I am looking into purchasing one of these, and I wanted to findout what some of the better value combo units are out there? I have noticed more vendors are offering universal players, but most are priced in the $700 to $1000. The Pioneer DV-45A has come down in price and I haven't really seen much else in the $350 to $500 range.
Thanks

I'd avoid the Pioneer models unless you already have a DVD player. All the current Pioneer models have the CUE problem, not to mention that they tend to finish nearly dead-last in the annual DVD ShootOut.

I own the Panasonic DVD-RP82. It doesn't do SACD, but it does do DVD-A. It has the Faroudja de-interlacer and received the top rating in the aforementioned shoot-out.

Otherwise, off the top of my head, I can't think of a good combo player. From what I've heard, you're often better getting two cheap players -- one for DVD-A and one for SACD -- than you are in getting one expensive one.

Jeff

I have to disagree concerning the Pioneer 45A combo player. I have had nothing but great sound and picture from it with none of the "cueing" problem the other person refer's to (which has never come up in my research on this product). I would highly recommend this product as a dual player. Check out the feedback on Audiogon. All the major publications also highly recommend this player. I would audition this player and make your on decision (bring along the new SACD of Dark side of the moon), good luck.

Im with ssand...it is a magnificent player all around. and for the price?? Are you kidding me? Its a bargain!

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Play it LoUd!!

Source: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/s...&deInt=0&mpeg=0

Now, these comments are based off of the list price of $700, which has dropped sharply. Maybe it's a better bargain now, but it doesn't sound like it. Any player that introduces poor performance into your system is no bargain, in my opinion.

Compare that to the Panasonic DVD-RP82 which I own, that had a list price of $229.95:



Source: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/s...&deInt=0&mpeg=0

Jeff

Poor performance is subjective when you’re factoring tradeoffs. (dual Vs single HighR audio formats and video Vs audio preformance) The shootouts all involve video performance of the players (some might argue their main function)

And if that is your sole concern, you should separate your video performance from you audio player/s completely and get a Bravo DI player if you have a DVI LCD/plasma/DLP enabled display or FP. Then you can achieve what some reviewers have called “reference” quality video, for 200.00. This particular unit recommended only if you have a DVI connection as it eliminates all D/A video conversion if you do.

But when your factoring performance across the board, Last I was keeping track the Pioneer would beat the Panny in sound. (particularly in straight CD play) And I would not trade my RP91 for either one of them.

From reviews I’ve seen (and I have not kept track lately) If your looking for the pricebreaks of discontinued or end of cycle models. Choose the Pioneer if your emphasis is on audio and want a dual format player (SACD and DVD-A).Choose something like the 82 if your emphasis is on video. And only want to get a start in the HR formats (DVD-A).
And me I always have to be different when all three were currently available units. I chose the RP91 (DVD-A only) for a combo of factors, scaling for a 16.9 screen being my priority at the time.
Happy enough with its audio/ aging video performance not to be attracted (yet) to shopping later generation advancements.

I’m really not keeping track with the reviews on the current crop of dual HR formats models. I’m perfectly content to give them a little more time for further V and advancements and price drops occur.
What will drive you crazy during these purchases are the tradeoffs.
If my priority was the BEST A & V. I’d break up my purchases into single units. Possibly try the Bravo then shop for audio players separately.

When you factor convenience of the all in ones. There have been enough consumers of the Pioneer 45 (mutltifuntion) who have been extremely satisfied with its performance (including video)(some posts in this thread remark on their satisfaction).
I would think it should be a contender on your shopping list, -if what you really want is a universal player, And are trying not to break the bank with a latest model dual format purchase.

I too have been very happy with the Panasonic RP91. I believe it has slightly better video resolution than the RP82, but is essentially the same... both have a CD upsample feature that I think provides great value.

SLL... do you use the upsample (Remaster) feature that converts 16bit/44MHz CD to a 24bit/88MHz signal?
I have found that in "Remaster 2" mode, using the RP91's D/A (Outlaw 950 in bypass mode), the quality of CD music is significantly improved.

