Hi everyone, thanks first of all for populating this forum with extensive information for sound lovers.

As the title says, I’m looking for quality improvement there, but without knowing if I would get “bang for the buck” as American say (I’m not, I’m french, so sorry for the bad english…).
I moved recently from a Pioneer 454 SACD dvd player + Yamaha 1400RDS 5.1 system to a dedicated HTPC, with an Auzentech Prelude 7.1 soundcard, that is still plugged to the Yamaha, but to 7.1 speakers now.
The main difference is that I’m using the analog outputs of the Prelude (which is the main idea behind buying this thing), to feed the A/V receiver, selecting “multi ch input”.

So all the sound processing (e.g prologic IIx from AC3 tracks) is done by the PC, using various software (power DVD or VLC to name a few). The receiver is only “passed-through”.

I must say that from optic or coax output, decoded by Yamaha, to analog output from the Auzentech, with no digital processing from Yam, I saw a massive increase in quality. The sound is richer, crisper, less neutral, less “flaten” (if any of these can help you figuring out what it sounds ).

Now, after reading a lot about separate power amplification, and narrowing down to Outlaw 7700,7200 (or 7125?) product (precisely for the bang for the buck thing, as reviewed by many..), I’m wondering if:

I’d get such a pleasant surprise if I got rid of the yamaha, to put the Outlaw behind the sound card instead, or if I should keep the Yamaha for the 4 surrounds and buy a smaller dedicated power amp for the 3 fronts (2200?), or simply keep it as it is ! etc..etc..

I wouldn’t say money is no object as it always is, but I’d really like to be satisfied to find the optimal solution to de-bottleneck my installation, if there is a single bottleneck! I was so impressed by the improvement of the Prelude processing and analog outpu, that now I ask myself “are you missing something obvious that doesn’t cost 10k$ but would rivet you to your chair with happiness?”

Below is my configuration. I use this 70% of the time for movies, 20% for filmed music like operas, 10% for video games (to be increased :-P). My room in the basement is 20ft wide 21ft long, carpet on the floor and plaster walls.

The speakers I have are in home made cabinets , all 8 ohms, and incorporate the following:

sub: 269 SWR 51 XLS from Peerless 100W, + passive counterpart, individually powered by a 300W source.
center: 2* Audax HM100GB 40W with 1* Audax TM025 70W tweeter
Front: 1*Audax HM170G8 (60 W) and 1*TM025F1 tweeter (60W)
Surround: 1*Silverflute W14RC25, 60W and 2* Fostex FE87E ("rated input 5W, music input 10W" ?)
Back surround: Fostex FE127E rated 15W, music 45W?.


I would appreciate any feedback from people that “evoluted” like I could do, especially people that moved from Yamaha integrated receivers to Outlaw power amps, with or without keeping the Yam as a pre proc. What power would they advise me to get?
I would also welcome comment like: Your system is already very homogeneous, no bottleneck, keep it or change everything ! 
Again, thanks a lot for what you can throw at it, I’d be glad to give feedback on the installation I have, even though I’m more a PC geek than an audiophile.

First, your english reads fine to me.

Second, moving from the amps built into that Yamaha receive to a separate power amp (and I say this thinking of any of the three amps on your list, or even the little 7075) would be a nice upgrade.

Since your speakers are DIY, I'm not terribly sure what the overall efficiency of them might be. The RX-V1400 RDS is rated at 7x110W, although I don't know how that rating was achieved (may have been with just one channel driven). My suspicion is that a 7125 would be a nice "bang for the buck" upgrade. I went through a similar upgrade process a number of years ago, from Yamaha receiver to Outlaw receiver to Outlaw receiver plus separate amp, and each transition was a rewarding upgrade for me.

If you were to add a power amp, would you be planning to retain the Yamaha as a volume control or would you be using the HTPC's sound card software as a volume control? I'd prefer a component like the receiver for that role, but don't know enough about HTPC's to know what the practicality might be for going straight from PC to power amp.

