Outlaw Audio home shop products hideout news support about
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#35806 - 06/06/01 06:34 PM 7.1 Channel Mode for Preamp/Processor
David Olstein Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 62
Loc: New York, NY USA
It appears that the 950 Preamp/Processor will have a 7.1 input and 7.1 output. Sounds great, right? The problem is, there is absolutely NO 7.1 software out there, nor is there likely to be any for the foreseeable future. I think that the SACD specs (or possibly DVD-A) may be able to accomodate 7.1, but all the SACD and DVD-A players being made today have 5.1 outputs. So it really doesn't make any sense to include 7.1 capability on the 950 unless it has a 7.1 mode that can convert 5.1 or 6.1 sources into 7.1 channels. I think there are a few processors on the market that can do this (the Sunfire Theater Grand II).

Top
#35807 - 06/07/01 04:29 PM Re: 7.1 Channel Mode for Preamp/Processor
ctekell Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 04/11/01
Posts: 15
Loc: Alamogordo, NM, USA
Quite a few DVDs are 7.1. The Haunting and Terminator 2 for example. The players don't have 7.1 outputs, but they do have digital outs. 7.1 inputs on the receivers and preamps coming out today are simple futureproofing, not just for hardware that will have outputs for THX EX and DTS ES, but for other potential formats. If SDDS comes to home theater, the current hardware is set to take a decoder, in theory anyway, not sure how well it would work with SDDS since that has extra front channels and no rear center, but that is the theory anyway.

Regards,

C.E. Tekell

Top
#35808 - 06/07/01 07:31 PM Re: 7.1 Channel Mode for Preamp/Processor
David Olstein Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 62
Loc: New York, NY USA
The Haunting and Terminator 2 DVDs, which I presume carry a Dolby Surround EX or DTS ES soundtrack are 6.1. I repeat, there are no DVDs (or DVD-As or SACDs) out there with a 7.1 soundtrack.

So again, unless the 950 has a 7.1 processing mode, the only way you'll get any use whatsoever out of the 950's 7.1 channel handling capability is if you have an external processor with a 7.1 mode, such as a Lexicon processor with Logic 7. But I really don't think there are many people out there who, if they buy a 950, are going to want to shell out the extra $$$ for an outboard processor.

Top
#35809 - 06/12/01 09:46 AM Re: 7.1 Channel Mode for Preamp/Processor
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
I think the idea behind the 7.1 inputs on the 950 is simply future-proofing. "Just in case" -- since the 950 has the pre-amp outs for those channels, they went ahead and provided multi-channel analog inputs for all of them. It is true that two of those inputs will not be used initially. That doesn't make this a bad thing. Maybe they'll never be used at all. Or maybe the multi-channel world will branch out and you'll start seeing DVD-A or SACD with 6.1 or 7.1 outputs. If that were to happen, most existing receivers and pre-amps would be out of luck. Will it happen? Probably not, but the Outlaws apparently figured the cost to provide that extra bit of security was small.
_________________________
gonk
HT Basics | HDMI FAQ | Pics | Remote Files | Art Show
Reviews: Index | 990 | speakers | BDP-93

Top
#35810 - 06/12/01 10:20 AM Re: 7.1 Channel Mode for Preamp/Processor
David Olstein Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 62
Loc: New York, NY USA
I wonder how much has been added to the cost of the 950 as a result of providing a seventh channel of preamplification (is that a word?) that, given the absence of any 7.1 software, will not be used for years, if at all. And I wonder how much it would cost to add Logic 7 or some other 7.1 mode, which would at least allow you to get some immediate benefit out of that 7th channel. If the 950 is software upgradeable, I suppose this feature could always be added at a later date.

Top
#35811 - 06/12/01 02:05 PM Re: 7.1 Channel Mode for Preamp/Processor
truthseeker Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 37
Loc: Il
If DPL II can be scaled up to 7 channels, OR if a decent version of Logic7 could be added, OR if the Outlaws came up with their own decent proprietary 7 channel matrix version, I think you'd hear a GIANT sucking sound coming from Lexicon. I'm presently considering the purchase of a used MC-1, but if the Outlaws had a decent Logic7 imitation, I'd buy the 950 in a heartbeat. But I'd still like a 2-channel crosstalk-cancelling mode like Lex's Panorama anyway.

