I want everything Redman6 wants and I want it by the end of the week for less than $1000.00.

Wow!!! That's an impressive list, but not one that seems particularly practical and one that I dare say would appear to a microscopic market. I think it's safe to say the Model 998 won't be this product.


With what processing mode to generate 11.3 content? PLIIz with rear surrounds gets you to 9.1, leaving two more channels and an extra pair of sub outputs to provide processing for. Does some of Audyssey's new tech get you to this point?


RIHD is a proprietary Onkyo control system. Even if they could incorporate it, I'm not sure why you'd want 10 RIHD outputs.


Unless Outlaw decides to be bought by D&M Holdings, there's no way to get Denon Link included.

I went through and counted individual jacks, just out of curiosity.

• RCA audio input: 32 (phono, tape, 10 stereo pairs for the s-video ports, and a 7.1 input)
• RCA audio output: 30 to 50
• coax or optical in: 10 to 12
• coax or optical out: 3
• XLR output: 14
• HDMI ports: 13 to 14
• RCA video input: 31
• RCA video output: 10
• S-video in: 10
• s-video out: 3
• network jacks: 12 to 16
• power: 2

I may have missed some, but that's 116 to 138 RCA jacks (lumping in any opticals with that group), 13 s-video jacks, 14 XLR jacks, 13 or 14 HDMI ports, 12 to 16 RJ45 ports, and two IEC sockets. There's also the ten RIHD jacks, AM/FM and satellite antennas, and probably a USB port. For comparison, the Model 990 has 74 RCA jacks, 9 s-video jacks, 8 XLR jacks, 3 DVI ports, a serial port, and one IEC socket. At 7.75" high and with adequate (albeit not extravagant space) between jacks, the Model 990's rear panel is packed. Such a device, assuming the standard 17" rack width, would be probably 18" tall or larger.

Although very unrealistic, would be fun even to just look at. Unless inputs and outputs are moved to the sides as well, this thing would be a tower as gonk points out..

I would love to just see the ipod/ipad app functionality along with the features already announced.

when you factor in 7.1-11.3 analog connections your rca count would be alot higher..
adding the the spdif/toslink

the composite video 2in/1out (config monitor only for output)2 ins to cover vcr and lp laser disc..
s-video/component either/or inputs and outputs: choice of video inputs is a requirement, analog stereo support for components that require..

example: if the processor was going analog multichan over all inputs for ausio. 5.1 (60 in/18 out) 7.1-7.2 (80-90 in/24-27 out), 9.1-9.3 (100-120 in/30-36 out) 11.1-11.3 (120-140 in/36-42 out..

it will likely be cheaper doing a stereo solution for primary 2chan and use spdif, for multi chan audio dropping the excess requirements for more analog inputs to cover the 5.1-11.3 analog audio spectrum.. reducing the amount of cables required is always a plus.. where possible..

for rihd support i'd likely say a 16-32 port solution would be a requirement, never liked the option of daisy-chaining multiple components together, for components that support rihd i prefer each component to have its own connection for commands..

This thread is meant as a place for folks to toss out ideas, so it all belongs here. Still, I'll toss out some counter-arguments for this specific case:


Plenty of HDMI inputs makes sense. No argument that more is better. I would think that for most systems (even those with game consoles) 5 or 6 would suffice, but I wouldn't object to there being 10 just in case. My gut tells me that it isn't a good match for the price point Outlaw's interested in. Still, I'm cool with the idea.


Outlaw would do well to consider two outputs. That being said, multiple HDMI outputs are complex.

If you have independent output control for those three, you just built the video portion of three processors into this thing. That includes three video switchers and three video processors, not to mention an interface with discrete control of each somehow. Most people won't need it, but every owner would be forced to buy it. That's going to turn off a lot of customers. And frankly, if you have HD running to three separate displays and want each to operate autonomously, you're probably better off buying three separate processors.

If you allow a single active HD video source (as is the norm), having multiple HDMI outputs is manageable but still not simple. Many processors with two HDMI outputs only have one active at once, and they do this for a very good reason: HDCP and EDID handshaking with multiple displays is not something that HDMI was built for, and it doesn't work gracefully (if it works at all). If someone needs to split their HDMI output three ways and have all three active at once, they may be best off getting a standalone HDMI splitter. They exist, but they're not cheap and they are not immune to system interaction problems (compatibility between components in the signal path).


