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#71459 - 10/08/05 06:40 PM Re: 1070 review
vicikid Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 13
Loc: Loveland, Ohio
My speakers are 88/6ohms, 91/4ohms and 89/6ohms respectively (L/R, C, Surr). It does take some power to get them going. When listening to some CDs today via my DVD player (CD player is on the fritz) and its optical output, I was able to get some pretty significant volume levels... but playing music videos on some of the DVDs I have, even pushed to the max, I couldn't get that bleeding edge I was looking for. My choice in speakers is definitely going to be a factor in my receiver purchase when power comes into play... and all I can do is listen to them and pick what works best for my setup.

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#71460 - 10/10/05 01:57 PM Re: 1070 review
charlie Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 1176
Quote:
Originally posted by Smitty:
I don't think it's really a "problem" so much as a power limitation of a 60w x 7 receiver.
Oh man.

A very inefficient speaker will convert 1 watt of power into about 85 decibels at 1 meter. 10 watts per channel should be way over reference level in any reasonable sized room.

It's about gain, not available output.

And sure, I like power too. But it's more about play time than real listening. I mean, I own 4 Carver m1.5t amplifiers among other things. Power is fun, and it sells I suppose, but let's convert it to dbWatts:

1 watt = 1 db watt
10 watts = 10 db watts
35 watts = 15 db watts
65 watts = 18 db watts
100 watts = 20 db watts.
125 watts = 21 db watts

http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/dbw.htm

Those are very rough approximations, but they're close enough to show the point - after 50 watts or so diminishing returns set in with a vengeance.
_________________________
Charlie

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#71461 - 10/10/05 03:02 PM Re: 1070 review
bestbang4thebuck Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 668
Loc: Maryland
While there is no easy way to tell, it would be interesting to know just how much output you have at a given volume setting with particular source material. Not that the number really matters in the end, but rather does the 1070 give a particular person what they seek?

In my case, I have loudspeakers considered inefficient, middle 80’s dB for 1 watt. As such I took the leap to a 770 amplifier and have not been disappointed. My medium room can get near painfully loud without reaching the amplifier’s limits. Would I have chosen the extra expense of a 770 if my speakers averaged about 90dB for one watt? Not likely. If 5 dB is a power factor of about 3.2, then 6.5 watts average/65 watts peak into speakers with a 90dB sensitivity rating is about the same loudness as 21 watts average/210 watts peak into speakers with an 85dB sensitivity rating. Then one has to factor in whether the room is rather “live” or “dead” acoustically – “dead” meaning that air borne vibrations are quickly “killed” or damped by surfaces in the room. This can easily make a five or six decibel difference also.

Again, the numbers can tell a story, but the user has to decide suitability.

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#71462 - 10/10/05 03:22 PM Re: 1070 review
T-Bone Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 09/04/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Central Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by vicikid:
My speakers are 88/6ohms, 91/4ohms and 89/6ohms respectively (L/R, C, Surr). It does take some power to get them going. When listening to some CDs today via my DVD player (CD player is on the fritz) and its optical output, I was able to get some pretty significant volume levels... but playing music videos on some of the DVDs I have, even pushed to the max, I couldn't get that bleeding edge I was looking for. My choice in speakers is definitely going to be a factor in my receiver purchase when power comes into play... and all I can do is listen to them and pick what works best for my setup.
That is surprising that you have issues driving those speakers. I have Rocket Package #3, so my sensitivities/ohms are similar to yours. I drove my speakers with the Pioneer 1015,and with an Onkyo 702. Never had a problem getting them loud.

According to the SPL calculator, I need just 85 watts across all 5 speakers to play 90 dB... 340W for 96 dB. I usually watch movies at 70 dB (with 90 dB peaks) and had it as loud as 75 dB, (with 95 dB peaks). The 702, 1015, and 1070 are capable of 340W with 5 channels driven.

So I wonder what the issue is...

-T

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#71463 - 10/10/05 03:39 PM Re: 1070 review
The Hun Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/14/03
Posts: 59
Loc: Riverside
Quote:
A true 100 wpc receiver can get about 2 decibels louder than a true 65 wpc receiver
That's 2 db per channel, but it is still miniscule IMO.

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#71464 - 10/10/05 03:58 PM Re: 1070 review
charlie Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 1176
Well, it's just like charging $0.99 instead of $1 .....

For marketing to people who don't understand, or even to people who do understand and let their limbic system help too much with the decision making, it matters. But in reality, for most systems, it's pretty much academic.

But then, I think we all choose some things by emotion once in a while.
_________________________
Charlie

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#71465 - 10/10/05 10:19 PM Re: 1070 review
vicikid Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 13
Loc: Loveland, Ohio
T-Bone,

Not sure... I'm going to switch the unit to 8ohms instead of 4 per instructions from Outlaw based on the amount of ventilation I have for the 1070. Even though I used the SPL meter to adjust the system with the reference tones, I didn't have it out during my subjective listening. Guess I'll do that this time to get some better information. However, I know that in my listening position, I can play the music videos on both "A Walk to Remember" and "SpiderMan" at full volume with the 1070... but can only get to about -15 on my Yamaha RX-V630 (75Wx6 - which maxes out at 0) and the Yamaha is noticeably louder... and the clarity, imaging, etc. is equal - so I'm not pushing the Yamaha to distortion to get "loudness." I also watched Jurassic Park with both receivers and to get what I would call "reference level" (again, no SPL to confirm - shame on me) with the 1070... I had the volume at -2 to +1 (in that range) and noticed some harshness to the voices - perhaps due to the high volume level... yet was able to stay at -15 on the 630 with no discernable harshness and equal if not greater volume level in the room.

I've double & triple checked all the settings for input trim (set to 0), channel trim (bumped per previous notes to get my reference tones to about 73dB at 0 volume), surround mode, bass & treble trim (both at 0)... I've used the same player, with the same optical interface and the same DVDs for my tests... the mystery continues.

Walter

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#71466 - 10/11/05 03:10 PM Re: 1070 review
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Secrets posted an interesting update to their review yesterday, with a revamped form of their surround processor/receiver benchmark (on page 2 of the review). This new form is a bit more practical, I think.
_________________________
gonk
HT Basics | HDMI FAQ | Pics | Remote Files | Art Show
Reviews: Index | 990 | speakers | BDP-93

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#71467 - 10/11/05 03:32 PM Re: 1070 review
Smitty Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally posted by charlie:
A very inefficient speaker will convert 1 watt of power into about 85 decibels at 1 meter. 10 watts per channel should be way over reference level in any reasonable sized room.
Sure, if you sit 1 meter away from your speakers laugh

For a few more theoretical numbers try this calculator instead, it's more fun: Peak SPL Calculator

It would be interesting to know what the power rating of the 1070 on a 4ohm load with the 4/8ohm switch in the 8ohm position is.

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#71468 - 10/11/05 04:14 PM Re: 1070 review
Smitty Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 16
Is it just me, or did anybody else find this review somewhat confusing (from gonk's link above):
Quote:
...so 65 watts does produce a decent SPL, even on my demanding ribbons.
In any case, the receiver was plenty for the Paradigms and Monitor Audios.
Oh...maybe 65 Outlaw watts are plenty.

Quote:
As I said, 65 watts will still produce a reasonable volume. For two channel listening, just use efficient speakers, at least 90 dB/w/m. For surround sound listening, when you have 60 watts being delivered to each of seven channels, it will be plenty loud. But, this receiver will work best in small home theater rooms.
Huh?!?!

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