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#80110 - 09/24/08 07:25 PM Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Scott Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 673
Hello Outlaws!

We have just posted the Model 997's preliminary specifications as well as a partial feature list. You may also join our Pre-reservation Status List:

Model 997 Product Page

Enjoy,

Scott

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#80111 - 09/24/08 07:39 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Well aren't you guys fancy? I put myself on the list for notification, but I'll have you know that I'm deeply disappointed there aren't pictures of it there for us to discuss and dissect while we wait. I guess the feature list will have to suffice.... wink
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#80112 - 09/24/08 07:41 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
ndskurfer Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/27/08
Posts: 120
Loc: Bismarck, ND
Love the Trinnov details.

Should be interesting to play with the "Before/After Curves" through USB....

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#80113 - 09/24/08 08:20 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Dr_JB Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 215
Loc: Ontairo, Canada
Is Hdmi 1.3 backward compatible with previous versions of this interface?

thanks,

John

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#80114 - 09/24/08 08:29 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
grimster Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/29/06
Posts: 153
Loc: Somewhere in Virginia
Signed up, so where is the Beta testing sign-up sheet for the 997, thats right, did that when I purchased the 990/7700 combo.
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#80115 - 09/24/08 08:36 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
grimster Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/29/06
Posts: 153
Loc: Somewhere in Virginia
I am so thrilled to see this unit getting ready for release. This is what I've been waiting for, a kick a$$ pre/pro for a kick a$$ price. Way to go Outlaw.
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My Theater

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#80116 - 09/24/08 08:47 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Dr_JB:
Is Hdmi 1.3 backward compatible with previous versions of this interface?

thanks,

John
Yes, it is. An HDMI v1.3 input will function with an HDMI v1.0 source, an HDMI v1.1 source, an HDMI v1.2 source, or an HDMI v1.3 source. It will even work with the video signal from a DVI source, although you'll need to get your audio separately of course.
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gonk
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#80117 - 09/24/08 09:54 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
grimster Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/29/06
Posts: 153
Loc: Somewhere in Virginia
I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this especially after being told the 997 is basically a "supercharged" 990, will the 997 have a Phono Input, my guess is definitely.
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#80118 - 09/24/08 10:03 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Actually, the word that we've received from Peter Tribeman is "no" - the R-972/Model 997 platform does not include a phono input. I think some of the discussion about it got Peter thinking about an "RR2150-grade" phono pre-amp, though...
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#80119 - 09/24/08 10:50 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Retep Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/19/06
Posts: 266
Loc: Tauranga, New Zealand
Quote:
Originally posted by gonk:
Well aren't you guys fancy? I put myself on the list for notification, but I'll have you know that I'm deeply disappointed there aren't pictures of it there for us to discuss and dissect while we wait. I guess the feature list will have to suffice.... wink
A picture is worth a thousand words. smile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_picture_is_worth_a_thousand_words

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#80120 - 09/25/08 01:20 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
FAUguy Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 12/05/05
Posts: 247
Loc: FL
Quote:
Originally posted by ndskurfer:
Love the Trinnov details.

Should be interesting to play with the "Before/After Curves" through USB....
Why can't it be viewed via TV, like on the SMS-1?
I don't have a laptop PC.
When doing the firmware upgrade on the 990, I had to disconnect it and hull it upstairs.

I guess the 997 will also not have XLR inputs for a CD/SACD player?

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#80121 - 09/25/08 01:50 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
glenee Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 07/07/06
Posts: 37
I'm also interested in the XLR inputs for a CD Player.

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#80122 - 09/25/08 02:16 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
aeroguy Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Folsom CA
If you haven't noticed there is a picture of what might be the 997 on the Outlaw Home page. Looks remarkably like the 990. Signed up and can't wait, but I'll have too.
_________________________
Outlaw 976
Outlaw 7500
OPPO-103
Sony Bravia 52" XBR
DirectV
Apple TV
Infinity Speakers
Home Built Sub+800 WRMS Amp
Blue Jeans and PPC Cables
Phillips Home Theater Power Conditioner
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#80123 - 09/25/08 02:39 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Retep Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/19/06
Posts: 266
Loc: Tauranga, New Zealand
Quote:
Originally posted by aeroguy:
If you haven't noticed there is a picture of what might be the 997 on the Outlaw Home page. Looks remarkably like the 990. Signed up and can't wait, but I'll have too.
I don't see the image and the one that's on the product(s) page is of the 990.

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#80124 - 09/25/08 03:09 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
FAUguy Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 12/05/05
Posts: 247
Loc: FL
Quote:
Originally posted by aeroguy:
If you haven't noticed there is a picture of what might be the 997 on the Outlaw Home page. Looks remarkably like the 990. Signed up and can't wait, but I'll have too.
Both the 997 and 990 show the same thumnail image:

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#80125 - 09/25/08 11:01 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
glenee Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 07/07/06
Posts: 37
Is there anyone here from Outlaw that knows if the 997 will have XLR Balanced inputs for a CD Player etc ? Would somebody who knows PLEASE answer this Question ?

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#80126 - 09/25/08 11:54 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
rance Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 99
Loc: Boston. MA
I haven't been in the Saloon much lately, just occasionally checking for news on the 990 replacement. Well I checked yesterday and holy moly! The 997 looks like one heck of a piece of equipment and at that price is quite amazing. Signed up this morning and can't wait!

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#80127 - 09/25/08 01:22 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Scott Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 673
Hello gleenee,

The Model 997 will not offer a stereo XLR input.

Scott

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#80128 - 09/25/08 04:25 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
psyprof1 Offline
Desperado

Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 443
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
No phono - no 997.

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#80129 - 09/25/08 04:30 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
XenonMan Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2676
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
Keep the 990 for analog phono stuff and leave the 997 to the digital future.
_________________________
Music system
Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD
APC H15 Power Conditioner

TV System
Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv


Home Theater System
Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv
Harmony ONE
Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects
APC H15 Power Conditioner

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#80130 - 09/25/08 07:53 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
NRBQLou Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 122
Loc: Denver, CO USA
Quote:
Originally posted by XenonMan:
Keep the 990 for analog phono stuff and leave the 997 to the digital future.
Not sure what kind of shelf space you got yerself there, X-man, but I just wouldn't have room for another steamer-trunk-sized box. Pretty disappointed in the "no phono" news, as it effectively wipes out several hundred bucks for a good phono preamp, making the 997 much less of a good deal.
_________________________
Integra DRX 3.1, Outlaw 5000
Fronts - Golden Ear Triton 2, Center - Martin Logan Motion 8, Surround L/R - Energy Audissey A5+2,
Sony XBR65X850E
Oppo BDP-83, Sony UBP-X800
Roku Streaming Stick +
Music Hall mm5.1 table, Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge, Cambridge Audio 640P Phono Preamp, Pro-Ject Speed Box
Belkin Pure AV Power Conditioner
Audioquest Type 8 speaker cable, Monoprice speaker Cable
Mostly Monoprice interconnects

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#80131 - 09/25/08 09:47 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
SoundOfMind Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
I understand being unhappy about a lack of phono input. I and many others would be unhappy to pay for something we will never use.
_________________________
Outlaw 990
(2) Behringer DEQ2496 (L,R,C,Sub)
Home Theater Master MX-800
DirecTV HR20-700
PS3, XBox
Denon DVD-1910
Squeezebox using FLAC files
Panasonic PT-AE700U (upgrading)
Gemstone Blue Diamond 7x200W
Dali Helicon 400/C200/Phantom
Velodyne 15" Sub

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#80132 - 09/25/08 11:58 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
XenonMan Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2676
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
It not a matter of room for me. I will keep both in separate homes. I agree with those out there that are tired of paying to make systems backwards compatible with analog equipment. There are plenty of owners of LPs who can easily equip their 997 with a phono pre-amp vice forcing the rest to pay for inputs we will never use. At the intro price the 997 is easily affordable for anyone who wants a quality HT platform WITH all the bells and whistles.

I would imagine that the Outlaws looked at the size of the cabinet and decided if they were going to put 4 HDMI in and one out they would have to cut out something or make the cabinet even larger. It only makes sense to get the 997 up to state of the art. After all, how many of us have heard the complaints about the lack of HDMI vs DVI. And now we are going to hear how it lacks a phono input.
_________________________
Music system
Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD
APC H15 Power Conditioner

TV System
Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv


Home Theater System
Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv
Harmony ONE
Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects
APC H15 Power Conditioner

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#80133 - 09/26/08 05:40 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Relentless Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 81
Loc: Chicago,IL
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott:
Hello gleenee,

The Model 997 will not offer a stereo XLR input.

Scott
confused and Disappointed
_________________________
Lou...

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#80134 - 09/26/08 11:22 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Bri1270 Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 117
Loc: Mass
I'm very disappointed that there's only a single HDMI output. I was really hoping for 2 as it would eliminate the need for an external switcher.

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#80135 - 09/26/08 11:44 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
lanion Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 161
My RR2150 has a a phono input -- if it will ever be used.

I don't want to pay for stuff I won't ever even try using. The 997 is perfect for me.

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#80136 - 09/26/08 03:16 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
OldeBob Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1
Loc: Washington, D.C.
Does anyone know if the 997 will accept DSD via HDMI? I'm thinking of buying the Oppo 980 or their upcoming Blu-ray BDP S83.

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#80137 - 09/26/08 03:21 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
DaveHo Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally posted by OldeBob:
Does anyone know if the 997 will accept DSD via HDMI? I'm thinking of buying the Oppo 980 or their upcoming Blu-ray BDP S83.
Me too!
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-Dave

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#80138 - 09/26/08 03:42 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
I checked the large Sherwood 972 thread to see of any mention of DSD support had cropped up, but didn't see anything there. We'll have to wait and see...
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gonk
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Reviews: Index | 990 | speakers | BDP-93

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#80139 - 09/26/08 04:26 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
butchgo Offline
Desperado

Registered: 06/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: Southern Oregon coast
Gonk,
Do you have the link to the Sherwood 972 thread?
Thanks,
Butchgo
_________________________
Epson 3500 3D projector
93" Carl's Place Flexiwhite DIY screen
Outlaw 976 Pre/Pro
Outlaw 7500 for LCR & L/R surrounds
1- Emotiva Mini X-A100 for rear surrounds
2- Outlaw LFM-1 EX subs
Oppo BDP-105 Blu-ray/DVD/SACD player
Outlaw LCR (Snell Labs) for center channel duty
Tekton Lore monitors L/R
4- Emotiva ERD-1s surround speakers
Monster HTS3600MKII power center

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#80140 - 09/26/08 04:57 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
John Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 10
Loc: Franklin, TN USA
Any chance for independent sub outputs, for L & R placement?
_________________________
Outlaw Model 950
nOrh marble 9.0's and marble 4.0's
VMPS New Orginal subs
nOrh Le Amp monoblocks
QSC PLX-1602 amp

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#80141 - 09/26/08 05:52 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
sb-avnut Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 99
Loc: Chicago - W. Suburbs, IL
SN-972 thread info:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=785388&page=25

Read backwards from Page 25 (latest page). Don't bother reading from Page 1 - info is too old (Jan 07) and specs have changed...
_________________________
BSMNT HT - Oppo DV-970HD,Tos HD-A2,Emo LMC-1/Onkyo TX-SR705, Outlaw 7125,PSB Image 4T 8C 10S, Outlaw LFM-1+,Panny PT-AE900U, DIY 106" fixed screen

LIVRM 2ch - Philips 963SA,Lexicon DC-1,Carver AV-505,Von Schweikert VR-2,Sony KDF-E42A10

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#80142 - 09/26/08 05:56 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
butchgo Offline
Desperado

Registered: 06/22/07
Posts: 369
Loc: Southern Oregon coast
Thank you. smile
_________________________
Epson 3500 3D projector
93" Carl's Place Flexiwhite DIY screen
Outlaw 976 Pre/Pro
Outlaw 7500 for LCR & L/R surrounds
1- Emotiva Mini X-A100 for rear surrounds
2- Outlaw LFM-1 EX subs
Oppo BDP-105 Blu-ray/DVD/SACD player
Outlaw LCR (Snell Labs) for center channel duty
Tekton Lore monitors L/R
4- Emotiva ERD-1s surround speakers
Monster HTS3600MKII power center

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#80143 - 09/26/08 06:34 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
blaineh Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 84
Where is the HD radio tuner? Please tell me you put one in...

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#80144 - 09/26/08 06:39 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
blaineh Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 84
Well, I suppose I could get a outboard tuner, but geese...
It's also true that this trinova and a QUAD mike is so what I need...biamping capability...WOW.
Umm, but could you shoehorn in the HD radio tuner please? I mean, the bit rate blows away lossy sat radio. Thing is, the Integra includes HD radio, you know.

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#80145 - 09/26/08 08:51 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
rmilewsk Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 68
Even though I didn't see any mention of it I'm assuming the other new lossy audio codecs are supported.