Of the three Remaster settings, 1,2 & 3, I have settled on 2 for most listening, but the upsample algorithim is slightly different for each. Have you found this feature benficial? and if so, how do you do use it?

Thanks

Allan

Exactly, but bear in mind that these reviews are not just "well I feel it's better": they are a set of criteria that's listed prior to the shootout and explained in great detail. The tests are therefore repeatable and unbiased.



True, although I've heard that the picture improvement is not of the same order of magnitude that you get when you eliminate D/A and A/D in audio. That is, apparently, the picture improvement with DVI is not a huge one. I can't confirm or deny this, since I haven't seen it, but that seems to be the scuttlebut from the cogniscenti.



Actually, I've heard from a number of sources that the Pioneer Elite players' audio is awful. The only reason I didn't bring it up earlier is that I don't recall the source.

If you're interested, go to the SMR forums and post a thread on this topic. I'm betting that Stuart might be able to point you to reviews and/or tests that back this up.




I agree that this is the best approach. My Panasonic player also has DVD-A, but this was a side-effect: I bought the player with the best video available, and it happened to have DVD-A. Until more discs become available, I'm not terribly concerned with DVD-A performance in my system.

Jeff

Allan, I believe the 91 has the older Genesis chipset, with the 82 having the FLI2200 Genesis/Sage/Faroudja chip onboard. Both the 91 and 82 units supposedly use the same high-end MPEG decoder on-board. And any product (other brands used the Panasonic platform) with this one, will be without the chroma bug. Although others choices which do display the Chroma problem do not always exhibit to a degree which greatly bothers the owners.
For CD play sometimes I use both the Outlaw and 91's DAC’s. It depends on the CD.
I started trying to firm up BM in the 91 with different discs, and never finished playing with the re-master options. Early on I believe I mistakenly thought that the re-master only worked in analog output (when I sped read about the Denon problems with it) so I did not scroll through the choices very often during heavy playing the first days I owned it as I was mucking mainly in digital output those days. Mostly I’ve played with re-master off and bypass-video function. . Need to go back and play with it some more. I have a lot left to learn in bass management but I used to spend more time figuring out how to handle that on CD play. Since the 91 has no BM in CD or DVD-A play. I’ll sometimes listen to CD’s Via the 91 analog outputs but depending on the CD, will also use the digital input on the 950 for some of my stereo listening. Honestly work tied me up, and I never sorted out a ‘default’ to leave the 91 or the 950 in. Depending on the CD, I’ll just scroll through some of my choices till it sounds right. When I use the digital output from the 91 there is a bass signal added to the bitstream. It seemed (maybe that was one reason, or I just preferred the 950’s DAC’s with certain recordings) better for some of my discs via digital, and conversely others through the 91’s analog outputs.
I need to try out the re-master setting on certain CD’s I purchase since I acquired the 91 to see if there are marked differences I can distinguish. Thanks for the reminder!.

Jeff, I was not referring to a bias of “I like it better” although this has its place in any individuals purchase, and I respect anyone’s right to exercise "Like" Vs "Dislike" subjectively, when the funds come from their own wallet.

I think you leaned my post a direction I was not headed. Was not trying to challenge your shootout criteria I was referencing the BIAS created by tradeoffs, which should properly be left to each individual self-determined grading of priorities.

If the priority is a dual format player. The 82 is necessarily instantly eliminated, no matter how capable its DVD-V performance.

I’ve seen many many Pioneer purchase’s who chose the 45 models for its capability and liked its sound. I remember if memory serves that some owners felt there was weakness on its SACD playback. But were content with its performance. And (just my life) would never throw out the term “awful” without backing it with something concrete in any AV forum, actually I would not use the term at all, since (I don’t own one, but what if I did and you made me cry. ). Those are fighting ‘sounds like’ words and I don’t like fights.
When it launched at full retail, many purchasers could have gone any number of routes if highest priority was the BEST SACD playback on the market but again Not if dual functionality was the #1 purchase criteria.

