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#43293 - 11/06/02 05:49 PM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
charlie Offline
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Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 1176
Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin C Brown:
But by using discrete test tones & an SPL meter, the "problem" is very apparent.


Are you finding a tone at a frequency where it is attenuated and sent to both speakers, then measuring the acoustically summed result or how are you doing this?

At one time I regretted my choice to go full range all around as a waste of resources. I'm starting to revise that opinion ...
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Charlie

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#43294 - 11/06/02 09:20 PM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
Kevin C Brown Offline
Desperado

Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 1054
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
Very simply: I use a discrete test tone CD.

I play the crossover freq (I tried this with both 80 Hz and 60 Hz for the mains, and made no diff), and adjust the variable phase knob on my sub knob until I get the max SPL at my listening position (RS meter on a tripod there, across the room from the sub). Coax digital connection into the 950 1st. Mains and sub on. All levels previous matched. The setting is about 9 o'clock on the variable phase knob.

I do the same exact test, using an analog 2 channel input. (Not bypass mode, but A-to-D'ed, processed, then D-to-A'ed.) I get the same 9 o'clock position. (The knob goes from about 7 o'clock to about 4 o'clock. Maybe 240 deg?)

I repeat the test a 3rd time. This time I use the front L + R channels of the 5.1 analog input. I engage the 80 Hz analog crossover. When I adjust the phase knob for the max SPL, I get about 3 o'clock. Very repeatible. Will and at least one other person have also seen the same thing.

Charlie- You did the right thing. If I had the space, and the denaro, I would have went all full range too. Then you don't have to mess with crossovers at all!
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If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ... New and Improved !!


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#43295 - 11/07/02 11:59 AM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
charlie Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 1176
I wonder if it's the crossover or the digital time delays? Also, I wonder if you could use the digital time delays to compensate?
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Charlie

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#43296 - 11/07/02 03:51 PM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
Kevin C Brown Offline
Desperado

Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 1054
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
Charlie- Finally someone who understands what I did! You are exactly right, and in fact Outlaws themselves mentioned that the delay present for processing the digital crossover might be responsible. (I kind of thought that they were getting more phase shift from the analog crossover, simply because it was analog.)

I put this in another thread, but... I *would* be able to change the phase relationship of all the mains vs only the LFE channel in my DVD-A/SACD player by simply changing the relationship between how far the sub is away vs the rest of the speakers. The problem? Doesn't work for bass crossed over from the mains to the sub in the 950, and my DVD-A/SACD player doesn't do time alignment on SACD (just DVD-A).

But now that you mentioned it, one solution might be to adjust the distances in the 950 to match the phase shift of the digital crossover to the analog one (the reverse of changing distance settings in my DVD-A/SACD player). Just that that would "change" the overall time alignment of my system wrt CDs, DVDs, etc. Something to think about though. And, that might explain why some people don't see this: they don't have the distances set (correctly) in the 950.

Neat stuff to think about!
_________________________
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ... New and Improved !!


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#43297 - 11/07/02 03:58 PM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
soundhound Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/10/02
Posts: 1857
Loc: Gusev Crater, Mars
Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin C Brown:
.....the delay present for processing the digital crossover might be responsible.[/B]


Kevin:

This could be tested by noting if the phase difference is greater as the crossover frequency is increased, i.e. the problem is less worse at a 40Hz crossover than a 150Hz crossover. If it _is_ a latency issue in the 950, it would represent a constant delay, which would effect higher frequencies more than low ones, relative to the bass arriving from the other speakers.

Anyway, something to geek-out with



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 07, 2002).]

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#43298 - 11/07/02 04:03 PM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
charlie Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 1176
Or for $200 you could use an UltraCurve for both EQ and time delay on SACD LFE - use one channel inline with the SACD for delay and (optionally) the other inline with the sub output for EQ. Even if you don't trust the A->D->A process for most signals, the LFE stuff should be OK.

Or use 2 of the 100 UltraCurve presets....

Or compensate for digital inputs and engage the relay bypass for SACD....

My first unit should be here any day. The calibrated mic was backordered though.
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Charlie

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#43299 - 11/08/02 12:38 AM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
Davis S Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 65
Loc: Chino Hills,CA,USA
(smart a$$ mode on) Does anybody actually listen to music with the 950? Or does y'all just sit around and measure test tones and the like:>(smart-a$$ mode off)

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#43300 - 11/08/02 02:00 AM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
bossobass Offline
Desperado

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 430
Loc: charlotte, nc usa
Quote:
Originally posted by Davis S:
(smart a$$ mode on) Does anybody actually listen to music with the 950? Or does y'all just sit around and measure test tones and the like:>(smart-a$$ mode off)

__________________________________________

there is a lot to be said for the technical understanding of all of this gear, but it definitely takes some of the magic out of the music.

once, in the 70's, while on tour, paul mccartney decided to go into a bass equipment specialty shop in new orleans. when the owner saw him he immediately thought of something to say besides 'wow', and asked him "so, paul, what strings do you play?" mccartney answered, "long, shiny ones."
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"Time wounds all heels." John Lennon

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#43301 - 11/08/02 02:22 AM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
Kevin C Brown Offline
Desperado

Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 1054
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
I'll say that seeing some of the scientificness in action, gave me a new appreciation for what the manufacturers go through to get us gear that we can use to listen to a good tune or two...
_________________________
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ... New and Improved !!


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#43302 - 11/08/02 06:30 AM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
soundhound Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/10/02
Posts: 1857
Loc: Gusev Crater, Mars
Quote:
Originally posted by Davis S:
(smart a$$ mode on) Does anybody actually listen to music with the 950? Or does y'all just sit around and measure test tones and the like:>(smart-a$$ mode off)


Hey, have you heard that awsome 1Khz test tone that Hewlett-Packard released - I hear it''s go'in platinum on the record charts!

-just funnin' with 'ya

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