A friend of mine had a few days left before he had to return his 950 back to Outlaw (he bought the AT Clone and uses an Anthem Pre2L for his 2 channel listening). I thought why not? This is a good chance to try the Outlaw in my system for a couple days. I did a few comparisons the past 2 nights and one day of listening.

My system is:

Speakers:
NHT 3.3 mains
NHT Audiocenter 2
NHT 1.5 sides
NHT Superzero rears
NHT SW3P passive rear/LFE subs (2)

Equipment:
Aragon Stage One
Parasound 2200II 250x2 Amps (2)
Parasound 806 Amp (sides, rears, 1 sub)
Parasound CDC-1500 CD Carousel
Panasonic RP91 DVD

I had the Aragon Soundstage about 6 weeks before the Stage One (which is about a week old). Before the Aragon, I had the Lexicon MC1 for about 14 months, and the Onkyo 989 about 8 months before that; both excellent performers. Before the Onkyo, I had....well, let's just say my wife tells our friends that our dining room was a UPS shipping outlet for over a year I've had the Parasound amps about a year, and before that a combination of Citation 7.1/5.1 amps for ~ 2 years. Before the Citations...well, my house was a UPS shipping outlet

OUTLAW SETUP

The 950 is pretty easy to set up. Remote is not bad, it is a pain in the ass to have to switch back to the Audio input (950) after selecting other source inputs. Distance settings are too basic though: one setting for both mains, one for center, one for all four rears, and none for the sub. My four rear speakers all vary between 4 and 8 feet from me. Most of the 5.1 processors I've own (at least 10) had distance settings for each inidividual speaker. Also, Outlaw is to the nearest foot; the Lexicon MC1 was to the nearest ~ 0.3 foot, and the Aragon Stage One to the nearest inch.

DVDS (OUTLAW VS ARAGON)

The Outlaw sounded pretty good, with decent dynamics and good LFE. However, compared to the Aragon, the Outlaw sounded a little thin and was harsh at high volumes; the soundstage not as cohesive or big. The Aragon has better, more room filling bass, with superior resolution/detail and never sounded harsh. With the Aragon I notice people's breathing and lips moving. I did not notice this with the Outlaw.

2 CHANNEL (Outlaw vs Parasound CDC-1500 changer)

The Parasound has older 18bit burr-brown dacs and hooked up both digital and analog to the Outlaw. I can A/B on the fly, and made sure the first note in each track was 80dB. Using the Parasound's dacs, the soundstage is deeper, wider, with clearer female vocals.

2 CHANNEL DAC (Outlaw vs Aragon)

I hooked up my Panasonic RP91 via digital to both prepros. And inserted an analog switchbox so I can A/B on the fly (without switching cables). The difference was astonishing to me. Compared to the Aragon, the Outlaw's soundstage was narrow and not as detailed. The female vocals were centered, but seem to dominated the rest of the music. The Aragon produced a much deeper, wider soundstage with clean, rich vocals, and more prominent bass. This is more night and day than any of my previous cdp/dac tests. Perhaps because I am also comparing 2 channel preamps, and not just the dacs.

I buy most of my gear used, so I like to judge prices with used values on the market. A used Outlaw 950 is about $750, a used Stage One about $2600. To match the Aragon's 2 channel performance, one would need to add a 2 channel preamp with HT unity gain (ie, Adcom gfp750 for ~ $750) and spend $500-800 on a used dac. This wouldn't bridge the sonic differences in HT though, as the Aragon's preamp/dac extends to all 8 channels.

The Outlaw 950 is a good performer at its price point; it gives you the new surround modes and 5.1 inputs. However, for pure DVD/DSS playback, a Lexicon DC2/MC1 (going for 1200-1900 used) would beat it in surround processing, flexibility, Logic7 soundfields, and detail.

LOL, Ricky, you kill me. Thanks for the update. Rock Chalk Jayhawk.

first...there is no comparison of the 950 to the soundstage...unless you eliminate dts-es, dd-ex and use external BM on dvd-a/sacd.

the stage one, however, is a great piece of equipment. motorola 56367 dsp chipset, though a few years old, is used by anthem, b&k, meridian, cary audio...all good companies with good products.

i believe the dacs are the same crystal dacs found in the 950.

spoke with jim hunter, klipsch's chief engineer, at ces last january about the stage one and other aragon products. great guy...great company. paul klipsch was one-of-a-kind.

what about dvd-a/sacd? analog BM? if you get a chance, rick, would be cool to know how they compare.

in the end...4 gees. lesser warranty. no stage one forum. newer stuff on the horizon. it's just not that much better than the 950. gonna hang around with my 950 to see what the outlaws have cookin'.

BTW...it's great to have you here. you're a smart guy with tons of great info.

bossobass,

I tried sacd/dvd-a about 18 months ago and got out because the software selection was weak. I'll probably order some dvd-a titles this week. The Stage One's 5.1 inputs is pure, with no bass mgmt.

Klipsch.com does have a forum for their Klipsch and Aragon products.

I am not saying: go out and spend 2600-3200 on a Stage One. Just writing up an A vs B demo, which I've done many times on many different products. However, I think if one is willing to hit the used market (in the 1200-1700 range), there is gear that would provide improvement in their systems over the 950 if listening preferences are skewed. For example, if someone is mostly DVD/DSS/7channel-CDs, a bunch of used Lexicon DC2/MC1s will be hitting the market in the next few weeks with the MC8/MC12 upgrade program. And it would be dealers selling most of these traded-in units (safer to purchase from).

Or if someone wants great 2 channel via digital and analog, a used Aragon Soundstage goes for 1250-1400 (with option to send it to Klipsch for $800 full digital/7.1 upgrade). The Soundstage with the smart jr or parasound cse 6.1 devices will convert the Soundstage's excellent 5.1 into 6.1/7.1; no DPL2 or DTS-Neo though. And all prepro prices I listed will only get lower as time goes on (depreciation!).

'Cuse all the way, Baby!!

Ricky,

Outlaw has proven that they are patient and lenient to a fault in allowing posters unbridled rein but personally I have long felt that you and a few others, are taking advantage of that situation due to your stated unhappiness with Outlaw Customers and prospective Customers countless Posts which offended you, before the 950 was ever released to purchase.

I know your consuming desire and personal crusade to place the 950 in its place as regards the AV hierarchy and how cost should equate to sound. But please consider that this is an Outlaw customer’s forum. Your review of your demo of the Outlaw (borrowed) to the Aragon (which you own) is not inappropriate, and I for one am always interested in individuals tastes as relayed in Head to Head comparisons I read in general forums.
I am assuming you own at least one (an ICBM maybe? ) or intend to purchase an Outlaw product shortly?


I’m sure if you stopped to consider your collective posts recently here in the Outlaw forum and in other forums and contemplating a bit on the motivations you previously indicated are behind your stated credo that Outlaw Owners should be forced to realize that in your decided opinion the 950 could not and (should not) be the equal to any pre-pro costing 3x as much. I believe as a rational and fair-minded individual you should recall that Outlaw has asked that other products not be promoted and hawked in OUTLAW’s forum which is after all set up for the convenience of Outlaw owners. It’s rather bad cricket, in your last post on this page to suggest multiple alternatives to purchasing a 950. (Unless you’d like to take on the costs and responsibilities of this forum)
If you were unaware of the polite request to refrain from promoting competitors products in the Outlaw forum. I think it would take little insight, rather should be self-evident that the proper place to promote those items would be in their respective manufacture’s individually provided forum, or in the many general AV forums, which are available to you on the web.

A gentle reminder (I hope) for you to reflect on. I am very happy that you are enjoying your Stage One, and wish you many fine hours of listening pleasure.
Sincerely, MMS


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited April 06, 2003).]

I cant believe the last post. Talking about going to far, and to suggest Ricky wouldnt have the integrity to do a true a/b is lame. If outlaw has a problem with somebody doing a true a/b of their system and posting then let THEM say so, unbelieveable..

Anyway great review Ricky, you unlike others did a true comparison the right way. If some dont like the outcome so be it. I cant say it surprises me though espcially the two channel comparisions. As far as movies, well lets just say it would be darn hard to beat the sheer dynamics/lack of noise of the aragon (which should beat it by the way)..It sounds like the 950 is a nice unit though and definatly worth the price of admission.

It would be interesting to see if anybody has directly compared the 950 to the Sony da4es for processing only..

I'm afraid MMS is correct - Outlaw DID request that restraint be used in promoting other products on this forum, and I don't blame them. I think a more general interest forum is the place for this. Obviously the vast majority of users of this forum own Outlaw equipment. that's our choice, and if you think we're a bunch of fools for our taste in products, well you are entitled to your opinion ELSEWHERE. You are preaching to people who have voted for Outlaw equipment in the most compelling way possible - with our checkbooks. I'm sorry you can't come to grips with this seemingly illogical (in your eyes) state of affairs.

This "newbie" to the world of Outlaw find it interesting to see how the 950 is compared on this board.

First: I have yet to see an apples to apples comparison... Are there no apples for less than $1'000?

Second: When it is compared it seems to do pretty well. I am new to the world of separates and my room is an accoustic train wreck so spending an extra $2'000 to get a smidge more is just not worth it. Even the earlier post mentioning buying used still costs 25 to 50% more.

