I am able to max out the volume on my 950. It is loud at the max voulme but not unberable. And my room isn't the largest either (12x20).

I remember reading a post that said 950 could drive any amp to clipping. My amp shows no sign of clipping at max volume. I tried this with various sources DVD (multiple), VCR and SAT. The sound level is slightly higher with DVDs compared to VCR or SAT. The sub gets really loud when the volume dial on the sub amp is only half way and am happy about that.

Has anyone else noticed this? I am pretty happy with the quality of the sound comming out of 950, but, concerned that there isn't much juice left, if I ever need it. I am usually watching SAT/VCR at 0db and DVDs around -8db. My old onkyo 797 seemed like it could go louder (I have to admit that I didn't do a side by side comparison, as I returned the 797 long before I got my 950).

Here is my setup..
Outlaw 950
Sherwood NewCastle 9080 amp
Magnepan 1.6QR fronts
Toshiba 65 H82 built in speakers as Center
Infinity H10's as surrounds
HSU sub (cylinder ~25Hz - can't remember model#)

All speakers are set to small, fronts are crossed over at 60Hz, rears and center @ 80Hz.

Thanks,
-4HT

I'm using a Model 750 and an old Parasound HCA-800 (for surround back channel) to drive Paradigm Reference speakers, and don't get to 0dB normally. I tend to watch TV (digital cable or VCR) at around -22 to -18 and DVD's at around -18 to -12. CD's are anywhere from -25 or -20 under normal circumstances to around -10 if it's just me at home and I'm really cranking it.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Have you calibrated your system? Is 0 db, reference level? If so, I doubt you would max out your volume as maxing out your volume would translate to 115db at the listening position and you would run screaming from the room .

I use a Carver 705TX with Jamo Concert 11 (4 ohm speakers). At normal volumes for me: Digital music through satelite (-25dB) CD's (-25), DVD-A (-30). If I crank it up to +5dB the amp starts to clip. At this volome level the measured loudness on my sound meter is 105dB to 110dB. More than enough for me.

TPS

I have adjusted my system to have the same sound level from all speakers. Left is at 0, center -4, right -2, surrounds -4 and sub -4.

I do have the RS sound meter, but, don't know how to calibrate 0db on 950 to reference level. What does reference level mean anyway?

Thanks,
-4HT

Try changing your point of reference for callibrations. Change these:

Left at 0, center -4, right -2, surrounds -4 and sub -4.

to these:

Left at +4, center 0, right +2, surrounds 0 and sub 0.

That should increase your max 4 db. You can do more or less, just change them all at the same time.

4HT,

Try following the procedure described in the manual for calibrating your system. With all sources off, set the volume to 0dB, set the RS meter to C weighting, slow response and set the dial to 70. Go through the calibration menu and adjust the individual levels on all the speakers until the needle is at +5 on the meter. On this scale, the +5 will be 75 dB. This will be considered reference level using the internal test tones in the 950.

Let us know.

I had the same trouble with maxing out volume on my red dot 950 (but not with the original 950 I owned previously) so I upped the trim on the red dot 950 by 5 db on all channels.

The Outlaws said the red dots are only 3 db lower in volume than the original 950, but to me, it sure seemed like the reduction in volume was more than 3.

Upping the volume+trim does increase the hiss very slightly on mine (which I only discovered recently, when Soundhound showed me that hiss does increase slightly when the volume+trim levels are increased towards max).

Bumping the volume+hiss allows me to play the red dot loud enough, at least for me. I suggest you try bumping the trim by 5 db. If that doesn't work, try a 10 db trim increase. Good luck!

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 02, 2002).]

Another benchmark, for what it's worth.

I play the 950 at ~-20 dB or so for music, and ~-5 for DVDs. (Cals all around 0 dB though.)

On the Sony TA-E9000ES, it was ~-50 dB for CDs, and ~-30 dB for DVDs. All cals around 0 dB.

"On the Sony TA-E9000ES, it was ~-50 dB for CDs, and ~-30 dB for DVDs. All cals around 0 dB."

