I am looking to replace my front mains sometime in the next year. I just ordered a "755 amp" and will be using the preouts on a HK AVR85 to feed it. My use is about 50/50
music/HT. My music listening is mostly rock although I listen to country and bluegrass.
I am using Bose 501's and 601's for mains now stacked and being fed by splitting the preout from one into two and using four channels of a Carver AV405 to run the mains.
I plan on removing the Carver when I hook up the 755. I am using an NHT Sub two for the very low end,(crossed over at about 50HZ).
I am using Wharfdale Diamond Sevens for rear surrounds using the HK AVR85 to power them.
I am thinking of Klipsch RF7's or B&W 603S3 or B&W CDM 7NT's. What would be some other comparable speakers for output and price?
I am one of those who prefers larger speakers as oppsoed to smaller ones for fronts.
Also: Center- Infinity IL36c



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Richard Nash

Well, Gonk and myself SWEAR by our Paridigms. Given that you are looking ath the B&W 603's i'ld strongly reccomend checking out the Monitor 11's. I got mine for a well under the $900 mark. They've been on proud display in my home for close to a year, and I must say that they continue to impress everyone who hears them.

Gonk is using a Paridigm Studio setup, which is a little more pricey...but they are an absolutly WONDERFULL line of speakers.

Check em out. Of course it depends on what your ears like, but I'm a firm believer in the quality and sound that they give me. After spending the better part of a year speaker shopping...and checking out every thing from the Cerwin Vegas at best buy-(I was young and new nothing), to just about everything in my local boutique shops (see...I got smarter) the Paridigms got my vote and my moolah. (Also listend to Yamaha, Sony, PSB, JBL, B&W, Boston, Infinity, Cambridge, hmmm others in there that I cant remember.) Bottom line is I did a WHOLE LOT of listening on my days off, and I kept comming back to the digm's.

Jason

I've been hooked on DIY speakers since I built a center channel after I bought my Outlaw. My latest project were the DIY clones of the Proac Response 2.5. These are towers about 40" tall by 9" x 10", higher when I put the spikes on.

The voicing of these speakers is unreal (or should I say completely real), incredibly natural and detailed. Female voices are in the room. Every pluck of the bass is clear and distinct. Instruments occupy a place in the soundstage and stay there. Every flaw is exposed. The bass goes down to 28hz, frequency response is flat all the way up and down. Because the bass goes so low, I don't use my sub for music, as the speakers bass is seamless, with no xover to contend with.

When I saw the Diana Krall Live in Paris DVD, every player was exactly where I heard them on the CD. Front to back spacing was correct. All this powered by a 1050. I can only imagine what a truly high-end amp/pre-amp combo would sound like. I started down the path to tubes by building a Foreplay pre-amp.

I built these from scratch, buying the parts from Madisound, the MDF for the cabinet in 4x8 sheets from a lumber yard. My wife bought the stuffing on one of her trips to a fabric store. Many trips to Home Depot. Built the crossover myself, assembled it all myself. Learned to solder. Learned how to use a router. I still need to apply veneer to finish them, but that will wait until spring when i can work outdoors again.

When its all done, I can look at them and see my own handiwork. I was in a high-end store, where the salesman had his nose up in the air, when I saw speakers with the same drivers. I asked him how much, he said $4000 and I laughed. I spent about $700 on mine and they sound better, much better. It really isn't that hard to do. Check out this website: http://www.geocities.com/diyproac25

Also check out the Madisound forum http://www.madisound.com/ and click on the forum page.

I like some of the other Outlaws am running Paradigms. I have the Monitor 7's and the Studio Center as 99% of the time I watch DVD's. I Love these speakers. I plan on buying the Paradigm ADP-370 for surrounds some time this year to replace the Optimus Pro LX5 that I am using now.

As it was stated already you have to take some music and DVD's with you and see what sounds good to you.

Mike

Hey Warpdriver....

I'm courious of what you think about the new design to the ADP 370's. When I was auditioning surrounds I wound up going with the Monitor 3's. I liked a more direct sound when listening to DVD-A (which I fell in love with after hearing Beethoven's 4th on a WB label). The 370 v2 were a dipole with the drivers at a right angle to the wall. This was great for movies, but a little lacking in the 5.1 channel sound. The new ones are at a 45 deg. angle to the wall. Which may give a little more clarity to the surrounds in DVD-A recordings.

Just courious as to you take on the design, and if you've done any A and B test between the Dipole and Bipole speakers.