Third: Well, I do have to concede that the Outlaw unit is a bit fugly (at least what I can tell by the pictures on their web page). Mine will be sitting in a stack of other black boxes where it can't be much more ugly than the others. Really, how ugly can a black box get (well, I suppose you could put a bunch of gold trim on it).


I have yet to receive the 950 and big fat 770 that I ordered so you will all have to wait for my review. In the mean time everyone may continue to review, criticize and recommend to your hearts content. The different opinions (good/bad, right/wrong) has helped me make my choice, and in the end I put down my $2'500.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnTompkins:
[B]I cant believe the last post. Talking about going to far, and to suggest Ricky wouldnt have the integrity to do a true a/b is lame. If outlaw has a problem with somebody doing a true a/b of their system and posting then let THEM say so, unbelieveable..
___________________________________________

though it's actually pretty funny to me to watch someone burst in here to proclaim our second class preamp status, (even though the dude actually owned an onkyo receiver and admits it), i enjoy rick's posts, he has good information and he can spell. and the stage one is a very fine product.

JT, on the other hand, seems to follow 'ricky' around like some sort of head nodding cheerleader. now that rick has the stage one, jt, whatchagonnado? alas, there are no used bargains yet on the stage one. maybe rick will lend you his and you can pretend you own one. or, upgrade that dinosaur soundstage.

the info in rick's post was not much of a comarison, told almost nothing about the stage one (other than nearest inch distance settings), mentioned no software titles, no dvd-a, no sacd, no dts-cd, what kind of dacs, how the motorola dsp has been updated, no HP points, slopes, I/O info, etc., etc.

but, then again, we already know this information. i discussed pretty much everything about the stage one with klipsch's chief engineer while he gave it a fairly thorough run through. anyone who comes to this forum only needs to ask.

if you're gonna burst in and tell us something...at least use some discretion. otherwise...well...how embarassing for you.

two channel...i guess that's the cool buzz-phrase for the 16 bit stereo cd format...seems to get proportionately way too much press when 'reviewing' a multi-format, multi-channel audio/video pre-pro. you may as well have compared it to a victrola. i have a few stereo preamps a few decades old lying around that will give the stage one a run in, dare i say it???...two channel.

anyway...jt...get a 21st century pre-pro, then come back and ask us about it. if you ask nicely, we'll answer. don't come where i live, talking down, and expexct not to get slapped around.

here's my review: the 950 MUST be better, because I bought one.

I happen to own an Aragon amp (which I use for front channels with my 950) and it is superb. As a result, the Stage One is one of the few pre/pros about which I have a burning curiosity.

Nonetheless, I would be delighted to see Ricky go elsewhere to share his thoughts, perhaps another HT forum that is not product-specific. (I don't remember seeing Ricky's "A vs B demo" appearing on the Klipsch/Aragon forum. Why post on this corporate forum and not the other?)

His unsolicited, self-prompted and self-described "A vs B demo" -- which is really more like stream of consciousness notes for a proper product comparison -- just doesn't fit here.

Stepping in with this sudden whatever-he-wrote on two pre/pros at utterly different price points -- something no responsible REAL writer would ever do -- is like being a bad guest at a party who insists on donning a lampshade and yelling out his conversation topics regardless of what the rest of the guests want to discuss. It's a pretty unpleasant personality trait.

And don't think I have an axe to grind with Ricky. I'm just writing up an "A vs B demo" of appropriate and inappropriate behavior "which I've done many times on many different products."

[This message has been edited by boblinds (edited April 07, 2003).]

Ouch, Yes your right my spelling is pathetic and I dont bother to do a spellcheck, oh well..Secondly I AM an Outlaw owner (ICBM) so I voted with my pocketbook as well.

As far as getting rid of my ancient useless Soundstage goes, I have no desire to part with it at this moment but the time will come as it always does.

Following Ricky ? well we do have the same speakers/setup and Ricky is one of the few people that I trust with an informed unbiased opinion. Its not about me defending my aragon pre-pro, you can crack on it all you want, I could care less. It was the same when I had the lexicon mc-2,dc-2,h/k8000,denon 3802 etc etc.

Somebody said the review wasnt apples to apples.... well he was right and in a way I guess that IS the point, sorry you dont like the outcome.

Theres nothing else to be said here by me.To those who own the 950, you have a nice product that is a bargain at 899.00 and would be worth 300~500 more in all honesty, what else can be asked of it.




[This message has been edited by JohnTompkins (edited April 07, 2003).]

Well, this may not be the appropriate place to talk about that... But I think it is.

Sherwood Newcastle has announced that they will release a replacement for their long discontinued AV-P9080 some time in the next 6 months or so. It should have all the bells and whistles, and since the 9080 had a list price of $1199 I would expect that the price range would be about the same as the Outlaw 950.

I have a 950 and I like it a lot. I used to have a 9080 and I liked that as well (but I needed an ICBM to go with it).

------------------
Philip Hamm

Some of you have some nerve. First you talk about me without my knowledge (in the KCB at HTF thread) before I arrived. Then, had no problems debating and sorta teaming up on me in that long thread. Some had a beef with me not hearing the Outlaw in my own system. Then, I borrowed it and post this review and you want me to leave? Whatever.

I see several posts asking about how the 950 compares to other products; I'm sure these are from prospective, not current or past, 950 owners. And don't tell me this is just about Aragon. I am certainly not married to one brand, I've owned over a dozen processors and will continue to try others. Like B&K or Anthem, or perhaps one day a Theta or Meridian, or a Pioneer Elite receiver with MCACC, and on and on.

Here's what someone posted in response to my review on another forum.

"Careful Ricky, I posted some not too flattering comments about the 950 on another forum. What followed were not only posts but emails telling me I was everything from stupid to the Anti-Christ.
I had purchased one for a second system, found it unacceptable, then returned it."
Why should he get nasty emails for voicing his own opinion on a product he bought, tried in his own home, and returned? I have never heard anyone getting nasty emails from owners of any brand. Talk about unappropriate behavior!

Bossobass,
Thanks for not sharing the view that I should leave. I didn't post too many specs, because like you said, anyone can ask. If you ever want to discuss anything, feel free to call me, or you can find me on other forums.

LMAO!

Championing Ricky as unbiased is like calling the Iraqi Information Minister unbiased.

On the other hand... Oliver North... very unbiased and also "Fair and Balanced"... told me that I should use some precision guided weapons on my pathetic 950/770 Outlaw regime. I decided to go with a 10 pound sledgehammer.

Soon we will rebuild my system so that my speakers can feel the freedom that only "Fair and Balanced" equipment like yours can provide. Until then, I am sure that those Outlaws will continue to deny the cold hard facts that they have inferior systems.

Not so "Fair and Balanced", Wolf Blitzer likes my system just as it is... but what does he know?


[This message has been edited by AGAssarsson (edited April 07, 2003).]

I'm a Gunslinger now, I'm a Gunslinger, I'm a Gunslinger, and that last post was the 2000th on this 950 topic category.

Thank you. Thank you very much...

AGAssarsson has just left the building.

[This message has been edited by AGAssarsson (edited April 07, 2003).]

This must be the understatement of the century. If you really want to compare on price point, take the 950/7100 combo ($1700 new) and compare it to anything else you can find new for $1700.



For $5-6K new, one certainly hopes that the Lexicons would beat a $900 pre/pro.

And finally, while I hate to perpetuate a topic that's way past its bed time, I would like to offer a general observation related to how well the 950 competes with other pre/pros that cost 2-n times more: Outlaw offers a really great way to decide for yourself whether its fact or just marketing bulls**t -- buy it and try it. If you don't like it, Outlaw will refund the cost of the 950 AND shipping. Because of that, and notwithstanding the usefulness of sharing subjective reviews in a forum like this, it seems pointless for the "950 vs. the world" debate to rage on, fueled as it is by the angst that some have carried over from other forums and threads.

For those of you who prefer the Aragon, Lexicon, Meridian, B&K, Anthem, Theta or Pioneer processors, that's fine with me. However, please don't condescend to explain the particulars of how each unit is supposedly superior to the 950 according to your pet criteria. There are so many things that conspire to shape our perceptions of these products that it seems foolish to become tediously dogmatic in the way that we share our opinions of them.

What do I have to do to get the shipping refund? I didn't know we got that. I'm not sure I still have my receipt.

brianca..

Ricky, I bet your head is spinning. And yes you are right. You came into the Outlaw forum posting your disagreements with various Outlaw owner opinions of their 950. Since you stated you disbelieved owners who stated they preferred the 950 after comparing the 950 to other units (but not at home in their own system). It was pointed out to you during rebuttal, that you had never demeod a 950 at home in your own system. So you did, Then took flak…..very disconcerting. I’d agree.

Back to John, I am not saying that Ricky does not have integrity. Please… Rereading my post I note I did indicate that Ricky (from what he has told me) Is most definitely against the idea that any pre-pro priced less than more expensive pre-pros cannot feasible match a more expensive pre-pro therefore theoretically better built unit and set out to prove his “you get what you pay for” stance. He also has stated that he was offended by Outlaw owner’s even suggesting that it could equal a pre-pro which was 2-3 times as expensive. And that any attempt to prove this was a clear-cut case of ‘hype’. (Have I got that right Ricky?).