Thanks a lot for your response Gonk.
First your point regarding the volume is very valid. I never thought of that. Adjusting the volume on an HTPC is not that practical, because you need a mouse nearby, and to come back to the window etc...But my case (crown CW02 from silverstone: tip: absolutely brilliant case, allows you to build a monster PC, yet totally silent because it has room for the right components) has a volume button, and a remote. It never occurred to me I would use it, but if I remove the Yam, then I will.
One good news is that you seem to think the 7125 would be good enough (I don't push anything to the max anyway), so the budget becomes very reasonable indeed.
Since I'm no expert, I can't make my mind on this power thing. It seems there's a consensus that the Yam & others' rating like 7*110 W is greatly exaggerated, compared to "all channels driven" ratings.
But then it comes down to an apparently very debated topic: the higher amp Wattage above speakers W the better? equal is fine? if amp is lower there's a risk of blowing the tweeter, is that an issue for common people? etc.. not forgetting what I read quite often: a powerful amp will get the speakers to "speak" at their upmost quality even at low volume...
So going for a dedicated power amp, is that only a question of power, or also a question of quality? I must admit that, not being in electronics, for me once the signal is generated (by the sound card in that case), that's it, an amp will not remove some voices or some crashes, or put a horn where there is none. But that may be where I'm completely wrong and overly incredulous about putting money in a separate amp.
Could you convince me a bit more?

As you are already thinking, a separate power amp is as much (or more) about quality of the power as about the quantity of the power. Much of our time is spent at power output levels well below the 75W mark (often even below the 15W mark). A separate amp has a much larger power supply, not to mention more robust individual amp channels and better cooling. As for speaker damage, clipping is probably the easiest way to hurt a driver - and it's easier to drive a receiver amp to clipping than a separate amp. Overpowering the speaker is possible, but that takes a very high volume level. Your ears may bring you to ease off on the volume before you get close to an "over-power" state (also keeping in mind that lower efficiency speakers are designed to handle the larger amounts of power required to get them to really high volume levels).

How would you score the improvement you got by changing the receiver, than by adding a power amp to your new receiver , from 1 to 100?
Or in other terms: did your other half/family i.e. objective people notice the difference and said: yes your investment is justified, I can really hear it and I wouldn't want you to come back to how it sounded before...
Not that it matters most, but these people are not dragged by the fact they invest money so they won't shy away from saying: nope, not a big difference.
Another question regarding 7125 Vs 7200 for instance: besides the added power, would you say there's a difference in quality of sound between both? or is it just because some people are compulsive about power (or live in a gigantic home?)

Hmmmm... The receiver and amp upgrades in question were 7 to 8 years ago now, so I hate trying to grade them. Also, they aren't ideal comparisons to your case. (The Yamaha receiver was a Pro Logic unit replaced by an Outlaw 1050 that had DD/DTS decoding and a better-than-average amp section.) Having said that, the Paradigm speakers that I added because of the receiver upgrade audibly benefited from the addition of a separate amp - most notably at medium to higher volumes.

As for the 7125 and 7200, I haven't heard either - I've used Outlaw's original 750, the Model 200 monoblock, and the 7500. Based on what I know of them, though, the real difference between the two is power. There are some large rooms and some very inefficient speakers out there that can need the extra power. There are also folks who just want the "peace of mind" of extra power. The two amps are built by the same manufacturer in California with comparable components.

I see. I've read my speakers info and they range from 89 to 93, more often from 91 to 93 dB. Not sure how this is a sign of quality or not but it seems, having read other threads, that the 7125 would power them well enough.
I have two very practical questions for you Gonk (seems you're the only "on duty" expert, or that my thread is awfully banal so nobody else is interested...or maybe this has been discussed a thousand times before :-) anyway thanks a lot again for your input)
So so,
a) if I remove the Yam, in order to connect my sub, can I find a female/female RCA adapter? because a male RCA is coming out of my Prelude, and my subwoofer cable is indeed another male RCA. Any issue with that?
b) If I were to keep the yamaha, maybe for the volume thing, or the subwoofer reason, or even the component cables "gathering" from Satellite and/or SACD dvd player (which I use rarely), is there a detrimental effect regarding sound quality to have an A/V receiver "in between" a high quality sound card, and a high quality power amp like Outlaw. If my aim is to gain power AND quality, shouldn't I remove completely the Yam or does it know how to be completely transparent?
c) have you ever heard of an electrical "blow back" effect that would fry my sound card or PC?, if I plugged the sound card outlet on the Outlaw directly? (I admit my ignorance of electronic phenomenon here :-)

Let's see if I can help here...