Jason

Thanks for the input. I have searched around on the internet for info on the products mentioned in the replies and found substantial amounts of data. Unfortunatly, the B&W and Paradigms are not available through the internet and can only be purchased from "authorized dealers," as new products. I am afraid that I cannot support that type of business practice for a entertainment product. It's just a personal choice. Please continue to send personal recomendations, my search is far from over t and may be interrupted by a hopefully short trip to the Persian Gulf.
Richard

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Richard Nash

My system consists of primarily NHT.
2.5i, mains biamplified
1.5, surrounds
Audio Center-1, front and rear center
Sub Twoi, Front sub
Polk PSW650, Rear sub

I have nothing but praise for the sound quality of NHT speakers. Very detailed and open sounding but also very inefficent. (86db with 6 ohm imp)
Driving these speakers pushed me to upgrade to the 950/770 combo. So far I am loving the sound of the combo especially compared to the Yamaha receiver that previously held the position. I have listened to some of the other brands posted here (Paradigm, B&W, etc.)and thought they also sounded very nice. I tend to think the speakers color the sound more than any other piece of equipment, so when comparing brands or even different models within a brand you must listen to them. I have friend who thinks his Bose cubes are the geatest sounding things (ouch). Just proves the point.

I was on the phone with my sister today, and she said her husband, my brother-in-law, was on his way to the Bose store to buy speakers. I told her to stop him because of how bad they were. She got off the phone to call him. I hope she got to him in time, and he wasn't so committed that he bought them anyway. He wanted small, but his room is huge. I guess he'll learn the hard way that 2" cones can't fill a room with sound, even with a "bass module".

I'm surprised he was even thinking that. He has heard some of my DIY speakers. He's also heard my B&W 303s and couldn't believe how little they cost.

fmcorps,

I have not seen the new ADP370's yet. I will be mounting the speakers on the wall behind my couch since I can not mount them on side walls. Since my main thing is HT I guess that is why I am going more with the dipole or bipole. When I do get ready to purchase them though I will take a look at the monitor 3's. If I like the sound of them better then I can always build some stands and angle them toward the couch.

Mike

A couple of good online source that I have used for speaker purchases.
http://www.accessories4less.com - Factory online discontinued-closeout dealer for Accoustic Research speakers / I bought brand new AR-11's $379.oo pair + shipping / retail 1000.oo pair / 5 yr wty on all drivers - 1 year wty on built in subwoofer amps when applicable.
Other AR models are also available at considerable discounts = 40-50% off retail. A4L's prices can vary day to day, the AR-11 speakers have run as high as 450.00 pr and as low as 349.00 pr.

Another online dealer to check out with a good assortment of mid-to-upper line speakers.
http://www.acousticsounddesign.com
Quite simply - Great prices and service! I picked up a pair of Polk Lsi-9's for 660.oo shipped vs 1100.oo retail. ASD may be a grey market dealer, But I figured most speakers are generally pretty reliable, unless you blow them up by playing your system at rock concert levels of volume
Typical - good online return - restocking fee policies, Full 30 day vs 14 day defective exchange - ASD indicates they will act as wty repairer for length of mfrs. wty's. Execelent communication via e-mail (UPS tracking number and order status inquiries) Phone calls answered by live bodies, and questions are answered. My second order took a few weeks to deliver (new product on market) but I was not billed until it was shipped. BTW A4L's prices on the AR speakers are still better than ASD, But ASD carries a better selection of AR models and other brands.
My .02 cents worth


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My train wreck
My modest HT . .

I guess I look at it differently. While there IS some...er...corporate...er...protection, (all right, good old boys network.) Most of the sterio dealers in my area have been VERY good with "cutting me a deal". We have the information on the web for what people across the nation pay, and can often use that to our leverage. If someone is trying to get full MSP for something, go to audio review, see what seems to be the going rate, and feel free to haggle.

To me, personaly I'ld rather see my local shop get my cash and business, then sending it to a "big name" dealer (circut city, best buy) or to Wal-Mart...who's sole goal seems to be cutting out local businesses by extreme price cutting. I'm also a little leary of online businesses. Some are quite solid, some are shady.

Case in point. When I was first looking at speakers I was rather impressed with the JBL studio series, and originaly wanted to pick up a set of JBL S314. Best buy was asking $1,400 for the pair. However I found them online through various places for $800 a pair. However, after listening to them, and them listening to the Paridigms...well lets say I wound up spending tacking on an extra six months on my hunt for "THE" speakers for my system.

Yes, the big names can gouge, but like I said...I'm willing to keep my local boys in business...especially when they seem to be in line with the "competitive" prices that I find on the web.

My 2 cents.

Jason

zacster
I also am a big believer in diy speakers. They can be a great value. I currently have the ARdiy.com (Ed Frias) design speaker and am totally thrilled with them. They weigh about 35# each (only 13.5"x9.25"x10.25") and are solid (1"MDF with 1/4" baltic birch veneer). The total cost of these were about $475 CAD a pair. I have 3 of them upfront. Will eventually build 3 more for the back. I also have a diy Tempest Octagon sealed sub. In SACD the total sound package is wonderful. I'm beginning to appreciate more and more the artistry of a good surround mix music in hi-rez.
I suppose the point of all this is that not everyone is comfortable with a diy project. But if they are willing to try there are some wonderful kits on the internet. No need to do speaker measurements, cross-over design etc.
Happy listening.