Dolby Digital Plus

DTS High Resolution Audio
_________________________
990/7500/harmony one

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#80146 - 09/26/08 09:57 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
I would concur with that assumption.
_________________________
gonk
HT Basics | HDMI FAQ | Pics | Remote Files | Art Show
Reviews: Index | 990 | speakers | BDP-93

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#80147 - 09/27/08 12:33 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
mdrconsult Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 126
Loc: Austin, Texas
Blaineh,

I am not sure what the actual bit rate is compared between the two, HD Radio vs. Sat. Radio. My experience with Sat. radio is only with Sirius which has a much better technology then does XM. However, I can say that the sound quality I get from my home receiver driven thru my 990 is quite good! In fact I would say that on some of the dedicated music channels the quality is approaching that of a standard CD. I have listened to HD radio but only in cars and I was less then impressed, granted that could be related to the quality of the car system as well.

Does anybody know what the true rates are for these two technologies? I did some research and found some information thru Wikipedia (which I don't always trust). The following is a quick summary of what they reported relative to the bit rates of the two technologies.

People should not be confused by the term HD Radio it really means Hybrid Digital Radio and not High Definition! In general for HD Radio braodcasting via an FM signal they are allowed around 300Kb/sec, not entirely clear what the exact number is, which to me seems rather strange. However this bandwidth would be for all the different programs that would be broadcast on that particular frequency. Therefore, it will be entirely upto the radio station to decide the the bit rate to be used on any given stream. But certainly there should be enough there for stereo CD quality or even multi-channel programing. However, please note that this bit rate will only be possible if and when the FCC allows a radio station to stop broadcasting its analog signal. So under the current restrictions they are not able to use anywhere near that 300Kb/sec bit rate. Although I could not find any information as to what rates they are using. Also, I could not find whether they are using any sort of compression algorithms, my guess is they are not.

Sirius Satellite obviously is using a radically different technology. First of all the available bandwidth is substantially higher. But granted that bandwidth must be shared among all of the different channels. However, the bandwidth is not shared evenly. In fact there is quite a bit of difference between the channels, i.e. talk shows and news channels get much less of the pipe while the music channels get quite a bit more. One of the ways they pack all of this into the pipe is by using Perceptual Audio Coder (PAC) which is a very good compression algorithm. Here is a short description from Wikipedia:


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Perceptual Audio Coder (PAC) is an algorithm, like MPEG's MP3 standard, used to compress digital audio by removing extraneous information not perceived by most people. It is used by Sirius Satellite Radio for their DARS service, and iBiquity has been testing it for their IBOC digital radio upgrade for FM and AM. PAC is very similar to Advanced Audio Coding, the latter sharing many design elements.

The PAC originally developed by Elemedia, a subsidiary of Bell Labs, has a flexible format and bitrate. It provides efficient compression of high-quality audio over a variety of formats from 16 kb/s for a monophonic channel to 1024 kb/s for a 5.1 format with four or six auxiliary audio channels, and provisions for an ancillary (fixed rate) and auxiliary (variable rate) side data channel. For stereo audio signals, it is claimed that it provides near compact disc (CD) quality at about 56-64 kb/s, with transparent coding at bit rates approaching 128 kb/s[citation needed]. In the 1993, ISO-MPEG-2 5-channel test, PAC demonstrated the best decoded audio signal quality available from any algorithm at 320 kb/s, far outperforming all algorithms, including the layer-II and layer-III backward compatible algorithms.[citation needed]

Over the years PAC has evolved considerably. A known software implementation of this codec is CelestialTech's AudioLib. Later, it was considerably improved and renamed to ePAC (enhanced Perceptual Audio Coder) by Lucent. It's available in the AudioVeda music library manager.

The non-capitalized term is used to describe lossy compression codecs that utilize perceptual coding techniques for audio.


As you can see the available bit rates are quite high. My only concern is that it appears that the PAC routine is a "lossy" type compression.

Now having looked at all of that I still come back to what does the side by side listening tests reveal. I have not been able to test it side by side on the same system so I can't answer the question. But it appears on paper that Sirius music channels should hold up quite well as compared to the HD Radio of today. Has anyone out there compared them side by side, what was your experience?
_________________________
Emotiva XMC-1, Outlaw 7500, Sonus Faber Olympica III Fronts, SF Liuto Center, SF Surrounds, LFM-1 EX, Oppo BDP-103D, Apple TV (Gen. 4), Mitsubishi 65" Diamond DLP, Outlaw Cables, PS Audio Power Quintet, Duet and power cords.

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#80148 - 09/28/08 01:04 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
blaineh Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 84
Thanks, I thought hd radio was minimal compression, but that was only a guess.
I looked at the SN product, and I really liked the complement of pushbuttons. It's way too late to ask, but i really hated that the 990 didn't have direct access buttons; just the multifuntion arrangement which requires me to stand there and study the screen and push several buttons just to change sources. I REALLY REALLY hope we get bigger buttons and direct access like the SN product...

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#80149 - 09/28/08 03:43 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
NRBQLou Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 122
Loc: Denver, CO USA
Quote:
Originally posted by XenonMan:
It not a matter of room for me. I will keep both in separate homes. I agree with those out there that are tired of paying to make systems backwards compatible with analog equipment. There are plenty of owners of LPs who can easily equip their 997 with a phono pre-amp vice forcing the rest to pay for inputs we will never use. At the intro price the 997 is easily affordable for anyone who wants a quality HT platform WITH all the bells and whistles.

I would imagine that the Outlaws looked at the size of the cabinet and decided if they were going to put 4 HDMI in and one out they would have to cut out something or make the cabinet even larger. It only makes sense to get the 997 up to state of the art. After all, how many of us have heard the complaints about the lack of HDMI vs DVI. And now we are going to hear how it lacks a phono input.
Most of my components use either digital coax or optical connections, yet I have no objection to "paying for" the analog connections that go unused on the back of my 990. I also rarely use the headphone jack, but have no problem "paying for" its presence. Really, does anyone use everything that our pre-pros provide? Maybe some do, but I'd wager not most. The "I don't want to pay for what I'm not going to use" argument is specious, at best. And by the way, as a recent "returner" to the joys of vinyl (lots of which also come with a free download so getting the music on your iPod or in your car is no big deal), I truly believe that LPs are a growth industry once again. My local indpendent record store just doubled the size of its vinyl section, and has plans for further expansion. The lack of a phono output is not only disappointing and potentially a deal killer (for me)- it is also subscribing to a school of thought that is at least a few years old and is becoming more invalid every day.
_________________________
Integra DRX 3.1, Outlaw 5000
Fronts - Golden Ear Triton 2, Center - Martin Logan Motion 8, Surround L/R - Energy Audissey A5+2,
Sony XBR65X850E
Oppo BDP-83, Sony UBP-X800
Roku Streaming Stick +
Music Hall mm5.1 table, Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge, Cambridge Audio 640P Phono Preamp, Pro-Ject Speed Box
Belkin Pure AV Power Conditioner
Audioquest Type 8 speaker cable, Monoprice speaker Cable
Mostly Monoprice interconnects

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#80150 - 09/28/08 04:18 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
dengor Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 42
Loc: newtown, pa us
I also listen to vinyl, but did not find the lack of a turntable input on the 950 to a deal-breaker. Plenty of small standalone turntable pre-amps are available. Expensive models cost several hundred dollars, but I am very happy with a less expensive model that was only about $50.

It is not much bigger than 3 or 4 inches, so space is not an issue. As a plus, it amplifies the signal very close to the turntable, so the longer run to the 950 is already amplified and so it is much less susceptible to picking up hum.

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#80151 - 09/28/08 07:55 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
sluggo Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 361
Loc: Plano, TX
It's nice to know that vinyl thrives, however CE manufacturers are faced with a real problem of having to cram more and more connections on the back panels of their units as tech is added, and in prioritizing it is not surprising that they're marginalizing the phono preamp. Units comparable to the 997 (ie Anthem Marantz Parasound) that include balanced outs and HD switching are going the same way.

You may think this is a good or bad thing, but were I enjoying vinyl, I would want a separate phono preamp for two reasons: so I could buy a nice prepro or receiver without limiting my options, and so I wouldn't end up being stuck with a supbar built-in preamp in any unit that I did buy.
_________________________
--Greg

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#80152 - 09/28/08 10:37 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
NRBQLou Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 122
Loc: Denver, CO USA
Hey Sluggo, point well taken, but I already have a separate phone pre-amp (a holdover from my 950) and celebrated, along with others on this forum if memory serves, the inclusion of a phono input on the 990). I still think that Outlaw could have easily gotten rid of some analog space-wasters (I mean, VCR and cassette deck input/outputs? talk about needless!) and included a decent phono pre-amp in the design of the 997.
_________________________
Integra DRX 3.1, Outlaw 5000
Fronts - Golden Ear Triton 2, Center - Martin Logan Motion 8, Surround L/R - Energy Audissey A5+2,
Sony XBR65X850E
Oppo BDP-83, Sony UBP-X800
Roku Streaming Stick +
Music Hall mm5.1 table, Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge, Cambridge Audio 640P Phono Preamp, Pro-Ject Speed Box
Belkin Pure AV Power Conditioner
Audioquest Type 8 speaker cable, Monoprice speaker Cable
Mostly Monoprice interconnects

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#80153 - 09/28/08 11:05 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Jeff Mackwood Offline
Desperado

Registered: 12/19/02
Posts: 427
Until one can record using HDMI, analogue connections will be required for some form of recording device - be it a DVD Recorder or, in future, BDR (since I doubt that Hollywood will ever permit digital to digital recording.)

And I don't know what they might be, but just as we used to have a set of analogue RCA jacks that could be unjumpered to allow an external processor of some sort, I can imagine a future where one could insert some device in a similar fashion - only through the use of an HDMI connection.

Heck on the phono side, why not an external device that acts as a phone pre-amp / click and pop reducer / dynamic range expander, etc. all in one - with an HDMI output?

Just getting carried away.
_________________________
Jeff Mackwood

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#80154 - 09/29/08 12:05 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Altec Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 334
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Mackwood:

Heck on the phono side, why not an external device that acts as a phone pre-amp / click and pop reducer / dynamic range expander, etc. all in one - with an HDMI output?
OUCH! Please tell me you were just kidding. eek

For me at least, the whole point of vinyl is it's musical / sonic purity. Dynamic range expanders (not really needed anyway) and click and pop reducers must by their very nature compromise the sound. Analog processing of this type just does not work. Dynamics processors in particular have a horrible time dealing with mixed program material, owing to their one-size-fits-all time constants. For recording, dynamics processing is used all the time, but that is with single instruments, especially vocals, but that's a completely different usage.

And HDMI - are you saying you would want to convert your vinyl analog to digital, then back to analog again before it goes to the power amp? Doesn't that defeat the point?

Vinyl playback offers the most musically direct connection to the original recording artists possible. I sure wouldn't want to muck up that purity with any manner of post processing, especially considering it's not needed.

For the record (pun intended), I would recommend an outboard phono preamp for the highest quality possible from the medium. Also, I would recommend a separate stereo preamplifier for music only listening, with a HT preamp like the 997 feeding it's left and right outputs into one set of inputs of the stereo preamp for movie sound. HT preamps, no matter how good, just cannot match the sonic purity of a dedicated stereo preamp due to the extremely complex and lengthy signal path necessary to accommodate all the HT inputs/outputs/features.

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#80155 - 09/29/08 12:14 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Dr_JB Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 215
Loc: Ontairo, Canada
Altec,

well said and explained.

John

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#80156 - 09/29/08 06:03 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
bobliinds Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 221
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
OK, I'm only posting this so that Altec's conservative thoughts will look positively progressive. wink (Actually I think I told him this story once.)

MANY years ago, I purchased a Granada model Victrola at an antique store. It's an ancient acoustical, windup record player circa 1925 (unfortunately, my ex-wife took it in the divorce). When I got it home, I put in an old acoustical recording and, despite the high level of surface noise and the artificial resonances of the acoustical recording (no mics here, they sang into the horn and a needle scratched the wax), there was SOMETHING about that recording that sounded incredibly real. My only explanation was that some aspect of the performance was directly conveyed in that primitive recording process that was missing with the advent of electrical recording.

Would I want to listen to music that way? Absolutely not. But it taught me that A.)I'm crazy (high likelihood), or B.)the human ear is capable of resolving incredible subtlety in sounds, no matter what compromises may be in place.

Sooo, there is something that IMO is even more direct than electrically recording vinyl playback and that is acoustically recorded vinyl playback.

OK, it's time for me to return to the secure area. I'll write again when the doctor lets me near the computer. (Sure beats writing with crayon.)

We now return to our conversation about the 997 (which I'm HIGHLY anticipating, by the way.)