Personally as regards SACD and DVD-A I find the recordings all over the map in quality. (DVD-A by my own ear, taking other peoples word for the SACD format). I’m not sure if its worth the extra money (or space) to have a dedicated SACD, AND DVD-A AND DVD-V players in your system. (the best of all worlds usually when letting any unit focus on doing ONE thing well). I wonder if its even wise to wait on all that. Who knows if the core media will change before the dual players even reach a point that it is common to have highest quality audio playback with the best video available at a cost only big pockets can afford. Early adopters get the pleasure of having the ability to pick up discs in either format, while SACD and DVD-A are still currently available. If the industry goes as the industry goes HR playback will morph into some entirely different recording medium. In the meantime, those not wanting their title choices limited get the most bank for the buck out of these two mutichannel formats being on board the same unit with decent video capabilities especially when prices are coming down as there are now on the first/second generation of these units.

Just me!

Dear SSL:

Regarding the lack of bass in Analog Bypass Mode... Please check to see that the RP91 speaker set-up menu has all speakers set to large. If not, you may not be sending the full range analog signal to the 950 inputs, and this could cause the drop in bass information in Analog Bypass Mode you described.

When the Outlaw 950 receives an upsampled (24bit/88MHz) PCM digital signal it is only able to process the signal in Digital Stereo Mode. Dolby, DTS and Cirrus Music Modes are not available. The Digital Stereo Mode does, however, allow BM for the two main channels.

For this reason, I prefer to set the Outlaw 950 to Analog Bypass Mode for music that does not benefit from any of the surround sound processing modes. The 950 Bypass Mode sends the full range signal to the Front Main channels. In my experience, the analog output of the RP91 in combination with the 950 in Analog Bypass Mode is excellent.

My particular set-up utilizes a sound processor, for the Front Main channels (for bass frequencies only), and therefore allows for BM in the Analog Bypass Mode. The Outlaw ICBM can also be used for this purpose.

For CD music that will benefit significantly from multi-channel sound processing, it is not possible to use the Remaster feature of the RP91. For these recordings, Remaster should be turned off, and the 950 can do its thing, in whatever digital mode works best.

I hope this is of some help. I believe your Vienna's are wonderful speakers that can give voice to the benefits of the RP91's upsampling capabilities.

Allan

[This message has been edited by AGAssarsson (edited June 30, 2003).]

The Pioneer 47a & 47ai are used as a reference players in most Stereophile review systems.

;-)

The Digital Stereo Mode does, however, allow BM for the two main channels.

Some of the CD’s seemed to come across bass light, and the Dig Stereo, would occasionaly help those. More often (recording dependent) the digital input was detrimental to the base which would seem better integrated and fuller in bypass?! Learning I LACK, need to deal with my Sub, (which I’m not too fond of). I find it boomy and muddy. If I’m learning properly, - I believe its dampening stinks, it just does not appear to be able to handle fast transients. Disagreeable hanging around in the air like a bad headache on occasion..

Good reason to look into Outlaw’s new sub. Originally I had intended (when I found time) to try and find a REL, to demo, from certain reviews I had read, - thought that brand might be a consideration to blend with the Beethoven’s. I’d love to study up and implement SH’s stereo SW’s. But space is THE problem.
I never released how TERRIBLE some CD’s were till setting up the 950 and the Vienna’s. Thank you for the info on the 91. I promise to try experimenting with upsampling. Hopefully that will help add some air to the some of the less than ideally mastered (but sometimes favorite) CD’s I spin.

I don’t know your tastes in recordings. But shortly after purchasing the new mains, I picked up George Winston’s CD “Night Divides the Day”.