1. Yes, you can find adapters such as you describe. Locally, Radio Shack ought to have something, and there are a number of online sources as well (Monoprice probably, but I've also seen them elsewhere.
2. Keeping the Yamaha solely as a volume control shouldn't be detrimental since it should be a very clean signal path. I've never really done it myself, though, and I haven't used the 1400 so I can't be 100% sure.
3. No, I can't think of a way to blow out the sound card by connecting it directly to an amp - at least, not without doing something drastic (like hooking things up wrong and pushing the amp output into the HTPC.

How does the HTPC handle bass management, by the way?

Pepe, prior to auditioning the Outlaw products, my Yamaha 2092 handled the processing, switching and powered my Martin Logan reQuests. I did A-B comparisons between the Yamaha 2092 and Outlaw gear upon receiving it. I found the Outlaw 990 to be a nice upgrade to the processing of the 2092. Swapping the 2092 power for the Outlaw 7125 was even a larger improvement (than the processing) for my difficult to drive speakers.

I ended up upgrading the Outlaw 7125 to the 7500 because my speakers still sounded "compressed" --less so with the 7125 than with the Yamaha 2092--and have been extremely pleased with that choice.

I suggest trying the 7125 since it sounds like your speakers aren't too difficult to drive.

Rob

Very useful feedback guys, I appreciate.
Gonk, Re the bass on the HTPC, you're in the hands of the software here. Auzentech's enables to set the cross over frequency, and the volume of bass & treble.
I can also set the crossover at 80kHz on the Yam, and directly on my subwoofer. I have a separate volume on the sub too.
When I use multi ch input on the yamaha it's supposed not to do anything to the low frequency signal though, or any of them.
From the sound card, one jack becomes two RCAs (center and sub).That's all I can say, I don't know if that answers your question.

Candyman, that's exactly the kind of experience I was after. I checked those Martin Logan, they seem way above my specifications so the 7125 sounds a good option for my modest speakers :-)
May I ask again how would you describe the improvement from a receiver amplification to a dedicated amplification, in qualitative terms that is, since putting the volume at its max to wake up the neighbours is not what I'm after here.
thanks

I was hoping that the software was employing some sort of crossovers, since the Yamaha's 80Hz crossover is only for digital or analog stereo inputs. I generally recommend either disabling the sub's crossover or setting it as high as possible.

The cross over on the yamaha would only be considered for stereo signal?..interesting!
The software from Auzentech Prelude soundcard does indeed sets the cross over, at the frequency you choose.
Why would you set the sub's crossover as high as possible (you mean at higher frequencies right?)

The receiver's stereo analog inputs (not a stereo signal to the multichannel input) are converted to digital and then become functionally identical to a PCM stereo signal coming via a coaxial or optical digital cable.

I would either disable the sub's crossover or set it to its highest setting because you already have a bass management system in place that is redirecting bass from other channels into the sub and merging them with the LFE channel. You don't need to sub's crossover, and if it is set anywhere near the crossovers in the HTPC or receiver then you will start to stack crossovers (thus losing some low frequency data in the vicinity of the crossovers, since none of the crossovers are "brick walls" and all have a slope associated with them that creates some influence both above and below the set crossover point).

I see. sounds like a must do, I'll leave the job to the sound card then.
Your note regarding the digital conversion puzzles me. I bought this sound card for its analog outputs. I observed a real improvement in quality over using the digital optical output.
But will I go through a digital conversion if i set up the system as: sound card->7.1 analog outputs->A/V 7.1 multi ch input -> pre outs -> Outlaw 7125 and sub?
Again, I'm still questioning the "neutrality" of the A/V receiver in between source and power amp.

