ball inside the sub... AHHHH!!!! after rocking the sub around a bit, I think the bugger was joking with me.

And Outlaw should institute a WAF scale... based on how may "girl" movies I'll have to watch when she see's the box I just purchased. I think I'm up to about 25 just on the size of this sub alone.

AND

Since, I'm here.

Any particular reason Outlaw isn't offing any R972's for sale? Heck for that matter, why not become the authorized online retailer for the "next step" receivers out there? Some of us have had our fill with the Big Box stores but still want to "move UP" into the next tier of equipment. There should be more than 2 options for sale. I've never been a Marantz guy and a "stereo" receiver just isn't going to cut it in the theater. I'm voting with my pocketbook... I choose to keep the Outlaws on the loose than board up the shop and tell old campfire stories of when "I was younger..."

Something can be done. You can actually do a couple different things.

One is to have a passive sub (with just a pair of bindings posts tucked in there somewhere) and a separate power amp. The problem there is that most modern subs are designed as a unified system, with the cabinet, driver, and amp each specified (and often customized) for a particular sub. That means having a separate power amp specifically for your sub, and since that amp needs a full chassis it will cost most. It will also require some rack space, which can sometimes be a problem.

The other is to build a custom plate amp with no controls or connections on it, and then remote locate the controls and connections somewhere. The amp cost will increase (it's not a standard approach, so tooling needs to be made and a lot of parts have to be made just for that amp). You still need to "hide" the controls and connections on the sub somewhere, which means you still clutter up one side of the sub unless you build in a cavity and mount a door - and even then, you've got cords trailing out of it on that side. And you still need to provide for ventilation for the amp, so you can't bury it away too deeply in the sub.

At the end of the day, all of the LFM's competitors have plate amps on the back, and since subs almost always end up with at least one side facing a wall (often two sides, for corner placement). Unless somebody had a really bright idea to conceal that stuff, it's just too impractical to make significant improvements.


The wiring in your wall is not all that much heavier gauge than the power cord that came with your sub, and it has to handle much more current (15A compared to the 3.15A that the LFM-1's amp is internally fused for). It may feel skinny, but the engineer who specified it knew what he was doing and it'll do just fine. That being said, I have known companies to "move up" on their power cords before based on similar feedback. A prime example is OPPO Digital, who I have done some beta testing for. Starting with either the DV-983H or BDP-83, they changed power cords to a heavier unit based on complaints that their earlier cords were too puny. They ended up getting complaints that the new cord was too heavy and stiff.

As for the ground, many sub makers elect to go with two-prong power cords because of problems with ground loop hum when using three-prong cords. Again, it's all a matter of trade-offs.


I've seen stuff shipped both ways (single- and double-boxed). Many consumers will actually object to not getting a component double-boxed, largely because of the oft-displayed skill with which shipping companies can inflict abuse on packaging during transit. OPPO Digital single-boxes their disc players (the largest and heaviest of which is maybe 2.5" or 3" tall and around 11 pounds) and I've seen countless potential customers question that policy even though damage to their players during shipping is almost totally unheard of. When dealing with a 60lb or 80lb subwoofer the size of a table, for each person like yourself who sees the outer box as a waste there are probably ten people who don't care either way and five more who would consider not buying the product if the outer box were omitted. Perception is a powerful thing...


I would have to guess that they aren't selling R-972's for the same reason they scrapped the Model 997: they weren't satisfied with the overall performance and/or quality. The Model 997 was to be based on the R-972 platform, and based on the limited activity in the R-972 thread at AVS I get the impression that Outlaw felt that it wasn't to their level of quality. It's similar to Parasound's decision to scrap all three of their HDMI-based products this year, although in that case the base platform was different (Emotiva's UMC-1, which has proven to be a very problematic unit). Outlaw appears to have been partnering with Marantz this year while developing the Model 998. The SR5005 that they are offering now is less money, appears to be stable/reliable, and has a very competitive feature set. I think that most folks would hold Marantz in higher regard than Sherwood, especially after all the problems the R-972 had, so it seems like a pretty decent partnership to go with.

Gonk, your not thinking far enough outside the box here.

