many are perpetually waiting for the arrival of mythical 997. I wonder how many of those waiting for the 997 are owners of the Outlaw 970 pre/pro.

As many of you know, this model, while it did provide considerable "bang-for-the-buck" it was sold (and continues to be sold) defective. Outlaw sold this product knowing that many units were defective with the "no-audio" bug --- among other glitches.

So, I wonder why so many are anxiously awaiting the debut of another untested Outlaw product in the 997? What has Outlaw done to convince the buying public that they will not repeat this behavior when (not if) the bugs start popping up on the 997?

If history is any indication of future behavior, it would seem unwise to invest in Outlaw again, knowing that they are comfortable with selling defective products.

This is not meant to 'throw Outlaw under the bus', rather, I think a healthly conversation about their past behavior should be conducted while many wait to drop $1,400 on another Outlaw pre/pro....

Can't comment on the 997 as it's not out yet. Also can't comment on the 970 because I don't own one. But I have owned both a 950 and a 990 and can only praise OUTLAW AUDIO for the great pre/pro's and outstanding customer service I have received when needed.
"This is not meant to 'throw Outlaw under the bus', rather, I think a healthly conversation about their past behavior should be conducted while many wait to drop $1,400 on another Outlaw pre/pro...."
Don't understand this comment. Do you own or have you dealt with OUTLAW AUDIO. Besides owning the two pre/pro's, I also have purchased a model 7125 AMP,subwoofer, Vudu XL, cables and the Onkyo PR-SC 886. OUTLAW has been the best online company I have conducted business with. Any problem was handled professionally and quickly.
When the 997 is ready for production my 990 will be sold.

The 990 was better, and my 2nd 970 that I got dirt cheap (I think for around $300 from B-Stock) has worked great

So have the 7700 and the LFM-1EX...

Do you drive a Toyota?

I purchased a 970 and a 7125 this past July along with all of the Outlaw cables that I needed. I cannot be happier, I love this stuff to death. The 970 has been great with not one problem and we run this thing every day listening to music, watching DirecTv and home theater movies. I plan on purchasing our first HD TV this summer, and when we do, we will upgrade the 970. Whatever we purchase will definitely be Outlaw just not the 997 because it is more than what we need. However, I am sure that Outlaw will be releasing a product for those of us that don't require or who cannot afford a 997. We are also planning on upgrading our sub, we are just waiting to see what Outlaw has ups it's sleeves in that category. Thank you Outlaw for great products, great service and awesome sound!

I have multiple pieces of Outlaw equipment and I bought the Onkyo PR-SC886 from them because I trust them to do me right. Like others I was waiting for the 997 but it just didn't make it on time. I have 2 outlaw amps and have had work done on one of them and it was a very pleasant experience. I sent my 7125 off for a dead channel and had it back 8 days later fully restored. When my 886 arrived it had not yet had its firmware updated to the latest version. I called Outlaw and they sent me a shipping label to send it back and get it right. 10 days later it was back and perfect. Sometimes equipment has issues which can't be fixed , no matter what. I believe the Outlaws will go the extra steps to make it right when they are able to. The OP is right about needing a healthy conversation about Outlaws past practices but he is on the wrong side of the street.

My experiences with Outlaw's customer service has been excellent, but I would say neutral when it comes to their products. I own the 970 and had problems with it from the beginning. I had it replaced at least once (can't remember if it was once or twice) and also had it serviced once. It came back from service working fine but now it is making some odd clicking noises and I'm done with it. I'll be putting it on ebay sometime in the future.

Haven't had any problems with the 7100 amp I bought from them though I suspect if I swapped it out with a higher quality amp my popping would disappear. Just a guess at this point.

Also bought the Onkyo 886. Great unit but got it with the old firmware. I was too lazy to deal with sending it back for the updated firmware but it works and I don't have any issues.

Just got some used Outlaw 200 monoblocks. Besides the pretty loud hiss they produce from my tweeters, they seem ok. What can I say, I'm hard to please when it comes to audio equipment. Outlaw makes good stuff that's affordable, so I'll stick with them and just hope for the best. Sometimes it works out, and sometimes it doesn't.... like with the 970.

I hope the 997 does turn out to be a good product like the 990 as I know my brother is waiting patiently for it.