If the system has as many as 10 HDMI sources, how many component sources will it have? I can see three fairly easily (Wii, an older DVD player or recorder, maybe a cable or satellite box that lacks HDMI or DVI), but getting past that becomes difficult. Tripling that number and adding one is entering a whole different realm. A modern HDMI-centric processor probably deserves three component inputs, although I could see arguments made to reduce that to two.


The odds of someone running such a complex multi-display setup today and not having HDMI on those multiple displays are vanishingly small. If it happens, an outboard component splitter of some sort can meet the need. Building the cost in and asking every customer to buy it is counter-productive, especially when a significant number of owners won't even use one component video output.


If you have all those component inputs, I can see needing an equally large number of digital audio inputs (some mix of coaxial and optical), but you can't omit analog audio. For one thing, we're already looking at 10 (about to be 20) legacy video inputs, and some of those will be limited to analog audio only. Since gaming is part of the discussion, the Wii is an obvious example of a source with no digital audio output. Additionally, leaving off a 7.1 analog output is going to represent a glaring and potentially fatal omission. The industry drove us to a reliance on multichannel analog connections thanks to DVD-Audio, SACD, and Blu-ray. Some people will want to use existing gear with that connection. Because HDMI audio is present you only need one, thankfully, although some people would probably look at the quantity of other inputs listed here and wonder why a second 7.1 input wasn't included.


Again, why so many s-video inputs? I have used s-video more than most people over the years, I suspect, but even when my system's entire video signal path used s-video (VCR, DVD player, DVD recorder, cable box, and game console) I couldn't have used that many inputs. Today I don't have a single s-video cable connected. You could probably toss in three s-video or composite inputs and cover 99% of your customer base's needs with room to spare. Heck, you could probably make a case for dropping s-video entirely and just having a few legacy composite inputs.


But unless Denon builds it, DenonLINK can't be included. They don't license it out to other manufacturers - it's proprietary. Besides, it's something of a dinosaur these days (although Denon would probably balk at that statement). HDMI can do everything that DenonLINK can do without being proprietary.


I tinkered with the proposed rear panel in AutoCAD the other day, and figure it would be at least 12" tall (assuming minimal blank space). To be easy to hook up, it'd probably be at least 15" tall, which makes it twice as tall as a Model 990 and very nearly a perfect cube. At that point, the front panel design would be difficult, to say nothing of shipping or integrating the thing into people's cabinets.

It's an interesting concept, but I still see no way that it could be a practical product. The costs for all of this would be significant, and the market would be very limited (which would in turn raise the costs even more due to economy of scale). Today's home theater is HDMI-centric. I don't enjoy saying that, as my dissatisfaction with HDMI's licensing team is pretty well-established, but it's a clear fact. Component video isn't dead yet, but its days are numbered. (Blu-ray players likely won't even offer a component output within the next two years, for example.) S-video and composite video still serve a purpose, but that purpose is much smaller and less significant than in the past. There have been posts in this forum for probably five years now advocating a substantial reduction in s-video, composite video, and stereo analog inputs on new processors. We haven't necessarily seen it yet, but I think the day is coming. A processor that includes a huge increase in analog connectivity (both audio and video) would be a niche product. Outlaw needs something mainstream that can sell as well as the Model 990 did in its heyday.

For that, I've got a separate idea: an outboard "legacy AV box" that could switch between various sources (composite and component video, stereo analog audio and a few digital audio inputs) and then output a single signal (transcoded component video and digital audio, perhaps) that went to the surround processor. That would let those older devices (particularly PS1, SNES, N64, GC, DC) connect easily while tying up a single input on the processor. The harsh truth is that building a modern surround processor with enough inputs to support simultaneous connection of every game console built in the last 15 years is not an economically practical concept for any company to develop. A legacy box like I describe is itself probably difficult to justify, although you could potentially find some good AV switching solutions that would serve a similar purpose.

snes: composite, s-video
n64: composite, s-video, component?
gamecube: composite, s-video, component
wii: composite, s-video, component, Hdmi?
ps1 and ps2: composite, component s-video..
ps3: composite, s-video, component, hdmi
xbox: composite, s-video, component, dvi
xbox 360: composite, s-video, component, dvi, hdmi (gen2)
dream cast; component, s-video?, component (for earlier cd based sega hardware you'll need to check what's available in the way of connections and cables..)