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#80157 - 09/29/08 12:10 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
It's hard to follow behind bob's post (glad they let you trade the crayons for a keyboard, by the way), but I think it's worth remembering what we're facing when talking about a modern SSP. There's the long-familiar aspects of home theater (component video inputs, coaxial and optical audio inputs, and a 7.1 analog for those stubborn multichannel analog sources). There's the new face of home theater (HDMI v1.3, with its army of new audio codecs, its digital video, and its ornery HDCP police). There's the bevy of speakers to support (7.1 output, bass management, time delays, channel trims, RCA/XLR output requests, calls for multiple subwoofer outputs). There's the long-familiar video switching (including transcoding composite and s-video to component for those random devices like VHS, LaserDisc, and some game consoles as well as the component inputs themselves). There's the new era of video processing (transcoding all those analog sources to digital, scaling and deinterlacing, 3:2 pulldown, video bypass modes, and so forth). There's an expectation of room correction (be it Audyssey, Trinnov, or some other creature). There's a remote that is expected to control the SSP and probably whatever other devices are around it (although I still prefer a third-party universal so I can get just what I like). There's an interface for installing firmware updates, maybe an RS232 port for integration with fancy control systems, and the occasional request for a network interface. There's a second zone for feeding those dining room or deck speakers. There's even the radio, which is no longer merely AM/FM - now we're asking about HD Radio, XM Radio, and Sirius as well. The only reasons we see stereo analog inputs at all is because we need them for those same devices that we're keeping composite and s-video for (and because by "simply" feeding them through an ADC we can lump them in with everything else) and for the occasional high-quality analog source (which could be a standalone DAC, a high-end CD player, or - yes - a turntable with phono pre-amp). After all of that gets taken care of, is there still time / energy / budget to include a phono pre-amp of significant performance (something on par with what the RR2150 got)? If something is going to give in all of this, it's not surprising that the phono pre-amp is high on the list, especially since many home theaters aren't going to include vinyl.
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#80158 - 09/29/08 02:49 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
sluggo Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 361
Loc: Plano, TX
Well put, Gonk...my post earlier started with details like yours, but I'm glad I edited down, yours is much better.

The most important thing to remember about this unit is that it cannot be all things to all people. Being that it is a Home Theater preamp, it must be all things (or as close to it as possible) to the HT enthusiast, all other considerations are secondary.

In this forum and others there are tons of posts from stereophiles jumping through hoops to maintain separate listening settings for their HT and 2 channel listening in the same setup. While it's good that people have been able to do so (and my admiration to those who did for their fortitude), it's clear that the two specialties are becoming divergent in enough ways that high quality all-in-one solutions will fade away.
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#80159 - 09/29/08 03:03 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
grimster Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/29/06
Posts: 153
Loc: Somewhere in Virginia
I'm with you guys on the 997 not having a phono input, my dedicated H/T room is simply that, for gaming, movies and watching the satellite, have no desire to listen to music in that room, if I wanna listen to music, I go to the 2-channel setup in the game room. I only asked about the phono input for another guy on another forum. The 997 not having a phono input by no way makes a deciding factor on my purchase of the 997, as a matter of fact, once the pre-order opens I'm hoping to be the first in line to place my order (provided I have the funds at the time).
_________________________
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#80160 - 10/02/08 12:59 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
NRBQLou Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 122
Loc: Denver, CO USA
So are we assuming that the 2 channel capabilities of the 997 will be somehow inferior and therefore should need a stereo receiver? Is Outlaw going to downplay the 2 channel capabilities of this rig? I doubt it. I live in a loft, which is essentially one big room, and 2 separate audio systems is simply not possible. I think it's great that people can have two setups, and I would if I could, but in the meanwhile I threw my cassette deck in the trash years ago so I don't need or want those analog input/outputs, and I still maintain that us turntable users (and no, we are not anachronistic old hippies, we just like the way it sounds) could be spared a little spot on the back of this rig for a phono input. Hey, I have no freaking use for the tuner on this thing, but I respect the desires of others to have it. AM Radio band? What does that have to do with home theater?
_________________________
Integra DRX 3.1, Outlaw 5000
Fronts - Golden Ear Triton 2, Center - Martin Logan Motion 8, Surround L/R - Energy Audissey A5+2,
Sony XBR65X850E
Oppo BDP-83, Sony UBP-X800
Roku Streaming Stick +
Music Hall mm5.1 table, Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge, Cambridge Audio 640P Phono Preamp, Pro-Ject Speed Box
Belkin Pure AV Power Conditioner
Audioquest Type 8 speaker cable, Monoprice speaker Cable
Mostly Monoprice interconnects

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#80161 - 10/02/08 01:24 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Quote:
So are we assuming that the 2 channel capabilities of the 997 will be somehow inferior and therefore should need a stereo receiver? Is Outlaw going to downplay the 2 channel capabilities of this rig? I doubt it.
No, I don't think so, either. However, the number of turntables that you can find in home theater installations is pretty small these days - and those who do have them are more likely to be retaining them for audio quality, not out of simple inertia. As a result, they deserve to be partnered with a good phono pre-amp. Putting such a device into something with as many different requirements already on it is going to start to impact cost for something that most users won't use. Putting a merely functional phono pre in creates an even worse scenario: folks without turntables are still paying for it, and folks with turntables pay for it and then end up wanting to get a separate phono pre to get better performance. It becomes a juggling act / judgment call for the design team, and there is no right answer.
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#80162 - 10/02/08 06:06 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
XenonMan Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2676
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
WAAAAAHHHHH!!!! Buy a phono pre amp for crying out loud. If you want that technology because it sounds so much better, then break out the old wallet and go buy the equipment needed to use it. Perhaps we should install quadrophonic inputs for the .0001% of the users who may have ever heard of it.
_________________________
Music system
Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD
APC H15 Power Conditioner

TV System
Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv


Home Theater System
Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv
Harmony ONE
Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects
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#80163 - 10/03/08 12:45 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
NRBQLou Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 122
Loc: Denver, CO USA
Quote:
Originally posted by XenonMan:
WAAAAAHHHHH!!!! Buy a phono pre amp for crying out loud. If you want that technology because it sounds so much better, then break out the old wallet and go buy the equipment needed to use it. Perhaps we should install quadrophonic inputs for the .0001% of the users who may have ever heard of it.
so much for a discussion of the features and capabilities of the new pre-pro - let's get derisive and dismissive - hope you like the sound of your subwoofer blowing out your windows while you watch your stupid action movies - asshat
_________________________
Integra DRX 3.1, Outlaw 5000
Fronts - Golden Ear Triton 2, Center - Martin Logan Motion 8, Surround L/R - Energy Audissey A5+2,
Sony XBR65X850E
Oppo BDP-83, Sony UBP-X800
Roku Streaming Stick +
Music Hall mm5.1 table, Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge, Cambridge Audio 640P Phono Preamp, Pro-Ject Speed Box
Belkin Pure AV Power Conditioner
Audioquest Type 8 speaker cable, Monoprice speaker Cable
Mostly Monoprice interconnects

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#80164 - 10/03/08 01:26 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Let's keep this civil guys - the truth is that it is basically impossible to satisfy everyone, but that doesn't mean people lose the right to be disappointed when a feature they care about falls off the drawing board - no matter how strong the argument is in favor of the omission.
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#80165 - 10/04/08 10:41 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
mdanderson Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 161
Loc: Garland,Tx. USA
Will the discount apply to original 950 owners like myself? I am still enjoying my 950 very much.
_________________________
Paradigm Studio 20v5-fronts
Paradigm Studio CC-490v5-center
Paradigm Studio 10v5- side surrounds,Monitor surround 3v7-bck surr
Oppo UDP-205/LG 65C6
Outlaw 976 prepro/ Emotiva BasX A-700 amp
Power Sound Audio 15S

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#80166 - 10/05/08 01:19 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
I'm afraid not, the discount is for owners of Model 990's and Model 970's.
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#80167 - 10/05/08 02:25 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
JHoff80 Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 104
Not that I'm going to ever be a early adopter (aka beta tester) for an Outlaw product again, but is there any reason that us 1070 owners who also have been dealing with the same and maybe even worse bugs than the 970 should be left out of this discount if we want to upgrade to separates?

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#80168 - 10/05/08 05:10 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
It can't hurt to ask them...
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#80169 - 10/06/08 04:55 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
mdanderson Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 161
Loc: Garland,Tx. USA
Quote:
Originally posted by gonk:
I'm afraid not, the discount is for owners of Model 990's and Model 970's.
Thanks gonk.
_________________________
Paradigm Studio 20v5-fronts
Paradigm Studio CC-490v5-center
Paradigm Studio 10v5- side surrounds,Monitor surround 3v7-bck surr
Oppo UDP-205/LG 65C6
Outlaw 976 prepro/ Emotiva BasX A-700 amp
Power Sound Audio 15S

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#80170 - 10/12/08 02:28 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
kjohn Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 4
Loc: Canada
What is the projected date on the release of this processor.
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KJ

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#80171 - 10/12/08 07:17 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Jeff Mackwood Offline
Desperado

Registered: 12/19/02
Posts: 427
Altec,

Was not joking.

If I'm going to pull out a vinyl record (because I don't have it on CD or SACD) then I prefer to listen to it with a judicious touch of dynamic range expansion and some elimination of clicks and pops.

That's how I prefer it - and I believe it sounds much better that way (and closer to the clean dynamics of CD).

On a new pre/pro I would prefer that all sources fed it digitally - but if I do need to feed it an analogue signal (say from my phono chain) then once there I want it converted to digital and kept that way (for switching / processing / who-knows-what-in-future)until it's then fed in analogue form to my amps. And if I'm going to be moving signals around digitally I'd prefer that it were through a simple single connection like HDMI.

I personally don't see a need (or a "point") to seek an all-analogue signal path. Digital does not offend me - or my hearing.

I'm neither preaching nor trying to convert anyone. Just answering your questions as honestly as possible.

Jeff Mackwood
_________________________
Jeff Mackwood

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#80172 - 10/12/08 07:26 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Altec Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 334
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Mackwood:
Altec,

Was not joking.

If I'm going to pull out a vinyl record (because I don't have it on CD or SACD) then I prefer to listen to it with a judicious touch of dynamic range expansion and some elimination of clicks and pops.



Jeff Mackwood
Oh well, different strokes for different folks. wink

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#80173 - 10/13/08 02:02 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Quote:
Originally posted by kjohn:
What is the projected date on the release of this processor.
We're not sure - sounds like early part of next year, though.
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#80174 - 10/15/08 05:45 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Hank Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/30/01
Posts: 348
Loc: Austin, Texas, USA
Why would Outlaw leave us early customers (950) out of the discount deal?
_________________________
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"No Mr. Bond, I expect you to die!"

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#80175 - 10/16/08 04:44 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Keta Offline
Desperado

Registered: 12/29/02
Posts: 358
Loc: Central VA
Quote:
Originally posted by Hank:
Why would Outlaw leave us early customers (950) out of the discount deal?
Because the discount isn't for loyalty, it is a sales tool used to entice potential buyers into purchasing a piece of equipment (i.e. 990) that would soon be discontinued.

I would like to see some sort of "loyalty" discount from companies such as Outlaw. Companies who try to use the idea of being part of the "family" or hanging out together in their forums should try and capitalize on the loyalty angle by rewarding all customers.
An example of the loyalty discount happened with a recently purchased new vehicle, $2000 discount for owning the same brand car. Age, value or condition didn't matter, just rewarding me for staying with the brand.

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#80176 - 10/16/08 05:11 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Early on, Outlaw had a "family discount" where an owner of one Outlaw product could get $50 off of another. (I did this when I bought my 750 based on having bought the 1050 previously, and then again on the 950.) As I recall, they replaced it with the package deals due to record-keeping concerns (it would have been more straightforward when they had a product line of two to five items total and a small base of existing customers). It might be cool to see something similar return...
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#80177 - 10/16/08 09:41 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
PeterT Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 263
wait

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#80178 - 10/24/08 11:12 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Hank Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/30/01
Posts: 348
Loc: Austin, Texas, USA
Keta, I'm not referring to the current products' discount, I'm talking about the future product's discount. I sent Outlaw my money when they were new and a real gamble in the marketplace. New, unknown, no financials to look at - they may have lasted a year and then us early adopters would have been left out in the cold. I really liked their business model and NON condescending attitude towards their customers and potential customers, so I really do not understand why us early supporters are left out of the discount deal.
_________________________
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#80179 - 10/24/08 11:27 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
I know that Peter's post is a bit cryptic, Hank, but it suggests to me that we might see something on the horizon that would offer something to customers from back before the 990/970 generation. Could be good news...
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#80180 - 10/24/08 01:09 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
mzpro5 Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 12/05/05
Posts: 240
Loc: The Northcoast
SVS has a standing 5% discount for returning customers. Nice deal.
_________________________
Outlaw 990/7700
SVS 20-39 PC +
SVS MTS-01 towers, MCS-01 center, MBS-01 surrounds
Behringer A500
Samsung PN58A650, DirecTV HR-20 700
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#80181 - 10/24/08 02:56 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Keta Offline
Desperado

Registered: 12/29/02
Posts: 358
Loc: Central VA
Quote:
Originally posted by Hank:
Keta, I'm not referring to the current products' discount, I'm talking about the future product's discount.
I'm right there with you Hank, I also bought the 950 and 770 early on. When my 950 went south I just went with the "other guy", partially because I was ticked at the lack of loyalty towards someone who had been a long time customer.

