Hello Yall, This is my first time in the saloon and was hoping for some advice. I have a 6000 cubic foot HT room and currently use a Klipsch LF-10. I was interested in the HSU STF-3 until I read the review posted on the Home Theater Forum comparing the Hsu to the SVS. I was wondering if anyone has any experience or advice for the LFM-1 vs SVS PB1-ISD. Thank you

I compared the LFM-1 to an SVS 25-31PCi (the cylinder sub that is most closely related to the PB1-ISD - same driver and amp in different enclosures). I found that the LFM-1 blended better with my main speakers than the SVS did; there was a boominess to the SVS's bass that doesn't exist with the LFM-1. In the end, I preferred the LFM-1.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

Gonk,
Thank you for the info, I also read your review and found it very helpful.

6000 cu. ft. for HT room…
I’m jealous.

I would get 2 subs for a room like that if I were you. Do a search on “stereo subs” by soundhound in the saloon for detailed description.

TWO SUBS IS NOT NECESSARILY BETTER THAN ONE SUB THAT IS TWICE AS GOOD. on better subs you get higher quality components=less distortion (usually with good companies at least), instead of 2x what you had before. for that reason, one would be better served with one sub twice as nice. this MISCONCEPTION that two subs is perfect is a bad one, and honestly hurting consumers because they are buying lesser quality subs in order to be able to get two. if you must have two, then you should double your budget so you can get two subs of the quality that you initially intended to get only one. ive said this before, so no need to dwell on it anymore.

That’s how I assumed tas would understand my post. If he didn't, yeah, he should listen to you curegeorg.

Whether a sub is twice as good, or three times as good as the other, how does one determine this? Are there numbers to go by or is it based on consumer reviews (average 2 or 4 out of 5 stars…)? Again, I’m not an audio expert, so if you don’t mind curegeorg, fill me in.

Well, before getting carried away, it may be necessary to balance out quality with quantity. All the quality in the world won't help a bit if it dosn't have the power to keep up with the rest of the system. Stepping down in quality may be necessary to be able to afford some subs that are close, but can offer the necessary volume. It's about balancing what you want and what you can afford. Many high quality builders (if not all) do try to make it loud enough so that one will work just fine.

Well besides the obvious of just asking me... You can read reviews, you can read specs, you can see how other models they have faired, above all you can listen to them... It is hard to sum up what makes a subwoofer good, because lots of the qualities go hand in hand. To say that something is built better than another is easy to say but hard to specify why. I will try (these are just in relation to a sub):
Amp: rms, peak, thd, servo controlled, weight, brand, cost, to name first things that come to mind
Woofer: size, voice coil, magnet structure, to a very small extent materials used in the cone and woofer, nice sized surround, linear excursion capability
Cabinet: sturdy, well laid out rear for inputs, etc. the basics of phase, volume, internal/xternal crossover, etc., adjustable feet, weight
Misc: remote controlled volume, parametric eq, brand name, warranty, overall size and weight

Mind you that this is a list that I am just pulling out of my head, so I may have overlooked some things, if so I'll reread and add them in.

Critical listening is good, followed by observation of scientifically observed data (reviews with specs, like link i posted from hometheaterhifi.com), and if you cant tell the difference between a sub that is $4000 and $400, then you are set, because you just saved yourself $3600. i on the other hand, know what each of those sound like, so i can compare them. bring in a good cd for bass (i use rap, because i know how i remember hearing it, because i like rap), good and hard hitting and "quick" instead of "boomy" and demo them out. cut each sub up on volume until it distorts, see if that was loud enough but still sounded good. i have to go get some stuff for a cookout, which is a good thing, because i can ramble about subs :-). hope this helps. as always you should evaluate the entirety of a product, cost included, and see if it is what you want/can afford and still want. its funny to hear people say how their sub is awesome, yet they have no frame of reference to compare it to. like for example the lfm1 might be awesome for joe blow, but side by side with my subs itd be a coffee table. granted i didnt pay $549 for any of them either, but every cent i did pay is well worth it in comparison.

George:

As you know, we canines are more atuned to high frequencies, rather than low, so I may be out of my league in this thread.

