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#72230 - 08/25/06 04:13 AM Vertical hold issue
Belgand Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 08/23/05
Posts: 59
Loc: San Francisco, CA
In a nutshell under certain conditions a video signal passed through the 1070 will not maintain vertical hold.

To date this has been noticed with only two pieces of software, both video games, but on different systems, and each using different inputs on the 1070.

The first time I noticed this was on my Nintendo Gamecube with the Legend of Zelda Collector's Edition disc. Most of it worked fine, but on the first two games in the set I would persistently get an issue where the vertical hold was off and the picture would constantly scroll off down the screen. The system is connected with the standard composite cables included with the console and is hooked up to the Video 2 input on the 1070. All video signals coming from the 1070 are routed to my TV via Component video alone.

Since I had purchased the game used I wrote it off to bad software and counted it off as bad luck until now.

Earlier today I purchased (also used) Ico for the Sony Playstation 2. When I put the disc in and it booted up I got the exact same problem. One of the opening cinematics did not have the vertical hold problem, but everything else did. This system is likewise connected via composite video, but to a different input (Video 4 for the moment). This time since the cables were right up front I had the bright idea the composite video cable out of the 1070 and just hook it up to the TV using the front inputs I have up there. Lo and behold it worked perfectly. No vertical hold problems at all. I disconnected the Gamecube at the Gamecube end and using another cable (since I didn't really want to pull the 1070 out of the rack) I connected it to the TV's front inputs. Again, the problematic software no longer had any issue with vertical hold.

Thus, the common factors are that both had the same type of vertical hold problem, but it was not pervasive throughout the entirety of the software, both were connected using composite video, and (likely irrelevant) both were video game systems. Since connecting directly to the TV solved the problem in both cases it clearly seems to be the 1070.

Has anyone else had any problems of this type to date? If so is there any convenient workaround (i.e. going directly into the TV is not an option)? If not, is this something the Outlaws could get working on? I can understand it might be hard to replicate, but there clearly seems to be something awry with the video processing.

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#72231 - 08/25/06 07:23 AM Re: Vertical hold issue
Laventura Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 195
Loc: Montréal,PQ
Hi Belgand,
I'm not sure that your problem is solely the 1070...
the only time I had video problems with mine wires were the guilty party...
I do not have a playstation...but I do have a gamecube hooked in composite and component to my 1070...I also do not have the zelda special edition you mention...but I do have two Zelda games for the gamecube...''Wind waker'' and ''Ocarina of time Master Quest''...and as far as I know neither...or any other game on the gamecube for that matter, have given me (I should say my son ) any problems except the obvious limitations...
( I personnaly find the video quality of the gamecube questionable on large displays even with a progressive signal)...

All this to say...maybe your problem is WIRE related... wink
or
Have you done the upgraded firmware ''thingy''
on your 1070 ?
hopefully you'll find the guilty party soon...
Good luck !
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#72232 - 08/25/06 07:34 AM Re: Vertical hold issue
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
I haven't heard of anybody else running into this problem, and my various dealings with video switching hasn't yielded anything similar either. It's odd that it only affects certain games (and even odder that it affects certain games on different consoles). I don't believe that Outlaw's working on it currently, but you might give them a call or open a support ticket to see if they can help work it out.

One thing that occurs to me is to try an s-video cable from each console (or even component, although the GameCube component output was apparently dropped and of course you may already have all of your component inputs hooked up to things). It doesn't address whatever oddness is going on with the composite input, but it would probably give you somewhat better video quality and would be an interesting test to see if it still yields any vertical hold problems.
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#72233 - 08/25/06 12:40 PM Re: Vertical hold issue
Belgand Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 08/23/05
Posts: 59
Loc: San Francisco, CA
I've wanted to move to component inputs, but availability and expense have been the mitigating factors so far.

To me the most unusual part is that it didn't just affect different games on different consoles, but that it only affected certain parts of them. Trying to play The Legend of Zelda I or II on the Collector's Disc would trigger the problem, but playing Ocarina of Time on the same disc was problem-free.