So zero would be reference? That would mean you listened to DVD's whose maximum volume was 75 db (30 db below reference). Dialogue would be around 55db. Ambient noise in a room around 45db. I take it you do a lot of late night listening?

4HT
I have found the same thing. I can max out the volume on my red dot. No way could I do this with my old 950, I could crank the volume up to where you just couldnt or wouldnt want to hear it any louder. It surprised me last week when I cranked up a few of my favorites. I wanted just that little bit more, and it wasnt there. First I thought no way, whats up. My amp was no where near clipping. My room is 14 x 20 and it can take some high volume. I am not saying that the sound was not clean or anything like that, it was great. It just does not have the same level of punch. Is the Hiss missing in my red dot, yes. I believe that volume was the trade off for the fix. And if I had never owned the orginal 950 I would not have know the difference. This isnt a deal breaker But I wish I could have had both, Hiss less and very Loud.

DOBEMAN,

See my post, above.

TG: No, I match levels within themselves, but not to "reference". (I should have been clear about that.)

My point was: out of the box, the Sony has more "headroom" than the Outlaw.

Without calibrating your system to reference, there's no way you know whether you're really "maxing out" your volume, or your just not providing enough voltage at the amp. That's why you calibrate your system: to make sure that the volume levels you obtain are matching the reference. Any talk about maximum volume without proper system calibration is meaningless.

Having the same problem 4HT, with my brand new 950 that I got on Tuesday. It may be that I don't know what I am doing yet, but it seems funny that I have to adjust the trim to something that is non standard to get the right volume of sound out of it. When the 950 is calibrated using the 950 signal at 0db, the output from my speakers at full volume +10db is around spl 85db. I also have to crank the trim down on the subwoofer to -12 db to keep the house from coming apart.

MeanGene, I prefer having the trim set low on the subwoofer like you have, so that, when I want to crank the sub, like in a movie, there's headroom in the trim setting to do it. I could adjust my sub so the trim setting is closer to zero, but I don't since I like having the trim setting deep in negative territory.

"Having the same problem 4HT, with my brand new 950 that I got on Tuesday. It may be that I don't know what I am doing yet, but it seems funny that I have to adjust the trim to something that is non standard to get the right volume of sound out of it. When the 950 is calibrated using the 950 signal at 0db, the output from my speakers at full volume +10db is around spl 85db. I also have to crank the trim down on the subwoofer to -12 db to keep the house from coming apart. "

You should be getting 75db at 0db on the scale. That would make the system calibrated using the test tones. If you're using the Avia, then 85db at 0db would be correct. Subwoofer settings have more to do with the volume on your sub and how that's set.

Maybe it's just me, but does anyone watch a movie at a maximum volume of 85db spl?

What is being said is that if you do calibrate your system at the 0db reference level you will never get near 115db spl. I can only get 85db spl calibrated that way.

"What is being said is that if you do calibrate your system at the 0db reference level you will never get near 115db spl. I can only get 85db spl calibrated that way."

Ah, no. The test tones are calibrated at 30db below reference. Thus, if you set your volume control to 0db, turn on the internal test tones, and calibrate each speaker to read 75db with a RS sound pressure meter, your maximum SPL for movies with the volume set at 0db will be 105db (75 + 30). For the subwoofer, it's actually 115db, but let's not confuse the issue.

No, I don't think so. I know the Sony can play louder. Maybe it's just a question of gain or headroom or whatever, but it's a fact on my system.

I normally played CDs at -50 dB or so on the Sony. I actually accidentally turned it on once around -20 dB. I *know* the Outlaw can't play as loud as I had the Sony. I thought I had blown a tweeter...

"No, I don't think so."

Well, I know so. Unless you have a reference (which is the beauty of the system) any talk of maximum volume is meaningless, whether you think so or not. Read page 27 of the Manual, where it talks about channel calibration. The reason you hear the term "reference" is there IS a reference. If you don't calibrate to reference, any talk about relative and maximum volume is truly meaningless, because there is no reference, whether you think so or not.