Wow! That frequency range (actually more the voice of a grand) on that particular recording is something to hear on the VA’s. (bypass for this one). I recommend the CD but will mention it DOES crack me up on a few of the tracks, (all tracks are songs by “The Doors”). On a few of these (sorry they were just NEVER composed for piano solo.) I cannot help but picture one of varying Saturday Night Skits about cheap cheesy piano bars. (“Light my Fire’ always has me snickering).

But a few tracks, are worth the purchase, - particularly “Crystal Ship” “Summer almost Gone” and “My Wild Love” are really really magical to hear on this system. I believe it’s the “My Wild L?” track where he hand plucks the strings in the body of the Grand during large portions of this composition. The resonance and pitch and reverberation of the bass notes during this, will mezmorize you! Occasionally he plucks one of the largest diameter wire, (you know how long these bass notes reverberate before it decays to inaudiblity). And the mic stays with the single note till it does. Very NICE!.

If my “bass” would just sound like that ….all the time…sigh.

ASoonas possible. I’m going to be playing with settings again, due to your reminder! Thanks for the help and settings to check and consider!

OK, here's my take. I use the 45a and am quite satisfied. Even though I can appreciate cutting edge, I'm more excited by the convenience of throwing any cd in the machine and having it automatically read it, regardless of format. I used to be a vinyl purist but the idea of washing both sides of the lp, then de-static-ing it w/ the Zerostat, then carefully cleaning the stylus to listen to 20 minutes of music is anathema to me now. I guess I'm just lazy but, I notice that the software is generally more variable in quality than the machine hides with it's own supposed lack of quality. I'll take the relatively high quality convenience of the 45a.
BTW, what's the opinion of the new Pioneer all in one being sold by Best Buy?

Jay

JMS,

I seem to recall hearing that the latest Pioneer players do not have the CUE problem. I don't know whether that's true, or anything else about the new line.

Jeff

I read reviews talking about sounding clearer from this player and warmer from that player. I thought those characters have more to do with amp and speakers than DVD player itself. Am I wrong on this?

If I am concerned with 51% audio quality, 49% video quality and trying to decide from two to three DVD players in the same price range, are there information I should look for in the spec that may help me to choose the better one?

Try the Pioneer DV-563A. If you can belive Sound and Vision and Home Theater its the player to get. Price $250 list but ive seen it for $179 at Crutchfield.

149 at wholesaleconnection.com who I deal with pretty frequently, pretty reputable folk.

Hi. I am a new 950-/770 owner and loving it. I, too, am looking to add a new DVD-A/SACD player. I am replacing my Pioneer ELite DV-47A. Please accept that my comments are totally subjective. IMHO, the Pioneer unit is a great DVD player. Picture is superb and colors are grand. (I do route it through a DVDO IScan Ultra processor). DVD-A sounds terrific (I also have an ICBM in the loop for 5.1 audio). I am not as impressed with SACD sound. I am not sure how to describe it, but "antiseptic" comes to mind, or "thin." My main gripe is that the build quality is not what I have experienced with previous Pioneer Elite gear I have purchased, and after owning it for about a year, I have started experiencing serious video drop-outs. It is on its way back to Pioneer, and I am using my SOny DV9000ES for DVD right now (which I think provides a superior picture ot the Pioneer despite its age). I have just ordered a Denon 5900 DVD player, but due to availability it may not be in until early January. I will return and drop a few lines on my "subjective" impressions of the new player.

Good luck!

Mike

If interested and you have a CC store near you, I saw the Pioneer 563A for 10% off via their web site, January 27, 2004.

Well, I promised that I would drop back and comment on the Denon 5900 when it came in. We hooked it up tonight and because of the late hour (OK - I am 52 and 11:00 is nor "late" for me) we were only able to preview a few minutes of one or two DVDs. It may be the hour, or it may be that I do so want to really be bowled over by a player that costs what this one did, but we are bowled over! The video is simply amazing. The picture clarity is outstanding. Flesh tones are super-realistic and natural. And the audio is really something to behold. The gunfight in Open Range occasionally makes me jump as the crack of a pistol shot leaps over our heads.

