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#43313 - 11/11/02 06:19 PM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
Smart Little Lena Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/09/02
Posts: 1019
Loc: Dallas
Azryan/Charlie,

I'll check on the Panny. But give me a few days, have to 'find' the manual tonight, which may or not be clear particularly on Azryans question, may have to try it to see.
I know I have not thought about locking out the Audio (A) side before. Just the Video.

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#43314 - 11/11/02 06:55 PM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
I'm going to try to look at my Panasonic tonight (RA60, younger and lesser sibling of Lena's RP91). I know that the setup includes the option to set speakers to large, small, or off, but I don't know if the player pays attention to it when handling DVD-Audio discs (the manual seems to say that it is, but I don't trust the manual all that much -- I want to prove to myself that the player can handle it). As for Charlie's question, all I know of is the feature that many players have to disable to video circuits. Of course, even the pure DVD-Audio discs (such as Blue Man Group, which has separate sides for DVD-Audio and DVD-Video) include some video material, and discs with Dolby Digital 5.1 tracks on the same side as the DVD-Audio material -- and on my player, you can (or have to, depending on how you look at it) switch between DVD-Audio and DD 5.1 with the Audio button even if the disc's menu doesn't give the option.

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#43315 - 11/12/02 02:50 PM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
azryan Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 09/10/01
Posts: 222
Thanks all.
So Kevin, no phantom center on the Pioneer, but maybe on other players?

I guessing ALL these DVD-A/SACD players can output a phantom center from the analog outs when playing DD or DTS right???

Meaning they can downmix a phantom center in the player and then you do NOT need to have a center chan RCA cable output.

Or can't they do this even?

Maybe time to start begging Outlaw for this feature on their future disc player I guess!

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#43316 - 11/13/02 08:36 AM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Finally found a minute to toss in a DVD-A and run a test. I had been under the impression that DVD-Audio playback bypassed the speaker settings in the player (delay, bass management, etc.), but the manual reads like DVD-Audio playback makes use of those settings. The manual is apparently not as clear as it should be, because with the center channel disabled it still worked with DVD-Audio discs. Sorry, azryan.

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#43317 - 11/13/02 11:01 AM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
Smart Little Lena Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/09/02
Posts: 1019
Loc: Dallas
Azrayan,

Walk me thru what you want me to try and I will. Not positive this is what you are trying to ask.

If you want the ability to disable the Center and let the mains create a phantom, (although phantom is not addressed in the manual). This is what I tried.

On the Outlaw while in 6-channel Direct, - playing a DVD-A ‘Woman on Top’. I tried disabling the center speaker in the Panny menu. I still got sound out of the center. I stopped and disabled the center channel thru the Outlaw setup. (Disabled in the panny & Outlaw menus). And this worked, I had no center.

On a different disc, again in 6-channel Direct, “Night in Paris” DVD-A. I disabled the center channel in the Panny menu only, the Outlaw was on ‘Center small’. And this worked, I had no center.

There seems to be differences between the discs themselves as to ‘how’ I get there. But on either discs one method or the other I could disable my center.

Let me know if this is not what you are looking for, give me a roadmap and I’ll attempt whatever!.

Just rereading posts above you seem to be checking to see if the center channel information will be downmixed into the fronts. How would I test wheter or not this is so. Since I put the Beethoveen's on line, anytime I run just the fronts (in Stereo bypass) (and here on the multi-channel DVD-A with center disabled) I have the illusion of a center channel running. But not the expertise to judge if the center channel info is just discarded when I disable center or mixed into the fronts?


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited November 13, 2002).]

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#43318 - 11/13/02 01:59 PM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
azryan Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 09/10/01
Posts: 222
Ok Gonk, so you're saying you set the player's center chan. to 'none' (or 'off' or whatever)... and play a DVD-A disc, the player ignores your 'center -none' setting and outputs the center info anyway? That's what you mean right?

Does it ignore this 'center -none' if you try DD or DTS?
Just trying to see if it's a DVD-A thing ONLY.

Lena,

"If you want the ability to disable the Center and let the mains create a phantom, (although phantom is not addressed in the manual). This is what I tried."

Yep. Exactly.