The reference is that I know how far the +/- goes for calibration on both the Sony and 950. There's no way the 950 can play as loud as the Sony, even with the cals maxed out on the 950, and the Sony as is...

Sigh. Try this. Set up both processors using their internal reference tones so that 0db = 75db on the RS meter. Put on T-2, Opening Scene, Fight Club Scenes 34 and 35, or any other sonic blockbuster. Set the volume at 0db. Both processors should/will be equally loud, provided they are calibrated properly, and they both will blast you out of the room at both these films loudest parts. If they vary in loudness, you have not calibrated the systems properly, believe it if you will.

Yo! What's all this about calibration? Isn't 4HT saying at the 950's maximum volume control position his sound level is nowhere near clipping? Shouldn't he be looking at 950 output level in volts and his amp's input level required for full rated output?

Yo. You see there are two ways to increase the output of the 950: via the volume control or VIA THE CHANNEL CALIBRATION MENU. Now our friend 4HT has very ineffecient speakers. His Maggies are like 85 db efficient, on a good day. My M&K S-150's are 90-91db efficient and -2 gets me to reference at 0DB with my amp. I would wager that 4HT's inefficient Maggies should be set at around +2 or +3. He instead has them set at 0 and -2 so he is losing around 5db minimum of output because he hasn't calibrated his system. Reference is not relative, it is absolute. If you haven't calibrated your system so that you know what reference is, all this talk about output level is meaningless. Relative output means squat. Absolute output calibrated to reference: we can talk. Some of you rather than arguing from ignorance should try and learn something. Maybe then you'll be able to solve your output issues. The THX/Dolby Digital system used for films is a closed system with a well defined reference. If you care about the reference great, we can talk intelligently. If not, go wallow in your ignorance. Sorry to be so harsh, but some people clearly revel in arguing for arguing's sake with no desire to learn something.

I agree with Tony,there is no point in arguing,my own reference level when i am pushing is 82db for a theoretical max of 112db,Believe me when i say THAT IS LOUD....

I *still* say the Sony plays louder. See, it has 11 on the volume knob. The Outlaw only goes up to 10. The Sony is one louder.


OK, I get it. One difference is that the Sony's volume knob reads - 100 to 0 dB, whereas the Outlaw's is -80 to +10. But out of the box, everything is naturally about 30 "dB" lower (or higher, depending on how you look at it) for the Sony compared to the Outlaw, hence the perception it plays louder.

There actually is no mention of referencing in the Sony manual, just balancing levels. And even for the Outlaw, it says that if 0 dB at 75 dB is too loud, to use -10 dB. But then it's not absolutely referenced anymore.

Bottom line, both are plenty loud enough for me...


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited October 03, 2002).]

Kevin, I don't know what model Sony processor you have, but my Sony EP9ES does not have a 'reference zero' setting on it's volume control. Therefore it depends on where I have the volume knob when I set the level using the internal trim settings for how much 'top end' max volume I get.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 03, 2002).]

Ok guys, I calibrated my system as recommended above. 950 test tones Vol @0, RS Sound Meter weighting 70 C/Slow Response and readings of +5 (I should say that the RS meter reading was fluctuating as much as +/-1; I settled at what I felt was closest to +5).

Here are my new channel settings:
Magnepan 1.6QR fronts = L+7; R+6
Tosh 65H82 Spkr Center = +3
Infinity HT10 surr = L+2; R+2

(Wasn't sure how to calibrate the sub, so I put it at -6). Happy to notice that there was no hissing from my speakers with the new settings.

I played a protion of Monsters Inc DVD and I felt that volume level between -2 and 0 on 950 dial was about right. I will try other dvds over the weekend and will post my findings.

Thanks for all the feedback!

-4HT

"Here are my new channel settings:
Magnepan 1.6QR fronts = L+7; R+6
Tosh 65H82 Spkr Center = +3
Infinity HT10 surr = L+2; R+2"

Bingo! So you were running the fronts between 7 and 8 db too low. You should be fine now. Good luck.

SH: I have the TA-E9000ES. If I turn the volume all the way down, I get minus infinity (muted) on the display, 1 click up is - 100 dB. If I turn the volume knob all the way up, it gets to 0 dB.