I checked the Madisound kits for my brother-in-law, and he could have something built in a couple of evenings, as could anyone else, and have better and cheaper than commercial speakers, and much better than blose. It is hard though to take the chance and buy and build something you've never had a chance to hear. I had the cabinets all built before I bit the bullet and ordered the components, and even then I had some reservations. I must have read every message on the Madisound board 3 times before I felt like it was the right decision. And now that they are built there is no question.

BTW, my clones weigh over 50 pounds each.

Has anyone heard Klipsh RF-7's or done any A/B comparisons with RF7's and any of the speakers mentioned in the previous post. I haven't found a lot of post about RF7's on message boards but there seems to be some info on "audioreview.com."

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Richard Nash

[This message has been edited by gwhunran (edited January 05, 2003).]

AudioReview.com tends to be a good starting point for opinions on products but is skewed since everyone thinks they bought the best thing since sliced bread was invented

Another source that is buried in the audioreview web site . . .
This link is usefull for finding online audio magazine reviews by profesionals of many brands speakers. You can use the search function to find Klipsch RF-7 reviews.

http://www.ecoustics.com/Home/Home_Audio/Speakers/Speakers_Reviews/

http://www.ecoustics.com/Home/Home_Audio/Speakers/Speakers_Reviews/ [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks Steve C, for this website. Found some good reviews, although some were a liitle dated.
DmC

Hey, I though the Paridigm speakers that I bought WERE the best thing since sliced bread.

(pulling out the asbestos suit in anticipation of the flames)

Jason

[This message has been edited by fmcorps (edited January 08, 2003).]

There's nothing wrong with a dated review about a speaker. As has been explored on other posts, speaker building hasn't really changed much recently.

I'll just add this also. My M&K K-5s rock!

This is true and also a seldom grasped fact for many things audio. The fact is that while technology sprints forward we will be using model '1' ears for a long time. The snake oil sellers and less honest of the high-end makers hate to see this but it's just the way it is and the audible 'gap' from top to bottom gear is only going to narrow. Kudos to Outlaw for being willing to poineer a different track to success.

There's lots of room to improve, but most manufacturers aren't in the space that can use the most work. By that I mean the first and last mile so to speak. The really tough part is to (1) take an audio event in its' nearly infinite complexity, and encode that somehow, then (2) recreate that event in your listening space. This is a truly herculean task. The stuff between involves voltmeters and bits and is relatively mystery free.

Sorry if I gave the impression there's no room for 'better', I just mean that the place that's really broken isn't what a lot of these outfits address. At least Outlaw is honest about it and gives good value.

Ah, nice and tostey. Thanks, that was a nice quick way to warm up after the little cold spell we had up here.

Jason


[This message has been edited by fmcorps (edited January 09, 2003).]

There's a pair of used Thiel CS 2.2's in walnut for $990 at a place called Audio Images in Whitehall, PA (near Allentown, PA) I have had a pair since 1992 and still love them. Mine will shortly be doing duty as the left and right channels for a home theater with, hopefully, Outlaw components very soon. If this is what you might have in mind for the price, then check them out at: http://www.audioimage.com/home.html
I liken mine to being "invisible" at the end of two speaker cables. They can be both subtle when they need to be and rock when they are cranked. Bass is tight and very accurate. Transparent as all get out and I'm still driving them with an old 1st generation Adcom GFA and GFP 555 system which is getting old. This is before product quality, reliability, and performance went to hell with shortcuts. I think that newer equipment, such as from Outlaw, will only improve the sound.

I vote for Infinity IL 50s, sound great, built like a tank, built in sub woofer, (you can connect to Sub out) on 1050

Has anyone heard Magnepan speakers? No local dealers in my area. I have seen them listed on Ebay.

Yes, they are very good planar-magnetic panel type speakers. Some people here use them I think. I don't know if they would take the abuse of home theater, but others may be able to give more specifics about this.

Yes Maggie's work well for HT use, the sweet spot being small fits in nicely for HT since you are sitting in one spot anyway. The soundstage and seperation is excellent! I think in a good room maggies can do just about anything! Although they need more than 5 watts. They tend to be hungry speakers.


