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#43263 - 10/13/02 02:19 PM Wow! DVD-A/SACD
bbarden Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 27
With all this talk of bass management, hiss, inverted sub phase, etc. I wanted to post my very recent positive experience with a new player I am enjoying with my 950. I purchased the Pioneer DV-45a DVD-V/DVD-A/SACD player. About 2 hours ago I had my first taste of DVD-A, namely Chip Davis' Fresh Aire 8 and Blue Man Group Audio. I've yet to hear SACD, but I understand it can sound even better than DVD-A, if that's so I'll really be impressed because the two DVD-A discs I have simply have blown me away. The resolution, dynamics, range...WOW! If you're looking for a 'universal' player to go with your 950, check out the Pioneer 45a and 47a (or 47ai).

Stop fussing and enjoy.

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#43264 - 10/13/02 06:20 PM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
Kevin C Brown Offline
Desperado

Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 1054
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
Dude- I'm using the 45a with my 950.

The analog 80 Hz crossover on the 5.1 inputs is about 180 deg out of phase with the digital crossover used for digital inputs and 2 channels inputs that are A-to-D'ed, processed, and then D-to-A'ed. Will confirmed this on his system too.
_________________________
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ... New and Improved !!


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#43265 - 10/13/02 07:54 PM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
MCH Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/14/02
Posts: 128
Mr. Brown
Do you think then the 45A is not a good buy at this point because of the weak bass managemnet? Or is the bass management acceptable for most systems?
Maybe I should wait for the next generation. Or possibly the new Yamaha 2300 will get it right.

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#43266 - 10/13/02 08:23 PM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
bbarden Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 27
So far, I've not used the 950 analog 'bass management', I'm using the 45a 'bass management', I believe the crossover for 'small' speakers is 100Hz (I think, not sure where I read it).

Is sub phase still inverted when not using 950 80Hz switch?

Short of a DVD-A or SACD multi-channel AVIA, how can I go about testing phase? other than listening...which so far I cannot tell a difference 90 or 180 out. I've got a Vandy V2W.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin C Brown:
Dude- I'm using the 45a with my 950.

The analog 80 Hz crossover on the 5.1 inputs is about 180 deg out of phase with the digital crossover used for digital inputs and 2 channels inputs that are A-to-D'ed, processed, and then D-to-A'ed. Will confirmed this on his system too.

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#43267 - 10/14/02 12:03 AM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
santaclarajim Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 59
Loc: Santa Clara, California
Quote:
Originally posted by bbarden:
So far, I've not used the 950 analog 'bass management', I'm using the 45a 'bass management', I believe the crossover for 'small' speakers is 100Hz (I think, not sure where I read it).

Is sub phase still inverted when not using 950 80Hz switch?

Short of a DVD-A or SACD multi-channel AVIA, how can I go about testing phase? other than listening...which so far I cannot tell a difference 90 or 180 out. I've got a Vandy V2W.



All,

heard and saw the Dv-45a at Kevin Brown's house.

Quite impressive!

I bought one today myself on ebay.

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim

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#43268 - 10/14/02 01:07 AM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
Jed M Offline
Desperado

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 526
Loc: Home on the range
Wow! "Mr. Brown"

Moving up in the world Kevin. I guess you are now the second most famous Kevin Brown in California.

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#43269 - 10/14/02 02:32 AM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
Kevin C Brown Offline
Desperado

Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 1054
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
Except that I dabble in some recreational ice hockey every now and then, and haven't picked up a baseball in years...

The "out of phase" problem is with the 950, not the 45a. (Sorry!) Everything comes out of the 45a in phase. (Assuming you choose the distances correctly, which don't work anyway for SACD. But my tests included that.)

Even if using the BM in the 45a, it still might be out of phase. The problem is that *all* crossovers, whether digital or analog induce a phase shift. In the 950's case, the shift is *different* between the 2, such that they are about 180 deg different.

All you need to check for phase is a discrete tone test disc. (I very quickly showed SCJim how to do it last night! When we do the Anthem vs 950 face off, we'll repeat it at his place.)

Check out...

http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000558.html

The "best" solution for now is... Set the phase correct for the digital coax/optical inputs. Then when you switch to the 5.1 analog inputs, just either flip the phase switch on your sub, or twiddle the phase knob about a 1/2 turn. In both cases, all my speakers are small.

I agree, the 950 and 45a is a very nice combo. But with the phase correct, we can all be sure we are getting the best sound possible...
_________________________
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ... New and Improved !!


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#43270 - 10/14/02 11:19 AM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
surroundophile Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 68
Loc: Chicago, Il. USA
bbarden:
If you are using the 5.1 analog outs of the dv45 into the 950's 6 channel analog in, you ARE getting some bass management in the 950. The bass from the "5" channels is ALWAYS redirected to the sub ".1" channel, no matter what position the switch on the back is in. This is the double bass thread discussed much here.

As far as the out of phase problem, I DO NOT have it, and don't understand how you guys have it.
I have a Pioneer DV-47Ai. Connected via optical, and 5.1 analog. Digital Bass Management is set to small and 80Hz. Analog Bass Management is on (rear switch). I have a DVD-Audio disc that checks the bass phase, depending on crossover point. This track is in BOTH DVD-Audio AND in Dolby Digital on the disc.
In 5.1 analog (DVD-A), speakers & sub are IN PHASE. Switching to Coax-DVD and accessing the Dolby Digital track (same as DVD-A track), speakers & sub again are IN PHASE.

Am I misunderstanding something here?

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#43271 - 10/14/02 11:20 AM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
surroundophile Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 68
Loc: Chicago, Il. USA
bbarden:
If you are using the 5.1 analog outs of the dv45 into the 950's 6 channel analog in, you ARE getting some bass management in the 950. The bass from the "5" channels is ALWAYS redirected to the sub ".1" channel, no matter what position the switch on the back is in. This is the double bass thread discussed much here.

As far as the out of phase problem, I DO NOT have it, and don't understand how you guys have it.
I have a Pioneer DV-47Ai. Connected via optical, and 5.1 analog. Digital Bass Management is set to small and 80Hz. Analog Bass Management is on (rear switch). I have a DVD-Audio disc that checks the bass phase, depending on crossover point. This track is in BOTH DVD-Audio AND in Dolby Digital on the disc.
In 5.1 analog (DVD-A), speakers & sub are IN PHASE. Switching to Coax-DVD and accessing the Dolby Digital track (same as DVD-A track), speakers & sub again are IN PHASE.

Am I misunderstanding something here?

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#43272 - 10/14/02 04:03 PM Re: Wow! DVD-A/SACD
Kevin C Brown Offline
Desperado

Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 1054
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
Quote:
The bass from the "5" channels is ALWAYS redirected to the sub ".1" channel, no matter what position the switch on the back is in. This is the double bass thread discussed much here.


If the switch in the back is set to ON, there is no double bass. All bass (LFE and speakers below the crossover) is sent to the sub, but all the speakers are high passed too.

The double bass only occurs if you have the switch in the off position, then all the bass is sent to the mains *and* the sub.

SOP, go take a look at the link I provided. Explains (maybe not very well! ) the issue with the 950's digital and analog crossovers...
_________________________
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ... New and Improved !!


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