I was just thinking it's a good thing electronics and this "hobby" are not like marriage...I may have a fault or two and I'm sure I'm missing a feature here and there, but at least for 10 years the wife has been patient, recognized the good and not traded up. We have the LFM1 and the 1050(for 9 years) and it will go to our son when he goes to college in 5 yrs. We picked up the 970/7125 and Oppo in December and love it and have had no issues.
The 970 was ordered on Wed, they got my check on thurs, and I had it on Friday.
Thanks Outlaw for the great service and products at an exceptional value.
just my 2 cents

I will weigh in on this topic, but gently. I can't speak to the issues folks had with the 970 as I never owned one. I do have the 990 and have been very pleased. Outlaw provided terrific customer service when it developed some kind of fault and needed repair. They did it quickly and I've not had any issues since. I did order 5 monoblocks from them some time ago and after running them in my system I just didn't like their performance. They took them back as advertised. Outlaw has provided me very good customer service and I have recommended them to coworkers and friends.

I originally looked at Outlaw because they offered feature-rich products that seemed to have just what was needed at excellent prices. I think they offer that now but I also think some of their luster has come off recently. Those original products were unique but is seems now a lot of their products are rebadged from other manufacturers. In some cases that is a good thing; their multi channel amps are from ATI. ATI has an excellent reputation and are used by several other companies plus Outlaw's prices on those amps are very competitive. They have also worked good combo deals such as including the OPPO BDP-83 in one of their packages that have benefited customers.

I hope Outlaw can get back to offering those unique products that find footholds like the 950 and 990 did. Products that offer just the right features at an excellent price. I often thought the 990 was the reasonable man's Anthem AVM-30. I hope the 997 hits a sweet spot and is favorably compared to Anthem's AVM-50v. And the price comparison between the two: $1,400 for the 997 and list price of $5,500 for the AVM-50v. That alone is worth the wait.

I've owned 3 different Outlaw amps and 2 970's. I also 'tried' a 1070 for 30 days and had originally bought a 990 but sent it back as it was too big for my av rack. Also 'tried' an LCR for 30 days and it didn't work out timbre wise with my system...no problem...just sent it back. The Outlaws have always been great to deal with and provide great customer service. Yeah, there's an issue with the 970...I ended up sending my first one back for repairs though and it was fixed right and I got it back pretty quick too. Try that with some of the big name companies out there, some of whom also have glitchy products. My current 970 has issues (see my speaker hiss thread, but for the money it's still a good value. I will continue to be an Outlaw customer. Don't know if I will purchase a 997, but they are one company I have no problems dealing with because I know they will treat me right should there be a problem.

Before I answer, I'd like to say that on the one occasion where I needed support, Outlaw's support was excellent (one of my LFM-1's arrived with a defective amp and they cross-shipped the replacement without any prodding). So in that regard, I trust them.

That said, whether I trust them or not has ceased to be relevant. Outlaw has really lost its way. 5 years ago when I loaded up on home theater gear, Outlaw really was a bargain and offered performance that wasn't available at an affordable price point and features in the 990 that were cutting edge at any price at that time. Today, at least from where I'm standing, Outlaw appears to be mostly a re-branding service. Speakers from Snell, Subs from Hsu, processors from Onkyo, gadgets from Velodyne, cables from God-knows-where, etc. It's audioadvisor with a custom label.

Times have changed. There are other outfits selling similar gear at lower prices on the one hand and you can go into brick and mortar electronics stores today and get competitively priced theater gear at prices comparable to Outlaw. What you don't get is the service, but a lot of folks will forgo that to save a buck or to satisfy an impulse buying urge. When I look at how active this web site was a few years ago and compare it to the sleepy place that it has become, it seems obvious to me that the market dynamics have changed and fewer new people are stopping by to take a look. That doesn't bode well at all. So while I trust Outlaw, they have ceased selling things that are attractive to me. Maybe the 997 (if/when it ever ships) and their fancy new speaker line (hopefully not assembled in China) will change things, but they've got a long row to hoe and the 997 debacle has cost them dearly in terms of sales and customer loyalty. I wish the company well, but I'm not optimistic about their chances of being around another 5 years.

Best,

I do not own the 970 so I will not comment on the pro's or con's of this receiver. However I have purchased the 990/7700 combo and I am extremely happy.
A lot of my friends who are Home Theater enthusiasts and had spent twice or three times what I paid for my pre/pro were very impressed with the 990's ability to bring the surround sound format in home theater as well as many genre of music .