"On the Outlaw while in 6-channel Direct, - playing a DVD-A ‘Woman on Top’. I tried disabling the center speaker in the Panny menu. I still got sound out of the center."

Hmmm... that sounds like what I think Gonk found with his. It ignores your 'center -none' setting it seems.

"I stopped and disabled the center channel thru the Outlaw setup. (Disabled in the panny & Outlaw menus). And this worked, I had no center."

The Outlaw shouldn't need to have it's settings changed for what I'm after. That'd just be turning off the center chan. audio.

"On a different disc, again in 6-channel Direct, “Night in Paris” DVD-A. I disabled the center channel in the Panny menu only, the Outlaw was on ‘Center small’. And this worked, I had no center.There seems to be differences between the discs themselves as to ‘how’ I get there."

Hmmm.. I don't get it. Seems like it worked that time. Weird.
-edit- Ohhhhh.... Maybe that disc has no center chan info.?? are you able to get center audio with that disc in any setting??
I forgot that many discs just don't have a center chan recorded.

"But on either discs one method or the other I could disable my center."

Turning it off on the Outlaw should either just shut off the center audio (no good), OR it's getting the DD version of the disc (defeating the point of it being a DVD-A disc), OR maybe the Outlaw is reprocessing the DVD-A signal to digital then you can hit it w/ full bass manag., delay, downmixed center etc... but this would (at least in theory) defeat the hi-res. aspect of DVD-A.

Did you ONLY have the analog cables plugged in on the second test that seemed to work? Maybe that time the audio was DD coming in one a digital cable??

"Let me know if this is not what you are looking for, give me a roadmap and I’ll attempt whatever!."

Sounds just right what you're doing. There just seems to be a few variables to eliminate though. Can you unplug the digital cable so for sure the Outlaw is only getting the analog outs from your player? And are you sure that "Night in Paris" DVD-A has center info recorded on it?

"-you seem to be checking to see if the center channel information will be downmixed into the fronts."

Yes. Exactly.

"How would I test wheter or not this is so. Since I put the Beethoveen's on line, anytime I run just the fronts (in Stereo bypass) (and here on the multi-channel DVD-A with center disabled) I have the illusion of a center channel running. But not the expertise to judge if the center channel info is just discarded when I disable center or mixed into the fronts?"

The easy test is when the center is ON it should sound very close to the same with it off (depends on how your mains are set up). Should be very clear to you.

A more direct test would be with a disc that obviously has a single vocalist singing dead center so the bulk of her/his voice is recorded in the center only.

If your player in NOT downmixing that center info when you 'set it to', the singer should sound totally weak and MUCH quieter since the mains mostly would just have light 'ambiance' of her/his voice recorded in them. I'll sound like the singer's almost gone.

Did I explain that confusingly enough?? I tried to make it clear, but kinda hard to word.
Basically it should be pretty clear/easy to hear if the center info is lost or downmixed to your mains.

You can test this for sure with DD/DTS DVD's. Play a DVD in 5.1 but unplug the center speaker. You'll tell instantly that the dialouge has been totally gutted.

Then set the Outlaw to 'center -none', and it'll downmix the center info into the mains and (as long as you're sitting dead center on almost anybody's system)it should sound VERY much like you just plugged your center speaker back in (but you didn't).

My wife and I actually find a 'phantom center' more open and seamless than an actual center -part of why I'm asking about if DVD-A/SACD players can do it. Just more amp/speaker cost I'd rather avoid.

THANKS!!!!!


[This message has been edited by azryan (edited November 13, 2002).]

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#43319 - 11/13/02 02:56 PM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
Smart Little Lena Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/09/02
Posts: 1019
Loc: Dallas
I did not try messing with DD or DTS tracks on these 2 discs,…will do. Although the ‘Paris’ DVD-A (which I checked is listed as an A disc on the web) was giving me fits trying to roust either of those 2 (DD/DTS) out of it when I first purchased, (I hijacked a thread possibly in Fav. Demo’s on this very topic). I’ve got my Panny menu’s down better now. So I’ll give it a go again. For the test I just detailed it was only while in 6-channel Direct. Which should disable my optical digital connection, but I will try unhooking this later to verify that by changing menus in the Panny and Outlaw, something is not being thrown (somewhere) into a Digital conversion. I would think it would bypass the optical entirely with 6-Direct selected.
One thing I have found about DVD-A discs are wide variations, in menus, abilities, how you go about accessing tracks, (this could use a little more standardization in this industry).