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#80182 - 10/24/08 05:36 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
bobliinds Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 221
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
If Peter chooses to extend some consideration to owners of older Outlaw gear like me (... perhaps I should have phrased that "older owners of Outlaw gear" smile ) I will obviously accept it with thanks. However, I've gotten superb performance and satisfaction (not to mention great customer support) from my 950 and that alone will keep me returning to Outlaw.

In the meantime, any news on that 997 release date? Huh? Huh?

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#80183 - 10/28/08 04:40 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Dan Marchewka Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 15
Loc: Broken Arrow, OK
Hey guys, just curious if the 997 will accept a 7.1 LPCM stream from my HTPC (ATI 4670)? I hope in the future all of the kinks will be worked out for computers to bitstream the HD codecs, but that might never happen either! I assume it will, but I figure I should ask, just to be safe.

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#80184 - 10/28/08 11:44 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
As I understand it, the 997 will accept multichannel LPCM (including 7.1) as well as bitstreams of the new formats via HDMI.
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#80185 - 10/28/08 05:58 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Dan Marchewka Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 15
Loc: Broken Arrow, OK
Thanks Gonk. I figured it would, but I thought I better ask. I am looking forward to the 997. I loved my 950; but bought the 970, which is good, but not great. I am hopeful the 997 will be great!

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#80186 - 10/29/08 02:08 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
T2Cruiser Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 1
Loc: Dollars, Taxes
Hi Gonk,

Will there still be a 990 style Bypass mode for those of us who have invested in high end CD transports and DAC processors?

I currently enjoy all the benefits of the 7.1 surround for HT as well as using the 990 in Bypass for Stereo listening. This is a great feature.
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Samsung LCD. TIVO3

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#80187 - 10/29/08 02:29 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Oaf Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 90
Loc: Vancouver,British Columbia, Ca...
Quote:
Originally posted by Hank:
Why would Outlaw leave us early customers (950) out of the discount deal?
The 950 owners have been heard and recognized!

• Original owners of our "First Generation" products, the Model 1050 receiver and the Model 950 processor, will receive a $100 discount** on the purchase of a Model 997. Even though these products are long out of production, we want to show our appreciation for those who have been a part of the Outlaw family from the beginning.

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#80188 - 10/29/08 02:31 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Oaf Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 90
Loc: Vancouver,British Columbia, Ca...
Quote:
Originally posted by Hank:
Why would Outlaw leave us early customers (950) out of the discount deal?
The 950 owners have been heard and recognized!

• Original owners of our "First Generation" products, the Model 1050 receiver and the Model 950 processor, will receive a $100 discount** on the purchase of a Model 997. Even though these products are long out of production, we want to show our appreciation for those who have been a part of the Outlaw family from the beginning.

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#80189 - 10/29/08 02:52 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
bobliinds Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 221
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
Thanks, Peter. smile

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#80190 - 10/29/08 04:22 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
psyprof1 Offline
Desperado

Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 443
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
OK, I might consider the 997 in spite of its omission of a phono preamp (and for the skeptics I ask only that they LISTEN ATTENTIVELY to good recordings in both CD and LP versions - try Sheffield - played back on equipment in the $500 range; I have nothing to say to the sneerers and vice versa) as long as it offers biamp capability, as I understand the Sherwood receiver does. Does it?

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#80191 - 10/29/08 05:29 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
RedSIinPA Offline
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Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 278
Loc: Outside Phila.
this $200 might be my incentive to throw down on the 997.
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#80192 - 11/01/08 07:40 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
skiman Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 79
Loc: Golden. Colorado
+1

Yes! The original prepro owners have not been forgotten. As good as the 990 is, I never felt the need to upgrade from my 950, but looks like the 997 will meet my needs.
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#80193 - 11/06/08 02:53 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
breeze Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 5
I LOVE my 990, but I bought it only because I ran out of patience waiting for it's replacement (I wanted HDMI's--and more of them). I have an old Technics turntable that I still use and I deeply appreciate the phono input that the 990 provides, since the processing power of the 990 with those 5 2200's and my Maggies makes my albums sound better than I ever remember 'back in the day'. I have to admit that I am going to struggle with the 997's lack of a phono input, and it just might be a dealbreaker for me.

But what I really want to address in this post is the attitude that 'I won't pay for what I don't use'. I find that argument trite, self-centered and shallow. All along my audio journey that began in my early teens back in the 70's, every piece of equipment that I have purchased has had features that I didn't or couldn't use (i.e. what do I need an AUX for?). I don't remember the thought ever crossing my mind that I 'paid for' this or that when I shouldn't have had to.
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#80194 - 11/06/08 03:29 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Part of the issue here is just how many different features are getting packed into a surround receiver today. We're not only talking about having more stereo analog inputs than one person might need (like that AUX input when the TAPE and PHONO took care of your input needs just fine), we're talking about so much more. Manufacturers have to decide where they put their money (and thus their product costs), and the list is really kind of staggering.

You "need" HDMI v1.3, so you need an audio DSP section that will process and when necessary decode a plethora of formats (PCM stereo, PCM multichannel, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, DTS, DTS-ES, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD High Resolution, DTS HD Master Audio, and maybe even SACD DSD). You also need matrix processing modes (DTS NEO:6, Dolby Pro Logic II/IIx, maybe some weird "DSP" modes like Jazz or Stadium, 5 Stereo, 7 Stereo). We also "need" room correction, so that DSP needs to be able to offer something similar to Audyssey or Trinnov - or at a minimum, something like Cirrus's in-house room EQ (sometimes called SNAP and sometimes re-branded by a specific manufacturer). We also need robust bass management, channel trim, distances adjustments, and an audio buffer for audio/video sync. That's just the audio DSP section. Now we need to allow for analog bypass of that audio DSP section, out of respect for the trusty turntable as well as other sources that are natively analog or are using a really good DAC. To feed in signals, you need to include several HDMI inputs, some coaxial and optical inputs, some stereo analog inputs, and a 7.1 analog input (although I can see a time in the not too distant future when the 7.1 analog starts to fade away).

We also have a video section. We need those same HDMI inputs already mentioned, but we also need some component video and some legacy composite and s-video inputs. Many of us would like to have the ability to keep things simple by having all of our disparate video sources lumped together into a single output, which means transcoding composite and s-video to component and converting those analog signals to digital for the HDMI output. (Of course, some folks want to bypass video switching in the processor, so they actually have no interest in this.) We also want on-screen setup menus to help us with this steadily more complex hub of audio and video data, so that's got to get worked in. We would also like to see a good video processor to help those standard definition video sources look less "low res" on our high definition TV's.

Since this monstrosity has become the center of everything, we may also want it to be able to control everything - which means a universal remote control, something that can be as simple or as complex as you decide to make it. We may also want to have it pipe audio and video to other rooms in the house, which means a second zone with its own controls. Of course, we may already have a really good universal remote and we may not want to fish wires all over the house, in which case both of those features cease to matter to us.

I guess my point is that you are exactly right that the notion of "I won't pay for what I don't use" is impractical - no product will ever offer exactly what someone needs and no more, because the permutations just listed are too numerous, complex, and variable. Instead it's a balancing act, and we and the manufacturers we shop with have to juggle feature lists as best as we can.
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#80195 - 11/06/08 04:03 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
breeze Offline
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Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 5
Wow! that was quick, gonk. You are exactly right--what we ask of a pre/pro in this day and age is nothing short of herculean. And people like the Outlaws have countless hard decisions to make in design and pre-production. And for my money they mostly make the right ones. But that doesn't mean I can't be disappointed when one of those decisions affects a feature that some people (like me) take for granted.

I have been around the "surround-sound" stuff for what seems like forever (I actually have an old SAE analog time delay from around 1980). The evolution of this expansion of stereo and it's integration with video and television and then computers is fascinating for me. And maybe the biggest struggle for me when considering the 997 isn't that I might have to buy an outboard pre/preamp, but that the absence of a phono input really marks the end of an era and the death of the 'Glory Days' for me and many of my generation that actually LIVED the Maxell magazine ad photo (you know the one).

I want to retract my use of the word "dealbreaker" since it was far too strong a word to describe what I was really thinking. That doesn't mean I'm not going to struggle.
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#80196 - 11/06/08 04:51 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
AvFan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/05
Posts: 619
Loc: El Cajon, California
While I understand the need for a variety of inputs that I may not use I question why there are so many of certain input types. For example, why does the 990 have five composite, S-video and their corresponding analog audio inputs? These inputs take up a lot of valuable real estate on the increasingly crowded back of receivers and pre/pros. It would be interesting to get an idea from the Saloon members on how many of these legacy inputs they really use. My guess is that a few folks use a lot of them but most use two or less. I use one set of analog audio inputs from my OPPO 980H.

Given the resurgence in vinyl I don't consider phono a legacy input. My HT is really my family room where I listen to a great deal of music and I've toyed with the idea of getting a turntable to play some of my old (and well worn!) records and the 990 affords me that option. Yes, there are options with a separate DAC but its too bad the 997 won't have a phono input. I hope phono wasn't eliminated in order to have a half dozen composite/S-video inputs on the 997.
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#80197 - 11/06/08 05:15 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
I doubt that phono was dropped as a space issue - I suspect it's more of a cost issue.
Quote:
For example, why does the 990 have five composite, S-video and their corresponding analog audio inputs? These inputs take up a lot of valuable real estate on the increasingly crowded back of receivers and pre/pros.
The Model 990 is based on a platform that is now more than four years old (maybe closer to five years, actually) - it was probably more appropriate to have that many of these inputs at the time the platform was designed. Looking at this page , I don't think we're going to see as many "entry level" analog inputs. I'm going to call it four analog AV inputs and two analog audio inputs. Those likely serve two purposes: legacy support (for the VCR's, LD players, game consoles, SMS-1's, and the like) and "defining" inputs. Historically, we've grafted coaxial, optical, component, and DVI/HDMI inputs on to the basic inputs that were initially identified with each of those legacy "entry level" connections. And before we get too upset about the "high" number of these inputs, let me toss out this thought: those four AV and two audio inputs are not enough by themselves to let us fully use the array of other inputs that surround them. Sure, the multichannel analog input is probably a separate entity, but that still leaves half a dozen coaxial and optical inputs (or one for each "entry level" input), three component inputs (almost one per "entry level" input), and four HDMI inputs. For that array of "upper tier" inputs to be reasonably useful in a large system, we are likely to need at least a couple inputs that are independent from any analog stereo connections. If they do something like that, it would be a first significant step down the road toward limiting those legacy inputs to a couple connections over in a corner. It is not something that has really started to catch on yet - I was looking at the rear panel diagram for an Onkyo 885 processor recently, and there are analog stereo for each input plus composite and s-video for each video input.

Another thing to think about in this equation: the second zone, which is typically an analog pre-amp with rudimentary video switching - for that to work, you need to either include some of the old connections or you need to figure out a way to have a parallel DSP section and extra DAC that can steer all those digital audio and video signals to the second zone.
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#80198 - 11/06/08 06:08 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
AvFan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/05
Posts: 619
Loc: El Cajon, California
I agree the 990's age is a good reason it has so many composite/S-video and corresponding stereo inputs but as you noted the Onkyo continues the tradition of including so many legacy inputs. A quick check of Anthem's AVM-40/50 shows it does the same. I guess these connections are pretty cheap in comparison to the phono components. No doubt we will need a certain number of these inputs/outputs if nothing else for convenience (e.g. composite out for an auxiliary screen for those that have projectors) but I think it is time to start paring them down. If nothing else fewer connections might allow designer/manufactures to spread the connections out and make it easier to plug and unplug cables! Tight connectors in tight spaces make for colorful language at times. The current method of handling extra zones seems to be the most cost effective way; no need for the extra DSP section.
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#80199 - 11/07/08 04:48 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
bobliinds Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 221
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
If you want to discuss useless ports, let's talk about balanced outputs. In a home audio system, these perform no purpose whatsoever; but manufacturers like Outlaw now are compelled to put them on because some marketing genius (at some competitive company a few years ago) decided it was a great selling point and forever thereafter the uninformed audio fanboys insist on having them. If you don't have balanced outputs, you must not have a very good product, huh? Yeah. Right.

Do I express myself too vehemently? Well, I feel vehemently about this ridiculous waste of money, resources, and backplate real estate.