As many of you know, this model, while it did provide considerable "bang-for-the-buck" it was sold (and continues to be sold) defective. Outlaw sold this product knowing that many units were defective with the "no-audio" bug --- among other glitches.

I cannot believe this statement that OUTLAW knowingly sells defective products. Statements can be easily be made...but what about proof.
How many of the 970's have been defective? How many defective 970's have been shipped by Outlaw knowing that they are defective? More important how many 970's have been returned by customer's who requested their money back?
Finally, where are all the complaints on this forum to back the statement up that Outlaw knowingly sells defective products?


This is not meant to 'throw Outlaw under the bus', rather, I think a healthily conversation about their past behavior should be conducted while many wait to drop $1,400 on another Outlaw pre/pro...

You just did throw Outlaw under the bus by making such a broad statement of irresponsibility by a company who has one of the BEST records of customer satisfaction.
I have met Peter Tribeman and Scott and can say that both men are honest,helpful and take pride in what they do for Outlaw. They not only earn there livelihood from Outlaw but want there customers to have the best Home Theater products that give the best bang for the buck with the satisfaction that the customer owns a premium quality piece of equipment!

Maybe ready504 "You Can't Get No Satisfaction".

Why Outlaw? During the B-Stock sale, I purchased my second 2150 and a pair of Bookshelf speakers, and a sub for my office, having been exceptionally pleased with my first 2150, which is at my cabin. One of the bookshelf speakers had a distorted sound, albeit intermittent. One phone call to Outlaw resulted in them shipping me a replacement (they e-mailed me FedEx shipping info so I could track the order) along with a prepaid shipping label for me to use when returning the defective speaker. One speaker out of the box, defective one in the box, slap on a lable and call FedEx for pick up. Done deal. They didn't wait until I returned the speaker. Within 10 days of receiving the original, I was up and running with the replacement. That's why Outlaw.

PS The new office system sounds FANTASTIC.

Like I said, their service is good. They shipped me a new part in advance of me returning the defctive amp for my LFM-1 too. If you don't mind paying a little more for good service, Outlaw is a nice company to deal with. If you're more cost sensitive or into bleeding edge features....not so much.

Best,

"I cannot believe this statement that OUTLAW knowingly sells defective products. Statements can be easily be made...but what about proof.
How many of the 970's have been defective? How many defective 970's have been shipped by Outlaw knowing that they are defective? More important how many 970's have been returned by customer's who requested their money back?
Finally, where are all the complaints on this forum to back the statement up that Outlaw knowingly sells defective products?"

Rubbersoul, I suggest you take a quick look at the 970 forum. It is widely accepted that the 970 was sold after Outlaw knew about the various bugs associated with the 970.......it is still a solid piece of HT equip, and at the time it represented a great value despite it flaws, however, that cost/benefit dynamic has since changed. At least in my opinion, continuing to sell a product that should have been recalled, does not sit well with me...

I understand that the 990 is and continues to be a great processor, however, the 970 was and is a different animal.

I've dropped my fair share of suggestions towards the Outlaws over the years, via the Saloon, by phone, and in person, and my respect for both the company and the individuals involved has done nothing but grow.

Constructive criticism is one thing; defammation of the brand name is quite another. What drove you to use your first post for the latter purpose (whether unintentionally or not?

Jeff,

I didn't intend to defame Outlaw. In fact, I am a loyal, but concerned customer. The title of my post was regrettable and my tone clearly didn't translate well or represent my intentions.

The past issues with the 970 do concern me, but I regret how it sounded.

Ritz2, I don't understand the first part of your above statement. What other audio company are you aware of that has as good of service for a better price? How much more cost sensitive can you get? At the time of their introduction each of the Outlaw products were pretty "bleeding edge". I feel this anti-hype about not being "bleeding edge" is a holdover from Outlaws refusal to incorporate a half-baked HDMI output into their product line. They don't have the resources of Denon/Onkyo/Yamaha/Sony to bring out seven different versions of the same pre-pro or receiver spread across multiple price points just to gain market share. What they do have is a group of engineers who think the product through and make decision based on current technology and what is likely to be usable in the next 5 years. How many of us have a 990 which is completely compatible with our displays and sources, 5 years after its debut. Except for more wires, the lack of HDMI barely affects the 990 or the 970 since they have analog inputs.

