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#43373 - 12/16/02 06:48 PM Re: Firewire interface for DVD-Audio
Iggy The Dog Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/28/01
Posts: 101
Loc: The Dog House
Before everyone gets all het up about the "OK to use 1394 for passing DVD video and DVD-A between a player and a sink device such as a digital television and/or an audio product such as a processor" news, my master requests that you look at the one page in the 1.0 spec that deals with copy protection: Page GI3-13. It basically pushes the question of which CP scheme to use back on the manufacturer OR on the disc producer.

The likelyhood is that it will be some form of 5C/DTCP, but who knows? THe document simply allows for a scheme, but doesn't say which one.

By the way, be warned that the cost to manufacturers for the 1394 parts AND the cost of the software used to run it (not to be confused with the 1394 royalty, which is nominal) can add up VERY quickly.

This old dog anxiously awaits a single-wire connection between DVD-A machines and processors, but he ain't holding his breath -- let alone for something that I can slip in under my kibble budget.

But what do I know, I'm only a dog!

ARF ARF, says Iggy.

[This message has been edited by Iggy The Dog (edited December 16, 2002).]
_________________________
But what do I know, I'm ONLY a dog!

ARF, ARF says Iggy

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#43374 - 12/16/02 09:13 PM Re: Firewire interface for DVD-Audio
ralittle2 Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/29/01
Posts: 70
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Along those lines....

I have heard or read that one advantage that HDMI has over Firewire is the ability to handle uncompressed HDTV signals. But one #$@hole on another forum snapped at me saying that all HD signals are compressed.

I have no idea, but there must be something either in the future or in a certain format that would transmit HDTV in uncompressed form.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Because I really don't.

Thanks,

BTW, I've got upgradeitus too. I want a preamp/processor that can handle all this stuff, and a universal DVD player with digital outputs. Oh, and a new HDTV too.

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#43375 - 12/16/02 09:50 PM Re: Firewire interface for DVD-Audio
sdurani Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 765
Loc: Monterey Park, CA
Quote:
...one #$@hole on another forum snapped at me saying that all HD signals are compressed.
He's right, they all are.
Quote:
...there must be something either in the future or in a certain format that would transmit HDTV in uncompressed form.
For what purpose? As far as I know, there has never been any interest in transmitting, recording or storing (on consumer media) any HDTV signals. Whether you someday get your HDTV over the air, via satellite, through cable, on a tape or disc; it'll always be compressed. Why would you want a pipeline (for home use, no less) that can transmit uncompressed HDTV? There'd be no market for it.

Best,
Sanjay
_________________________
Sanjay

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#43376 - 12/16/02 09:59 PM Re: Firewire interface for DVD-Audio
ralittle2 Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/29/01
Posts: 70
Loc: Atlanta, GA
thanks sdurani, sorry about venting. I actually wasn't questioning the guy, I was curious and think I remember reading somewhere that Firewire was not a good conduit for HDTV as it couldn't pass the signal - and that something like HDMI was the necessary choice for HDTV.

I'd like to think that I'm not losing my mind, but I certainly don't claim to be an authority on the subject.

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#43377 - 12/16/02 11:18 PM Re: Firewire interface for DVD-Audio
Will Offline
Desperado

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 605
Loc: LA's The Place
Quote:

look at the one page in the 1.0 spec that deals with copy protection: Page GI3-13. It basically pushes the question of which CP scheme to use back on the manufacturer OR on the disc producer.

The likelyhood is that it will be some form of 5C/DTCP, but who knows? The document simply allows for a scheme, but doesn't say which one.

This is so confusing...

Did the DVD-Audio Forum neglect to specify what security scheme should be incorporated on top of firewire? Is some additional security specification required, before the DVD-A firewire interface can be used between components built by different vendors?

The audiorevolution.com URL from above is dated December 13, 2002 and said the DVD-Audio Forum adopted FireWire in September for DVD-Audio transmission. But I thought they adopted firewire in concept a year ago, for transmitting digital DVD-A.

Again, this is so confusing...


[This message has been edited by Will (edited December 17, 2002).]

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#43378 - 12/16/02 11:23 PM Re: Firewire interface for DVD-Audio
sdurani Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 765
Loc: Monterey Park, CA
Quote:
I remember reading somewhere that Firewire was not a good conduit for HDTV as it couldn't pass the signal - and that something like HDMI was the necessary choice for HDTV.
Actually, I've read that too (I think maybe in Widescreen Review once), but I've never seen a good argument to support that claim.
Quote:
I'd like to think that I'm not losing my mind, but I certainly don't claim to be an authority on the subject.
You're not losing your mind. In this day and age of everything being delivered via lossy compression, the idea of experiencing uncompressed audio and video is a romantic notion that pops up from time to time. Unfortunately (except for things like DVD-A, which is losslessly compressed) it ain't gonna happen! Sorry, but even something as humble as my family snapshots have (more often than not) gone through lossy JPEG compression at some point. Like it or not, it's the future.