As regards the sound, I flipped the center on/off and noticed no particular degradation in sound, it changed a hair but I really only listened for this (It was a very quick test) on ‘Women on Top” with vocalists. (Also the majority of the time I was listening from another room!) All information still seemed to be there with center disabled and no noticeable reduction in strength or volume. I wondered however how much a center track might have repeated in the L/R and that was why I asked for clarification on how you wanted it tested.

If you’ll forgive me…all I do these days is work (and the forum) but tonight (very rare for me) I am actually going to an annual gala event. With waiters in tux’s plying me with wine, buffet, live band, and shopping (I try to knock out/start my Christmas shopping here as much as possible for the 35 jillion family members) and have to stop work early today to clean up for this event.

Give me a couple days, I believe I have also aquired at least one or more new choices in DVD-A. (I’ll try a broader demo), and I’ll run it all through its paces, as you suggested. Let me know if you think of anything else you want me to do.

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#43320 - 11/13/02 03:17 PM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Quote:
Ok Gonk, so you're saying you set the player's center chan. to 'none' (or 'off' or whatever)... and play a DVD-A disc, the player ignores your 'center -none' setting and outputs the center info anyway? That's what you mean right?


That's exactly right -- setting the center to "none" in the DVD player made no difference to the DVD-Audio playback. It still played the center channel.

Quote:
Does it ignore this 'center -none' if you try DD or DTS?
Just trying to see if it's a DVD-A thing ONLY.


Didn't test it with a DD or DTS track -- was running late for work. Since the settings are specifically intended for the player's DD and DTS decoding, though, I'd hope it paid attention to the settings.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review
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#43321 - 11/14/02 05:18 PM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
Smart Little Lena Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/09/02
Posts: 1019
Loc: Dallas
Azryan, just go to the blackboard and write 100 times. Sony 60” LCD’s are not that bad.
Now that we have that over with, follows the further test results.

(Aren’t I just wicked….. )

I had 4 selections:
1: Silverline: Dream Suite III: DVD-A, DTS, DD 3.2/1
2: Silverline: Night In Paris: DVD-A, DTS, DD 3.2/1
3: Silverline: Women on Top: DVD-A, DTS DD 3.2/1
4: Maverick: Alanis Morissette, Under Rug Swept: DVD-A DD
Checked all discs first before starting this time, in attempt to find heavy infor localized to the center channel. I checked all 4 discs, starting the first min. of each track and each had info in the center that was basically repeated in the FL/FR.
In other words the simple ‘gut test’ from a DVD-video dialogue only in center channel would not apply to any of my DVD-A selections as too much information is repeated across the fronts in all channels.

Disconnected the optical digital cable from the P-91 and the 950.
Ran the center test again: With Center speaker disabled in the P-91 menu, set to Small on the Outlaw.
No center sound from Disc # 1/2/4
Center speaker disabled in the P-91 and center disabled in the 950. No center sound Disc #3.

My personal thoughts: You can use the P-91 and the 950 and purchase DVD-A’s and get a majority of the experience you are looking for.

There was no difference at all on many tracks especially as regards #1/2 (classical) in fact on a couple of tracks it did broaden the stage to a favorable slight effect in a way I might prefer if I was optimizing each track, (but I won’t, - I’ll leave my center in play). The only Degradation was on #4 Disc, where I needed to push dB to get the same effect as with center. I also noted on this disc only that I really needed to push calibration up on my FL about 2-4 dbs. . Then it was a fair match. I did not optimize my mains for this test, as if I intended to run them without a center at all times.
Morissette’s vocal did not gut out, nor disappear but there was a localization and crispness to her vocals I would miss without the center. (My preference). I feel having a center available just broadens your options.

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#43322 - 11/15/02 02:38 PM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
massi2u Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/01/02
Posts: 18
Having selected 2-channel 96/24 format of a
DVD-Audio disc, shouldn't the 950 read
PCM 96k from the digital input?
I have four DVD-A all display PCM 48k.
The player will allow a choice to down sample
which I have tried both ways,still no 96k.

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