I can contain my excitement no longer. The 950 is a dream come true!!! Combined with my Outlaw 750 and Vienna speakers, the Outlaw 950 has transformed my almost there system to there and beyond!!!! Movies have come alive like never before. Who needs SACD?? With the 950 at the helm, even my plain old standard cd's sound magnificent. My 950 replaces a B&K 4090AVP which was an excellent processor for me, but for less than half the money, I'm getting it all!!! I've got 4 more days until the end of my 30 day trial and here is what I've got to say.... The only way anyone can separate me from my 950 is by force, and you'd better bring a big army cause I'll put up a fight!!!
GREAT JOB OUTLAWS!!!!!

We'll just have to agree to disagree (again) on that one I suspect. I'd submit that it's probably almost all been processed by the time we see it anyway.

Once you're digitized I'd rather do everything in discrete math and go back to analog at the last possible moment. The processing to do digital time delays is truly trivial, and that which is required to do other common transforms is well understood. Not to say it can't be done badly (analog or digital) but it's no mystery either.

The only time I could see benefit to analog processing is a fully analog signal chain, which is not practical for almost everyone.

don't get me wrong, i agree with you, charlie. it's just that i can design and build the analog version. not so in digital. there are just a few dsp chipset makers. they aren't likely to listen to me. not without the clout of major pre-pro manufacturers who agree or the promise of mega-thousand piece purchases.

also, digital amps are just appearing now. it's a dream, like you said. it will come, but not for years.

sp/dif has to go.
the pre-pro has to be completely redesigned.
bass management has to be corrected to suit all multi formats.
the output config has to be redesigned.
digital amps have to be readily available in high quality and various configs.
speakers have to be redesigned.
dvd-a/sacd players have to have digital out.
not likely to happen anytime soon.

in analog...no dream...can be done as we speak. not ideal, but much better than what we have now.

or...maybe we should start a company and get on with the all-digital signal path. each of us take a part and design it.

very glad to hear a happy audio/video story! just do yourself a favor and put dvd-a/sacd on your to-do-next list. great post, GMAN

Just to add my 2 cents on digital vs analog processing.....

I use digital processing daily in my work, performing digital EQ, mixing, reverb, compression, you name it, and I don't think it's accurate to say that it somehow is not fully ready for prime time or "flawed". I have to honestly admit that even when doing bit reductions of music masters all the way down to CD standard 16/44.1k, I cannot hear any difference or degredation in the sound. This is done on the same system, same gain, same everything except for the processing. I depend on my ears and abilities to pick out digital artifacts and any degredation in sound - that's how I make my living. I hear "digital done badly" all the time, and I know what it sounds like. Doing it right, I haven't heard anything to make me believe that the current digital signal chain is anything but transparent if it is done correctly.

That said, I also agree with bosso that digital processing should not take place unless absolutely necessary. In any digital operation, the signal is altered and subject to degredation. Believe it or not, this is also true (actually very true) of that most basic function of a preamp: digital volume control. Any reduction of volume done in the digital domain is going to reduce the resolution from it's original bit depth. Reduce the volume 24db (typical volume in normal listening) and you've knocked off 4 bits of resolution in your SACD or DVD-A recording. The same holds true of any other function like EQ done in the digital domain. Doing some of these functions in the analog domain, if the circuit is designed well, will not compromise the digital word one bit.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that I think that digital should be used as a "capture medium" at the highest bit and sample rate possible and practical. Any post-processing of the masters should be done in the digital domain CAREFULLY, before the master is committed to disc. After it leaves the digital to analog converters in the consumer's player, I believe it should be analog all the way to the speaker.

If at some point in the future someone should come up with a truly digital speaker technology (I'm not talking about a conventional speaker with the DACS and amps internal to the speaker cabinet), it would make sense to keep things digital all the way. I don't see the present "state of the art" in speakers fundamentally changing for quite a while, however. Until that time, they need to be driven by an analog signal, and that is best supplied with an analog pre and power amplifier.

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The Soundhound Theater

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited March 11, 2003).]

Trying to decide 950/7100 or denon 3803, marantz 9200(9300 soon)- cant wait for 4803. 1.What's the wife operating factor to switch between tv, audio (fm,cd dvd-a) on the 950? 2. should i wait until the 6.1 dts-es lfe issue solved? 3. best after-market remote for 950 and family?

Well...

1) With a little planning and perhaps a macro or two (I have a macro to turn on TV, digital cable, and 950 and another to turn them all off), I've had great success with my wife using the 950.

2) It might be worthwhile to give Outlaw another week or so to pick at it and see what they come up with.

3) Some of us are actually fairly happy with the SL-9000 clone that comes with the 950. If you don't like it, the MX-500 is the current favorite replacement. The Pronto is always good if budget allows and you like touch screen remotes (I have found that I prefer a remote that primarily uses hard buttons, but it is very much a matter of personal preference), but the cheaper Pronto NEO seems to have more than its share of problems, both with the 950 and in general.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

This is of course very true, but isn't it also true that those 'lost bits' are (on gear like the 950) hopelessly buried more than 40 db below the noise floor? In a case like that I doubt I'd notice....

It was my understanding that, for instance, the 950 analog sections exhibit noise approximately equivalent to 15-17 bits of resolution, or 90-102 db S/N ratio? I'm not too worried about losing some resolution as the LSB drops to the -140 db zone. Should I be?

Charlie:

All very true. I was just making a point with the SACD / DVD-A - but if you happen to be playing a 16 bit CD and use the same volume control setting (likely), you end up with a (bada-bing) 12 bit recoding.

It's also true that some "digital" volume controls are really "digitally controlled ladder attenuators". In these, the various resistors in the attenuator are switched digitally. This is technically an analog volume control.

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The Soundhound Theater

Right, but in the case with a CD data stream I'd be really disappointed if the processor actually switched to using 16 bit words internally for 16 bit audio. So in that case, I'd expect to see 8 zero bits (48 db) get discarded before actually losing ANYTHING on a 24 bit DSP.