If Ricky is as prone to human foibles as I am. He chose to do a A/B to refute some posters who commented that he had been posting against a 950 for a year without ever demoing it in his own system….this comment was directed to him after he suggested that other posters who compared it very favorably to other units had not performed this test (950against other units) IN there own system, therefore their opinions were not valid. So he put up to shut up….very admirable that you spent more time to do this Ricky…you have stick-to-it-ness!

John, honestly yes, I do certainly feel it would be difficult for someone who was eaten up by a desire to convince others of his viewpoint since before 950’s were even available that he could 100% lay aside all closely held prejudices and pre-formed opinions during a A/B.

This does not invalidate his A/B to me I just weight it. Unlike our court system, which can often disallow pertinent information such as a client’s proclivity for repeated same offensive record being ruled inadmissible to the current jury. I do know Ricky’s and your own vocal history as regards the 950, before the product was even available. And I WILL down score his particular A/B knowing that history. My right, just as it your right to ‘trust’ his opinion.

If that stance is outrageous to you, I feel it is purely commonsense. When I first came into to Outlaw, I factored that I was in ‘home territory’ for owners and took points off of what I read while in Outlaw and additionally what I read when in Club Rotel, Argonost, even AVS if it was an owner dominated thread.
Just my method of gathering opinion and rating +/- for bias. I do this in an attempt to find a balanced middle ground between the extreme positive and negative information readily available on the web on products whenever I research a purchase.

If I felt threatened by all the owners of other products who state: “I have concluded My A sounds better than B/C/D product”, and found these opposing reviews and posts intolerable and misinformed -then I guess I’d go hang out in threads which are posted concerning the other products, to prove my B is better than their A. I don’t. I just hang out at my own campfire where I’m a happy camper, conversing with other happy and sometimes confused fellow campers and wishing the constant rain of other owners who appear very worried about the “rightness” of their own purchase when compared to mine….would let up now and then, so I can roast my marshmallow.

And John, please note. I am only commenting and do not feel ‘out of line’ at all as regards the poor judgement of coming into a Company owned forum, selling competitors products.

If I was Mac, I would not allow you to set up a HP booth in my lobby, I’d tell you to go rent your own Office space.

congrats AGAssarsson!!


PS. Same time posting very nicly stated Pleary! I'm going to 'put it to bed now' buy a raincoat, and dance down the road.



[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited April 07, 2003).]

Listen, in other forums, I don't care what is said about the 950, or how many times it is said, over, and over, and over, and over again, but this is unreal.

Ricky, I think what people are trying to say is you need to grow up. You are a grown man so act like it. You are carrying on in multiple forums like it is some personal crusade about how Outlaw is worth 900 bucks, no more. Is this what you honestly choose to do with your free time? Also, please, tell us 1764 million more times what you have owned, it never gets old reading that 2 or 3 times a day. You are on another company's forum so at least you should respect their wishes. If you were coming here to help, nobody would care, but the fact is we, and everyone else in this hobby, knows that Ricky T from Teaneck NJ is very anti Outlaw so your recommendations hold little to no weight on this matter. You claim you like to help people, but you don't come here to help the Outlaw community, you come here to put us, and every prospective 950 buyer, in their place. Get a life, grow up and get a hobby that doesn't make you so insecure, if that's possible.

And please, that review, what a joke!!! Like that wasn't predetermined. Raise your hand if anybody thought Ricky would write a positive review of the 950. How predictable. I bet you could have wrote that in a dark room without hearing either of them. Nothing you say is new, nor interesting. You don't like Outlaw, You KNOW the 950 is worth just 900-1500 dollars and the Aragon is so unbelievable because you have spent the last four years of you life demoing other processors, how pathetic. Anything else you care to add? I think that about covers it.
Hey, at least you got a blind follower and cheerleader in JT.

By the way, I once wrote that I disliked the Aragon and I got death threats from people. Oh, you want a source? Its on the Internet, just look it up.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited April 08, 2003).]

Okay I lied. shes back.

I can save our sanity. I know the way. I have come to the conclusion that the outlet audiophiles are direly lacking IS:

MONSTER AV primetime HDNET.

Whereupon “Aragon, Lexicon, Meridian, B&K, Anthem, Theta or Pioneer” are outfitted with tiny little buzz saws (and 10 pd sledgehammers) and special paint jobs and catapults via “Jessie James” custom Bike shop. And on the next AV sponsered cruise…….we all make bets….once we are in international waters of course.

quote:
At least you have a blind follower in JT

Heres a couple of cheerleading tunes you can put to music:

Ricky dont lose that "aragon".. its the only one you've got..You may use it if you feel better..when you get "the 950" home

or
Hey Ricky your so fine..your so fine you blow my mind..hey Ricky...hey Ricky

Go Ricky..its your birthday...go Ricky..its your birthday

Ok, I am convinced and have seen the light, I have learned that:
1. the 950 cant be beat by any pre-pro at any price
2.All you do get if you spend more is balanced connections and better looks
3."two channel" is just a cool buzz word
4.A/B testing on the fly is a flawed method of comparision
5. Use a spellchecker when visiting this forum.

I will try not to comment on this forum again as that point in my mind IS a valid one.There are plenty of forums were opposing views are not banned. Thanks

Bye, and "have a nice day"

Awww damn, I missed all the fun

------------------
Play it LoUd!!

I'm with you, SpOoNmAn.

For what it's worth, I've got a 950/770 combo and I love it. But, to be honest, compared to some of you, I wouldn't know a high from a low. One thing I do know, however, is that I like what I hear.

Regardless, let's not throw Ricky out with the bath water. This has been one of the most entertaining threads I've read since becoming an Outlaw.

"two channel" = 2 words.

Since your credibility is rather "shaky" these days,we can't even be sure you did borrowed it.But even if you did,it was way after you bombarded all of the familiar forums,with your anti Outlaw masseges.
Enjoy your Aragon!

I'm staying out of this, but i can assure you, Ricky does have the 950 in his system. It's my unit that he borrowed.



[This message has been edited by chris3g (edited April 08, 2003).]

I do not know why everyone is so upset with Ricky. The way I look at it, Ricky's post here is a great advertisement for the 950. Even though he has lambasted both the 950 and Outlaw as a company, Ricky obviously felt that the 950 was at least worth a comparative listen . I can see the ad now:

"Let's have Ricky listen to it"
"Yeah! Ricky hates everything Outlaw"
"Hey, Ricky"
"He likes it!"

If you're referring to me, you're wrong. My beef was not with the fact that you had not heard the Outlaw on your own system. My beef was that you insisted that we had to hear different prepros on OUR OWN SYSTEMS to make up our own minds, while you were allowed to come to your conclusions based on hearing the 950 on SOMEBODY ELSE'S system. That's called a double standard.

You write inflamatory posts on a public forum for the whole internet to read then you complain that we have "some nerve" when we comment on your posts here?

Welcome to the internet. May want to check your closet for the "big boy pants".

BTW good job getting the Outlaw 950 in your house. I hope your audition was worth the time it took to hook everything up.

------------------
Philip Hamm

[This message has been edited by Philip Hamm (edited April 08, 2003).]

for whatever my two cent opinion is worth, i agree 100% with morphsci...i take ricks review as a plug for outlaw...i am still undecided, but do want to take this opportunity to apologize for asking for comparison reviews....this forum is a great learning experience, and i thank all of you that have offered me your time and help...

Dear SLL, Soundhound & Countrymen:
and Ricky...

I have enjoyed this topic thoroughly. I have laughed out loud, often cringed, and really learned a lot about the human traits of the "audiophile community."

When I read Ricky's review of the "Outlaw 950 vs Aragon Stage One (in the house!!) I was stuck by his perception of the weaknesses of the 950. Compared to the Aragon Stage One, the 950...
1) "sounded a little thin and was harsh at high volumes; the soundstage not as cohesive or big"
2) " soundstage was narrow and not as detailed. The female vocals were centered, but seem to dominate(d) the rest of the music"

The Aragon Stage One had the following qualities by comparison...
1) " better, more room filling bass, with superior resolution/detail and never sounded harsh. With the Aragon I notice people's breathing and lips moving. I did not notice this with the Outlaw"
2) "using the Parasound's dacs, the soundstage is deeper, wider, with clearer female vocals"
3) "the Aragon produced a much deeper, wider soundstage with clean, rich vocals, and more prominent bass

Well... If I had any of these sonic shortcomings on my system, I would be devastated. Thin, harsh, narrow soundstage, shallow soundstage, lack of detail, poor rendering of female vocals... any one of these words are dynamite, but together... these are truly Weapons of Mass Destruction.

But, I don't recognize any of these devastating afflictions in my system configuration, which includes the 950. In fact, these are the very qualities that I am so impressed with... so I began to wonder why? What could possibly explain such contrasting observations of sonic quality?

Maybe, I thought, if Ricky's personal observations were indeed unbiased (as much as can be expected of any of us), there might be something other than the Pre-Pro... that these observations were made using his system, and more specifically though his speakers. And JT, does he have the same speakers? I think he does...

Of all the links in the chain of a quality audio system, I have always believed that it was the speakers (including placement and room charactersitics), the actual vocal cords of the system, that were the beginning, and the end of how every other part of a system configuration must depend. This is why I have asked Soundhound and SLL about their speakers in such detail in past topic pages.