That's honestly why I originally assumed it must just be a problem with the software or the disc itself. Perhaps the NES emulator being used was the issue. But then when I tried playing Ico and I had the same problems in the opneing cinematics (except for one), the title screen, and in-game it seemed that something else had to be going on.

I'm likely going to call in for support today, but , at the very least, it's probably a good idea to solicit information on other cases here and get everything down in an easily-readable format.

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#72234 - 08/25/06 12:50 PM Re: Vertical hold issue
Belgand Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 08/23/05
Posts: 59
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Cables have also been more or less ruled out as the issue for a number of reasons.

First, the problem only occurs on specific parts of specific software. A cable issue would most likely be continuous. I've tested about 20 or so titles on the Gamecube and about 10 on the Playstation and these were the only two that gave it problems and even then, there were particular parts that didn't have the problem.

Second, removing the Playstation cable from the 1070 and connecting it directly to the TV's inputs removed the problem. Going back to the 1070 the problem resumed.

Third, the chances of identical failure on two completely different cables seems very unlikely to me. I have two sets of cable for the Gamecube (since Nintendo uses the same format for SNES and Gamecube) and while the problem alleviated when I switched cables and plugged it directly into the TV, when I then used that same cable and plugged it into the 1070 to confirm that the problem still existed, it still did even with a different cable.

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#72235 - 08/25/06 01:13 PM Re: Vertical hold issue
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
I agree that cables don't seem to be a factor. It'd be curious to hear from anybody else with either of those games and a 1070 or 970 - both to find out if the vertical hold problem can be reproduced with composite video connections that are then transcoded to component and if the problem appears using s-video or component video connections.

Another curious thought: does the 1070's composite video monitor output exhibit the rolling as well, or is it just the transcoded component output? That could be a useful bit of diagnostic information.
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#72236 - 08/25/06 03:06 PM Re: Vertical hold issue
Belgand Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 08/23/05
Posts: 59
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Yeah, I've been meaning to check with the composite output, but honestly, I never bothered to hook it up ("Everything's transcoded to component as it is, why use it another input on the TV for lower quality", I thought when setting it up) and considering the huge pain in the ass that it is to wrest the 1070 out of my rack and get access to the back of it (which basically requires unplugging everything just to get it out all the way) I haven't checked yet. I'll see if there's a way I can easily get into it and check for results shortly.

I suspect that recreating it is going to be a bit of a problem for anyone else. While Ico is generally available it's still an out of print game. The Zelda Collector's Edition, however, was a one-shot promo title and typically sells for around $40-50 if you can find it in shops.

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#72237 - 08/25/06 03:09 PM Re: Vertical hold issue
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
I know how it is to try to add cables - definitely no fun. In my case, the TV is the biggest headache (32" CRT HDTV, weighs something like 150 pounds)...
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#72238 - 08/25/06 03:59 PM Re: Vertical hold issue
Belgand Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 08/23/05
Posts: 59
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Yow!

Thankfully it was less of a PITA than I recall it being in the past. Which is nice to know since I have a new center channel on its way right now.

Anyhow, I tried running composite video from the monitor out jack on the 1070 to the TV (again, the front inputs that work without problems when the devices are connected directly) and the same problem occured.

Something interesting I noticed while working on all of this is that when the scrolling takes over it doesn't just affect the game, if I pull up the OSD menu it will scroll along at the same rate. I guess it makes sense since the OSD is just processed onto the normal signal, but it would seem to further indicate that the 1070 and it's processing is the source of the error as I suspect that if it was just a bad disc or such the game would scroll, but the OSD would not.

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#72239 - 08/25/06 04:10 PM Re: Vertical hold issue
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Yeah, I agree - something is causing the 1070 to have a problem with the source signal. Is the scrolling slow enough to see if the OSD is being overlayed onto the source before the vertical hold is lost, or are the OSD and source both scrolling separately? I'm guessing from your description that it's the former, which may help Outlaw figure out where in the video signal path things are going awry.

Another question: is the video input set to "Composite" or "Auto" in the 1070's menus? You might try changing that setting to see if that makes any difference.
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