Too much coffee today??? I said their service was good. I also said their prices are higher than similar products offered by competitors (Emotiva comes to mind). Some people are willing to pay more for that extra bit of service and some are not. That is all I'm saying.



Spare me. Half baked? HDMI has been a fact of life for years now and was already appearing in consumer gear when the 990 was released (moreso when the 970 was released). If Outlaw's release cycle for a flagship processor is going to be every 5-6 years, then they'll need to be a little bit more on the ball and forward thinking about key design decisions of this nature.



That much is quite clear. If you don't have the resources of your competition, you need to be a bit more forward thinking about your product mix. Use your brains, not your muscle.



Is this a joke? Lack of HDMI completely removes the 990 from any serious consideration for a theater system and that's been the case for a couple of years. If it wasn't, Outlaw wouldn't be reselling Onkyo's processor while they wait helplessly for Sherwood to deliver a usable plaform for the 997.

Lastly, there hasn't been anything I'd classify as innovative offered in the Outlaw store in a couple of years that's been anything more than a repackaging of someone else's product. Without any stand-out product to fall back on, that leaves them with only price and service to differentiate themselves. They're doing that with their service, for sure, but I wouldn't classify Outlaw's prices these days as particularly competitive. Combine all of the above and you've got the current situation where the bulk of the posts on these forums are from members who have owned the gear for years and very little interest from new customers.

Best,

Why would lack of HDMI remove the 990 from HT consideration? Projectors don't use the audio portion of HDMI and the video portion is identical to DVI. So the video output of the 990 can go directly to a projector and provide 1080P resolution in a very stable configuration. The 990s analog inputs allow it to use an outboard Bluray device to decode the audio from any of the formats. While I agree the 990 is doing no processing of the signals in either case it does provide a stable platform to control your system.

5 years ago HDMI was not as user friendly as it is today. It had a lot of quirks due to HDCP and the plug itself is a engineering disaster. Let us not forget that they also put out several new versions of it to make it more mainstream but have never improved the video capability over what DVI already provided. I am sure that when projectors start using 4000P we will see HDMI 1.X touted as the next best way to see the huge improvements in the picture.

To me the best thing about HDMI is the ability to reduce the cables in the back of the system. I just wish they had designed to plug a little better. It only takes a little cable stress to make the plugs pull out ever so slightly causing audio loss.

And it's still half baked.

Though I agree that any new receiver or pre/pro that does not have a robust HDMI implementation these days is generally not suitable for new-purchase consideration.

Half-baked....perhaps. But it's reality. The other guy's comment about people with projectors not needing HDMI is laughable. How many people do you know that have a projector in their mix? That probably represents a few percent of the buying public, at best, and those folks are usually on the higher end of the price spectrum...

Outlaw needs to broaden its market if it intends to survive. Offering rebadges of other equipment isn't likely to cut the mustard and likely doesn't offer sufficient margins to remain a credible player.

Tough times ahead.

Out of five people I know who have home theaters, four have front projectors.

Actually, a very capable 1080p projector can be purchased for under $1000 now, so you can buy a projector for less than a lot of people pay for LCD TVs. You could supplement that Dynex TV with a very nice front projector and it would suit your system quite well.

As far as "Tough Times Ahead" and trusting Outlaw is concerned, I suspect that Peter understands this marketplace much better than any of us and can take care of himself and his company very capably.

You have cooler theater buddies than I do, Bob. Projectors certainly are cheaper, but aside from folks I know through forums like this one, I only know one person with a projector. Projector installation is more complex than any sort of direct-view display, due to a combination of cabling, screen space requirements, and overall planning (getting projector distance and screen size coordinated, etc.).

That being said, the folks who put in the time to research, plan, and install a projector on their own are more likely to gravitate to a company like Outlaw than either the people who just buy a TV from Best Buy or the people who pay a custom installer to do their projector for them. (The one person I know with a projector fits that description, and he replaced a Model 950 with a Model 990 a while back.) As such, Outlaw probably gets more business from projector owners than the overall averages would predict.