From her posts, I know that SLL has a passion for her new Vienna Acoustics 'Beethoven's mains, and seeks to augment these with more acoustically matched speakers when she has the time and resources available. From what I remember, Soundhound has custom modified Klipsch speakers that have been an evolution of his tastes, his knowledge, and a labor of love to optimize through the use of specialty amplification and a very clear signal path. Both SLL and Soundhound selected the 950 as part of their road to sonic nirvana.

I own B&W Nautilus 803 mains and B&W CDM NT center and surrounds, featuring a metal dome tweeter design. The N803's have a very unique midrange driver (Fixed Suspension Transducer) which transitions seamlessly to the Nautilus tweeter at 4000Hz. To enhance the lowest end, I have 2 Velodyne HGS 15 Series II subwoofers. I like organ music, and the lowest pedal frequency is down at 22Hz.

Well... you can't buy this stuff on the internet, unless it is used. Through my system, Emmylou Harris' voice is beyond description, and the same goes for any number of sopranos, mezzo sopranos, or alto women's vocals I have enjoyed. These speakers are critically acclaimed for their extremely well detailed, spatial and balanced sound reproduction. The soundstage, in terms of width, depth and location, is nothing short of phenomenal. Vocals (especially women's vocals) are breathtaking.

So... how much better could it be... perhaps with an Aragon Stage One, or my preference for a Lexicon MC12 ???? I just can't say. But I can say that with the 950 in the signal path, the terms of art "thin, harsh, narrow soundstage, shallow soundstage, lack of detail, poor rendering of female vocals"... do not apply. Not in the least.

Which brings me to make a suggestion to those who seek to confirm the Outlaw 950 is the weak link in the chain. This is not meant to be cruel or judgmental, but please consider some alternative speaker configurations before you leap to these conclusions.

It is interesting to note that you can point, click and buy the latest NHT's speakers over the internet in a similar fashion that an Outlaw might order a 950. Selling products on-line doesn't mean that they are necessarily of lesser quality, but you have got to do it right. Outlaw does it right.

Finally... I must confess that I am very biased. I could not trade my B&W's for a pair of NHT's, not even if the NHT's were free. Not even if someone paid me.


[This message has been edited by AGAssarsson (edited April 08, 2003).]

I thought this was the "950 Feedback" forum, and my review was giving the Outlaws some feedback on how the 950 sounds (against the Stage One)

I made up the review? You wish. It is what it is. After 72 hours in my system, I wished the 950....sounded better (compared to the Aragon). The 950 actually doesn't look bad at all; the grey finish matches my Xbox and Hughes DSS.

In this hobby where many folks constanting research new brands and products and the upgrade process can be continuous, some of the Outlaw crowd seems to be fixated on one brand, and feel that the sonic limits stop with the 950. The flexiblity of separates means that most of you probably have 7 nice amp channels connected to the 950, and some of you will find it easy to move onto other prepros in the future. Then, you may echo the sonic *improvements* I described in my review, that's what happens when one upgrades. Some Outlaw lurkers probably don't have any issues with my review, but they don't want to post against the MOB.

Hurl all the personal insults you want. And attacking NHT 3.3s? If any posters or lurkers want to discuss my review or alternatives to the 950/amps in similiar price ranges, feel free to discuss on other forums there will be alot of other folks with various experiences across many brands (perhaps a forum that is not sponsored by Outlaw like avsforum). See ya around......

Phillip,

No specific referrals to what you wrote in my posts in this thread.


Cappy,

I know a dealer in Long Island (near you?) who sells both AT (ie, Outlaw 950 clone) and Sunfire (perhaps less than 3k for a demo Ultimate receiver?). If you want to contact him directly and discuss both products for your system, shoot me an email. The guy has dozens of positive reviews (as a seller and someone giving advice) on audiogon and audioasylum).




[This message has been edited by Ricky (edited April 08, 2003).]

I still don't think this forum is the appropriate place for Ricky's comparison style; however, I don't think AGAssarsson
has identified a correct issue.

I have NHT speakers all the way around in my 950-based system and they sound just fine, thank you very much. (I also happen to have an Aragon amp in that system which sounds great.) So you just lay off insulting my speakers, AGAssarsson!!! (Glad you like your B&W's. They are nice, aren't they?)

More to the point, IMHO, is that Ricky's review is stylistically biased (like so much TV news, for instance). We don't have any standard here, just fatter/thinner, bigger/smaller etc. with the negative adjectives consistently applied to the Outlaw. It makes the Outlaw look like a loser throughout the review. Then, at the end, the writer "bails out" with a nod to the price/performance value of the 950. Unfortunately, that "nod" is impotent after the litany of negative-connotation adjectives that preceded it. (Even there, however, he can't help but assert that the 950 NEW remains inferior to another product that STILL costs $1000 more USED. See what I mean about his biased style of writing?)

Even more unfortunately, the price/performance ratio IS The Story where the Outlaw 950 is concerned. The 950 isn't the greatest pre/pro ever made; but for the money it's the best ride in the business and I'm glad I own one.

THAT'S the point, not some arbitrary comparison with another pre/pro that pretty damn well better sound superior at 4x the price.

I also object to the assertion -- in a subsequent post -- that Outlaw owners think Outlaw is the alpha and omega of HT hardware. I don't think even the Outlaws, themselves, believe that. We're not lemmings. Even so, Ricky's comments suggest that he's on a holy bubble-bursting mission. Sorry, my friend, but it's an unnecessary mission and, based on the comments here, an unwanted mission as well.

I AM interested in Ricky's thoughts, but I prefer to explore them on another site -- which is happening, by the way.

[This message has been edited by boblinds (edited April 08, 2003).]

Did you put the Aragon in yours?

if so what did you think of the difference?

If we were lemmings, we would have gathered our friends together and piled into an SUV of your choosing and headed off to the nearest Bose store

“Some Outlaw lurkers probably don't have any issues with my review”
“but do want to take this opportunity to apologize for asking for comparison reviews”
Dear Cappy24. Don’t apologize. I don’t have any issue with Ricky’s posting a review, nor is this normal behavior in the Outlaw forum for those whom are new to browsing here. There ARE head to heads and comparisons discussed on this forum. Ricky got an unusually vigorous (and colorful) response because some longer term owners are very familiar with a handful of familiar names (like Ricky and John) whom after I assume peacefully being allowed their own RIGHT TO CHOOSE a product, - cannot tear themselves away from constantly refuting any positive reviews, discussions, or recommendations listed in any thread on the web which complements or recommends the 950. For some bizarre reason the 950 seems to engender much heated outrage from some posters, who rarely bother to comment on the multitude of other choices, owners are left in peace to purchase. The eye of the storm centers on Outlaws alleged reputation fostered by many of its purchasers when posting their opinions who had felt to their varying degree’s that Outlaw far exceeded its price bracketing in performance.
I feel, Ricky’s head to head was “not inappropriate” as I mentioned in my first post. It was a 950 in the demo.
My posts came after Ricky’s second posting in this thread. Presenting himself as a guest in a house. (we are all guests here). While telling all other guests to remove themselves to another location (the promotion of competitors products ie: his list of several alternatives recommendations, rather than any Outlaw product in an Outlaw forum).

but they don't want to post against the MOB Ricky follow my logic please. I am not a MOB. I am a strange ( ) individual female, who researched and deliberated and demoed and happenstance purchased a 950.
I deliberately and with malice of forethought CHOSE IT over other options. I entered the Outlaw Forum and Other Assorted Forums simultaneously. If after my personal journey through research, demo, I at this point capitulated to your desire to let you LEAD ME to a sonic upgrade. Thereupon I WOULD finally become a card-carrying member of a MOB. (Ricky’s Raiders).

And while I am sure you have admirable leadership capabilities, I being “too adventuresome to be briefly described” would make a very poor follower. You’d have insurrection, and mayhap the occasionally assassination attempt, and all sorts of messy bothersome activities to put down if you absorbed me into the Collective. Ricky, have you ever heard the saying “be careful what you wish for.”


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited April 08, 2003).]

Boblinds:

Nice long and well-reasoned post!

Practicing your typing?