IF LG can do this

http://www.lg.com/us/infinia/index.jsp#/LED/look-better/wireless-connection

Surely, Outlaw can build a transmitter that doesn't sound like my kid's walkie talkie.


I also understand that Outlaw is only going to sell stuff they think is worthy. I just like a little selection to shop from.

Again, just my 2 cents.

Transmission has to happen upstream of amplification, though. Sure, you could eliminate the RCA cable going to the sub, but you still have the power cord and the amp itself tucked in there. That LG also has a power cord on the back along with a bunch of connections - look at the 360° view and you'll see that the back of that TV is no prettier than the back of a sub.

Totally off topic Gonk. The point I'm trying to make is: if Outlaw wants to stand out from the crowd, they need to be different from the crowd!

To paraphrase from you, conventional wisdom dictates panel filled with knobs, switches, cables and leave it exposed.

Engineers get paid to solve problems. If everyone just says "this is perfect", nothing happens.

Yup, plug the S. O. B. in. Control it from from a integrated controller in a NEW OUTLAW 999 or an external box which would cost an extra $150. Give me 5 new (Since I'm pulling it from my @ anyway) pretty sides on a sub with smaller dimensions with a power cord that plugs in on the bottom, and I'd be a really happy camper. Stack the controller(want to get into ideas on this too?) in the rack. Keep the cables short. BOOM instant trend setter. Release review samples to CNET and a couple other mainstream online review sites. Sit back and watch the sales department rock.


AND SINCE I'M JUST FULL OF IDEAS TODAY; OUTLAW NEEDS TO RUN AN AMAZON AND EBAY STORE FRONT. Seriously, it 2010 already.

If you want to get rid of your RCA cord and give yourself more flexibility in placement check out the wireless connection from Aperion audio. It allows you to place your sub anywhere in the room as long as you can get power to it.

As far as double boxes, if you ever have to send your equipment back to the manufacturer, you will thank the manufacturers that take the time to double box equipment. I received my Onkyo from Outlaw and it was well packaged but has a single box with large gaps between the outside and the equipment. The box had two big gouges in it when I first got it and then I had to ship it back to get a firmware update. I am just glad it didn't get damaged in transit. I sent my 7125 back for soem work and wasn't concerned in the least because that double box was incredibly tough.

While I agree that Outlaw needs to stand out in the crowd, they can't chase every new techno idea. They had a lot of time and customer angst around the 997 that they canceled rather than bring a poor product to market. That was difficult situation because they had everyone asking about the machine and it all went up in smoke.

Gonk has already explained the electronics of why the power cord is as it is. I have the LFM-1EX and it just crushes the bass with the original cord. I would suggest you get a 90 degree RCA coupler to reduce the strain on the connection. The size of the sub is clearly indicated on the product page but when you get it out of the box it is huge.

WOW I think you need to look around the HiFi market a bit and you would realize most f your ideas are already in use, or proven to be a bad idea.

as far as the size and looks of things, its all about the sound here, if you want pretty to the eye, Bose has your product.

If we're talking about design in general, I agree. And over the years, they've done that a number of times. The Model 1050 had an adjustable crossover when that was still unheard of. The ICBM-1 remains a unique entity that still sells on the used market for the original list price. The Model 950 had three separate adjustable crossovers and analog bass management for the multichannel analog input, both of which were new concepts. The RR2150's bass management is still rare for a stereo receiver. The BLS and LCR speakers have done some unique things with boundary compensation controls. Every product can't be a trend-setter, but they've had some moments of brilliance.

I was pointing out why the specific example didn't relate so well. A wireless HDMI implementation (which is not specific to LG - it's been a sort of industry "holy grail" for several years, in part because HDMI lifted its video spec from DVI, which was developed for computer monitors and has a pretty inconvenient maximum cable length of 15 meters) doesn't translate over to subs well because you still need the plate amp in there.


A sharp engineer could absolutely come up with a series of work-arounds that would provide a clean rear panel on a sub. You'd need to disguise the power connection. You'd need to disguise the plate amp (which needs breathing room for heat rejection). You'd need to disguise the inputs or do a wireless connection (which would involve deciding whether to make the wireless connection mandatory or to retain connections on the unit for all the folks who don't need and don't want to pay for the wireless). The result is a sub with significant cost added to allow all sides to be "pretty faces." The market for that is small, though. How many of us have subs located such that all sides are visible? The standard active subwoofer plate amp isn't perfect, but it's a solution that gets used over and over again because it's the most cost effective (and thus competitive) solution going.


