#71254 - 09/08/05 06:35 PM
This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Gunslinger
Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 49
Loc: Minnesota
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So I'll be be listening to music or watching a movie and want to check the channel level calibration. So I start the test tones and whip out my RS SPL and turn up the volume on the 1070 until I can actually measure something with the SPL. I turn up the volume until I am at 65 Dbs on the SPL, I fiddle around a little bit and then exit calibration (forgetting to turn the volume back down) and the volume blasts at me at a painful level because the volume on the 1070 was actually at +10, the highest it will go. So a +10 volume setting is needed to get a 65 db test tone? This just doesn't seem right. The test tones just seem so out of whack with the actual SPL when playing music or movies. I have my channel levels set to pretty much plus or minus one. Am I missing something here?
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#71256 - 09/08/05 06:54 PM
Re: This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Gunslinger
Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 49
Loc: Minnesota
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I am trying that, be back in few minutes...
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#71257 - 09/08/05 07:06 PM
Re: This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Gunslinger
Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 49
Loc: Minnesota
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Ok, master volume set to 0, using the 7.1 inputs with the fixed 80 hz bypass, I must increase the front left channel to +10 to get a reading of 65 db on the SPL. My speakers are quite efficient Polk RTi's 91 db efficientcy. I am measuring at 8 feet from the speaker. Here's the interesting part, when I switch to optical DVD input using dolby digital, the test tone is measured at 75 db with the same +10 channel level and master volume set to 0.
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#71258 - 09/08/05 07:22 PM
Re: This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Gunslinger
Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 104
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What are you using for a test tone? Does the DVD player have built in tones, or are you using a test disc?
Actually, wait. If you're using the 7.1 inputs, I believe you have to use the DVD player's calibration settings, and not the receiver. Since everything is kept in the analog stage, all of the calibration is taken care of by the DVD player.
I could be wrong about this, but I'm not sure. Also, I'm not sure how you're doing this, but if you're using the DVD player's test tones, you might want to try a calibration disc.
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#71259 - 09/08/05 07:25 PM
Re: This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Gunslinger
Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 49
Loc: Minnesota
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Here's more info. Without the +10 channel increase and master volume set to zero, the SPL will read 55 dbs for all channels expect for the sub which will read 65 dbs. Now, when I switch to optical input using dolby digital, without the +10 channel increase, all channels including the sub will read 65 db.
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#71260 - 09/08/05 07:49 PM
Re: This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Gunslinger
Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 49
Loc: Minnesota
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I tried the other 7.1 bass management modes as well and found that the tets tones using the two bypass modes are both about 10 db low on all channels except for the sub compared to the optical input. The "digital" 7.1 mode is measured at the same SPL level as the optical input on all channels including the sub.
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#71261 - 09/08/05 07:54 PM
Re: This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Gunslinger
Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 49
Loc: Minnesota
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Jhoff80,
I am using the 1070's test tones. You bring up an interesting point, since I am using the 7.1 inputs in a bypass mode, maybe I can't use the internal 1070 test tones to measure anything. I just though it was interesting that depending on the input mode selected on the 1070 that it would play the test tones at different levels.
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#71262 - 09/08/05 08:41 PM
Re: This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Gunslinger
Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 104
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I used Avia to calibrate, but I'm also using the digital crossover for the 7.1 inputs, so maybe thats why I didn't see an issue. Maybe see if your DVD player might have test tones within its menus, and see if that gives the same results.
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#71263 - 09/08/05 11:07 PM
Re: This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Desperado
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
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If you are using the internal test tones, the active input and bass management options should not have any effect on the output levels from the test tones. If you are encountering a difference, then I have to say that I'm stumped (speaking as someone without a 1070 in hand to experiment with). Don't be afraid to make use of the Outlaws, though - you can call them or fire off a question to the online support site .
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#71264 - 09/09/05 05:29 PM
Re: This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Gunslinger
Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 49
Loc: Minnesota
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I talked with Steve at Outlaw and he said he would ask the engineers why the 7.1 analog input channel test tone levels (except for sub) might be lower than the optical dolby inputs. He thought that the test tones may only apply to the digital inputs since the analog inputs take a different path through the unit.
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#71265 - 09/13/05 04:18 PM
Re: This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Gunslinger
Registered: 08/23/05
Posts: 59
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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I've been having similar problems while calibrating my speakers. Again my situation is even pretty similar I'm using Axiom M3Tis ( http://www.axiomaudio.com/m3ti_main.html#) as my mains and some crappy speakers that came with an old Aiwa shelf system rigged up as surrounds. All speakers are a direct 8 feet from the listening position and the room is rather small (11'x18'x8', WxLxH, with the listening postion along the longer wall). Still it requires that I pump the speakers up to +9dB or +10dB to make 75dB at reference level on a properly set SPL meter. Using DVE my mains fall about a dB or so short. This tends to be same whether I'm using DVE (connected over the digital coax input) or with the internal test tones although the internal tones tend to be just a few dB higher.
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#71266 - 09/14/05 09:39 AM
Re: This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Gunslinger
Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 203
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#71267 - 09/14/05 10:03 AM
Re: This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Desperado
Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 673
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Hello All,
When performing the calibration and the multi-channel inputs are selected as your source, be sure to engage the bass management switch in the "digital" position. This will bring the test tone level up to normal levels for all speakers. You will want to do this regardless of whether you are using the internal test tones or a calibration disk like Avia.