No, im using an AT P2000 right now, and i happened to have the Outlaw for a few more days until my 30 day return period is up so we thought we'd take advantage of the situation and have Ricky try it out in his system. I haven't listened to both of them in the same system though and probably won't as the outlaw needs to go back. Maybe one day though we'll do a P2000 vs aragon comparison...

i've said it before, and i'll repeat...rick, it's good to have you here. though your search seems to have no particular goal in mind, or you just enjoy the upgrade hunt (actually, the stage one is your first REAL upgrade, from the previous equipment list you post) more than it's end (what i refer to as being 'itchy'), i stand to gain from your posts. that's always a welcome thing.

i just can't read the parts of ANY pre-pro review that center on '2 channel performance' with all those 'thin, open, fast, tight, wide, harsh, smooth, bright, warm...', well, you get the gist.

who buys a pre-pro for it's 2 channel performance? no one with sense. none of them, at any price are 'audiophile' quality in this arena.

if you want soundstage and depth and clarity, etc., dvd-a/sacd/dts-cd are the formats to review. these are the best of the multi-channel formats...the ones that really matter.

try to follow this:
if '2 channel' is the bulk of your listening enjoyment, the 950 is the obvious pre-pro choice. with the rather substantial monies you save, you can buy a good cd transport and stereo preamp (the player being the most important piece in the cd 'chain').

it makes much more sense to purchase a used stereo pre, as they've been around forever and have been documented as to performance nuances and engineering principals from every conceivable angle, so your 'deal' is predictable as to outcome.

at ces, i heard a $60K pair of signature phoenix speakers by calix. the cd was specifically selected, as were the cables, pre, amp and player. it sounded as good as i've ever heard a stereo cd sound. but...it was still, unmistakably, a stereo cd.

to contrast, i heard a multi-channel sacd (through a sony, off-the-shelf player) at spectron/von schweikert's room. though spectron's class d amps are pricey, the system was still much less dinero. the sound was remarkably better. use any words in the english language to descibe the sound. it was just remarkably better.

you may argue how many people still prefer stereo cd, how much hardware and software is out there, yadda, yadda, blah, blah. the stereo cd is a dinosaur. it is not why i would buy ANY pre-pro. as i've said, i have a 30 year old bob carver, a 25 year old crown and a 12 year old macintosh stereo pre, any of which easily rival the stage one's 2 channel performance.

the point is, we all have specific reasons for our 950 purchase. because we were very specific in our reasons, we are mostly very happy with the purchase. for me, cd performance had ZERO to do with it.

analog I/O is the reason for 'no aragon for me'. i'll wait. the lex MC12B is the only existing pre-pro with what i really want. but, get real with the stupid price. straight-up trade? DONE. otherwise, i'll wait. outlaw will have it soon enough, at a price i'll pay. a lot more multi-channel software will be available by then and better uni-players will be here, too. (maybe even one from outlaw).

each person in this forum has his/her reasons to prefer the 950. trying to convince them that their reasoning is grossly flawed is a pretty dumb move.

now you know why my first post was the short version answer. the above is strictly my opinion. as we say, YMMV.

ricky..i would really like the opportunity to demo the sunfire ultimate...i can't find anyone who has it in stock..i would appreciate the info..my email is: cappy24@optonline.net

I said I wouldnt respond but a couple of the last posts have actually been level-headed..

First, Thanks Boblinds for defending my beloved NHT's..there not the best speakers out there but I love their characteristics.

Bossobass,

You bring up some valid points about sacd etc. Ive had two sacd players (sony 555 and 775)..I really loved the sound but the problem was that the selection of music is just so small that I got frustrated everytime I went to tower records/best buy and saw nothing new. Maybe someday there will be more selections but I doubt it as Joe six-pack doesnt give a hoot. I currently have a dvd-audio player and am having the same frustration..

Secondly, you mention two channel as though it is worthless. I HIGHLY disagree. CD's for the most part do sound harsh etc. but there are some very well recorded ones out there. Also two channel for me is all about albums (yea thats right) the superior format and I would argue just as good as scad or dvd-audio in many cases. I picked up 500 albums for about 150 bucks, hell it took me 10 times more money to buy that amount of cds (I dont even want to mention the price of sacds)..To my ears, a good turtable setup in yes (two channel) can be unbeatable...Ive found the aragons bypass to be the best at getting out of the way then any pre-pro Ive had before (truly).Its built around the aragon arium (spelling ?)..which is a highly respected stereo pre..I agree thats theres better choices out there but keep in mind that imo the aragon makes an excellant stereo pre alone...Now dont get me wrong, I wouldnt mind getting a high end tube-pre someday either..Untill recently I didnt think you could get a ht processor that could double as a good stereo pre either (but I have since changed my mind)...You dont know what your missing if you never experience it and thats the main reason I try different equipment

I thought my denon 3801 sounded great never harsh etc...untill I tried the denon 4802..thought it couldnt be beat untill I tried the Lexicon..I KNEW it was the best....untill I heard the aragon...where will it go ? I dont know but it will be interesting. Being close-minded is an easier path but not as rewarding.

Wow!!,the only trade you'd make for the 950 would be for the mc-12 straightup ?...hmm, well to each his own I guess



[This message has been edited by JohnTompkins (edited April 08, 2003).]

Dear boblinds:

Please forgive me for piling on the NHT's. I believe you made one of my main points, abet more directly. Actually, I do not dislike the sound quality of NHT's, but my personal tastes have led me to choose another speaker. I am wed to the B&W sound contour and other associated sonic characteristics, so when I said I was biased, I was really telling it like it is. After almost 20 years with various B&W speakers, I find that my tastes have evolved with their product line. Although I have owned and do listen to other brands; at this time, I would not choose another speaker, no matter the price.

All the sonic attributes that Ricky used to distinguish between the Aragon and the 950 pre-pro could easily be said of any speaker, and with even more intensity. I strongly believe that speakers, their placement, and the rooms' acoustical profile will have significantly greater impact on overall system quality than the differences between any two reasonably qualified pre-pros. For the many contented Outlaws, the 950 qualifies to this end.

As Ricky felt at home in this forum to denigrate the 950 on it's home turf, even to the extent that he provides counsel to potential 950 owners about the alternative products that he clearly believes leave the 950 in the dust. "Thin, harsh, narrow soundstage, shallow soundstage, lack of detail, poor rendering of female vocals"... these are not terms of endearment.

Given his own clear and aggressive opinions in this forum, he could not tolerate even the suggestion that his choice of speakers might have the same sonic limitations when compared to others. Ricky's retort, " Hurl all the personal insults you want. And attacking NHT 3.3s?". Woooooo baby; when the shoe is on the other foot, don't we get sensitive.

It is just as simple as that. How dare one suggest his devotion to his speakers might be as subjective as our selection of a pre-pro? This is a 950 forum so he has diplomatic immunity? For all those who seek to find the silver lining to Ricky's obsession, may I suggest the new French Outlaw 950 forum.

best multi-channel discs:
sacd: spyro-gyra: 'in modern times'
various (great) musicians: 'celebrating the music of weather report'
james taylor: 'hourglass'
pink floyd: 'dark side of the moon'

dvd-a: yes: 'fragile'
[other folks can insert their favs here]

dts-cd: sting: 'brand new day'
alan parsons: 'on air'

dts music video: eagles: 'hell freezes over'

the titles are growing in number, with a lot of good titles arriving this year of stuff that's being written and produced for the formats. i agree about the first titles. i'm not much of a classical or acoustic jazz fan, but every collection has to start somewhere.

to clarify: i don't think stereo is worthless, just no comparison to a good hi-rez, multi disc. my point was that i wouldn't judge a multi-channel A/V pre very much by it's stereo ability. i know that many disagree, but i mentioned it to give some insight as to why i like the 950. it's superb for sacd/dvd-a, and has built-in BM for those formats. the price is the best-in-class...period. the warranty is the best-in-class, and it's solidly backed by a good company that listens to our comments and responds. this forum is the best-in-class.

i choose to wait for the next-generation...which is coming soon enough...rather than to pay 3-4 times the 950's price, only to find it's outdated in less than a year.

i still have every piece i ever bought, in excellent condition. i'm a patient guy, and time passes very quickly. i ain't a used equipment kind of guy.

truthfully, to me, the b&k, aragon, rotel, parasound, anthem, etc. class of pre is only worth $1500-1800. they're way overpriced, largely because the manufacturers know how short their lives are.

i understand where you're coming from, JT. to repeat, aragon is a great company that makes great products. so is outlaw audio. each product to a specific target, each of it's own time, each with it's own set of reasons to buy it. otherwise, there would be 1 company, 1 model.

and...belated welcome to the saloon, where the house drink is magaritas (by the pitcher).

Cappy,

You have email.


AGAssarsson,

I am actually not all at defensive about my NHT 3.3s. You say whatever you want about them.

There are sonic differences between B&W 7NTs and your N803s, right? What words would you use to describe the weaknesses of the 7NTs (if you did an A/B demo)?

bossobass,

Those old stereo preamps in your closet must be indeed nice. Integrating a 2 channel preamp into a HT system could be cumbersome though without unity gain bypass...even harder to use if some of those old preamps don't have remote controls

Hey, were you at the NYC show last May? I was there, the multichannel from that VonSch/Spectron room was quite nice indeed. Of course, most of the gear there was shown in 2 channel!

If one preamp has a better analog section and/or lower noise floor than another, you don't think that could affect dd/dts sound quality? Or the quality of analog sources such as hi-rez 5.1 sacd/dvd-a?

[This message has been edited by Ricky (edited April 08, 2003).]

AGAssarsson,

Your arguments and comments just dont stack up. There were no claims made that the nhts are better then other speakers costing 3 times as much. Of course speakers have different characteristics and are most important along with room/placement etc, Heck my 10 year old son knows this. The sonic values of different speakers are usually explained in terms of sonics and yes, using words like warm,bright,harsh,smooth..and would you believe this (some ARE better then others!) wow thats a revelation..

