Obviously, if "The Outlaws" had ANY good news at all.......they would have posted it either here on the Saloon (which they no doubt monitor) or as a News Update on their web site.
These guys are (I assume) intellegent business folks who understand marketing, as well as their customer base. And if they do in fact monitor/moderate this forum site, they surely know that their loyal customer base is disintegrating every minute they remain silent on these issues with the 950.

I too am one of many HT enthusiasts who have $$$ burning a hole in my pocket. I've got a serious Jones to buy a new HT set up....yesterday. If I don't hear any news (good or bad) soon........I'm just going to pull the trigger elsewhere. Maybe, just maybe, this 950 has got so many problems, that it isn't worth waiting for. And maybe that's why these boys aren't talking.

Which brings me to my original point. They know that they need to communicate with us, yet they don't. This tells me that (at least from their perspective) whatever thay do have to say must be pretty bad news. They obviuosly believe that any statement from them regarding the situation with the 950 would cause even greater harm than their deafening silence.

Evidently there must be some pretty nasty news out there regarding the AT 2000.

Evidently there must be some pretty ugly updates on the shipping status of the 950 itself.

Maybe they spoke too soon as to the capabilities of this new dream 950 pre-amp.

Maybe they've gotten their #^*$?@ in a sling over patents or something.

One thing is for sure, that the consumers will continue to speculate until "The Outlaws" themselves come forth and level with us, somehow, someway.

Or maybe, just maybe, "....all that glitters is not gold."


[This message has been edited by dsmith5740 (edited January 21, 2002).]

dsmith5740

Easy with the paste button, fella! You've posted this message to half the threads in the 950 forum!

I'm going to speak briefly here in Outlaw's defense -- call me naive if you like, or overly optimistic, or foolhardy, or even just being devil's advocate if you like. The Outlaws have a long-standing tradition of rarely speaking here in the forum. They also try to only post news every month or so -- they do not post news, good or bad, as soon as they get it, but wait until they have a lot to say.

As for the 950, there is no one standing behind any of us with a club insisting we buy it. We are all here waiting for it because it is an appealing mix of value and features. If the wait is to much, some will (and already have) moved on to something else. Outlaw has made it clear that they want to get it right when it ships, and not give us rushed junk. Having worked on projects that were rushed out when the entire design team knew it wasn't ready, I can attest to the fact that their approach is smarter. The release date has been sliding steadily since November (the first official release date that had near-beta hardware to back it up -- I know there were a slew of other release dates that fell by the wayside before that), which seems pretty reasonable when compared with the arrival of DD-EX and the discovery of a weird bug in a couple of new DD-EX soundtracks that they actually want to fix for us rather than just say "our product is designed to Dolby specs, we're sorry, use the DTS track instead" (which is all anyone can do with existing hardware, and they could do with the 950 if they wanted to ship it).

Yes, they're late. Yes, it's irritating. I know I'd like to get my hands on a 950 today, but I can't. But that doesn't mean the 950 is a disaster being covered up -- it just means we're all impatient. If they rush the 950 to give them to those of us waiting now and it's fundamentally flawed, then they're ruined their reputation for quality and stuck themselves with a product that will never sell well.

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Gonk

I guess I'll open my trap here too ... as I posted over on one of the HT related forums a week or more ago, Outlaw Audio has not been hyping the Model 950. It's us, the possible customers, who have been hyping it. I've had the opportunity to meet several of the Outlaws and, I believe, can safely consider them as friends. Therefore I find it personally frustrating to see them being lambasted for "Hyping the 950" when they've really been rather quiet about it except for their (roughly) once a month news letter.

The only other point I'll make is that if you think you (and the rest of us waiting for it) are frustrated and impatient for the 950 to ship ... try calling Outlaw Audio and speaking directly to one of them. You'll hear what real frustration sounds like!

Ok, I shot my mouth off for the day. I'll go back and lurk in my corner now.

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pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

[This message has been edited by psklenar (edited January 21, 2002).]

It is very possible that they are just doing their best not to release another date that has to slip due to something unforeseen. They probably want the first production run not only complete, but in house and possibly even hand inspected just to make sure that when it does hit, it will be a hit. Its unfortunate that this can't be done on a 100% perfect schedule for anybody that wants one, but with the amount of grief they get every time a date changes, I wouldn't release another date until there was no chance for it to change.