The 990 is fully capable of providing the video input to any display of any resolution currently on the market. I do not believe it can be completely disregarded for current home theater designers as its lower cost will allow the budget to be targeted towards other more expensive equipment. Granted, it is not by any means future proof, but it is capable today and will be until the displays are far more adavnced than they are today. The fact that the designers at Outlaw gave it both DVI and 7 channel analog input made it as future proof as it could be when it was introduced. That tells me they thought it out pretty well and it is a success.

I have a 990 and a Onkyo 886. I am in the market for a new display and would trust either processor to provide an excellent HT experience. I think for those of us that see through the Audio/Video "bleeding edge" hype, Outlaw and Emotiva and others provide equipment which performs as well as any on the planet.

It might be because I've had a front projector in my system (not the same one!) since 1983 and they've all seen it over the years. And, actually, installation isn't that complex, particularly if you buy one of the current LCD projectors that have very flexible placement, zoom lens, lens shift, and so on.

Back to our previously-scheduled topic. Sorry for the OT digression. (Though I'm no longer clear that this thread is actually performing a useful service to those of us waiting and hoping for the 997's release. Perhaps we should collectively form a prayer circle to the Home Theater Gods to give Peter T. and his colleagues divine strength and godspeed in his holy mission to COMPLETE THIS DAMNED THING!!! )

i am losing my faith as well. i bought a 970 last september(less than six months ago!) from outlaw and it now has multiple audio issues. audio should be the most basic function for them suppling an audiophile product and yet they sold me a defective unit, and long after the issues were well know. i have the same "no audio" issue, and since then ive done testing and found the balance in stereo mode to be off, and not in a consistant manner either. one person believes its an issue in the pink noise generator which is unproven. im very disappointed i was sold this unit, period, and even more disappointed to see them still being sold on ebay by outlaw.

i also found a set of mono blocks locally and auditioned them at home before buying..which ended in disappointment too. they were noisy when nothing was being played, and once playing music i found them to be less musical than my 20+yr old adcom amp with half the juice. at least i didnt have to buy them to find this out thank god. i realize thse amps are not made buy the builder tha makes most of the rest of their amps but it simply tells me that quality isnt there any more.

if all this is some kind of "thrown under the bus" move toward outlaw from the customers i dont want to be a customer anymore. when a company like this sells this type of product they deserve to have feedback. i sure lost money on this gear, they should lose face.

i understand loyalty toward the makers of your gear, but why defend them when they are falling short? should all of us having issues shut up and except our loss? and what about others considering buying the 970, shouldnt they get a warning? great service is second only to an even better product, the cart seems to be before horse here. Outlaw should look to emotiva for some example how to stay relevent. they cant keep their products in stock they sell so fast, and their products are being compared to those with 4x the price tag with favor in hifi rags across the net.

im very disappointed. its a shame, 7yrs ago this company was a real value, now i see a huge hole in the boat and no one seems to be bailing water.

Why trust Outlaw?
I guess the main reason I trust Outlaw is that I've bought two great products from them - a 7125 and the LFM1-ex - both of which we absolutely love. Unlike some of the other people on this thread, I don't work in the music industry. I've never met anyone from outlaw, and i'm not affiliated with them in any way. I'm just someone who demands great performance at the lowest pricepoint possible for that level of quality, and outlaw comes through. Great tech support too.
They're also one of the few high end audio companies with a forum such as this where the public (and/or their competition) is free to come and badmouth...Imagine if all companies had that? Log into toyota with a hardware issue, then B+W where your speakers each cost more than your toyota?! HA!
They're ok by me.
grog

I guess I am somewhere in the middle in this discussion. For the most part, I have been very happy with my outlaw purchases (a 1050, RR2150, SMS and LFM-1 Compact). My original 1050 (B stock) was DOA. I got a replacement at no cost (no return shipping). On the other hand, I do remember a lot of frustration when it was determined that the 1050 could not play certain DVD's correctly unless a 6th speaker was installed. The have also been minor issues (in my mind) like the crappy quality of the volume knob on the 1050 and the source selector knob on the RR2150.

Personally, I remain hopeful for Outlaw in general and the 997 in particular.

Great point!

Because they shared the debacle of the 997 with a higher level of honesty than any consumer electronics company has ever shown, in my experience.

I trust them 100% and am disappointed about the 997. And my 990 blew up.
I've never seen anything dishonest at all.
Ok they may not have handled everything perfectly on the 997. But they were always honest
Rob