A pre-pro may not have as much impact as speakers but it DOES have a major impact. The better your system is the easier you will detect the differences. I wouldnt put pep-boys tires on a lexus. If your happy with the 950, thats great!..but contrary to what the majority believe (not all though) on this forum, there ARE better sounding pre-pros out there..If I had the 950 and liked it, I would say so..also thats its a bargain at its price, I dam sure wouldnt make claims that it is the equal sonically to superior units..JUST like I dont claim my nhts match 10,000 dollar speakers..You can say two channel is not important to you, so you didnt take it into account or it has everything YOU need or looks arent important to you or whatever...thats fine, I have no problem with these statements, we all have to make choices that are best for us(my soundstage doesnt have dd-ex or dts-es)..Thats because my room is small and I would rather have pure sonics and thats my choice. I surely wont make the claim that the aragon will best theta, mc-12 or whatever as the difference is.. I know were My gear is at on the "food chain"..



[This message has been edited by JohnTompkins (edited April 09, 2003).]

Actually,his comments stack up very nicely!
Nobody says there aren't better sounding pre/pros out there,but you will encounter with the "diminishing returns" much sooner,then with speakers.For instance the difference between my soon to be "ex" mains Def Tech BP10 and say the Vienna Acoustics Beethovens,the price differences are roughly the same as the 950 and Stage 1.Which upgrade do you prefer? The room correction,and acoustical treatments,can be a lot less,or more depends on the room,never the less it's far more important then swapping electronics,something most of the "audiophiles" fail to address,or "understand".
Also lets quote MSRPs in context to reference,and not "Krazy Eddie" ones.

I just had some thoughts I would like to add to this post:

The way ears hear details can be influenced greatly by what your mind is thinking. If I want to feel that my system is providing me with a great soundstage, I listen for certain sound cues and go, "Wow, what a great soundstage." If I feel in the upgrade mood and think it might be time to "improve" my system, I listen again for certain sound cues and go, "Damn, I thought my soundstage was wider than that."

This could be why I take all reviews, wether by users or by magazine editors, as general indicators of if a product can function or not. If I find that more reviews provide favorable opinions of the product, I make an attempt to go listen to that product. If my ears percieve that they like it and it fits into my system, both with technical ability and being in my budget range, I buy it.

My main problems with Ricky's review are that all of his conclusions are based on factors that in no way can provide a unbiased view of the product. He is an owner of one of the products being compared which alone disqualifies this from being a fair review. Also, this review was posted on a forum run by the manufactuer of the product that his review basically states is inferior to similiar products on the market. This review works fine on a general forum but not here.

As I said before, these are just my .02 cents on this post. Take them as you will.

quote:
Nobody says there aren't better sounding pre/pros out there,but you will encounter with the "diminishing returns" much sooner,then with speakers.For instance the difference between my soon to be "ex" mains Def Tech BP10 and say the Vienna Acoustics Beethovens

If I could only have one upgrade and not the other of course I would take the speakers.

Your point of diminishing return for a pre-pro may be the 950 (thats fine, no argument)..but it isnt MY point of diminishing return nor others...Everybodies diminishing return line is set differently and doesnt STOP at the 950 rest assured..Im glad you found your "point" as thats what this hobby is all about.

John:

Perhaps you would care to go into some detail of the circuity parts and implementation used on more expensive pre/pros verses the 950 that would justify the difference in cost? I really need an education on this - obviously the expensive brands are doing something with their NE5532 op amps that the 950 is not doing with it's NE5532 op amps.

Opinions are opinions, now would you please produce some engineering details that would make you believe that there is a large difference between the 950 and a more expensive one. And please don't use general terms like "its electronic design is better". Please back up any claims like "the power supply is better" with HOW it is better. "It just sounds better to me" is not a valid response to this question. And please don't cop out by simply giving me links to the "white papers" from the manufacturers of other pre/pros.

I am waiting.........


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited April 09, 2003).]

ahhhhhhhh...i've been inching toward this subject. (see soundhound's post).

if the DSP is equal, the DACs are the same, the I/O is the same, the opamps are the same, BM is the same, distance settings can be remedied by placement, then, technically speaking, what justifies the $3K diff in admission price?

we can all agree the faceplate ain't makin' it sound 'better', eh?

maybe it comes with a boutique aluminum atom sheild power cord?

no...we're down to the power supply and analog gain stage.

eliminate the pretty brochures, retailer cut, room for the volume buyer and higher required gross profit of the higher overhead manufacturer and what's left?

i second SH's question (actually, he just beat me to the punch). a proper answer and follow up here, will do two things. it' will prove your opinions valid, and earn you the respect to espouse them any way you like.

SoundHound,

I have no idea why one product sounds better then the other and could care less WHY it sounds better (maybe an engineer type could answer your question better). If somebody made a pre-pro outta cheap radio-shack parts and sold it for 100.00 I wouldnt care. If it sounded better to me then I'd buy it. Thats the really the main factor I go by. I buy one piece of gear and compare it to another(a/b style if possible), if it sounds better then it has a new home.

Now yes, sound is subjective just like anything else.If the 950 sounds better to you then a 5000.00 pre-pro more power to ya, or if a 200.00 sony sounds better to you, thats ok too.

Does the 950 sound better to YOU then the aragon or theta or lexicon or meridian or anthem ?..I take it you have compared it to some of these units directly, correct ?..just curious

Did not read all the replies but I am sure Ricky "blind" tested his A/B comparisons of the 950 vs et al....that is, he was unaware which pre/pro he was listening to when he made his value judgements

bossobass,

Why do you assume that the analog stage has little effect on the sound quality (via digital and analog connections)? Are you saying that stereo preamps basically sound the same? Take the Aragon Soundstage, it has the same analog ciruitry as the Aragon Aurum preamp. So the Aurum would not sound any different from the 950 (used as a 2 channel preamp)?

My four rears varying between ~ 4ft and ~ 8ft. Do you think distance settings could matter in generating a more cohesive soundfield (for DVDs).

So let me get this straight. JT has to prove why his prepro sounds better to him by digging up part numbers but you don't have to justify why the 950 is THE point in diminishing returns over 3k processors? All of this after he was very clear that everyone has different needs/diminishing return points.

I am certain that Ricky's NHT 3.3's are GOOD ENOUGH to hear any differences between the Stage One and 950. It is not like he had Bose 301's for the demo.

Now I can understand you not wanting rocks thrown at your 950 in a Outlaw forum. I don't think that was done. After months of claims there was no need to spend 3k on a preamp once the 950 hit the scene, you didn't think that caused a few raised eyebrows?

I am one of the biggest diminishing returns guys you will find but my point of DR may only be considered low-fi by some.

I am not a Ricky cheerleader but I did buy his Soundstage (replace Sony TA-E9000es and TA-P9000es). I only have NHT VT2's (fronts), VT1.2's (rears) and Sherbourn's 5/1500a amp. Ricky almost had to pry the Sony combo from my hands to even try the Soundstage but he knew my setup (NHT's and music preference in a 5.1 setup) and was sure I would like the preamp. He even sent the Soundstage before payment so I could A/B the setup and sell the loser. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Umm...just for the curious here...were you at this test? I'm totally unfamiliar with Ricky's affliation with other forums and companies but, wow, did he come to this forum with a small army.

I'll restate something from my previous post. You are really posting all this information on the wrong forum. Your opinions and views are great to hear and in some ways can be helpful. But, you're on Outlaw's forum here. The large majority of people here are satisfied Outlaw customers who are willing to recommend their product to people looking for equipment in the same range.

John:

Actually no, I have not directly compared the 950 to the Aragon or the others. What I have done however is done strict (and I do mean strict) direct blind A/B comparisons via relay switching of the direct feed from a variety of sources (up to 24 bit feeds from my digital audio workstation, playing master recordings) into my custom vacuum tube preamp and that of the feed through the 950. The results? There is no audible difference, and with the latest incarnation of the 950, no increase in noise. No difference on such subjective factors as "soundstaging", "warmth", "focus" - you name it. If it does not alter the signal in any way, just how much "better" would you suggest it might be? And yes, I know a thing or two about critical listening - I do it for a living. In the real world, not for some audiophile publication. I have an electronics lab in my house (I am an electronics engineer too) and have had the 950 on my bench and taken critical measurements. I actually worked to some extent with Outlaw on improvements in the 950 from earlier versions of the unit. Again, I ask you - if there is absolutely no degradation or change in the sound as it passes through the 950, just how much more "perfect" would you suggest it needs to be?

From your statements, you are obviously going on sheer faith and non controlled comparisons of these preamps. You know of course how fallable the human ear is don't you? I'll remind you that processes like Dolby Digital and DTS rely on the weaknesses of our ears so that they can throw away up to 90% of the audio signal. Our "audio memory" is very short, and extremely vulnerable to the influences of our other senses, such as the perceived "value" of a component. If you think that you can reliably perform an unbiased comparison while knowing the identities of the components, you are either fooling yourself, or are simply being arrogant.

I'm afraid it DOES come down to pure science and engineering when it comes to designing an audio component. If the laws of physics are valid for the Space Shuttle, then there is no reason to believe that something like audio would be exempt. Perhaps you know something we don't know?

If, as you say, it does not matter to you why a component sounds better, I'm afraid you have just summed up the situation for those who are vulnerable to "snake oil" sales pitches. I would hope you are a bit more discriminating than you make yourself out to be.

Purchasing an article that is technology based would seem to demand a certain amount of inquiry as to "why" is somebody charging 3 times the price for "item A" verses "item B". Doesn't this matter to you? Are you so rich that it doesn't matter? Do you like to waste money? If these inquiries are not made, then that leaves you wide open for the excesses of the marketing machine of those manufacturers who would be more than happy to relieve you of your money.