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#80200 - 11/07/08 05:23 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
rance Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 99
Loc: Boston. MA
I vehemently agree! btw, will the 997 ONLY have balanced outputs?

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#80201 - 11/07/08 06:02 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Quote:
btw, will the 997 ONLY have balanced outputs?
Nope - it will have the standard RCA's as well.
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#80202 - 11/07/08 06:15 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
rance Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 99
Loc: Boston. MA
Thanks Gonk. I had assumed (or read) it had both, but all of a sudden I....lost my mind.

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#80203 - 11/07/08 06:37 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
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Loc: Memphis, TN USA
That's OK - it didn't get far before we caught it... wink
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#80204 - 11/07/08 08:02 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
psyprof1 Offline
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Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 443
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
As one of the early contributors to this discussion about that the 997 should have that it doesn't / has that it shouldn't, I will ask one question about phono inputs: Can well-reproduced CDs surpass, or even completely equal, well-reproduced LPs? I'm referring only to audio quality and realize cost is a decisive factor as always, so let's put in a cost ceiling of $1000 for turntable, arm, cartridge, and preamp on the LP side vs. player and DAC on the CD side. The fact that the platform the 997 is based on has abandoned phono reproduction implies to me that musical quality is no longer very high in manufacturers' priority lists, and that deeply saddens me.

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#80205 - 11/07/08 08:08 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
psyprof1 Offline
Desperado

Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 443
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
Typo correction: "this discussion about WHAT the 997 should have", not "THAT it should have".
Re the rest, I guess I should face the fact that HT, in the last analysis, isn't about music. Too bad, all around.

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#80206 - 11/07/08 08:11 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
psyprof1 Offline
Desperado

Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 443
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
Typo correction: "this discussion about WHAT the 997 should have", not "THAT it should have".
Re the rest, I guess I should face the fact that HT, in the last analysis, isn't about music. Too bad, all around.

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#80207 - 11/07/08 08:57 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
I think that's a question that can't be definitively answered. It can be answered, but any answer will be debated without resolution.

I still see more than one way to interpret the omission of a phono section. One is that they don't care about high performance two-channel audio quality. Another is that they recognize that the quality of phono section that could be included in a product of this type would not offer the sort of performance that a discerning ear and good vinyl setup would deserve, so they omitted it entirely rather than furnish something that was inherently limited.
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#80208 - 11/07/08 08:58 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
AvFan Offline
Desperado

Registered: 09/12/05
Posts: 619
Loc: El Cajon, California
Quote:
Originally posted by bobliinds:
If you want to discuss useless ports, let's talk about balanced outputs. In a home audio system, these perform no purpose whatsoever; but manufacturers like Outlaw now are compelled to put them on because some marketing genius decided it was a great selling point
I can think of two situations where balanced outputs would be a good idea: 1) when the amp and pre/pro are located in a noisy electrical environment and 2) when running self-powered speakers where the signal cable could encounter some electrical interference. As I understand it the balanced configuration defeats degradation of the signal in those cases. I imagine most folks don't have either of these situations and standard RCA/coax work just fine. However, I like the balanced outputs/cables just in case #1 above occurs and the XLR connectors on balanced cables are more robust.
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#80209 - 11/08/08 04:27 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
bobliinds Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 221
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
AvFan:

(My intention here isn't to get into a conflict, but just to play devil's advocate. smile )

You raise two good points. However, those situations tend to be unusual and can be addressed in other ways. If pre/pro vendors think that phono preamp usage is rare enough that they can acceptably omit a phono input on their hardware (and, even though I'm a vinyl guy, I think this is a reasonable omission), then the two situations you describe should also fall into the "so rarely encountered we can ignore them" category.

Nonetheless, for purely marketing reasons (which the CE industry/fanbase has tacitly forced vendors into) we all have to pay extra for those seldom needed connectors.

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#80210 - 11/08/08 06:48 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
AvFan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/05
Posts: 619
Loc: El Cajon, California
I certainly agree the two examples I used are rare (even though I wanted some self powered M&Ks at one time) and your analogy is good. No conflict at all. The benefits of balanced vs unbalanced debate has consumed a lot of energy and I don't want to heat up that discussion. I can see the marketing angle for a particularly feature but I wonder what came first; the consumers buying products with balanced outputs and the manufacturers responding or the manufacturers pushing them?
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#80211 - 11/09/08 06:10 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
bobliinds Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 221
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
Quote:
I wonder what came first; the consumers buying products with balanced outputs and the manufacturers responding or the manufacturers pushing them?
An executive in the industry once indicated to me that manufacturers/marketing came first.

In its way, it was a clever strategy for distinguishing a product in a crowded marketplace, but we're now all paying for it. Pointlessly, IMO; gratefully, in the opinions of others.

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#80212 - 11/09/08 09:27 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
NRBQLou Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 122
Loc: Denver, CO USA
Quote:
Originally posted by gonk:
I think that's a question that can't be definitively answered. It can be answered, but any answer will be debated without resolution.

I still see more than one way to interpret the omission of a phono section. One is that they don't care about high performance two-channel audio quality. Another is that they recognize that the quality of phono section that could be included in a product of this type would not offer the sort of performance that a discerning ear and good vinyl setup would deserve, so they omitted it entirely rather than furnish something that was inherently limited.
Hey, glad to see this discussion back on a civil, interesting track. Gonk, I need to play devil's advocate here so please indulge me. If the omission of the phono section was a quality decision, what on earth are composite video inputs doing on the back of this thing? Is there a lower-quality way to watch video? Anyone out there using these for anything other than maybe a mini-monitor for 990 menu viewing? Would have gladly had the cost of those yellow relics funneled into a decent phono stage, but I guess we could go around and around on this (kind of like a nice slab of vinyl...;-) forever...
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#80213 - 11/09/08 09:42 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Composite video is a different issue than phono preamp. The phono preamp is a question of audio quality, while the composite video input is a question of compatibility and legacy support. There is no way you could connect a VCR or other video source (like my SMS-1) through a processor without a composite input - there's no outboard "transcoding box" that will make it component video. If you remove it entirely then you are telling your customers "I don't care if you want to hang on to that VCR, old game console, camcorder, Video iPod, or the SMS-1 that we sold you - you can't use it with our processor." That's a touch rude... wink

Here's a loosely related question: "why do Blu-ray players typically have composite outputs?" (After all, who on Earth is going to buy a Blu-ray player and hook it up to any display that only has a composite video input!?!?) The answer I've gotten is that leaving a composite output helps in troubleshooting customer setups by eliminating resolution compatibility and other issues.
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#80214 - 11/09/08 09:50 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
PodBoy Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 281
Quote:
Originally posted by gonk:
...Here's a loosely related question: "why do Blu-ray players typically have composite outputs?" (After all, who on Earth is going to buy a Blu-ray player and hook it up to any display that only has a composite video input!?!?) The answer I've gotten is that leaving a composite output helps in troubleshooting customer setups by eliminating resolution compatibility and other issues.
Gonk: Aside from what you correctly suggest, some people may use the composite output to feed a multiroom system. So far, those are mostly analog only.

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#80215 - 11/10/08 02:25 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
blaineh Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 84
OK, I'll jump in...Regarding the xlr outputs: the back of my rack is a maze of wires (isn't your?), where ac power cords from the many components cross path, this is never good. I try to avoid it, but I can't always. My amps are in a nook behind the tv, and again, inputs are too close to ac lines, and plasma noise. Balanced lines are a huge plus! Even on a .5 meter run to my xover, the sound was better "fuller" with "fatter midrange" when I switched to xlr! Regarding the phono input, I have plans to set up a nice turntable. BUT, there are many grades of phono preamps, and I want something either class A or tubes or both. Some want a lower cost unit, just for old Christmas albums or george carlin, or whatever...The point is, now you can take your pick, phono pres at the low end could be had for a "song", and for guys like me and my maggies, I won't be sick of spending for the included pre. It would make me wonder what they left out in favor of it! Also, keep in mind that the phono is a very low level device, as such it could pickup much internal noise from the 997, till it's boosted to higher unbalanced levels. It's best to do this in a seperate box, close to the actual turntable, no?

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#80216 - 11/10/08 10:18 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
BloggingITGuy Offline
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Registered: 02/20/06
Posts: 446
Loc: Beaverton, Oregon
Yeah, it would seem to me to be kind of foolish to sell your flagship pre-pro without balanced outs when your flagship amps have balanced ins.

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#80217 - 11/11/08 02:56 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
JSinnott Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 11/08/08
Posts: 1
Loc: Gainesville, FL
I've got a question: will the 997's tuner be able to pick up HD radio?

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#80218 - 11/11/08 03:50 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Don't know - I haven't seen any mention of HD radio for the 997 or its Sherwood sibling the R-972, but I haven't been seeking it out either so I could have overlooked it.
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#80219 - 11/11/08 02:20 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
rubbersoul Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 383
Loc: folsom, pa.
November....It seems like January is a long way off.
I was hoping to hear by now an affirmative launch date for the 997 as well as some reviews from the likes of Home Theater magazine and Sound and Vision.
At least the reviews by now.
How does Outlaw think the 997 will fair without any independent reviews before the sale date?
I read that Outlaw intends or hopes to release the 997 by the holidays but more likely after the holidays...January. Undoubtedly it seems that the idea of launching the sale date of the 997 without any reviews would be a hugh mistake.
The OUTLAWS do not make those kind of errors. I do not think that the 997 will be released prior to January and not until after January.

I am off today with one of my friends to look and listen to the Integra 9.9. He is ready to buy.
I am considering holding him hostage until Outlaw releases the goods. mad mad mad
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#80220 - 11/11/08 02:33 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Why would you see reviews before a release date? The reviews from sources like Home Theater or Sound and Vision will follow months after we have seen it ship to consumers. They have to have hardware before it can be reviewed. That's the way it always is - and has to be, unless you want them to design it, build it, stock it, and sit on it until a professional reviewer can use it, write a review on it, put it in the queue for publication, and it finally appear (which would take up to six or even nine months for a print review, and probably at least four months for an online review - if the reviewer made it their top priority, which they have no reason to).

My Model 950 and Model 990 reviews came pretty quickly after they launched (albeit not as quickly as my OPPO beta test reviews for obvious reasons), and I'm seriously considering a Model 997 purchase such that you might see a similar review from me shortly after launch. In fact, mine might even include a curious surprise (I'm not telling yet, and it's unrelated to anything Outlaw, but it's an idea that I think folks might like). The initial feedback is going to come from consumers - people who like the feature set, like the price point, and are willing to use the 30-day trial period to give it a try. Those consumers and forums like this one are the first source of useful feedback.

I think a January release is the earliest we might see something, but that's just me guessing - and I really suspect that it's likely late January or February. I could certainly be wrong, but Sherwood hasn't even got their R-972 in production yet and I have to think the Model 997 will need to follow behind it at least some.
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#80221 - 11/11/08 02:37 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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Also, January sounds like it's a long way away, but I'm staring at a project that's in our office right now and due to go out in early January - and when I look at it, I feel like January is breathing down my neck! smile
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#80222 - 11/11/08 04:31 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
mzpro5 Offline
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Registered: 12/05/05
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Quote:
Originally posted by gonk:
Also, January sounds like it's a long way away, but I'm staring at a project that's in our office right now and due to go out in early January - and when I look at it, I feel like January is breathing down my neck! smile
Same here, January is just around the corner. New budget to prepare for, audit at the end of December, New Board coming in in February. Help I need more time!!!! eek
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#80223 - 11/11/08 05:35 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Retep Offline
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It would certainly be great to have it out for the holidays as it would make a nice gift. On the other hand, I want a fully functioning product rather than a half-baked product.

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#80224 - 11/12/08 12:29 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
psyprof1 Offline
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Registered: 09/10/05
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Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
This has been a very interesting discussion and I accept (with some regret) Gonk's point that the omission of a phono preamp by the makers of the Sherwood-Outlaw platform may have been realistic recognition of the limits of available quality at this price point. But my October 29 message ended with a question: Will the 997 have biamp output capability, as I understand the forthcoming Sherwood receiver does? No one has addressed this. Since it would require an on-board line-level crossover with adjustable high- and low-pass filters and level settings, I imagine the answer is no. You could put in a pretty good phono preamp circuit for the same cost and it would probably appeal to more users.
But still it would be nice if someone told us. Hello?

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#80225 - 11/12/08 02:25 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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There are a lot of interesting questions that I would enjoy seeing answers to - the question of biamp output capability included, although as you say I suspect that the answer is "no" (even if you could include the controls needed to implement active biamping, the potential for people to mis-use it is worrisome). Alas, Outlaw is likely keeping quiet until they can offer more complete answers. That leaves us with the fun of theorizing in a vacuum, which I happen to have been practicing quite a bit for a couple months now ... smile
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#80226 - 11/12/08 05:17 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
unpossible Offline
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Loc: Minneapolis
On the balanced-outputs points, I would think it would cost a lot less to throw those in than to include a quality phono preamp. And I use one single balanced output today - for my subwoofer (AvFan's #2 case of a "powered speaker").