from game cube to dream cast you will need to check what analog audio connections are supported via adapter cable..

though you can see what i'm getting when talking about legacy support especially if you want multi channel on cd/dvd based consoles

I wasn't looking at spanning across hdmi for pj use, I was more thinking about doing a format set per pj..
in the case of lcd tv use, I was using 1 as a movie display whether if be connected via hdmi or via component
1 set for 2:40, 1 set for 16:9, the last set for tv....

the only time i would consider multi spanning across pj's is if i had the space to do an omni/imax type layout..

i'm trying reduce using external av source splitters as i'm already using this method and there little way to control the unit with irhd and would you like to have a rack full av switches to support 15-30 odd consoles

if I wanted to greedy i could of said whack in analog tuner to cater all the rf based consoles..

RIHD isn't just used by onkyo. jvc, sharp and sony use it for universal control for all in 1 switch..

would you really need analog audio connections for every device that supports 5.1-7.1 or better surround modes...

composite is dead for years.. as long as it doesn't require anything above 640x480 res..

S-video isn't dead just yet, 720i and 720p will be possible, you might be able to do 1080i at its max throughput, though 1080p will be a nono due to hardware limitation..
component will be the last to die as it can support up to 1080i..
scart is an unknown entity
hdmi is going to be king for the foreseeable future though i don't see the console makers will look at porting their older console to hdmi..

console usage is only 1 option of end use of the processor/preamp

I do understand your problem when the goal is support for all of the consoles you mentioned:

• SNES: composite or s-video for video; stereo analog for audio.
• Nintendo64: composite or s-video for video; stereo analog for audio. No component video, which isn't surprising since it simply didn't exist in the marketplace at that time.
• GameCube: composite, s-video, or component video for video; stereo analog for audio.
• Wii: composite, s-video, or component video for video; stereo analog for audio. The Wii has no digital outputs, so no HDMI.
• XBox: composite, s-video, or component video for video; stereo analog for audio. The original XBox did not have DVI. It also didn't have a digital audio output.
• XBox360: composite, s-video, or component video for video; stereo analog or optical digital for audio; and HDMI for audio/video on later models. It has never had DVI, either.
• Dreamcast: composite or s-video for video, stereo analog for audio. I'm pretty sure it's a no go on component, though.
• Playstation: composite or s-video for video, stereo analog for audio.
• PS2: composite, s-video, or component video for video; stereo analog or optical for audio.
• PS3: composite, s-video, or component video for video; stereo analog or optical for audio; and HDMI for audio/video.

Of all the consoles listed, the only ones with an optical output are the PS2, PS3, and XBox360. For everything else, you need a stereo analog connection for audio. There were also only two with HDMI output and six with component (last two generations for Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony).

That's a total of ten consoles right there. If you mix in any older stuff (Sega Genesis, Atari 2600, and so forth) you just add to the challenge, although by that point you're looking at RF demodulators that provide composite video and analog audio. Let's be realistic: no surround processor manufacturer is going to design a product with the express purpose of supporting direct connection to a decade and a half or two decades worth of video game consoles (most of which are long discontinued and rely on audio and video connections that are seeing less use by the day). It is simply impractical to develop such a product, even without considering the minuscule customer base that will actually make use of it.

All that being said, I will toss out a theoretical system based on a theoretical surround processor (we'll call it the Waltuo 899). This unit will have at least four HDMI inputs, three component inputs, and four composite video inputs. It will be used in conjunction with all ten of the consoles listed above, a standalone Blu-ray player, and a cable or satellite receiver. There will be a good universal remote (I'll use my URC MX-900 for this example). There will also be two of these switches, both with remote controls.