After all, this really is a hobby and I know hobbies are pretty addicting and one of the best parts is a new piece of gear, of course. But if you're bored with your current system to such a point that waiting on a new product is going to kill you, then go buy something else. Or give your system the super tune, moving your speakers around to try and get better placement. Go play the speaker wire game, or make up a wireloom for the back of your rack. Something. There's got to be a better way to enjoy this hobby than driving yourself crazy waiting for something you have no control over.

You could always go watch a movie. I've heard there are a few good ones in the theaters right now.

S.

Maybe they had us spoiled, with six news releases in the last 3 months of 2001. Now a month between news releases seems like a long time.

As far as waiting for the 950 goes, the waiting is not the hardes part. It's the not knowing. I would be very annoyed with myself if I bought a $2k pre/pro a day or two before the Outlaws shipped the 950.

So really is waiting to much? What many dont realize is that most other companies really dont have anything intimate to do with their customers. As I had mentioned before, how many companies do you know would bother telling you problems they are trying to fix for you to get the most out of your purchase. How many would wait 2 or 3 months to save $1100 that could be used for speakers, dvd, cables, whatever? Certainly whatever the wait is, the money I save is worth the wait to me. So those impatient people if you want to spend your money on another company where you would not have this 2-way relationship your really just dont get the point of being an OUTLAW.

Other companies might just release the product and Microsoft it later ie: denon,onkyo. Both companies have released products quickly and had mega problems and had to deal with them later. Not all of there products so don't flame me.

m-mmeyer

I'm glad to see some of my fellow Outlaws with cooler heads posting. I was getting a bit concerned over the Outlaws being blasted for delays and fixes. I'm not even in the market for the 950 but I'm anxious to hear all the reviews. Yes, I'm living vicariously through y'all!

I completely agree that it's us, the customers, who have been creating the hype around the 950. Outlaw has been very straightforward and upfront with us regarding the status.

I'd also like to chime in once again and agree 100% with the get it right BEFORE shipping philosophy.

I second gonk and the others after him. No one is forcing anyone to wait on this product. I myself am content to wait on this product which should be of high quality, not to mention a good value. That is the Outlaws are all about and they are going about it the right way.

------------------

Well count me amongst those that didn't wait.

Been reading about the new Outlaw pre/pro for over a year. Was gonna wait to make up my mind, but the new Pioneer sounded too good to wait any longer.

No regrets, no looking back (my wife just got it for me so my WAF is high on this one! )

I'm sure it woulda been a close call between the two, but the final piece of the puzzle is on the way to my HT NOW!!!!!!!

E

This should really post to news and pics. And is old news really. But for those impatient's hanging on by fingertips.
Why do so many CES reviewers give Outlaw a line? There are a million budget/mid value systems they could mention in passing. Why are they intrigued enough to give Outlaw a mention among highlighted 10K component booths. Outlaw just seems to pop out all over the web. I ran into article where again Outlaw got a pic. (Nov. 2001 article, about "Almost everything...about Surround-Sound") and the more intresting (Dec. 2001 article, "Update on 6.1 ...(1st paragraph)"
I knew the 950 was delaying to add this capability. I did not realize that Outlaw was the 1ST product with that designation. Again Outlaw being innovativly flexable whilst in a pricepoint. Just food for thought. Does Dolby Digital care about who gets first designation as 'long as the cash is in hand'; or are they concerned about quality standards for co's they license to? I have no idea.
Oh Bother; have not learned how to link: Go to www.hometheatersound.com click top of page on "Features" tab. 1st feature that opens on features page is "Cinema Cynergy" section with current article of ..Basic cabling...
on "basic cabling" article scroll to bottom of page "Archived Ariticles" to find Dec. 2001 and Nov 2001 articles mentioned above.