OK. I am probably not being objective. But I am really impressed with the initial experience with this unit. After I hook up the 6 channel audio and get to listen to some DVD-A and SACD I will check back.

Thanks for listening!

Mike

I'll be fifty-five in October. Get over it.

Sounds good so far, mgdurand. Look forward to hearing more about DVD-A and SACD. The Denon 5900 and 2900 are both getting good reviews at the moment (including reviews for both the 5900 and 2900 at Secrets). I haven't seen much feedback yet about the littler Denon universal (the 2200), but what I have read has also been positive. Yamaha's also got a new universal player coming out around March that I plan to look into -- the DVD-S1500, which will have Faroudja DCDi for progressive scan and will retail for around $400.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Well, I promised I'd return with my experience with DVD-A and SACD from the Denon 5900. Had a few configuration problems for which I have stumbled into correction, and have listened a bit (although remodeling started soon after the player arrived). As I mentioned before, visually and sonically on DVDs, the 5900 is really something. The picture is pristine. Colors are right and vivid where they need to be. Flesh tones are better than I have ever seen. Sound is crisp and clean. Center channel is clear and distinct. Best DVD player I have ever owned.

I have also been impressed with the DVD-A and SACD performance. With my previous multi-player (Pioneer Elite DV47a), the SACD performance was to my ears lacking. It sounded, as I have mentioned before as well, somewhat antiseptic. With the few listening sessions I have had a chance ot experience with the 5900, that perception is gone. Sound is full, not overly bright, terrific separation and just a pleasure to listen to (both SACD and DVD-A). Running the 5900 through the 950/770 with Mirage OM-5s for the front, MIrage HDT-F doe the center, Mirage HDT-Rs for the surrounds and a Mirage BPS-400 sub.

All the above is purely subjective, of course, but I would not hesitate to recemmend this unit. A bit pricey, but I have no regrets.

The only fault so far with the 5900 is that I find it to be really slow with menu navigation. However, I can live with that.

Now if only the hammering would stop! Remodeling is hell.

Mike

[This message has been edited by mgdurand (edited March 03, 2004).]

Oil Can:

55? Gee, sir, congratulations. I feel so much younger now! (hehe).

You know, I'd never go back! However, I admit that having the 950/770 does make me FEEL younger.

Mike

Get the Pioneer 563A. Saw it at Best Buy for $159. It may not be perfect but to my humble ears it is wonderful and for $159 you really cannot lose.

Have not heard the Pioneer 563A but have read a number of reviews. All seem to indicate it is a great bang for the buck machine.

Mike

Hey there everyone. I've been looking for a DVD/SACD/DVD-Audio player for a while now and began to ask myself if a universal player is what really wanted. Sure you can play any disc you want to in it, but regardless of this you will allways have certain trade-offs for having this capability. The Denon line of universal DVD players have from what I have read both online and in magazines, become the defacto "reference" standard in all around quality as of late and according to Secrets(http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=112), have by far the most glitch free operation of any progressive player on the market, but you definately pay for that performance. On the other end of the spectrum Pioneer has made it's once ELITE-only universal player available via the DV-563a and Secrets also stated that it performs well, and even overcame the Chroma Upsampling Error that has been plaguing that line for years, as mentioned above. But one wild card in this has sprung up time and time again: the Sony DVP-NC555ES DVD/SACD player. I know that many of you may jump all over me right away because this player isn't universal, and I too was leary about even concidering it until I began to really lay out all the facts about what I truely desire from a DVD player.