Scott
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#71268 - 09/14/05 11:52 AM
Re: This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Gunslinger
Registered: 08/23/05
Posts: 59
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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Bass management is set to "digital" in my case and I'm not using the multi-channel inputs for my sourcing, but rather the digital coax. I've also checked and none of my sources are trimmed down... though I personally wish that I could trim up one of my sources, analog audio from the TiVo is about 6-10 dB softer than the other sources and trimming them down just seems... wrong.
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#71269 - 09/14/05 12:33 PM
Re: This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Desperado
Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 673
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Belgand,
I may be mistaken here, but I believe we're discussing two entirely separate issues. The issue I discussed above only addresses the test tone output levels.
What you appear to be discussing is a lower output level on your Tivo relative to your other sources. Please contact myself or Steve and let us know what TIVO box you are using. There may be an output level setting in its setup.
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#71270 - 09/14/05 03:53 PM
Re: This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Deputy Gunslinger
Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 2
Loc: California
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Maybe this from the Radio Shack website helps : Maybe you already know how powerful a tool a simple Radio Shack Sound Pressure Meter is. If you use some of the popular test disks out there to check your room response there are some things you need to know about the meter. Some of these disks, like the popular "Autosound 2000 Bass CD #101", have sweeps or even chapter stops that show how even (or not) the response of your system is down low, below 20Hz even.
The problem? The Radio Shack sound meter is not totally "linear" in its accuracy down there. All such meters are off by the same amount depending on the frequency however, which is good news! So that while its sensitivity below 20Hz is not what it is at 50Hz, there is a simple way to compensate for this deficiency. It's called a compensation chart. Using one is very simple, and a pencil and paper is all you need.
Simply look to the below frequencies and add the required decibels (dBs) at the frequency in question. So if your system seems to be measuring 70dBs with a 20Hz tone, then really it's putting out 77.5dBs. This is a VERY substantial difference, roughly TWICE the acoustical energy, requiring many times the amplifier to achieve. You can see then how critical the below chart is if you are using an equalizer to even out room response of your bass. Maybe you are not bothered by any such variances, but if you are desirous of getting the most from your system it's something well worth investigating. Adding a simple equalizer like the ART 351 or the more complex and powerful Rane PE17 allow you the flexibility to affect your system response in the low bass regions easily.
NOTE: Using sine waves at high SPLs can easily damage any subwoofer given their extreme stress on woofer voice coils. Use only a few seconds for any given tone during measurements, allow a minute or so in between frequencies, and keep actual SPL's low, in the 75-85dB range. Contact SVS if you have questions about room response measurements or proper use of sine waves in this process.
So find out what your subwoofer(s) are REALLY doing, and add the following numbers as appropriate to your SPL meter readings:
At 10Hz add 20dBs to the meter's readings and at ...
12Hz add 16.5dB
16Hz add 11.5dB
20Hz add 7.5dB
25Hz add 5dB
31.5Hz add 3dB
40Hz add 2.5dB
50Hz add 1.5dB
63Hz add 1.5dB
80Hz add 1.5dB
100Hz add 2dB
125Hz add .5dB
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#71271 - 09/14/05 04:41 PM
Re: This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Gunslinger
Registered: 08/23/05
Posts: 59
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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Oh no, it's my own fault for going off on a vaguely related tangent  My main concern is still that using the internal test tones my 1070 requires almost +9dB to drive my reasonably efficient bookshelves (M3Ti) into 75 dB when set at reference level. Using Digital Video Essentials through the digital coax connection I find that I can't reach 75dB even when I trim up to +10dB (I'm about 1 dB short). The TiVo issue is completely unrelated and I've already checked all of the TiVo menus and have been unable to find anything to increase it's volume. I was simply stating that it would have been nice if I could apply a postive trim to a particular input rather than only the -6dB and -12 dB. This is something I'm willing to just accept. As far as having so much trouble getting my speakers calibrated to the test tone (as I stated they just barely won't calibrate to DVE) I'm kind of perplexed. These shouldn't be very hard to drive. I'm using them in a relatively small room and the distance from the speakers is only 8 feet. I've tried the internal test tones and DVE for test tones so it doesn't appear to be a problem with the tones. The speakers are hooked up with an otherwise normal length of Home Depot 14 AWG speaker cable. The master volume is at 0.0 dB reference level when I'm testing, but for some reason they just need a lot more power than they reasonably should.
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#71272 - 09/14/05 05:35 PM
Re: This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Desperado
Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 673
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Belgand,
Give myself or Steve a call, we'll get you through the calibration.
Best,
Scott
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#71273 - 09/14/05 06:21 PM
Re: This is driving me nuts with the 1070!
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Gunslinger
Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 35
Loc: Illinois
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Belgand,
I have the same issue with my Motorola DCt-6208. The levels are so far down in the dirt that I can turn the volume up all the way and only be at a moderate level of volume. I notice this mainly on the digital music channelsand a couple of the HDTV channels. I think it was a major cause of my low end issues in the beginning of owning to 1070. I'm not sure there's much I can do about it. There is now an upgrade to the 6412 so wonde if that would make a difference.
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