The reason people like me are users of Outlaw equipment is that by and large we have bothered to educate ourselves about the real differences between components. We demand quality, but we are not stupid enough to pay for hype. The owners of Outlaw equipment know that this company is concerned with cutting through the hype and misleading claims and delivering a top quality product at a price that is fair. If this bothers you, well I frankly don't care.

Purchasing high priced components based solely on faith may make you feel good, but I would suggest you stay away from people selling you beachfront land in Arizona.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited April 09, 2003).]

I am not an ally of R or of anyone....yet. I am sure R noticed the sarcasm of my remark.

As hard as it might be for you to accept, YES, that is exactly the case! If they use the same parts, and equivalent support circuitry, they will sound the same. As I stated before, audio is not immune to the laws of physics and engineering.

In order for there to be differences, the topology of the two units would have to be dis-similar, such as solid state verses tube.



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited April 09, 2003).]

Bias: An inclination of temperament or outlook. A personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment.

I don't believe that such a thing as an unbiased review actually exists. For that matter, I don't believe that an unbiased review is even the most useful kind of review.

Really, in reading a review, I suppose I'm actually trying to discern how my bias compares with the reviewer's bias. If comparable, then I probably tend to assign more weight to the reviewer's comments. If contrasting, then I may tend to assign less weight to the reviewer's comments. And in some cases, the reviewer's bias may actually help me to appreciate an aspect of this hobby that I had previously overlooked.

Case in point: Bossobass is clearly biased against assigning much value to the analog two-channel performance of a pre/pro. In his view, the newer, high-resolution multi-channel formats are the only way to go. On the other hand, I DO care about this aspect of a pre/pro's performance because I've heard regular CDs sound really amazing in various incarnations of my setup. As a result, I'd probably pay more attention to opinions from SH and KCB when it comes to the 950's two-channel chops. Interestingly, SH and others do use a separate, high-quality analog pre in conjunction with the 950 for CD listening.

Getting back to Ricky and JohnTompkins, I think their inclinations are fairly obvious. In general, they acknowledge that the 950 is a good performer at its price point, but they feel that it's a big stretch to say that the 950 competes with (let alone outperforms) the other more-costly units. In general, I regard this as a pretty reasonable opinion.

However, what really, really bugs me is to see them assert, over and over again, that the majority of people on this forum don't believe that there are better sounding pre-pros available. Can we please get past this? I've looked over a good bit of this forum, and I see lots of 950 owners who've owned and tried lots of other gear. In general, the thing that hooked them with the 950 was its VALUE. In other words, the things the 950 doesn't do are relatively minor compared to all the great things that it does do for the money. Even the print reviews on the 950 seem to agree on this point, so it's just beyond me why this debate rages on.

Lastly, the review of the 950 in The Perfect Vision did note that the 950 sounded better when mated to the 770. I'm curious to know if others have had similar experiences and if anyone knows why a 770 would sound better with the 950 than a high-dollar BAT multi-channel amp.

Soundhound,

How does the specs on your vacuum tube pre-amp stack up to digital pre-amps ? probably not so good, but I guess since you own it you must "prefer" the sound. I havent did my homework and you have ?..Ive actually demoed the equipment with my EARS and to me thats the only thing that counts. How can you be so sure by specs alone that you would prefer the 950 over anything else just because the specs are close. Whether your engineer traights tell you their are no differnces, the sound from every pre-pro is a bit different..for whatever reason..

If I were to go by specs alone I wouldnt even consider a tube-pre or a turntable either..I just dont go by that philoshpy..but I dont have a problem with somebody who makes decisions based on specs alone..Ive did my homework in a way that is important to me

PS. I CAN be objective in my a/b-ing,,I always want the less expensive unit to sound better as to save a buck when I can.If it does it does and if it doesnt..I will pony up and spend the cash

John:

I wouldn't expect a different response from you - you believe what you want.

You misrepresented what I said. I do not rely on specifications alone in my equipment purchases - if there are sonic differences, I want to know the reasons for them from an engineering standpoint, so that I know my ears are not playing tricks on me, or I am being influenced by external conditions. Using a sonic preference alone can lead to the purchase of equipment that is unacceptably colored.

As for the vacuum tube preamp - well, I built it myself, and the noise is at about -90db below .775 v. Not what I would call "noisy". The distortion is similarly low. The "tube character" is not evident by design. It was designed to be transparent above all. I use this preamp because I have two signal paths in my setup. One being DVDs and CDs, the other beign a direct feed from my studio mixing console and workstation. I do have equipment, tubed and solid state, that is intentionally "colored". This equipment is used in a variety of situaions, such as "softening" an overly harsh digital recording.

My "home theater" is really a "mixing and mastering" suite where I edit, mix and master the music that is used in motion picture soundtracks. I have also done a few restorations to the soundtracks of some very high profile films. I purchase equipment based on only one requirement - that is be transparent, and allow me to hear what is on the master recordings, unaltered. If you have any DVDs, at least a few of them have music that has passed through my equipment, including the 950. I can purchase any equipment I want, regardless of cost. Annually, I purchase thousands of dollars worth of equipment in order to stay ahead of the technology curve, and therefore remain competitive in the market. Do you actually think that I would purchase the 950 if it didn't pass muster with me?

So believe what you want - but please, don't condesend to owners of the 950 with statements like "it's good for the price". If you can't actually back up your statements with something more than personal opinions, and are unwilling to do the necessary research, please don't judge the equipment choices of those who have bothered to do so.


PS: I'm still waiting for an answer to my question - if a component is absolutely transparent and doesn't add or subtract anything sonically, how much more "perfect" does it need to be?


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited April 09, 2003).]

First, well stated Pleary. I do agree about "the no such thing as a unbiased review." I was just trying to say that the bias here is larger than in most cases. I'm just as guilty as being biased myself. But then again, I don't post negative reviews.



Thank you for proving my point.

Ok Soundhound,

I guess your only one here qualified to give a review based on your extensive experience and your background..and I hear differences only because I want to and am fooling myself. That everything comes down to specs and that theres not even a need to demo equipment with your ears..That will save everybody who actually goes through the trouble of demoing time and energy (no need for that anymore), and if I dont hear what I like ,I guess all I will have to do is look at the specs to assure myself that they are the same...Yea, that'll work, thanks!

By the way, Im just curious as to why somebody would even go through the trouble of building a tube-pre if they dont want the "tube characteristics"..seems like it would be alot easier to go out and get one of those "they all sound the same" digital stereo pre's..

Sorry, I never told you what to purchase. I never "reviewed" your choice of preamp. I just take exception to unfounded trouncing of other's equipment choices, especially from those who are unwilling and unable to back up those opinions with hard facts, instead of personal opinion and hype. You and Ricky (Minime?) started this whole topic by your insistance on the inferiority of the 950. I don't insist that anybody go by my word alone. I have done a lot of listening, and hear master material as a routine part of my work. I hear live orchestras during scoring sessions as part of my work. I am a musician myself. My idea of an A/B comparison? - how about walking 20 feet from the scoring stage where the musicians are, into the control room. I don't presume to try to hype one product over another, but if someone wishes to take into account my experience, and my equipment choices, then that's their choice.

I use tubes simply because I like them. They can be implemented to impart a "tube character" or not, depending on what is desired. Solid state will always sound like, well, solid state.

Why don't you respond to the last quesion from my last post? Surely you have some opinion! if a component is absolutely transparent and doesn't add or subtract anything sonically, how much more "perfect" does it need to be?


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited April 09, 2003).]

Respect now a days is so hard to come by.

Mr. JT, what are your qualifications for reviewing audio equipment? You can state your views all you want but what background do you have to back them up? The ears of a trained musician and sound engineer are a lot different than somebody who is not in the audio industry. You seem to place a lot of emphasis on hearing ability so learn to respect the ability of some very highly trained ears.

This forum is a great place, or was before this topic, because it is inhabited by people who happen to be anything from just plain users to highly qualified engineers and technicians. You can learn a lot from repecting a person's position.

[This message has been edited by Jason J (edited April 09, 2003).]

Shouldnt I be a "gunslinger" by now ?..How many posts before I get rid of this "deputy" status..

Wow, it just changed on this post I believe..thats pretty wild




[This message has been edited by JohnTompkins (edited April 09, 2003).]

Sarcasm aside, I do think that SH is a real asset to this forum. In my estimation, and just based on his experience with master material, I think he offers (generously) a perspective that is worth considering.

Until you answer the question I've asked several times above, you'll just be considered another "tin-horn"

Gee, John, I sure hope you're not responsible for anything of significance. I could see you pacing off a few feet instead of doing a site survey or dispensing drugs by pouring some onto your hand until it "feels right." (Yes, a cheap shot. I admit it. )

Seriously, listening to components is a key aspect of making a purchase decision; but this is science, too, and it is IMHO profoundly misguided to praise the subjectivity of frail human hearing and pooh-pooh the realities of circuit design and component choice. As pointed out earlier, therein lies the voodoo of home audio that allows all manner of chicanery and charlatanism to thrive in the marketplace.

So, now that you're a gunslinger, pace off 20 and spin around, pard. Let's test your speed and your aim and settle this like men, not just a bunch of argumentative audio hobbyists.

[This message has been edited by boblinds (edited April 09, 2003).]