[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited October 03, 2002).]

My 950 feels quiet, even with the channel calibration maxed out. See my thread, "Pass-Throughs vs. Digital Decoding: Volume Difference?"

brendon

[This message has been edited by bpcmusic (edited October 07, 2002).]

My internal test tones were 3 dB below the 75dB tones on the VE DVD.

Same as mine. I don't know why they did it this way. Oh well.....

-10 is the volume setting where I calibrate my 950 using the internal test tones. Individual Speaker level calibrations to 75dB occur in my system at no higher trim level than +2 on any one channel. For the rears, settings are all in the - trim numbers. When I watch DVD movies at reference level (ave), my volume is at -6 or -5 for movies like Gladiator and at -10 to -12 for LOTR(which seems to have a pumped audio soundtrack).

The only individual speaker trim level I ever have to touch is the subwoofer, which greatly depends on the DVD, movie or mode being used for playback.

I cannot imagine how loud it would be if I played back any DVD at 0 or + volumes?


[This message has been edited by merc (edited October 08, 2002).]

You are playing your system above reference level, Merc, which is very unusual. Most people can run their (non-Outlaw) systems 20 decibels below reference and it still feels loud. Something is fishy.

WHAT? DID YOU SAY YOU WANT TO GO FISHING??

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

I want to go fishing.

"Biggest catfish I ever saw!"

How would I test if the system really is performing as the calibration suggests it should? I mean, everything checks out at 75db, but at what should be 100db it's much quieter than expected. I don't think the volume is following the correct log scale up to full output.

If you have the 950s main volume control at "00" when you set main and surrounds to 75db on the RadioShack sound level meter (weighting to "C" and averaging to "slow"), then you have calibrated it so that the film _should_ play back at the same level as it did when it was mixed. Contrary to popular practice, I just set my sub by ear for what I consider to my liking.

HOWEVER - calibrating your speaker levels to 75db is not gospel!

If you consider the volume level to be inadequate with the recommended setup, do the same calibration but do it _either_ with the main volume control at minus 10db (-10) _or_ adjust for a sound level of 85db verses 75db. Either way will give you 10db more volume. Ideally your power amps will have input level controls. If this is the case, set all the trims in the 950 to "0" and adjust for 75 or 85db by the level controls on your power amps. If your power amps do not have input level controls, use the trims in the 950 to set the level. If you do it by raising the trims in the 950, just be aware that that increases the hiss somewhat from the 950.

Since the advent of Home Theatre, no preamp/processors that I am aware of will drive the power amps into clipping (calibrated for reference level) unless they are of pretty low wattage and/or your speakers are very inefficient. There is nothing wrong with this, and you're not missing out on anything, it's just that the manufacturers consider that most people would never play a movie at more than 10db or so louder than the 'reference' level. Personally, I do play some movies at near max level if I really want to shake the house. Some CDs are recorded at a lower level (especially classical and some jazz) and the range of the main volume control of the 950 is not adequate. I bypass the 950 in that case to a stereo preamp I have in-line with my main left and right front speakers.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 18, 2002).]

I guess the point is, as has been previously stated, the 950/770 is not as loud as the inferior products they replaced. My 5x135 Marantz went louder.

770 does not have any gain controls that I am aware of.

Well, I really don't want to tick anyon eoff, but distortion is often perceived as 'loudness'. When I got my first powerful amplifier (A Carver m1.5t) I was amazed how 'quiet' 115 db could be...

Very clean loud music sounds different than most other loud music.....

charlie: AMEN.

most people should check their listening levels with the spl. surprising to most when it's clean sound.

You should ask Outlaw for the rev1.85 firmware update: It makes the main volume control go to "11" instead of "10" - one louder



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 18, 2002).]

SA: I thought the same thing too, but not true. You have to "reference" the 950 1st. And, you can "reference" it to any value you want (up to +10 dB on the cals), to get any loudness you want.

SH: When I 1st started reading your very last post, I thought you knew something we didn't about firmware revs!