Best,
Sanjay
_________________________
Sanjay

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#43379 - 12/16/02 11:46 PM Re: Firewire interface for DVD-Audio
ralittle2 Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/29/01
Posts: 70
Loc: Atlanta, GA
[/QUOTE]Sorry, but even something as humble as my family snapshots have (more often than not) gone through lossy JPEG compression at some point. [/B][/QUOTE]

I like that analogy. Thanks, it makes me feel a little better about the situation. I may still be a bit confused, but if I can buy a universal player with digital outputs, and a new preamp/processor with inputs and HDMI, then I think I'll be covered for a while.

Cheers,

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#43380 - 12/17/02 12:41 AM Re: Firewire interface for DVD-Audio
Iggy The Dog Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/28/01
Posts: 101
Loc: The Dog House
Sorry, it's a bit hard for us poor pooches to parallel process, so I have to bark these out one at a time:

ralittle & sdrari: As they used to say in the breath mint commercials, "Stop! You're both right!" On one hand, the HD signals are (almost always) compressed in some fashion or another. However, the key is that with DVI/HDMI the signal from the incoming (compressed in some fashion) source is uncompressed to full bandwidth for transport to the display. THe purpose is so that it is (virtually) impossible to record due to the bandwidth requirements. Yes, in theory you could re-encode and record or re-transmit in another fashion, but that is why they will impose a a CP standard of some sort.

Will: The Version 1.0/Revision 0 standard IS dated September 2002, and one can only presume that it is what the Audio Revolution people are barking about.

ALL: As they say on TV: "But wait, there's more..." Having run out of paper for me to go on, my master put down a discarded copy of today's EE Times with an article about how the XCA copy protection standard, long considered to be out of the picture, may resurface thanks to Philips adopting it. My fellow cannine Nipper and his friends were instrumental in developing this, along with the doggies at Zenith, and it uses Smart Cards to offer renewable security as in satellite boxes. Also has the ability to allow copy never/copy once/copy always type of control, along with watermarking, which is what the studios really want. Gee, seeing that makes me wanna pee on it. Better than the Daily News!

Sorry to be the cause of confusion, but all a dog can do is bring the newspaper in from the porch, not write the stories.

But what do I know, I'm only a dog!

ARF ARF, says Iggy
_________________________
But what do I know, I'm ONLY a dog!

ARF, ARF says Iggy

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#43381 - 12/17/02 12:47 AM Re: Firewire interface for DVD-Audio
Will Offline
Desperado

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 605
Loc: LA's The Place
Quote:

look at the one page in the 1.0 spec that deals with copy protection: Page GI3-13. It basically pushes the question of which CP scheme to use back on the manufacturer OR on the disc producer.

The likelyhood is that it will be some form of 5C/DTCP, but who knows? The document simply allows for a scheme, but doesn't say which one.

Are you saying different vendors still don't have enough information to interoperate with each other in a standard way, unless they come up with some sort of side agreement with one another, for copy protection?
Quote:

The Version 1.0/Revision 0 standard IS dated September 2002, and one can only presume that it is what the Audio Revolution people are barking about.

Thanks for the dog-gone clarification. Would you happen to know if it is available online?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited December 17, 2002).]

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#43382 - 12/17/02 12:53 AM Re: Firewire interface for DVD-Audio
Iggy The Dog Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/28/01
Posts: 101
Loc: The Dog House
Will:

As noted, we only bring the paper in from the virtual cyber-porch and leave it to you BIG dogs to figure it all out. All I can do is read the page where it says: "When a DVD player transmits the video/audio data through IEEE1394 Bus (sic), there are some rules of the copy protection system. Refer to the scheme and its compliance rules."

To my dog-brain, that means that such schemes are allowed, but none is specified. Perhaps the Forum will leave it to the RIAA or others to decide which system to use.

AND REMEMBER: This is for DVD-A only, and does NOT obligate SACD to do the same thing if they don't want to.

Sorry, but it just isn't that simple. ANd don't bark at me if I tell you how much it costs to put all of this in a player or processor. It's equal to a couple of month's supply of Kibble snacks for me!

But what do I know, I'm only a dog!

ARF ARF, says Iggy
_________________________
But what do I know, I'm ONLY a dog!

ARF, ARF says Iggy

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