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#82370 - 02/08/10 08:47 AM Re: Has the Sherwood been released yet? [Re: wolverine]
Dave K. Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/25/09
Posts: 27
Originally Posted By: wolverine
From someone who has never had anything even like Audyssey, I can understand what Trinnov is claiming to be able to do for a full 5.1 or 7.1 system with a 5.1 or 7.1 program. But does Trinnov have any effect (positive or otherwise) on a normal stereo program? Does it have to run all speakers to work? Can it do room compensation say if you just play a CD with only your front L&R and sub running? It might be nice to be able to flatten bass response in 2.1.


Trinnov basically does two things. One is "spectral" (EQ) correction, and the other is "spatial" correction. The spatial correction feature (which really represents the true innovation of Trinnov over Audssey) does indeed only work with 5.1 or 7.1 channels operating. The Trinnov feature in the R972 does both spectral and spatial correction together in a highly integrated way. This receiver truly is optimized for use with 5.1 or 7.1 channels- not for stereo (2 channels).

I DO NOT KNOW if the R972 will do automatic spectral/EQ correction independent of Trinnov- something that would be required for 2.0 or 2.1 channel operation.

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#82375 - 02/08/10 04:30 PM Re: Has the Sherwood been released yet? [Re: Dave K.]
wolverine Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 110
Loc: Ann Arbor
Thanks for the answer, Dave. I suspected something like this from the information about Trinnov on the R972, unfortunately.

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#82384 - 02/09/10 07:15 AM Re: Has the Sherwood been released yet? [Re: wolverine]
John@Work Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 2
Does anyone know if the Trinnov implementation in the Sherwood or the 997 includes the spatial correction as described on Trinnov's site...

"to dramatically improve the consistency of direct sound against late reverberation. Full-phase, time domain techniques are applied compensating for the loudspeakerís group delay and for very early reflections."

My understanding is the professional Trinnov actually cancels the early reflections of each speaker (the wall behind, the ceiling, the floor).

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#82388 - 02/10/10 09:09 AM Re: Has the Sherwood been released yet? [Re: John@Work]
Dave K. Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/25/09
Posts: 27
John, the implementation of Trinnov in the R972 (and presumably in the upcoming Outlaw 997) does indeed include the full phase time domain compensation like their professional model does. But keep in mind that this is not a "per speaker" correction- it instead attempts to correct the audio as perceived by a listenener who is seated in or near the "sweet spot" (i.e., the location where the calibration mic was placed during setup). It accomplishes this magic by using all 5.1 or 7.1 speakers in the listening room to work together (cooperatively) to reproduce an optimal spherical wavefront at the primary listening position. This also explains why it doesn't work with only two speakers (stereo) as I mentioned in my previous post above.

Luckily, the effectiveness of the correction degrades very gracefully the further the listener is seated from the sweet spot. The result is that all listeners hear an improved sound field, and the lucky listener who is seated in the sweet spot will benefit the most.

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#82400 - 02/12/10 07:15 AM Re: Has the Sherwood been released yet? [Re: Dave K.]
John@Work Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 2
That is great. That is the one thing I am waiting for. I currently have a 1070 hooked up as a pre-amp to a 7075 in a 7 channel arrangement. And while I like the performance, I know that reducing the effect of the room boundaries will make a huge improvement. I am a senior electrical engineer, and develop realtime software to control machine motion. I have studied acoustics on the side for some time also. When I read the description of the Trinnov, I actually became excited. I have been waiting for the electroncis and software to get to this level ever since digital appeared on the audio scene 20 some years ago.

Someone said "it's all a matter of sorting out the software". I agree. But, I can also state from my experience that developing this type of sophisticated realtime software is not trivial. I have been on projects that involved developing realtime software that were a year late, and in most cases, continued on after the product shipped. So I would expect the first version of the 997 to be faulty, and require software updates. That is simply the nature of the beast.

But, I believe this type of complete compensation is a game changer. It really is the last critical piece of the puzzle. So I will wait for it.