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m-mmeyer
GO TWINS
My DVD's

Richard, I just joined the bulletin board, so if I do this wrong, have patience...
As to your search for new speakers, I have just listened to the Paradigm studio 100's, and the B&W CDM 9's. The paradigm's sound great, and have received every accolade known to man, but the B&W's sound even better, especially in the high end. However, if you don't want to spend two grand or more, and if you want to purchase over the internet, take a look at Axiom Audio (axiomaudio.com), a small loudspeaker manufacturer in Canada who is also receiving rave reviews for producing audiophile quality sound at below-budget prices! They have both stand-mounted monitors and larger floor-standing speakers, as well as center, surrounds and subwoofers. An entire home theater complement can be had for less than the price of either the above-mentioned Paradigms or B&W's, with little compromise in sound quality for either music or movies! I was impressed. As for me, I still have some old N.E.A.R. ME-60's whose sound I'm having a hard time duplicating for under $3,000. (The $2,600 B&W's have come the closest so far.) I want to build a complete theater with matching speakers, but sadly, N.E.A.R. no longer exists. Hence, the reason for my current speaker auditions.

Gwhunran:

Magnepans are very nice. They are (in my opinion) wonderful for voices, treble, upper midrange. Even though I'm not a big bass fan, the bass is a bit lacking and they would benefit from a sub-woofer.

Two of my friends have had magnepans (one still does, the other not). One definite caveat: these speakers do not co-exist with the average house cat, who is known to claw them. Another consideration: they are quite inefficient, need substantial power. Finally, unless things have changed dramatically (the company has been around for over 20 years and my friends bought theirs some years ago), these are LARGE speakers that need a largish room to sound their best and in particular, do not sound their best unless placed several feet out from the wall.

I'd be reluctant to buy used Magnepans unless I knew the provenance very well, they are much more sensitive to both physical and electronic abuse than more conventional designs.

Tombstone

NEAR as in New England Audio Resource?

My current system has NEAR-10M surrounds and a NEAR - JIB center. I may be replacing these in the near future. I am not familiar with the ME-60 or if you are referencing the same NEAR.

[This message has been edited by tps123 (edited January 29, 2003).]

I've got some MG-1's (from late 70's) that were in my mother-in-laws closet.. I had to rewire the trebel panel, but aside from that they're excelent speakers....

Magnepan will refurbish almost any speaker (within 15 or so years of manufacture) so if you can get a good deal on some older ones even or some with damage to the mylar this could be a good option.... You could probably even just have them shipped to Magnepan from whoever you buy them....

[This message has been edited by Unferth (edited January 23, 2003).]

Yes, we are talking about the same N.E.A.R. (my mistake: R.=Resource, not Research). The ME-60's were the largest floor standing speakers NEAR made. Same tweeter, 4.4 inch midrange, 8 inch woofer, 46 inch tall cabinet. Great sound!

I vote for the IL60's, good deal off of harmon audio refurb on ebay with 5 year warranty. The RABOS kit I ordered separtely made a world of difference in the sub output. I paid $700 for a pair of fronts that retailed for $1800 and I get two 12" 500W each powered subs that rock and roll my house, just ask my wife.

Outside of these, I would recommend the Phase Tech 9.1's or 11.5's (which have built in powered 10"ers). These speakers I auditioned at CES give my Interludes a run for the money in sound clarity and soundstage.

Both sets of speakers have a very wide coverage soundstage that is clear in any of the listening positions I auditioned.

A buddy of mine just got back from CES and was blown away by Wharfedale speakers. Has anyone experience with them?

I don't think I need mains with built in powered subs. I am running a NHT Sub Twoi, which has two 12"s supposedly powered by a 500 watts rms sunfire type amp.
I am still leaning towards Klipsch RF7's, but I have a new concern after reading another post in this forum about speaker efficiency and "too much power." The RF7 is rated at 102db and I will be powering it with the "755." Do any of you think that I would have the problem of the amp not being driven hard enough at low to medium listening levels?
Richard

There was a chart I came across once that someone had posted and it appeared to come from the Klipsch web-site. It measured speaker efficiency versus sound pressure level versus amp power required. It was pretty interesting since they way I read it, I needed 64 watts for a 90dB speaker to hit 108dB at 1meter, or 256 watts for the same to hit 114dB at 1meter. Since I have a mix of 8 ohm speakers that run from 88-91dB, I found this chart close to what I was thinking, finding an amp that would give me 200 clean current watts. That would put me not high on the dB peak scale, but more like accurate and a good full range response to all my speakers at easy listening levels. With the 770, this is what I am getting.

For your reference, the same chart lists a 102dB efficiency speaker as needing 8 watts to reach 114dB at 1 meter. You might be better off running these klispchs off just the 1050 or something like that. I have seen other posts on the internet about people using 30watts to power the woofers and then only needed 3-5 watts to power the mids and highs in these klipschs.

As to your other question, you will not hurt the amp or speakers if you matt a 200watt channel with these highly efficient speakers. As long as you don't clip the outputs, you are safe.