I would think a lot of folks use a balanced connection for the subwoofer (or should) - in my case I have a rather long noisy run (I guess that is both cases #1 and #2)...and so there is a HUGE reduction in noise for me in that case, enough for that alone to a purchasing factor for me, even if I am "paying" for the others but not using them : ).

Add in more circumstances like blaineh's noisy environment and add in some now ~legitimate marketing hype of bobliinds original point and I would think the business case and the rear-panel-real-estate case to include balanced outputs is very clear. ("now legitimate" because they are trying to sell product after all, and there are some battles you just don't fight)

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#80227 - 11/12/08 08:40 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
psyprof1 Offline
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Re rear-panel-real-estate, a TPA of the same size as a receiver should have plenty of room for balanced outputs in place of speaker outputs.

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#80228 - 11/12/08 09:40 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
NRBQLou Offline
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Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 122
Loc: Denver, CO USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gonk:
[QB] Composite video is a different issue than phono preamp. The phono preamp is a question of audio quality, while the composite video input is a question of compatibility and legacy support. There is no way you could connect a VCR or other video source (like my SMS-1) through a processor without a composite input - there's no outboard "transcoding box" that will make it component video. If you remove it entirely then you are telling your customers "I don't care if you want to hang on to that VCR, old game console, camcorder, Video iPod, or the SMS-1 that we sold you - you can't use it with our processor." That's a touch rude... wink

Thanks Gonk, you are truly the voice of reason, but I can't resist prodding your logic just a bit, if for no other reason than I suspect you might actually enjoy the give and take. Isn't the absence of a phono input also saying "I don't care if you want to hang on to that turntable - you can't use it with our processor."? After all, one can easily go online and buy a composite to s-video (and vice-versa) converter cable for a heck of a lot cheaper than a decent phono stage, and that would solve that issue for VCR die-hards. Why the inconsistency?
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#80229 - 11/12/08 11:02 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
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Quote:
Isn't the absence of a phono input also saying "I don't care if you want to hang on to that turntable - you can't use it with our processor."? After all, one can easily go online and buy a composite to s-video (and vice-versa) converter cable for a heck of a lot cheaper than a decent phono stage, and that would solve that issue for VCR die-hards. Why the inconsistency?
I'll go along with this one. smile For one thing, I would think that we'd get rid of s-video before composite - simply because the number of devices with s-video that don't also have component video are pretty small. My S-VHS VCR from 1995 and my SMS-1 are the only two I have that fall in this category, and the SMS-1 would work equally well via composite as via s-video. There's also LaserDisc, of course, and some older game consoles (Dreamcast, for example). There's even a precedent - the pictures from CEDIA showed that OPPO's Blu-ray player will retain composite video but omit s-video. As a result, I figured that we'd see the s-video connections follow the composite video connections into oblivion (if they didn't get eliminated first), making the converters you mentioned not terribly useful.

Just to play with the "devil's advocate" perspective a bit more, here's another scenario. We still have analog audio inputs, since both the turntable and the VCR need it. We have to decide whether to drop a phono preamp or composite video inputs, but s-video inputs will stay no matter what (looking out for those LaserDisc players). If we include a phono preamp, it will not be as good a quality as a separate phono preamp, so the owner may still elect to put a standalone phono preamp in the system. The VCR is not S-VHS, so composite is the best we have. The surround processor can pipe composite video and s-video straight into the video processor, where it gets deinterlaced, converted to digital for HDMI output, and possibly scaled to an HD resolution. If we keep the composite input, it's a straight shot into the video processor (and thus the "best" picture quality possible). If we drop the composite input, we need to find an adapter that converts to s-video. Can we assume that a composite to s-video adapter provides transcoding without image degradation? Probably not, as this process is not simply changing plugs - s-video splits the picture out into two signals, and if that split is not handled right you may get visible artifacts. If we eliminate the phono preamp, the alternative will most likely be of better audio quality. If we eliminate the composite input, the alternative will most likely be of worse quality and could certainly not do more than equal the quality. One could argue that those video artifacts are not enough justification to retain the inputs, because nobody in their right mind should even be using composite in this day and age, but that gets back to the idea of whether a manufacturer is being rude to their customer base or not. (How's that for coming full circle! smile )
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#80230 - 11/13/08 12:34 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
NRBQLou Offline
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Registered: 02/22/03
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Loc: Denver, CO USA
Quote:
Originally posted by gonk:
(How's that for coming full circle! smile )
Oh Gonk, you have outdone me sir, just sign me up for a 997 and and the new "Outlaw Outboard Phono Stage" - I give up! wink If there is anyone out there seriously looking to "up-res" their non-SVHS VCR to "hi-def" resolution (they must own some pretty pristine vhs cassettes, I would imagine) then I say, set aside a corner of the 997 rear, label it "weirder than turntable owners section" and let them have at it!
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#80231 - 11/13/08 02:16 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
rubbersoul Offline
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Gonk as always I respect your opinion.I just thought that at least a proto-type would be out first.
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#80232 - 11/13/08 03:40 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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Sure, there will be a prototype and there will be beta samples, but none of those should go out to reviewers - they aren't representative of the final product. The differences may amount to minor details, but they could also be huge (particularly as far as software goes). Professional reviews will always lag product launches by multiple months.
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#80233 - 11/13/08 05:16 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
BloggingITGuy Offline
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Except for perhaps speakers...I think Outlaw had a review of either the LCRs or the bookshelves from one of the online mags at launch.

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#80234 - 11/13/08 05:37 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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That's a good point - I think it was the LCR's, and it was pretty unusual. Another exception to the rule is Kris Deering's review of the 983H, but that was a review of beta hardware and beta firmware.
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#80235 - 11/13/08 01:46 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
bestbang4thebuck Offline
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If the physical size of a pre/pro or receiver will allow, as in the 990 that has internal real estate to spare, a manufacturer could leave a bay or two for special modules to be added to the otherwise completed system. That way, when someone wants a less-than-very-common input or other feature, the buyer can purchase an optional module to slide into the waiting bay. Other buyers are not saddled with the cost for all units to carry the feature. Of course, something that may have cost all buyers $50 or $100 will likely cost the occasional buyer four times as much.

So, we’re back to outboard add-ons where the buyer has a wider choice and, depending on the manufacturer, the benefit of a larger market for the special item and likely a lower cost than a special module suited only for a particular brand.

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#80236 - 11/13/08 04:14 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Retep Offline
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Registered: 01/19/06
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This might be a very unusual request, but if I had one feature I haven't seen on any pre/pro, that would be a TV tuner for OTA/Cable/Satellite. I know you can use a box, but I don't have any boxes. You can also use a TV, that's fine for those without it, but our projector doesn't have a tuner.

If you're already connecting all sources to the pre/pro then this would be one more connection without the need for yet another box and remote or going to the TV then back to the pre/pro. Especially with REON scalers built in. Granted if you're using a PVR, but I have a splitter anyway and the PVR records separately from what I'm watching.

Right now I had to buy the PHD-205 as a tuner to use with the projector. That's $160 bones and it's not very good.

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#80237 - 11/13/08 08:09 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
BloggingITGuy Offline
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Registered: 02/20/06
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Loc: Beaverton, Oregon
Yeah, as an owner of the completely modular Integra Research RDC-7.1, I can tell you that modular sounds good on paper, but in reality nets you nothing but additional cost.

Since Outlaw does not control the chassis, it would stand to reason that they would have to pay significant costs to the OEM to get it modified in such a way to allow modules. And of course once the OEM moved away from the chassis in favor of another, Outlaw would most likely not be able to get further modules built without adding significant cost.

There's just no cost benefit of going modular to either the consumer or the retailer, although the OEM would be only too happy to put it in place for you.

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#80238 - 11/14/08 10:18 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
skiman Offline
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Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 79
Loc: Golden. Colorado
Quote:
Originally posted by NRBQLou:
If there is anyone out there seriously looking to "up-res" their non-SVHS VCR to "hi-def" resolution (they must own some pretty pristine vhs cassettes, I would imagine) then I say, set aside a corner of the 997 rear, label it "weirder than turntable owners section" and let them have at it! [/QB]
I have some home movies on VHS that I would still like to watch, so I guess I'm a "weirder than turntable owner" except that I also have a turntable. My turntable will be connected to a separate stereo analog preamp (with HT bypass)via an outboard phono preamp.
So the 997 appears to meet my needs to upgrade from my 950 as it will have HDMI.
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#80239 - 11/18/08 08:18 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
kscharf Offline
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Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 115
Loc: South Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by gonk:
I'll go along with this one. smile For one thing, I would think that we'd get rid of s-video before composite - simply because the number of devices with s-video that don't also have component video are pretty small. My S-VHS VCR from 1995 and my SMS-1 are the only two I have that fall in this category, and the SMS-1 would work equally well via composite as via s-video. There's also LaserDisc, of course, and some older game consoles (Dreamcast, for example). There's even a precedent - the pictures from CEDIA showed that OPPO's Blu-ray player will retain composite video but omit s-video. As a result, I figured that we'd see the s-video connections follow the composite video connections into oblivion (if they didn't get eliminated first), making the converters you mentioned not terribly useful.

While it might be a cable or my dvd-r machine, I did notice that trying to use the component out of my DVD recorder (Toshiba) gave a yucky greenish cast to the picture (didn't matter if it went through my receiver or direct to the TV), while the svideo output was perfect. The component out of my cable box is also perfect through the same cables and inputs. Good thing I had the Svideo connections.

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#80240 - 11/18/08 08:19 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
kscharf Offline
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Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 115
Loc: South Florida
If the 997 has a USB input, maybe a USB turntable might work?

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#80241 - 11/18/08 08:30 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Quote:
While it might be a cable or my dvd-r machine, I did notice that trying to use the component out of my DVD recorder (Toshiba) gave a yucky greenish cast to the picture (didn't matter if it went through my receiver or direct to the TV), while the svideo output was perfect. The component out of my cable box is also perfect through the same cables and inputs. Good thing I had the Svideo connections.
That condition could easily be caused by a loose or bad cable (or a bad port on the player) when using component video.
Quote:
If the 997 has a USB input, maybe a USB turntable might work?
Two problems there.

First, if it's like the USB connection on the 990, it needs to connect to a PC so that the receiver can mimic an external sound card - which wouldn't work well with other USB devices. And if it is like the USB connection on some disc players, it would only work with mass storage devices (hard drives, USB sticks, etc.) and not peripherals like a USB turntable. So the odds are that a USB turntable wouldn't work with the USB connection on any surround receiver or processor.

Second, a USB turntable would not be a satisfactory answer for the audience that wants a phono preamp. That audience wants a purely analog signal path from vinyl to speaker, because the source device is analog. A USB turntable has a built-in phono preamp (which solves the problem of no preamp in the processor) followed by an ADC that converts the signal into digital - thus insuring that the folks who wanted a phono preamp in the first place wouldn't touch that turntable with a 10' pole...
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#80242 - 11/20/08 03:36 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
x84HurstOlds Offline
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Registered: 01/19/04
Posts: 11
Loc: Runnemede, NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by breeze:


I have been around the "surround-sound" stuff for what seems like forever (I actually have an old SAE analog time delay from around 1980).
Heh...I am actually using my Dad's old SAE 2200 to power my front L/R! It plays very nicely with the 950, although when it is paired with its original mate, an SAE Mark IX-B IIRC, it's like a sonic time warp - I feel like I shouldn't play anything newer than about '75 on that system laugh

WRT to the phono pre discussion...my dad also left me about 3000 vinyl albums when he died. ATM, I don't play them, but I am planning to invest in a decent rig soon. And when I do...

Given the "boutique" nature of vinyl today, and the tidy sums one can easily drop on a nice TT, I think the majority of TT folks are fussy enough to want to pick their own outboard phono pre. Having one in the pre/pro is a convenience for sure, and certainly I would expect Outlaw to make it a nice one (though I've no knowledge of the ones they've put in other products); but all the same, it's not a deal-breaker to me.

Quite the opposite actually; if they included a high-quality one, it might raise the price a couple c-notes, and I wouldn't want that; and if it didn't raise the price much, then I'd worry that it wasn't good enough, and end up replacing it anyway :rolleyes:
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#80243 - 11/20/08 05:38 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by x84HurstOlds:
Quite the opposite actually; if they included a high-quality one, it might raise the price a couple c-notes, and I wouldn't want that; and if it didn't raise the price much, then I'd worry that it wasn't good enough, and end up replacing it anyway :rolleyes:
smile - such is the potential dilemma...
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#80244 - 11/21/08 05:18 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
psyprof1 Offline
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Awright enuff awreddy - I yield on the phono preamp question, though I still wish Outlaw would market a standalone version of the 1250's preamp for those of us who still want pure audio quality (and doubters are welcome to try the listening comparison I've already suggested). But my question about 997 biamp capability still hasn't been answered. Is that also too much of a quality question?

