Koyaan, with all due respect, I don't understand your position. First of all, by "ghost" image OSD text, I mean that the text is semi transparent over the current video such that you can still see the entire video image AND still read the OSD text. Therefore, I can understand Outlaw not providing an option/toggel for such a ghost OSD overlay onto the current video display based on cost and/or technology limitations; but I cannot understand an argument for not doing so based on some imagined burden to family, guests, and perhaps other Outlaws that do not want that option. The burden on family, guests, and other Outlaws comes in when you are forced to access either a secondary display or blank out the current display to simply find out what settings are currently active and/or change one or two of those settings for the currently playing media. In fact, I am sure I am not alone in hearing "what are you doing" or "put the video back on" when I have accessed the current blanked out OSD format offered by the Outlaw 990. I was a Navy F/A-18 pilot in my younger days and was lucky enough to use one of the first Heads-Up-Displays--I now just want a heads up display for my TV!

I definitely welcome other viewpoints on this topic because this is a big "want to have" option for me based on "ease of use" considerations. But, admittedly, the lack of such an option will not sour me to Outlaw 998 (but neither would the complete elimination of S video and composite connections--which "old" technology is still on others' want lists (to each his own)).

Ed

I think Sanjay's suggestion hits on a question I've had about Trinnov. I listen to more music through my system than movies and I've wondered; Is there a good summary of how Trinnov works when listening to music in stereo? Can Trinnov be easily turned on and off without having to go into the setup menu? I'm thinking about how I can program remote macros for each activity (movie, music, CATV, game, etc) and access to Trinnov commands.

At this point, I don't know that there is a great overview. The only product offering it is still the R-972, and it has struggled so much that I'm not sure that it's a great metric for how Trinnov works ideally. It does appear that Trinnov offers different options that influence how it is used - the 3D remapping that is perhaps one of the most interesting capabilities is not necessarily required.


This probably depends mostly on how it is implemented - so at this point, it's anybody's guess. I could see a scenario where folks would only want the 3D remapping for certain sources, though.

I guess make sure it is a separate system than room correction.

BTW, you're the only person I know (at least locally) that has any experience with Trinnov. When you had the Sherwood in your system, did turning on Trinnov lock you out of any adjustments or features?

I agree with you 100%.. And it should be switchable for those who don't want it.

I think Yamaha has gotten it closer to "perfection" than anyone else... volume at the bottom of the screen when making a change.

If you want more info, you hit the STATUS button on the remote and you get a full screen overlay for both Audio and Video info, including Dialog Norm offset..

One of the other things that Yamaha has also gotten right, which I haven't seen used by anyone else, is System Memories. They will store a multitude of setting which you can then change with one button push.

For example, you can have your default settings for speakers (let's say Small with various crossovers), video scaling settings, etc on Memory One... then you can store a different setting for your speakers (i.e. large) and store only that information info in Memory Two.. you can choose to store all or only selected parameters per Memory... there are also 4 separate Volume memories as well. it's pretty cool. Then to recall, there are dedicated buttons on the remote, or you can use the Web Browser control to access them.

The Denon's will provide the same information, however it is buried in the menu a couple of clicks deep. And Anthem uses a 2 line overlay which cycles through the info with each press of the button.

And Pioneer has taken a different route with their newest receiver, the SC-37... they went with a two way RF remote which mimics the front panel display, so you can see the volume, source, etc. on the remote. (they also have an iPhone app that gives you a bunch of info..)

It would have to be a "post decode" type of processing.... curious what kind of DSP it would require.

The 972 locks you out of everything when Trinnov is engaged... no speaker settings, etc.. you can, however, turn it off after it measures and go and make changes to the distance, etc...

On a side note, after 24 hours of having it in my system, I had found and reported around 6 major issues to SN, including a full scale digital noise blast about 5 feet from my ears.....

I am so glad that Outlaw has gone down the road they are.... I cannot wait to see what they are going to come up with.

Sure. If it is global, then it can occur after format decoding and surround processing but before slicing-n-dicing the signal (bass management, time alignment, etc). However, if it is on a per-speaker basis (as Onkyo/Integra have implemented), then it would have to be one of the last steps before output.

BTW, having tone control or manual EQ per speaker brings up an interesting use: timbre matching. Measure a sweep through your centre speaker, measure the same sweep through your left front speaker; adjust the left speaker to more closely match the centre. Then do the same with the left front and left side, working your way around the room.

We're not talking perfection here, just getting different speakers in different locations to sound more similar to each other than they normally would. At the very least, it would bring a level of consistency to your system that it's never had before. Good grief, I hope the 998 allows a little more flexibility than that. I can understand locking you out of features when using the Speaker Re-mapping function, which relies on phantom imaging to re-align the soundstage and could be ruined by futzing with critical parameters such as time alignement, levels, etc. But when using Trinnov just for room correction, you should have access to some controls that allow you to shape the sound to taste. Ouch. That can't be good for someone who relies on their ears to make a living. Likewise. Even though it was a difficult announcement for Outlaw, I secretly smiled at the news of 997 being replaced by the 998.

I discussed this with Curt Hoyt, who pointed out that the output signals from the Trinnov process cannot be altered in any way, or it will disrupt the various remapping functions. Same as moving your speakers after alignment. But it is perfectly fine to put it just as Sanjay mentioned--prior to bass management.

I thought that's Trinnov's job . It seemed to do that rather well in my short time with a 972. Then the manual PEQ can be a kind of "useful" tone control, and in that case, I'd like it to be ganged across all channels.

One of the issues with using Trinnov innards for user taste adjustments is that those tweaks cannot occur in real time. You can make an adjustment in a menu, but you will not hear it until Trinnov recomputes the filter coefficients. So it's better to keep user tweaks in a separate module ahead of the Trinnov -- unless of course what you're adjusting is part and parcel of Trinnov's unique process.

Which is why I said "I can understand locking you out of features when using the Speaker Re-mapping function, which relies on phantom imaging to re-align the soundstage and could be ruined by futzing with critical parameters such as time alignement, levels, etc. But when using Trinnov just for room correction, you should have access to some controls that allow you to shape the sound to taste." How does Onkyo manage to give users tone control on a per-speaker basis without it being part and parcel of Audyssey's unique process? Audyssey isn't recomputing its filter coeficients each time you turn up the bass. There's no reason to lock the user out of those kind of adjustments if you're using Trinnov solely for room correction (no speaker remapping).

The biggest , and only gripe I have on the 990 is the fact, if I want to access my 990 settings, I have to black out whatever I am watching On the TV.
I came from a HK635, which I still have,that when any adjustment is made, ie Volume, surround modes etc, could be seen at the bottom of the TV when making a change. When accessing menu options on the HK 635, you could still see the material being watched on the TV.
So I agree a heads up display would be my choice also.