Congrats on the new unit. Was it the 49Tx? If so how much and where di you get it, that is if you don't mind me asking.
I have a few months to buy and am debating the Denon AVR-5803, the Pioneer VSX-49Tx or the Outlaw 950/770 setup.
Any words would be appreciated.
Mike
:-)

OK boys & girls in Outlaw land. It appears that I ruffled some feathers out there. But, before you come out flaming me again.....read what I said without filling in between the lines. My angst is centered upon the Outlaws deafening silence...NOT in there delay in releasing their new 950!

I too am sick and tired of the Microsoft's of the world prematurly releasing merchandise before bugs are worked out. If they don't have a few bugs worked out, then GREAT! Wait until it's ready before you ship...by all means. The last thing I want to do is buy something else that doesn't live up to the hype.

My gripe is that they obviously are aware that many folks out here (as evidenced by 100's of postings) that are getting antsy. And the longer they go without giving some type of update or news flash, people will continue to speculate. My guess is if they had some good news, they would have already updated their constituency.

Let's face it, they regularly posted news updates over the past 6 months...until now. Outlaw, by design, is an "Internet Only" organization. It is the Outlaws themselves who have established this "norm" of updating their fans via the news site. And from what I understand, this here forum was established, and is moderated by themas well. So, they have provided me this platform to voice my questions and concerns.

Hey guys....it's nothing personal here. So don't whack-out flamin' me. I just want to know, from them, if this 950 is going to come out in some reasonable time-frame, or are there issues that will indefinitely delay the production and release of the 950. If so, hey I can take it. Just let me know something.

dsmith,
Glad to hear it's not personal! Just wondering- have you called or emailed the Outlaws? If you REALLY want answers to your questions, it probably would be best to ask them directly- wouldn't you think? I'll bet they will be responsive. Good luck!

I'll put in my two cents. The only crime the Outlaws commited was being too gracious to their current and future customers by letting them know what was coming down the pipe. The Outlaws could have kept their mouths shut and not said a thing until CES and we all would have been happy purchasing the 1050 until the announcement for the 950 came at CES. Then we'd all be bitching about how those Rat B@st@rds had screwed us.

No the Outlaws let us know in advance so that those wishing for a higher end unit could still get the Outlaw value if they were patient.

So if being honest and forthright and up front about current and future products being released is a crime. Yes, the Outlaws are guilty as charged and outlaws I wouldn't mind harboring

Outlaw has tried to be forthcoming and honest with us in the past and has paid dearly for that honesty on the forums. I hope that they now operate just like the other manufacturers and not say a word until the units are totally out of beta and ready to ship.

------------------
Take Care,
merc

For those of you with short memories, i would like to remind you that Outlaw has been promising a pre/pro since end of '99. Yes, the last century. They should have announced a realistic availability date in the first place rather than almost 3 years of delays. And every announcement hinted that it would be forthcoming in 3-4 months. Hopefully Outlaw has learned an enormous lesson from the pre/pro debacle. So please have a little understanding when a poster expresses his/her frustration with the 950.

Well, I've only been waiting for it since late September / early October 2001... that's when I decided to go with separates and picked the 950/750 (which I later changed my mind to be 950/770), so I haven't been waiting for too long yet. I feel sorry for those of you who have been waiting for it since its original announcement, or putting off purchases since then.

Welcome to the forum, munster. I hate to disagree with someone I've just met, but I believe you are being unfair. Yes, they began investigating a pre/pro in 1999, and they made what may be considered a mistake in telling us about it when they were still so early in the design phase that the specs changed almost daily. According to the April 20, 2000 newsletter, though, the technology available at that time wasn't capable of providing everything that they felt belonged in an Outlaw pre/pro, so they scrapped the plans for a unit that would have appeared in Spring 2000. They had two pre/pros then in development, but they had just started design of them -- I've looked at schematic designs for something as "simple" as a building's air-conditioning system and then looked at the final product and laughed myself silly at how different the two were, because design (especially good, conscientious design) is a flexible process. Their initial goal of a pre/pro based on the 1050 in Spring 2000 evolved into something a lot larger (the 950 shares pretty much nothing but the heavy faceplate and green button of the 1050), and they chose later that year to suspend the hi-end pre/pro until the industry settled on some developing standards (digital connection of DVD-Audio and SACD, for example). In fact, if you look at the description of the "high-end" pre/pro in the April 2000 newsletter, you'll find yourself looking at specs that are essentially the Model 950. They could have spit out some re-hash of the 1050 and sold it 18 months ago, but they didn't want to. Instead they have worked very hard to develop the best product possible. And I would suspect that they told us those projected availability dates honestly believing that they would get there; manufacturing problems, software incompabilities, and development of new technologies can really screw with completing the design of something like this. I'm afraid the Outlaws have learned something from the Model 950 -- that mentioning products that haven't reached beta testing yet is an invitation for a lot of static from online forums. I have seen some forums where small groups or even individuals spent a great deal of time and energy trying to vilify Outlaw because the 950 is late -- the same people who would likely have complained about a quick re-hash of the 1050 as a pre/pro in 2000 and the Model 950 as a $1500 "high-end" pre/pro today. Rock, meet hard place.