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#80245 - 11/21/08 01:16 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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If it makes you feel better, we haven't gotten any details beyond what was in the original announcement - so it's not just you...

As for the biamp feature, I wonder how much benefit it will have for the 997 - it's just a pre-amp, so the biamp trick is just internalizing a splitter cable. It would be convenient, so they may leave it rather than remote it, but it doesn't seen as compelling an option on a processor as on a receiver.

I also concur that an Outlaw phono preamp could be a nice little product...
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#80246 - 11/21/08 09:52 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
blaineh Offline
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Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 84
Gonk
I'm not so sure the "bi-amp" reassign would just be splitting the signal. I'm thinking with all the horsepower that's at our disposal (hoping, really) that it would be a actual active xover, with a variable freq separate from the bass management freq.

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#80247 - 11/21/08 10:33 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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If they implemented it that way, the user setup for it would have to be very complicated to offer any value - speaker crossover design is not simple. I know that I don't have detailed specs on where my speakers' crossovers are set or at what slopes they work. Even if I did have that information and the software allowed such a detailed level of control over the crossovers, putting two crossovers in series is undesirable - meaning that you'd need to go in and remove the crossover network from your speakers for this feature to work (or at least part of it, if you have a 2 1/2-way or 3-way speaker design). How many of us are actually equipped to use such a feature? Conversely, how many of us are equipped to make a complete mess of things using such a feature? (I'm holding my hand up for the latter question, even though you can't see me...)
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#80248 - 11/22/08 03:44 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Durask Offline
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Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 30
Quote:
Originally posted by AvFan:
I can think of two situations where balanced outputs would be a good idea: 1) when the amp and pre/pro are located in a noisy electrical environment
I doubt many people will put their 997 in a factory where people will be doing arc welding around it. smile

Quote:

2) when running self-powered speakers where the signal cable could encounter some electrical interference.
True, but how many people use self-powered speakers?

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#80249 - 11/22/08 03:50 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Durask Offline
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Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 30
In general, legacy inputs tend to linger forever. These days on PC motherboards we still have serial ports, parallel ports and floppy connectors. In fact when I upgraded my PC a couple of months ago this is the first time that I bought a motherboard which did not have parallel or serial ports - but it STILL has a floppy drive connector.

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#80250 - 11/22/08 04:29 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
nfaguys Offline
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Registered: 04/09/05
Posts: 500
Loc: Maine
Hopefully manufacturers will not delete legacy connections, as they are very convenient for a multitude of equipment, zones, secondary devices etc.

If they do it would be nice to have inexpensive conversion devices for those of us with legacy (i.e. "ancient" ? laugh ) equipment out there.
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#80251 - 11/22/08 05:42 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
tres0r Offline
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Registered: 02/20/07
Posts: 22
Durask,

A lot of electrostats and some active speakers have subs that need power.

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#80252 - 11/22/08 05:58 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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Nfaguys, I really do not think that we will see those legacy inputs vanish - it makes sense to reduce the number of them, but not to eliminate them outright...
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#80253 - 11/22/08 08:11 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
nfaguys Offline
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Loc: Maine
gonk wrote:

I really do not think that we will see those legacy inputs vanish - it makes sense to reduce the number of them, but not to eliminate them outright...

Gonk is probably right. But the way the 990 is set up with the ability to assign digital and still have composite/analog affords great flexiblity. It's nice to have this for all inputs.

OTOH if mfrs were to eliminate many there is still a work-around by "outboarding" with a legacy-type switcher such as this one:

..which I do use for some things. So as long as we have something to I/O to and from we'll (I'll) be ok. Also patchbays, but as discussed in previous posts not for everybody. And...gotta have an understanding wife. laugh
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Players: Tascam CD01U/SonyCX455 x 3/DV955/BDP83
Old Sony 60" SXRD TV
Zone 2 (also liv-Room: listening to music while Mrs watches TV): Crown SL2 preamp/D40 Amp/Stax Headphones



My "Man-cave":
4 channel-only inline room. No TV (thank heaven)!!!
990/755/4-KEF 107s
Tascam CD01U/dts decoder/digital director
Alesis 16x4x2 mixer
Recorders Alesis HD24/ML9600/Crown CX844s/SonyDAT/Tascam DA38
Ham Radio Shack (KB1STH) ICOM/Yaesu/Drakes x 3

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#80254 - 11/22/08 08:42 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
nfaguys Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/09/05
Posts: 500
Loc: Maine
I just saw one of these SB-v3000's on ebay. Way too much $$ for it, though there aren't many out there for sale. So I guess they command a premium.
Still, there are other.

Also most don't need matrix switching. Seems to me monoprice had something useable.
_________________________
Living Room:
5.1 Surround and 4channel inline room
990/7700/6-KEF-107s/LFM1 x 2/ SMS Awaiting Trinnov
Millenium dts decoder;Digital Director
Players: Tascam CD01U/SonyCX455 x 3/DV955/BDP83
Old Sony 60" SXRD TV
Zone 2 (also liv-Room: listening to music while Mrs watches TV): Crown SL2 preamp/D40 Amp/Stax Headphones



My "Man-cave":
4 channel-only inline room. No TV (thank heaven)!!!
990/755/4-KEF 107s
Tascam CD01U/dts decoder/digital director
Alesis 16x4x2 mixer
Recorders Alesis HD24/ML9600/Crown CX844s/SonyDAT/Tascam DA38
Ham Radio Shack (KB1STH) ICOM/Yaesu/Drakes x 3

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#80255 - 12/17/08 04:07 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
xcortes Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 14
With the current trend towards music servers an high resolution digital the 997 can't miss the train by not accepting 192k/24 bit data through the USB input (two channel). HDCD decoding would be a plus.

My view is that together with the resurgence of analog the future of channel audio is this:
Reference Recordings HRx

And it would be fantastic if the 997 gave us the chance to get there.

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#80256 - 12/25/08 11:03 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Skyblazer Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 255
Loc: Spokane, WA
will the new 997 be able to decode DTS MA? I hope so. I have fallen in love with movies again that have the DTS MA soundtrack.
_________________________
Outlaw Audio 990 pre amp
Adire Audio sub (SVS 12.2 driver)
CAL Alpha tube DAC
Parasound P/HP-850 2 CH pre
Pioneer PL-530 TT
Polk Audio SDA 2B
NAD 2600A amp
Danger Boy here

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#80257 - 12/26/08 03:19 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Yes, we expect it to decode DTS-HD MA and TrueHD.
_________________________
gonk
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#80258 - 12/26/08 03:43 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
E'pin Sen Ob Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 226
Loc: USA
Be kind of pointless if it didn't decode the new audio formats. I can't imagine it not doing them.
_________________________
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MY HOME THEATER PICTURES http://community.webshots.com/user/bonesnipe

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#80259 - 12/26/08 07:18 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
dvenardos Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 97
Loc: Thousand Oaks, Ca
Quote:
Originally posted by psyprof1:
Awright enuff awreddy - I yield on the phono preamp question, though I still wish Outlaw would market a standalone version of the 2150's preamp for those of us who still want pure audio quality (and doubters are welcome to try the listening comparison I've already suggested).
Add HT bypass and this would be the perfect complement to the 997. I would be in heaven. smile

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#80260 - 01/03/09 05:08 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
barumba Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 19
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I have used this NAD preamp (link below) for many years. It has been quite reliable. The price is reasonable, given the performance.
http://spearitsound.amazonwebstore.com/N..._source=froogle

Cheers.

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#80261 - 01/08/09 10:04 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
joelea Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 05/01/07
Posts: 4
Loc: Porter Ranch, CA
I planning to buy a new AV Preamp/Processor very soon. I have been waiting for the new Outlaw 997. In the meanwhile I am looking at the new Marantz AV8003 Networking unit. I have been comparing features to the 997 (also using the Sherwood AV R-972). I like the AV8003 network capabilities.
Right now I can buy Marantz @25% discount. It has a lot of features and is available Now!
Since I am a novice and want to maximize features, which would be best to buy? How does the 997 compare to the 8003 for quality, etc?
I would appreciate your input.

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#80262 - 01/08/09 10:59 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
joelea Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 05/01/07
Posts: 4
Loc: Porter Ranch, CA
Sorry, posted in wrong area.
Moved to new topic "Model 997 or Marantz AV8003".

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#80263 - 02/16/09 07:58 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Hank Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/30/01
Posts: 348
Loc: Austin, Texas, USA
Quote:
The 950 owners have been heard and recognized!

• Original owners of our "First Generation" products, the Model 1050 receiver and the Model 950 processor, will receive a $100 discount** on the purchase of a Model 997. Even though these products are long out of production, we want to show our appreciation for those who have been a part of the Outlaw family from the beginning.
THANK YOU, OUTLAW!
_________________________
"Do you expect me to talk?"
"No Mr. Bond, I expect you to die!"

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#80264 - 02/28/09 05:14 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Skyblazer Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 255
Loc: Spokane, WA
any new info on when the 997 will hit the streets?
_________________________
Outlaw Audio 990 pre amp
Adire Audio sub (SVS 12.2 driver)
CAL Alpha tube DAC
Parasound P/HP-850 2 CH pre
Pioneer PL-530 TT
Polk Audio SDA 2B
NAD 2600A amp
Danger Boy here

Top
#80265 - 02/28/09 05:21 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Peter Tribeman posted in this thread that they are still waiting on the release of the Sherwood R-972, which will precede the 997 by at least 60 days (duration dependent on how smoothly the R-972 launch goes).
_________________________
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#80266 - 03/01/09 01:40 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
analogmusic Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 10/13/04
Posts: 7
Loc: Helen, GA
Hi Outlaws. Work and Travel have kept me away from the Saloon for 3-4 years. Due to economy, no job or travel for now. Time to upgrade the HT. The 950 is still doing a great job. It will move to the bedroom. The 997 looks like it should be the replacement. I'm on the list. Hope it does something like analog bypass. No phono input is no problem. I would use my tube phono preamp anyway. I see the 970 has analog bypass. The 990 lists a pure analog mode. Not sure what that means. Guess I'll have to read the posts and reviews to get up to speed. Glad to see Gonk is still here and active. Equipment will be posted as soon as I figger out how.
_________________________
analogmusic
Outlaw 950, M200's, LFE-1; Tannoy Westminster (2), GRF Memory (2), System 12 DMT II; Hitachi Ultravision RPTV; Xbox 360 w/ HD-DVD; Pioneer DV-6600A; Bix TT w/ Blue Note Tonearm; Dual 1246 TT; Seduction Tube Phono mm Stage

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#80267 - 03/01/09 03:51 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Quote:
The 997 looks like it should be the replacement. I'm on the list. Hope it does something like analog bypass.
I would expect the 997 to retain the 990's analog bypass.
Quote:
I see the 970 has analog bypass. The 990 lists a pure analog mode. Not sure what that means.
Pure analog and analog bypass are the same with different names.
_________________________
gonk
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#80268 - 03/07/09 04:42 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
surroundophile Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 68
Loc: Chicago, Il. USA
Quote:
Originally posted by XenonMan:
WAAAAAHHHHH!!!! Buy a phono pre amp for crying out loud. If you want that technology because it sounds so much better, then break out the old wallet and go buy the equipment needed to use it. Perhaps we should install quadrophonic inputs for the .0001% of the users who may have ever heard of it.
The 7.1 analog input can be used for quad input, as I do with my 950. And there are more than .0001% of us quadrophiles (surroundophiles) out here. Don't believe me?...check out www.quadraphonicquad.com!

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#80269 - 03/07/09 04:44 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
surroundophile Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 68
Loc: Chicago, Il. USA
Quote:
Originally posted by XenonMan:
WAAAAAHHHHH!!!! Buy a phono pre amp for crying out loud. If you want that technology because it sounds so much better, then break out the old wallet and go buy the equipment needed to use it. Perhaps we should install quadrophonic inputs for the .0001% of the users who may have ever heard of it.
The 7.1 analog input can be used for quad input, as I do with my 950. And there are more than .0001% of us quadrophiles (surroundophiles) out here. Don't believe me?...check out www.quadraphonicquad.com!
As far as the phono input, Outlaw could provide an optional internal board, ordered by the purchaser, and installed by them.

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#80270 - 03/07/09 05:23 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
An optional internal board installed on request (and by hand in Boston) would likely cost as much as simply offering a standalone phono pre-amp, especially in a product that isn't using a card-based architecture. I seem to recall a few people suggesting that Outlaw look at tucking the RR2150's phono section into a chassis of its own for just this purpose - don't know if it will come to pass (might be a small demand, narrow margin sort of product), but it'd probably be a more efficient solution - plus it would find a wider market (since it could be paired with the 970, with any other future products that lack a phono input, or even with somebody else's product).
_________________________
gonk
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#80271 - 03/24/09 06:07 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
dcleary Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 09/29/08
Posts: 16
Loc: Robbinsville, NJ
It is a shame that the only feedback we have about the platform has been from a faulty demo at an electronics show. I am hoping the unit is out and has had some reviews by the time I decide to buy. I would love it if Sherwood and/or Outlaw could get one of these into the hands of a reputable reviewer before they launch.

