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#37362 - 06/05/02 10:53 PM Re: 192kHz DAC vs 96kHz chips
Steve in Sterling Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 51
Loc: Sterling, Va
Would those be HDCD cd's?
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#37363 - 06/06/02 04:10 AM Re: 192kHz DAC vs 96kHz chips
Kevin C Brown Offline
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Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 1054
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
No, HDCDs are not 24/96's.

HDCDs are simple linear PCM 16/44.1 discs that have been encoded differently some how... (Filtering, DPS'ed, sound shaped; help... )
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#37364 - 06/06/02 11:01 AM Re: 192kHz DAC vs 96kHz chips
Matthew Hill Offline
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 1434
Loc: Mount Laurel, NJ
I thought HDCD was 20/44.1 ... that it's "claim to fame" was that extra four bits per sample which gave increased dynamic range.

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#37365 - 06/06/02 08:34 PM Re: 192kHz DAC vs 96kHz chips
Kevin C Brown Offline
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Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 1054
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
Matthew- HDCDs may claim to have 20 bit *resolution*, somehow due to how the signal is encoded (...), but the CD linear PCM red book is strictly 16/44.1.
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#37366 - 06/07/02 11:16 AM Re: 192kHz DAC vs 96kHz chips
Matthew Hill Offline
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 1434
Loc: Mount Laurel, NJ
Maybe I'm confused, but I thought HDCDs were not red book.

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#37367 - 06/07/02 08:49 PM Re: 192kHz DAC vs 96kHz chips
Kevin C Brown Offline
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Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 1054
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
They have to be red book, otherwise how could a normal (non-HDCD) player play them?

I keep hoping someone will get motivated and look up HDCD on Google or something and fill in the blanks here...
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#37368 - 06/08/02 02:47 AM Re: 192kHz DAC vs 96kHz chips
bigmac Offline
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Registered: 06/02/02
Posts: 52
HDCDs are still red book audio CDs. They hide codes in lower order bits. On a regular CD player, this isn't audible -- way below normal sound levels. An HDCD equiped decoder recognizes these flags, and uses them to actively alter the playback sound. This includes dynamic range expansion, and some filtering/dithering effects.

HDCDs developer's claim this offers _equivalent_ quality to higher bit rates, and higher bit depths.

Of course, they also claim that it improves playback quality on non-HDCD devices, too.

Does it really sound better?? Like most audio things, there is no clear answer. I have a HDCD player. Although I _think_ I can tell a difference, I probably couldn't in a blind test.

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#37369 - 06/08/02 03:27 AM Re: 192kHz DAC vs 96kHz chips
Kevin C Brown Offline
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Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 1054
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
big mac- Thanks!

Sony also has this thing (in the DAT world) called Super Bit Mapping. Also utilizes simple linear PCM 16/44.1. But what it does, is to move the "noise" from the audio spectrum where humans hearing is more sensitive, to a part of the spectrum where it's less sensitive.

Sort of like a filter , but not really.

The wierd thing? Test measurements say that with SBM, it's worse, but when people listen, it's better. The claim is 20 bit resolution in terms of *apparent* signal to noise ratio.
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#37370 - 06/10/02 08:18 AM Re: 192kHz DAC vs 96kHz chips
psklenar Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 479
Loc: Southern New England, USA
I thought HDCD's did require a special player or an external decoder fed via the digital out? I do know that XRCD's do not require any special player or decoder and they meet the redbook standard but still mananage to fit more than "normal" data on the discs. I haven't found an XRCD that I already have on standard redbook or SACD, so I can't compare, but the one I picked up to check out the format sounds very good (Count Basie - Basie's Big Band)

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#37371 - 06/10/02 07:09 PM Re: 192kHz DAC vs 96kHz chips
bigmac Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/02/02
Posts: 52
HDCDs will play in any standard player.

I often wonder if the sound quality from these special formats is really due to the formats, or just special care taken during mastering/remastering.

I have a CD from Audiophile, has a piano recording done simultaneously through multiple formats. Analog, various tape speeds, different digital formats, some active filtering/shaping, and HDCD. The change among the various analog, and from analog to digital is pretty easy to pick out. I'd have a hard time being honest about being able to tell the difference between straight 16 bit/44 CD and HDCD.

So, if a disc has been remastered as part of going to HDCD, I would be suspect about any quality differences really resulting from HDCD itself.

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