Top
#35812 - 06/12/01 03:57 PM Re: 7.1 Channel Mode for Preamp/Processor
Avi Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 62
Loc: Northern New Jersey, USA
I have a lot of confidence in our Outlaws to deliver excellent design, components, and low cost. But custom, sophisticated DSP modes requires very specific skills, and is way out of their league. There are dozens of HT manufacturers out there, but only Lexicon and Yamaha are known for DSP modes that really sound good. (You could probably throw in Meridian, Fosgate, and Sony, too. Dolby PLII is basically a Fosgate algorithm). There's little chance that Lexicon would license Logic7 outside of the Harmon family, and there's little chance the Outlaws will be able to create something equally good - other than Fosgate, nobody else has been able to.

-avi
_________________________
Regular home theater / consumer electronics column posted at http://www.greengart.com .

Top
#35813 - 06/13/01 05:09 PM Re: 7.1 Channel Mode for Preamp/Processor
MrSandman Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 128
Loc: Charlotte, NC, USA
I am indeed amazed at the algorithms used in matrixed music and respect the designers/companies that develop them. I imagine, though, that reverse engineering one would be a much easier task that creating the original. If the hardware would support it then maybe, as mentioned earlier, it could be software upgraded when a decent reverse engineered algorithm appears.

S.

Top
#35814 - 06/14/01 12:48 AM Re: 7.1 Channel Mode for Preamp/Processor
truthseeker Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 37
Loc: Il
You may be right, Avi. It's such a shame that Fosgate didn't have the foresight to scale the DPL II for 7 channels like the Lexicon....but then again, maybe Harmon paid Fosgate not to.....holy conspiracy Batman! It really wouldn't have been too difficult to matrix another two rear channels. Sigh.....

Top
#35815 - 12/13/01 01:47 PM Re: 7.1 Channel Mode for Preamp/Processor
Matthew Hill Offline
Desperado

Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 1434
Loc: Mount Laurel, NJ
Newer pictures of the back of the 950 don't show 7.1 inputs anymore, only 5.1 inputs. What happened to the extra two inputs? When using the 5.1 inputs for DVD/A or similar, do the two surround channels get "doubled" and sent to the rear speakers, or are the rear speakers not used at all?
_________________________
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Top
#35816 - 12/13/01 03:02 PM Re: 7.1 Channel Mode for Preamp/Processor
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Because the decoding of DVD-Audio and SACD happens externally to the pre/pro and because that decoding is purely 5.1, the back channels will remain unused. The only way to change this would be to add a layer of signal processing to the 5.1 analog signal path, something that has generally been avoided (which is coincidently why there's typically no bass management on 5.1 analog inputs). The 5.1 and 7.1 surround modes (like DPL II, Cirrus Extra, and the 5.1 and 7.1 stereo music modes) should only be available for digital inputs and in some cases analog stereo (which undergoes an A-D conversion first).

The "back" inputs appear to have been replaced by a switch to enable/disable the 80Hz crossover, by the way.

I could be wrong (happened before!), but I'm pretty sure about this one. They could theoretically send the same signal to surrounds and center surrounds (left surr. and left back, and right surr. and right back), but I doubt that they would.
_________________________
gonk
HT Basics | HDMI FAQ | Pics | Remote Files | Art Show
Reviews: Index | 990 | speakers | BDP-93

Top
#35817 - 12/13/01 03:53 PM Re: 7.1 Channel Mode for Preamp/Processor
Matthew Hill Offline
Desperado

Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 1434
Loc: Mount Laurel, NJ
If they'd kept all 8 inputs, you could have used two Y cables to connect your 5.1 external device (DVD/A or whatever) and had the surround signal sent to all four of your rears, if you preferred. Or not.

I think it would have been nice if they'd left all 8 and put the crossover switch somewhere else, if nothing else than just for the futureproofing mentioned earlier in this thread. DVD/A & SACD are both 6 channel discrete formats, true, but who knows if/when either of them or their successors will be extended to add two more discrete channels.

Stereo LFE outs a la the ICBM would have been nice, too. :-)

Just my two cents. Of course I'm under no delusions that any of this is changing before the 950 ships.
_________________________
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Top
#35818 - 12/13/01 04:12 PM Re: 7.1 Channel Mode for Preamp/Processor
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
I agree with you that we shouldn't expect any of the items you mentioned to materialize on the 950's feature list at this point. Some of those are things that may appear in the "high-end" pre/pro and may have fallen victim to budget on the 950, though.

Or not...
_________________________
gonk
HT Basics | HDMI FAQ | Pics | Remote Files | Art Show
Reviews: Index | 990 | speakers | BDP-93

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Who's Online
0 registered (), 117 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Hedoboy, naowro, BeBop, workarounder, robpar
8705 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
patm1198 1
Helson 1
Forum Stats
8,705 Registered Members
88 Forums
11,326 Topics
98,691 Posts

Most users ever online: 476 @ 12/28/22 08:54 PM