Top
#80272 - 03/24/09 06:23 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Quote:
It is a shame that the only feedback we have about the platform has been from a faulty demo at an electronics show.
Until the product is done, I wouldn't expect to see feedback. After all, the only folks using it enough to offer real feedback are the company staff and maybe some external testers (although the latter are going to only enter into the mix near the tail end) - all of them are going to be working under NDA and not allowed to talk. Not to mention that firmware is such a big part of today's consumer electronics, and getting the firmware right can make a significant difference on performance. Commenting on performance with incomplete firmware is tricky business, even when you are able to do so.
Quote:
I am hoping the unit is out and has had some reviews by the time I decide to buy. I would love it if Sherwood and/or Outlaw could get one of these into the hands of a reputable reviewer before they launch.
You won't see it go to a professional reviewer before launch. First, the reviewer is only going to be useful to any of us if he has final hardware and final firmware. Second, most professional reviewers distribute through channels that take months to go from delivery of review sample to publishing (even for online "magazines" like Secrets or Ultimate AV). Combine those two, and you get a situation where the product launch gets put on hold for several months just so that review can be published. That's not going to happen.

What we are likely to see is at least some feedback from Sherwood R-972 owners prior to the arrival of the Model 997. That 60+ day separation in product launches (and I'm not going to assume that it will be exactly 60 days, as Murphy's Law is nearly as inflexible as the law of gravity) will allow for some feedback of that type, with Trinnov likely to be the biggest subject of discussion. My concern is that many Sherwood customers are going to be buying from dealers rather than through online channels and are thus not as likely to be active in an online forum, so their experience is less likely to show up online readily. There's a good chance that we won't have a really useful collection of user feedback with the shared platform in hand until the gunslingers around here start using the 997 and posting about it. I'd expect a much higher percentage of 997 owners to speak up in forums than R-972 owners. That first month on the market should generate a lot of information.
_________________________
gonk
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#80273 - 04/23/09 07:21 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
mnmike Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2
Loc: Minneapolis
When is the 997 coming out? Seriously. This has been posted as "Coming Soon" for 6 months now.
sorroundophile, do you really think the number of people wanting a phono input is on par with those needing quadrophonic sound?

Soon as I get my tax refund I'm buying - and right now it's looking like the Integra DTC-9.8 (phono stage included)

Top
#80274 - 04/23/09 08:48 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
As has been mentioned several times (including at least once by Outlaw's PeterT), Outlaw is waiting for Sherwood to launch the R-972 receiver that is the basis for this platform. It will take at least 60 days after that for the Model 997 to launch, and if problems arise with the R-972 Outlaw may wait longer to provide time to implement any necessary fixes. The R-972 was due to launch by December when Outlaw first announced the Model 997, but that launch has been pushed back several times. The latest news I've seen suggests a launch between the end of this month and the middle of next month, which puts the Model 997 launch happening no sooner than mid-July.
_________________________
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#80275 - 05/07/09 05:06 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Retep Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/19/06
Posts: 266
Loc: Tauranga, New Zealand
I don't recall if this was answered or not, but it's not on the product page. Is there any change this unit will have dolby volume or something that can do the same thing without user interaction?

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#80276 - 05/07/09 07:13 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
I don't think the R-972 will have Dolby Volume, so I doubt the 997 will either.
_________________________
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#80277 - 05/07/09 08:22 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Retep Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/19/06
Posts: 266
Loc: Tauranga, New Zealand
Quote:
Originally posted by gonk:
I don't think the R-972 will have Dolby Volume, so I doubt the 997 will either.
That's unfortunate because it would be a great feature.

Top
#80278 - 05/11/09 03:58 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
mnmike Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2
Loc: Minneapolis
Just bought the Integra DTC-9.8!! LOVE IT!!! Couldn't wait forever for this to come out!!!!

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#80279 - 05/11/09 10:21 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
lanion Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 161
Audssey announced their new EQ which adds the front height speakers into the mix among other things. If integra gets a firmware of that out the door before the S/N / outlwaw product comes out It'll be depressing.... especially if the Outlaw doesn't support the height channels, even though I know head outlaw peter loves height channels.

Top
#80280 - 05/27/09 04:19 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Lee Bailey Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 86
Loc: Madera,CA.USA
Quote:
Originally posted by lanion:
Audssey announced their new EQ which adds the front height speakers into the mix among other things. If integra gets a firmware of that out the door before the S/N / outlwaw product comes out It'll be depressing.... especially if the Outlaw doesn't support the height channels, even though I know head outlaw peter loves height channels.
I thought the 997 uses Trinnov, not Audssey, for EQ.
_________________________
Current Setup:
Samsung HL61A750 LED DLP RPTV
Marantz SR5004 AVR / Outlaw 7075 Amp
L/C/R: Ascend Acoustics 340M/C/M
L&R Surrounds: Ascend Acoustics CBM 170
SVS 25-31PC
Panasonic BD55K Blu-Ray Player
Dishnetwork VIP722 HD/PVR.

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#80281 - 05/28/09 04:14 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
tkntz Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 161
Loc: United States
Quote:
Originally posted by Lee Bailey:
Quote:
Originally posted by lanion:
[b] Audssey announced their new EQ which adds the front height speakers into the mix among other things. If integra gets a firmware of that out the door before the S/N / outlwaw product comes out It'll be depressing.... especially if the Outlaw doesn't support the height channels, even though I know head outlaw peter loves height channels.
I thought the 997 uses Trinnov, not Audssey, for EQ. [/b]
I think that was the point. Lanion was saying that it is possible the Integra would have the height channels since it does use Audyssey, while the Outlaw, while being released later, might not. However, from what I've read elsewhere, height speakers are a possibility with Trinnov.

Top
#80282 - 05/29/09 08:22 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Alex Prosak Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 01/07/03
Posts: 43
Loc: Eagle River, AK
I just saw in the looooong Sherwood thread at AVS that Jeff (with Sherwood) indicated that the 972 is scheduled to hit the port on June 6, they will then go through QC and expect sufficient quantities to go to dealers by mid July. That should put the 997 into mid September at the earliest...so I'd assume seeing the 997 available in mid October.

Top
#80283 - 06/08/09 01:46 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Brucest Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 3
So when is it going to be available already?

Top
#80284 - 06/08/09 02:58 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Which? R-972 or Model 997?

The Sherwood R-972 information that Alex mentioned is the latest we have - first production run due to be in port roughly now (yesterday), followed by final QC and probably installation of firmware updates before distribution to dealers. How long will that take? No clue. I'd guess Alex's mid-July is probably a good guess (including QC, firmware revisions, installation of final production firmware, and shipping to dealers).

Add 60 days to that, and the earliest Outlaw is supposed to be able to have Model 997's would be mid-August. Murphy's law says the earliest is likely to be difficult to achieve, so extend past that as you see fit. I'm going to guess somewhere between September and October, but there's a sprinkling of pessimism in that.
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#80285 - 06/08/09 01:03 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Ritz2 Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/27/09
Posts: 414
Loc: Virginia
Quote:
Originally posted by Alex Prosak:
I just saw in the looooong Sherwood thread at AVS that Jeff (with Sherwood) indicated that the 972 is scheduled to hit the port on June 6, they will then go through QC and expect sufficient quantities to go to dealers by mid July. That should put the 997 into mid September at the earliest...so I'd assume seeing the 997 available in mid October.
LOL. That's the same Jeff that emailed me back in March and told me the R972 would arrive "sometime in April." laugh

Given that even Sherwood doesn't have the final product in their hands yet (as of information I've seen until today, June 8), I think Gonk's somewhat pessimistic estimate is likely to be fairly accurate.

Best,
_________________________
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#80286 - 06/08/09 02:46 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
tkntz Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 161
Loc: United States
Where did you hear/read that they don't have the final product in hand yet? All I've seen is that they haven't said one way or the other if it had been received in port or not. It doesn't seem to me like most companies would issue a press release for something like that.

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#80287 - 06/09/09 02:55 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
SRW1000 Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 48
Loc: Wisconsin
I've been thinking about the 997 since it's was announced, and for me, the two most disappointing omissions are:

1) No HD radio tuner.

2) No network connection for either firmware upgrades or network streaming. This is probably the most glaring omission for me. I'm just starting to convert all of my CDs to FLAC files to be stored on a network drive. It would have been very cool to access all of these files right from the 997, instead of having to buy yet another accessory.

Neither would keep me from purchasing a 997, but they would have been great value-add features that could help extend the life of this new processor.

Very excited about the Trinnov feature, by the way.

Scott

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#80288 - 07/05/09 04:41 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
suffolk112000 Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 33
Loc: Jackson MI
Someone posted this question on AVS...


"I'm also waiting (seems like forever now) for the 997. eek
I saw somebody post a few pages back that the mic cable is 15' long, does anybody know if it can be extended with a regular CAT5 patch cord?
My rack is outside my room, I'm not sure if 15' would be enough for me..."

I second this question as my equipment is in a separate room and I would require at least 30 feet of cord to reach my money spot.

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#80289 - 07/06/09 01:49 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Scott Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 673
Yes, a CAT 5 coupler and additional CAT 5 cabling is all that would be needed to extend the reach of the mic cable.

Scott

Top
#80290 - 07/27/09 07:09 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
AusTexRocker Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 50
Loc: Austin, Texas
Hi All,
New to the Saloon. I quess my concern over the lack of phono input will not prevent me from throwing down for the 997. My ancient Onkyo 777 is a solid workhorse but it's time to upgrade the tech toys. I am sure this has been discussed already, but will I be able to run analog 5.1 from the OPPO BDP-85 for SACD and HDMI for everything else or...keep the OPPO 970 for analog SACD.
_________________________
MAIN-OPPO BDP-105 directly to Outlaw 7700, PS Audio P3, Axiom M80V3 (front), Axiom M60ti (rear), Axiom OS8V2, Axiom VP180, PS3, Sony SXRD 55 inch monitor

Bedroom-Outlaw RR2150, Rotel RCD 1072, Dana Audio model 1

Blue Jeans connection on both

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#80291 - 07/27/09 08:42 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Well, first if you have the BDP-83 I wouldn't see any reason to hang on to the 970HD. Second, the BDP-83 can output SACD via HDMI just as well as it can output DVD-Audio, Dolby Digital, DTS, stereo and multichannel PCM, Dolby Digital Plus, TrueHD, DTS-HD High Resolution, and DTS-HD Master Audio. You will be able to connect the BDP-83 to the 997 via a single HDMI cable and use that for everything the player will play.
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#80292 - 07/28/09 02:37 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
Hank Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/30/01
Posts: 348
Loc: Austin, Texas, USA
Scott, do you need any more beta testers for this? Also how do I get on the pre-order list?

-Hank (early adopter of the 950)
_________________________
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#80293 - 08/01/09 01:40 AM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
petemc Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 12/22/03
Posts: 21
Loc: California, USA
Scott,

Looking around the web some dealers, examples www.projectorbundles.com and www.absoluteaudiovideo.com, are claiming that they have the Sherwood Newcastle R-972 in stock.
Do you know if the product was finally released by Sherwood? If not, do you have any updates on when this will be likely?

Like others, I am patiently waiting for the 997 smile

Many thanks

Pete
_________________________
Integra DHC40.1 preprocessor, Outlaw 7100 Power amp, Martin Logan Aeon II front speakers, Axiom LP150 center speaker, Axiom QS8 surround speakers, Outlaw LFM1 Plus subwoofer, Oppo DBP-83 Blu-Ray/SACD/DVD player, AppleTV music/photo server, DirecTV HR20 satellite receiver

Pete

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#80294 - 09/22/09 03:54 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
praedet Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/10/09
Posts: 66
Loc: Nebraska
I have read through all the posts on the 997 have have not found the answer to my question yet...

Is there any chance of a set of Balanced inputs on the 997?
_________________________
Speakers
Mains: Ninja Master Polk LSi9s
Center: Ninja Master Polk LSiC
Surround Sides: Slightly Modded Polk LSiFXs
Surround Rears: X-over+ Modded Polk LSi7s
Subs: Outlaw LFM-1 EX and Polk 505
Electronics
Sherwood R-972 (Waiting for the Outlaw (9XX)
Outlaw 7700 Amp
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#80295 - 09/22/09 04:25 PM Re: Model 997 Preliminary Product Page
gonk Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
I've seen no mention of a balanced stereo input and the R-972 does not have one. It's just a guess, but I'd expect them to have mentioned that if they were adding it.
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