I doubt that either an Amazon or eBay storefront would make a lot of sense, although they have sold some b-stock gear through eBay in the past. They already have an e-commerce site of their own, so they don't need either company to provide that service for them.

I am sure Amazon and ebay would do the service for free. I think the Outlaws are doing just fine where they are. Don't need another web store to jack up the price.

The issue is that it's not $150, maybe $500, because engineering/development for a low volume product is a significant cost issue. Outlaw is designed as a value brand, not money no object brand. There are so many things that can be done, but since Outlaw wants to do value as a primary goal, getting a highly functional product is a higher priority for them.

There are people that like glowing facades, but Outlaw is not the company making that kind of product. Outlaw is different from the crowd, as they offer products other people don't, even though others might offer "similar" products.

Like the guy from Australia, I am surprised he even gave Outlaw a second glance. Lots of criticisms from someone who within 3 minutes of plugging it in had 5 "suggestions", none of which has to do with performance of the sub. I especially liked that the sub is too big. The dimensions are clearly posted on the product page. What, he couldn't take out a ruler and measure the dimensions on one of those other big boxes he has laying around to see how huge the sub is?He even blames Outlaw for FEDEX delivering the sub earlier than he would have liked. What is it with this guy. He'll probably blame Outlaw for tightening the plate amp screws too much when he figures out where the kids ball is.

In Woohoo's defense, the LFM-1 Plus is his first sub - he's noted elsewhere that he's starting to upgrade from an old stereo setup to surround sound, and this is his first purchase in that process. If you stop and think about how much things have changed in just the last fifteen years, it's daunting. You are moving from an all stereo analog audio environment with just two speakers and no digital audio formats (coaxial, optical, and HDMI), signal processing (multichannel decoding, bass management, channel trims, distance settings, matrix processing, etc...), or video switching to worry with.

As for sub size, the LFM-1 Plus and EX are fairly middle-of-the road. There are a lot of larger ported subs on the market, but to get appreciably smaller you tend to move into either much lesser performance (small ported designs with -3dB points up into the mid-30Hz range) or higher cost (sealed designs like the ECS-10).

Thanks for the defense Gonk.

In a manufacturer forum called "Your Two Cents" why wouldn't I give my opinion on what I think would make a Outlaw a better company?

Thanks for the conversation guys. These boards need a little more life.

We can debate aesthetics, engineering, and system components in a different thread.

FWIW, I think some of the wiring issues could have been addressed by putting the wiring plate on the bottom of the sub, which would have necessitated raising the sub (not necessarily a bad thing for a device that is downward firing).

Not a bad idea - I've seen some down-firing passive subs that do this. There would be some extra cost (building a sub with a separate panel for these connections), but I think the biggest challenge would be how much extra height would be required. Unless you restricted users to only using 90° connectors for the audio and power, you'd need a significant gap under the sub for the cables to turn without crimping. My sub is at least a couple inches off the wall right now, and can't get any closer due to those bends.

One cable-hiding idea, that might not 'float' in the consumer market*, is a set of 'pigtails', leaving the connectors-on-cables you don't need retracted. That way only the power cord needs a right angle end connector. And, unless your kids are into furniture tipping, switches and knobs underneath keep the settings generally out of the way of little fingers.

* Consumers are taught what to expect and generally don't want to deviate even if the deviation is toward improvement. Then, again, we are Outlaws! If we hadn't deviated from the mainstream at least a little bit, we wouldn't be here :-D

It would be nice to have all the cables hidden below the sub. I already use 90 degree connectors to reduce the stress on the connection. Control on the bottom would be more difficult to get at but we could design it with a remote control. Might have to move the ports to the side though so the footprint stays the same.

Another alternative would be to design square subs instead of rectangular subs. I know on mine, I had to put the wide side parallel to the wall which left the wires and control panel somewhat exposed. A square sub doesn't have this problem.

I have a similar problem with my LFM-1EX. It is too big to place where I really want it so I have to place it so I can see the back controls.