I will say this, I admire Outlaw for allowing this discussion as I dont think to many manufactures would allow it. I mean no disrespect to anybody here on this forum especially soundhound (who seems to really know his stuff). I hope that nobody is too pissed off and had some fun posting on this thread. I still diasagree with most points but some valid observations have been made.

God bless you'll and God bless our troops!

Posted before the last two comments showed up. Anyway, to your question I just dont know why one pre-pro would sound different then another if neither is coloring the sound (assuming that neither pre-pro is, and all I have to go by is soundhounds ears with no specs of my own on hand to verify)..I do know that to my ears they do have different characteristics and I can almost always tell a difference and always know which I personally prefer (its not my imagination as others I have over hear the same things I do most of the time)..whatever the reason



[This message has been edited by JohnTompkins (edited April 09, 2003).]

Here are some Sound & Vision LAB results. The Anthem, Sunfire, and Aragon were compared in the same write-up.

1) AC3 NOISE LEVEL on 16bit Signal (the larger the negative the better):
Sherwood 7108 -68.5 ($300 receiver)
Yamaha rx-v730 -67.7 ($599 receiver)
Sony DA4ES - 74.9 ($999 receiver)

Sherbourn PT-7000 -72.4 (Outlaw 950 clone)

Anthem AVM20 - 75.2 dB
Sunfire TGIII - 75.4 dB
Aragon Stage One - 75.6 dB

2) MULTICHANNEL ANALOG Inputs - Distortion (1 kHz at 200mV)
Sherwood 7108 0.05%
Yamaha 730 0.03%
Sony 4ES 0.02%

Sherbourn PT-7000 0.02%

Anthem 0.05%
Sunfire 0.02%
Aragon 0.003% (one tenth the distortion level!)

3) MULTICHANNEL ANALOG Inputs Noise Level (A-wtd re 200mV) The larger the negative the better.

Sherwood 7108 -74.5 dB
Yamaha 730 -80.4 dB
Sony 4ES -79.2 dB

Sherbourn -69.8 dB (the worst of the lot, is this Soundhound's "absolute transparency"?)

Anthem -84.4 dB
Sunfire -87.2 dB
Aragon -88.3 dB


[This message has been edited by Ricky (edited April 09, 2003).]

Ricky - puleease get off it!

What exactly you are trying to prove? I have never encountered anybody who so steadfastly tries to prove some "point", whatever that "point" may be. Don't you have other things to worry about? Really, are you a representative from some other competeting manufacturer? I can't honestly think of anybody who would go to such trouble to "prove" that a particular piece of equipment is inferior unless they had some vested interest.


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited April 09, 2003).]

You know that party I was talking about a few posts back? What usually happens is that the other guests leave.

That might not be such a bad idea here.

C'Ya. I'm outta this thread.

[This message has been edited by boblinds (edited April 09, 2003).]

Soundhound. Shhhhhh. Gently. I told John once he gave me ‘great face’ in the ubiquitous sense of an Asian foe. (Right John!) I too have felt my temp start to rise. It is hard when you are chased wherever you roam, and harder yet when chased to your own doorstep. But think of it this way, in reflection class it a compliment, - that many positive aspects of the 950, not least of which, is that many owners express deep satisfaction, is so all-fired negatively consuming to others.
Relax your indignance, study and consider: There will be some that seek to separate others from their satisfactions to the light of their own purposes. When uncontrolled undisciplined acts which appear sometimes cruel and unrelenting are viewed from a different angle a new picture can appear. Others fears can be a source of knowledge for us. Observe what motivates a fearfully intense reaction and you find the seed of that fear. Fanatical certainty, which books no exception but its acceptance, expends great energies and comes at a price. That certainty demands ceaseless and exhausting reinforcement. We however, - too timid to feel empowered to choose for others, Live well. It is the greatest revenge. Music unfortunately does not soothe every savage breast, there will always be those who know the price of everything yet never peace to relish the value of anything.

In a rather bizarre way I feel that there are a few, whom never having purchased a 950, are yet Outlaw Owners, - or more properly OWNED by Outlaw. When I consider:
That which worries us - Masters us.

Ricky, JT - how do you conduct A/B testing?
In your original post, you only describe your set up. How about the method?



[This message has been edited by nonzero (edited April 09, 2003).]

Beautifully said SLL...



Me too... but not before thanking Ricky...

Thank you Ricky.
Before this topic, I thought you were just an overly enthusiastic audio buff.

Your performance here has set the highest standard of self-inflicted abasement. There is, however, no objective scale for this achievement. I believe you would establish one if it were at all possible.

All your time and effort has only proved you to be a very pathetic, pathological, mean-spirited, and confused person. Notice I did not say stupid...
Stupid people have an excuse.

Bye Bye...

Now I remember why I do not spend much time over at HTF any more. Too much ego and too little real information.

sorry...i must not have said it succinctly enough. i do think the analog stage is important. you, as the initiator of the 'whatever' preamp's superiority, have the burden of proof. and, in this case especially, only the facts will give an opinion validity.

on the point of speaker distance, this is where you and i differ. i would suggest building a room that isn't speaker distance handicapped. there are no diminishing returns there (unless you gold plate the walls). the time and money required are much better spent on the listening environment (which remains beyond our lifespan) than the audio hardware (which comes and goes with the changing technological winds) and the value increases with time. i'm a licensed builder, and residential design/drafting are 2 of the many things i do. the cost is not an issue with me, because it's where i live and i'm not of insufficient means.

of course i am aware of the importance of speaker placement. mine are all PRECISELY placed.

so, i understand if one of your issues is speaker distance (digital delay, which you don't have in analog) tweakability. it's just that, to me, it isn't a weak point for the 950.

Bosso:

I completely agree with your views on the importance of that "800 pound gorilla" - the listening room. A room that has certain ratios of length x depth x height can produce uncorrectable peaks and nulls in frequency response. Poorly thought out acoustic treatment (or none at all) can obscure the strengths of even the best equipment. Uncontrolled echoes, especially "slap echoes" can render even the best speakers ineffective at presenting a realistic image of the original performance.

Of course not all people can build a dedicated room, but there is a lot that can be done by simple arrangement of the equipment in the room and some thought given to the influence of objects near the speakers.

I really wish this topic would receive as much attention as is lavished on the differences between "brand A" vs "brand B". Listening room acoustics may not be as sexy or exciting a topic as the latest and greatest pre/pro, but believe me, it is far more important if the objective is the most realistic and faithful reproduction possible.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited April 10, 2003).]

Brianca pokes this thread with a stick to see if it's really dead......

Be Berry Berry careful!. If its like a ‘Terminator” movie. No telling where it will pop up next, just when you turn your back on it.

It ain't a good party if nothing gets broke.....

My two cents:

You know you're gettin' somewhere when people try and knock ya down!

Thanks Outlaw

------------------
MeanGene's Home

Well, I've been gone a little over a week and look what happens.

I read the rules for this forum and abide by them--too bad others (ricky et al.) can't, however, I do enjoy a spicey battle now and then.

I agree with SH and the others-- Outlaw is great equipment and it's low price for the "bang" has allowed me to re-enter the separates again, and I am VERY greatful to Outlaw for this.

As a scientist (physical) SH is correct-- to conduct an experiment, one must take all precautions possible (re; blind testing) in order to insure that one's bias does not color the results. It sounds as if Ricky failed to do this.

I NEVER knock anyone elses equipment-- it isn't polite. Suggestion for Ricky: if you ever go to a "happening" (forum, convention, party, etc.) where like minded people are discussing topics (politics, religion, audio equipment, etc.), it isn't wise to tell them that they or their ideas suck. Instead, go to a place where a group with a mind-set like your own hang together.

By the time I got to the end of this thread, I was ANGRY. I hate being angry- it interferes with my natural flippant attitude. So please, Ricky and Friends, find another Forum other than this and attack them. Oh no, I just rubbed my over 50 year-old face and know what I found (from getting angry, I bet)? Two ZITS!! SEE WHAT YOU CAUSED!!!



------------------

Hello All,
I can't believe that I just waded through most of this thread. IMHO there has been some great information, some marginal information, and just some crap. I'm back because I like the debate around here, and was bored. I wasn't disappointed.
Y'all spoke about qualifications. Well, I've been involved with Audio Engineering most of my life. Started with being raised by a great jazz musician and went to a degree from the University of Maryland in Audio Engineering, to employment by Disney, then many groups that you all know, 1000's of industrial shows, etc. In other words I've heard, been asked to review a lot of
equipment. I've done objective blind tests, and many more when i've just been asked what I liked. On this subject, I bought a new out-of-the-box Aragon Soundstage about two years ago with the promise that there would be an upgrade. My sojourn to the upgrade was long. It appears that my upgrade was if not a 'beta test' then close to it. My original version had a clocking error that caused the system to shut down after about ten minutes. Ultimately, through a ship-back of the piece to Klipsch/Aragon and many conversations with Adam at Mondial, I now have a very beautiful piece with 192khz/24 bit dac's, the Aurum Pre-amp, and all of the processing formats currently available.
Was it worth the cost/time? To me yes.
Caveat Emptor.
As Always,
Mix
And yes, I am an avid Outlaw Supporter. I've owned a 1050 and my entire system is supported by Outlaw cables.