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#82402 - 02/12/10 08:03 AM Re: Has the Sherwood been released yet? [Re: John@Work]
EEman Offline
Desperado

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 499
Loc: Canton, MI
From what I understand from reading the Trinnov site the system should work just fine with a 2.1 input as long as the entire array of speakers are active. The Trinnov site says their algorithm works with 2-16 speakers which would seem to indicate that a 2.1 system is at least possible although it would obviously need a different correction matrix. Not sure if there's an advantage to this; I wouldn't think so.

Of course, as has been mentioned in other threads, it's all a matter of implementation. Will the Trinnov Optimizer be available for all inputs or only certain ones?

Work Saying: "There are always bugs in the software. If it appears to be working you just haven't found them yet."
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#82473 - 02/16/10 01:25 PM Re: Has the Sherwood been released yet? [Re: EEman]
og33 Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/30/07
Posts: 185
Loc: White Cloud, Michigan
Thought I'd share this here rather than starting a new thread. I was at a b&m dealer over the weekend, and I was talking with the owner about pre/processors, and I brought up the 997 that was based on the SN 972 which used Trinnov. At that, he lit up and told me that the SN rep had been in a week or so ago, and hooked up a receiver to 5 different brand speakers in his showroom. He said he fired it up and it sounded like you'd expect hooked up to 5 different speakers...'like crap'. Then, the rep ran the setup program which, he said, took about 20 minutes. After that was done, the rep put in a movie again and the dealer said it was the 'most freaking amazing thing I'd ever heard in over 30 years in audio". He said the sound was cohesive, the speakers sounded timbre matched, and there was sound 'everywhere' in the showroom...he said it was incredible. He doesn't carry SN but said he was tempted to take them on, though he wasn't sure he could sell Sherwood Newcastle in his market as 'no one knows who they are'. He was really impressed with the Trinnov though. Sounds promising for all waiting for the 997.
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#82487 - 02/17/10 03:17 AM Re: Has the Sherwood been released yet? [Re: pinku]
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Huh? Adrian Sherwood has no association with Sherwood America (the company releasing the Sherwood Newcastle R-972).
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#82585 - 03/01/10 10:19 AM Re: Has the Sherwood been released yet? [Re: gonk]
Ulli Pietsch Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 3
Another review, not exactly detailed but interesting that the video upscalling was an issue while the audio was not.

http://hometheater.about.com/b/2010/02/2...duct-review.htm

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#82587 - 03/01/10 03:11 PM Re: Has the Sherwood been released yet? [Re: Ulli Pietsch]
mdrconsult Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 124
Loc: Austin, Texas
Originally Posted By: Ulli Pietsch
Another review, not exactly detailed but interesting that the video upscalling was an issue while the audio was not.

http://hometheater.about.com/b/2010/02/2...duct-review.htm


WOW, not a very good review! If this reviewer is accurate about its inability to correctly do up-scaling then Outlaw has a great deal of work in front of them prior to releasing this box. Although this is not the most critical feature I would be looking for in my processor it is still an important one. Furthermore, I think it speaks volumes to the troubles they are having bringing this to market.

However, to be fair, I do question this review somewhat. I find it really hard to believe that they would be releasing something with that fundamental of a problem. Could this really be just a bad review, i.e. this reviewer is suffering from FOP. BTW, those of you who have never worked on technical help desks FOP stands for F%&^* Operator Problems.

Either way, I am really getting close to jumping ship. There are so many very good systems coming out know I am finding it hard to justify continuing to wait for Outlaw to deliver on the 997. Especially when there is no ETA in sight. I really do like the concept behind the Trinnov Optimizer Room Correction. Has anyone else come to market with it in their processor? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. So what other processors are people looking at instead of a 997? I know about the Onkyo that Outlaw is selling and yet a newer one that Onkyo has the PR-SC5507 which seems to be in Europe only. I looked at the Emotiva, but was underwhelmed. What other ones are out there worth looking at?
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