• HDMI1: Cable/satellite receiver
• HDMI2: Blu-ray player (universal BD, DVD, DVD-A, SACD, and CD)
• HDMI3: PS3
• HDMI4: XBox360
• Component1/Optical1: PS2
• Component2/analog stereo: Switch1
  • Switch1 Input1: Wii (component/analog stereo)
  • Switch1 Input2: PS1 (component/analog stereo)
  • Switch1 Input3: XBox (component/analog stereo)
  • Switch1 Input4: GameCube (component/analog stereo)
• Composite1/analog stereo: Switch2
  • Switch2 Input1: Dreamcast (composite/analog stereo)
  • Switch2 Input2: Nintendo64 (composite/analog stereo)
  • Switch2 Input3: SNES (composite/analog stereo)

Once all that's wired up, we write a series of macros for the universal remote. You have a dozen sources to choose from under the "WATCH" screen. When you pick one, the remote sends a command to select one of the seven inputs on the processor before switching to the screens that control that device. If you picked a source that connects to one of the two switches, the remote also sends a command to select the appropriate input on that switch in the same macro. The result is a system that seamlessly integrates two conventional sources and ten game consoles into the system - all with nothing more than some planning, a good universal remote, and two inexpensive switches. You could add an eleventh console easily, and you could even add another switch if you needed to (allowing you to go up to 15 consoles). If I worked at it, I could probably even do something close to this with a Model 990, although the conventional sources would get a bit crowded.


Hmmm... Separate displays for different aspect ratios is pretty complicated. I'd say it's needlessly complicated, in fact. First, the only two ways to get a 2.35:1 display are CIH projection (anamorphic lens, video processing to properly stretch the video source, and usually some good masking on the screen for the times when you roll back the lens to shoot 16:9 content) and one or two Philips 21:9 monitors that cost a fortune (if you can even find one). Once you've invested in one of those, you ought to use it. I'd say that if you do want this sort of setup, a single HDMI output to a good CIH setup (front projector and anamorphic lens) would be the most graceful solution. That would give you a great display for 1.78:1 through 2.35:1 movies, 1.78:1 HD television, and any big-screen gaming you want to do. You could then use a second HDMI output to a "daily use" flat panel (LCD or plasma), and the more common dual HDMI output solutions (with one output active at a time) would accommodate you just fine.

Not sure about your question. Analog audio is the only option on most of the consoles on your list. If you want sound, you have to use analog audio. The only consoles that offer a digital audio output are the PS2, PS3, and XBox360. Those three can provide multichannel audio via Dolby Digital 5.1 audio. Except for those three, all of your audio will be stereo at best. Some (such as the Wii) will include decoding cues for Pro Logic, which provides a way to get "intentional" surround sound from those stereo sources when you apply Pro Logic II processing. For others, you will be using a matrix surround processing mode such as Pro Logic II or Neo:6 to get surround sound from that stereo source.


Composite is certainly around solely for compatibility purposes with older or more basic hardware. The only source I have which can't offer any better than composite is our daughter's LeapFrog. Even my VCR is S-VHS, and thus has an s-video output. Of course, when we're discussing hardware from the 1990's or before, composite is pretty much king: s-video was very rare and component was outright unheard-of until late in the decade.


S-video is fading rather fast, mostly because the gap between it and the more ubiquitous composite is so tiny when compared to HD connections that we're all starting to use. S-video can not do HD resolutions. It can't even do 480p. Like composite, it is limited to 480i (or 576i if you are dealing with PAL, which I doubt many of us are).


Component will be around a while, although there are efforts by AACS to kill it because it is the only widely-used analog video connection that supports HD resolutions. AACS has a phase-out schedule that will first restrict component to 480i and then delete it from hardware entirely for any source component that uses AACS encryption (which at present is just Blu-ray, pretty much). Because it's analog, though, it's already becoming less widely used than HDMI.


SCART is a European entity. No presence in the North American market, and thus not on Outlaw's radar.


Sony and Microsoft will focus their attention on HDMI output. We'll see what Nintendo does, since they felt no need to even put an optical or coaxial output on the Wii. I agree, though, that nobody is going to revise existing non-HD platforms or discontinued platforms to offer HDMI. It would be an utterly pointless exercise with no practical value, and it would be pretty expensive.

Here's another thought regarding all the older consoles. It doesn't have the fancy automation of my earlier concept, but it could be practical depending on how the system is used. If you take everything except the current generation (PS3, 360, and Wii) and maybe the PS2, the consoles are basically all designed around 480i video and stereo audio. The PS2 could get lumped in with the current generation since it had optical output. Connect the current generation (and maybe the PS2) directly to individual inputs on a surround processor, and then configure the front panel input to use composite video and stereo analog audio. Then each time you pull out a legacy console, you plug it into the front panel input. That's three connections to make. Unless the room is set up with all ten consoles on display and ready to operate in place (drive or cartridge slot accessible, controllers at hand, etc.), this may actually be necessary anyway.