My first obstical was the DVD-A/SACD compatability, so I looked hard at the two formats to see who was giving the consumers the most for their money. Now DVD-Audio discs as a rule are compatible with standard DVD players as either DTS or PCM stereo output, with the DVD-Audio portion accessable with a compatible player. I thought about this, also taking into account the average price of a DVD-Audio title at roughly $20-$25. Then I looked into SACD discs and found that they have steadily been coming down in price, where now one can pick up a new release from artists such as Heart and Peter Gabriel that are SACD Hybrid discs (they play on both SACD and CD players alike) for about $16. Due to this fact, I found myself leaning more and more towards SACD as my format of choice, so I went to the GOOD GUYS to put both formats to the test and I must say that from where I stood, and maybe this was just the selection of titles I listened to but DVD-A sounded kind of gimmicky, with lots of emphasis on surround immersion. This was sort of cool, until I listened to the SACD's. All I can say is DAMN! I was bowled over at how incredibly open, warm and natural the sound was. And when I listened to surround SACD material I was utterly mesmerised my the ingeniusness of the artists and mixers that had no doubt put much time and effort into making the exerience worthwhile and not a gimmick.

Well it was during this that I was first able to put the Sony DVP-NC555ES player to the test in person. Once I had heard how impressive this unit was I immediatelly wanted to put it's SACD prowess against another SACD player of similar caliber, so I chose the Pioneer DV-45a, which The Good Guys sells for $399. Honestly I would have to say that the Sony player sounded quite a bit better than the Pioneer and can now understand why Pioneer has reduced the price of this player. That is not to say that the DV-45a is a poor player, just that I personally found the Sony quite a bit better for my taste. And then I found out how stunningly the DVP-NC555ES's progressive video performance is! This little player is leaps and bounds better than it's predicessors the DVP-9000ES and the newer "flagship" model the DVP-NS999ES, with better audio performance than either of these two players, as well as finally eliminating the Chroma Upsampling Error, and having a very compairable build quality to boot. That doesn't mean that it does not have it's own downside, one being that it's a 5-DVD changer, and the other that it has a longer layer switch time of between 1.5-2.0 seconds, which could be a bit distracting, but concidering it's other attributes I believe these to be moot points. If I was able to afford a Denon universal player I would by all means be the proud owner of such a find player, but due to my budgetary limitations I believe my money will be best spent on the new Sony ES player.

I have been looking to replace my current progressive scan DVD with a universal player as well. I have a Sony xa777es that I just moved to my music room to do just 2-channel sacd/cd. Better system down there really brings forth xa777es' capabilities -- it was an overkill for the Polk SDA II's and Aperion surrounds. Now I have a 7.1 sytem without an sacd/dvd-a player.....

I have been looking into Denon dvd 2200 which is just below $500 street price. It compares with Sony DVP nc555es. I am looking for the best value/performance that is commensurable with the Outlaw 950/770, Pany 35' HD tube and the above speakers. Has anyone compared these two?

I have not yet compared either of these models (hoping to get to see the Yamaha S1500 in the next week or two, ideally alongside the Denon 2200). The Sony isn't actually a universal player, though -- it will do SACD, but not DVD-Audio. Both the Denon 2200 and the Sony 555 have been included in the Secrets Shoot-Out , and in that the Denon had a better showing. All of the tests that the Denon failed or was borderline on were shared with the Sony, but the Sony failed or was borderline on several other tests as well (including a four-second layer change). In the end, the Denon scored an 83 overall to the Sony's 69.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

secrets is primarily reviewing video playback, perhaps not a good reference for multichannel audio. that is one of the most useful articles i have come across though... i think denon dvd players are the way to go right now, however there are better performers than the 2200 up and down their pricing class.

oh, and pioneer elite and pioneer dvd players are horrible for video quality!!!!!!!!! if only they could get their act together and get some proper dvd players. i had the elite dv-37 and any large amount of solid color looked like a brick wall on my 65" hd-rptv. so it went off to another happy customer on ebay, muhahah. denon is the best out right now at any price.

Is 2900 worth the extra bucks over 2200? I want one around 500 but not over 750 max.

looking at the shootout i would say definitely. you should be able to haggle one for $750 or less online or at a store. i have found my local denon dealer to be very generous with dvd player prices, now if i can only wear him down on other things... :-)