I apologize if this lengthy reply appears hostile, as it is meant only to point out why frustrated posters may not always find much understanding. Do I understand the frustration of someone eagerly awaiting the arrival of a Model 950? Yep, I'm on the reservation list myself. Do I think that frustration is reason to condemn the Outlaws for trying to be totally open with consumers? No, I believe that to be counter-productive and unfair to the people trying as hard as they can to get innovative and affordable products to market as fast as they can.

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Gonk

Besideswich, all will be foregiven once the 950 ships. They'll have loads of money rolling in and we'll have our pre/pros, and all will be happy.

Come n’ listen to my story ‘bout a man named Scott
A poor moderator barely kept up with his flock
And then one day, he was on his keyboard
And in thru the door came the boss with the word
'Ship it by ground tomorrow 9 o’clock'
(950, that is, big box, new Outlaw crop)

Well the first thing you know, old Scott is the man
Kin folk said, ‘Yep we’ll stay in Outlaw land
Always liked hearing bout it and now its finally here,
the others left the waiting list and I don’t kear’
So they loaded up the truck and left the factory.
(Pro that is, PrePro’s,,Lots of channels, what a box)

Well, now it’s time to say goodby to Scott and all his kin
They would like to thank you folks for kindly droppin’ in
Your all invited back again to this locality
To have a heapin’ helpin’ of the 7 seventy.

(Sit a while take your shoes off.)

- Now that is classic!

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Gonk

ever see "Steel Magnolia" where she says:
'things were getting entirely too serious around here, I had to DO something'

Gonna go see 'Brotherhood of Wolves' NOW
and listen to some real howling!

Hey, Smart Little Lena, that's great! Now- how about a Limerick?

Munster, you're probably right- I do have a short memory. Getting older does that to you. I'd be willing to bet your 950 that the Outlaw's level of frustration is off the charts. I've got to believe they want the product in our hands worse than we do. One thing to keep in mind is that these guys have not been under any kind of contract to deliver a pre/pro by a certain date (not that I know of). Now if they had collected money in the form of a downpayment from all of us on the waiting list and promised delivery by such and such a date- then you might indeed be be looking at a "debacle"! So, anyway, what were we talking about here?

All of you with money burning in your pockets, please throw some my way, I guarantee I won't complain one bit - what happened to being patient? Isn't that a virtue or have many you gotten caught up in the fast pace, no wait, perfect service everytime society we all dream about?

Steve,

Trust me, you win that bet! I've called and actually talked to a couple of the Outlaws and as soon as the subject of the 950 comes out, you can just feel the stress dripping out of their voices. I'm seriously concern for their health ... while it's not confirmed yet, there have been studies showing a correlation between high stress levels and both heart attacks and strokes.

On the other hand, my house closing's been put off from Wednesday to next Friday. So I can't use my 950 until Saturday the 16th at the earliest. Gee, do you think that takes any of the rush off of them?

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pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

pat,

Yup, I'm sure the pressure (on the Outlaws) is off now! Really, though, sorry to hear about your delay in the closing. Now that can be really frustrating!

Hey gonk, thanks for the info(you sure you're not an outlaw?). I certainly didn't mean to trash Outlaw, as we all value what they're trying to do as a company. However, I did mean to point out that they made a lot of mistakes with the 950. No one can deny that. And while their intentions were most likely honorable, they did mislead many of us (although probably not intentionally).