My note regarding the digital conversion relates to the Yamaha - and the way that any surround receiver or processor deals with analog stereo inputs. Because many of the features that we associate with a surround receiver (surround processing modes, bass management, individual speaker levels and delays, etc) are handled by the DSP with digital audio signals, those analog inputs need to be converted to digital. On the other hand, the multichannel analog input on a receiver (be it 5.1 or 7.1) is there largely because of the existence of lossless audio formats - and we don't want those audio streams getting overly jostled from D to A to D to A. As a result, using the receiver's 7.1 analog input skips all of that - the signal goes to the volume control and then to the internal amps (or the pre-amp outputs). It isn't necessarily completely neutral, as it will depend on how well designed and clean the analog signal path is within the receiver, but you are at least remaining in the analog domain throughout.

Pepe, I missed an amplification step on my response to you. My actual amplification progression was:
Yamaha 2092 -> Classe CAV-75 -> Outlaw 7125 -> Outlaw 7500

I too don't (usually) listen at high volumes. The difference between the Yammie and the standalone amplifiers was quite noticeable even at comfortable listening levels. The sound was more resolved and less "forced" with the amplifiers vs receiver. I hope that helps.

Rob

Hi guys,
It's been a while, vacation, business trips, etc...but the thought of upgrading my system made its way and I finally placed an order for a 7125.

That's it, my first step into the dedicated amp world.
I'll let you know what non expert ears think about the difference with integrated amp.

I will leave the Yam in between the sound card and the Outlaw though, since it comes handy with the few components connections to manage.

I wished to thank you very much for your expertise and prompt answers everytime.
See you soon with listening impressions..

I look forward to hearing how it works out for you.

I started out years ago with a Kenwood receiver. After a few months it started to have problems and I repalced it with an Adcom Pre-Amp and 2ch Amp. I could hear an improvement going from a receiver to seperates. I had this set-up for about 8 years, then got an Outlaw 950 processor and an Adcom 5ch amp. I could hear an improvment again. Two years ago I repalced this with an Outlaw 990 and 7125 amp. Sound got even better. Then this summer I replaced the amp with the 7500 in preperation of buying new speakers. The 7500 had a "fuller" sound to it, over the 7125. Bass was more defined and not as "muddy" on the low notes. Then a month later I got my new B&W 804S/HTM3S speakers and heard a major upgrade in sound quality.

Unless a person has A LOT of money to buy the best up front, most of us take "baby steps" over the years....replacing a piece at a time. I'm sure what I have now will last a long time, but then I might get a better CD player, DAC, or the repalcement to the 990 next year.

I'm sure you'll be happy with your 7125 as I was.
I have mine for sale on Audiogon, since it was replaced with the 7500.

Pff..11th of September..Goodness, time flies. whereas my 7125 has landed :-) Good for me. It's plugged in behind the Yam which acts as pre amp now. And the Yam is used for its analog passthrough and management of volume and component source. My source is a HTPC with an auzentech XFi Prelude 7.1 soundcard. I use the analog output exclusively
So so...well, it sounds better. How much better would anybody in my situation ask?.. I must say I was massively impressed by the switch from digital output to analog outputs on my soundcard. Gigantic leap. then by switching to a dedicated amp enabled me to hear what i was only presuming. It's unleashed, when it needs to bang, it does, it doesn't stop halfway. One of the first movie I threw at it was master commander in DTS (reminder, DTS decoded by sound card, thrown at 7.1 analog, through Yam, and output by 7125). This alones makes you congratulate yourself for the purchase. It gives the whole installation more breath, and much more "relief" (in french, sorry), err..distinction between what should be wispered and what should be blasted?. The range seems wider. And somehow I have the feeling there is a clear cut, no sound "blur" or overlap, dunno.
As for the power, since many people hesitate with the 7200, I'd say it's plenty enough to power a 7.1 in a basement about 20 ft *20 ft, and with a lot in reserve. However, I have modest speakers I think (see my first post)so people with more ambition might find a use for all that power (I leave that debate to the experts though :-)
Overall a great purchase, but above all a very impressive value for money.
A big thank to all the guys here for their advice which proved very accurate.

Glad to hear that the 7125 has worked out well for you!