HOWEVER

The phrase "It's a dog's life" comes to mind -- and we have to live on a budget, as well. You imply that you paid more than $549 for your subs. HOW MUCH MORE? Quality is paramount, but must always be viewed (listened to?) in conjunction with the price/value equation. Your subs may be great, but how much more did you have to pay for them? (And, by the way, what are they?)

Some of can't afford to pay more and think that a product such as the LFM-1 is just what our needs require. Why do you put down people the way you seem to frequently do in your posts?

But what do I know, I'm only a dog...

ARF ARF, says Iggy

I have a PB2-ISD, and it works well for me. It has plenty of power, and I have it tuned to 20 Hz. The room I have it in is only 2100 square feet. Nowhere near the size of yours. This past weekend I set up my buddy’s PB1-Plus. I used the Infinity RABOS setup disk, and SLP meter with outstanding results. After all the adjustments it blends seamlessly with the rest of his speakers. I will use the RABOS tools to measure the bass response of my sub, and room when I finish re-configuring my HT. If I need it (I didn’t with my PCi-46-16) I will get an ART 351 equalizer to adjust for room response. Enjoy.

Actually it depends on how much accurately reproducing the sound and whether the listener likes it that way go hand in hand. You can measure distortion, get a good idea of transient repsonse, and measure frequency response. Some people actually like distortion in their sound, but not all of them really know it. Some of them like the big peak in bass response for more power and sacrifice low end extension.

Two subs of any given quality level will perform better than one.

The biggest thing that helps in this regard is mutual coupling between the subs. Essentially, assuming the subs are considerably less than a half wavelength's distance of each other at the lowest frequencies being reproduced, the two subs will effectively act as one larger sub. What this does in real terms is provide a 3db increase in efficiency and a lowering of the frequency where just one of the subs would start to roll off.

The two subs go deeper in frequency before rolloff, and they have twice the dynamic range (output capability). Each doubling of the number of subs will yield another 3db increase in dynamic range and a further lowering of the frequency where the subs start to roll off (this is why I use four 18" JBL subs).

This benefit is not to be sneezed at, whatever the quality level of the subs.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited May 21, 2004).]

Thanks for the info everyone, I understand the reasoning behind 2 subs, and agree completely, there is still the wife factor to be considered. It is one thing shakeing everything in the room, but it is another hiding or blending the subs that are doing it. I still don't think my question was answered. Has anyone done a side by side comparison or is there a review of a comparison between LMF-1 and SVS PB1-ISD. Once I have decided between the Outlaw and the SVS, I am going to try 1 sub, If I am not happy with the results I am going to Add a second. 2 LMF-1 or 1 SVS PB2-ISD. I think both of these subs have a lot to offer at this price point. Once again i appreciate everyones input.

that is a pretty funny post, ill give you that. i paid $1232 for my Velodyne HGS-II 18, retailed for $3000+ if i remember correctly. at times i have used 4 Velodyne HGS-II 10s, pair with my fronts, pair with my rears; those i got for nothing. now i have the 18, and two clear acrylic 10s in the front only. the only reason i have 10s at all is because, they were free, and my fronts are bookshelfs that are waiting to be moved to the 6th and 7th channels and replaced by floorstanding (maybe, if i find some i like, well and start to look). the hgs-II 10 clear acrylic retailed $2000+ i think. oh and i got them all new, not used. the 18 is thx ultra (maybe ultra 2) certified, and i cant recall about the 10s. now i realize that not everyone can expect those prices, but you can however pick up some good equipment used for around those prices (well not free...). not that you will find many used velodynes... lots of times you can get yourself a deal, if you work at it, however you don't get many deals from online retailers... i have found that a lot of life is who you know, if you know the right people at the right time, then you can get lucky.
i dont like talking about my gear that much, but since you prodded and humored me...
when comparing products, you must compare apples to apples, the lfm1 is not an apple, however there are other subs that are the same kind of fruit that it is. if you dont know what an apple tastes like, then how can you ever really believe that what you have is so great? your frame of reference is what makes you say what you have is great or not, so keep that in mind. lfm1 is a great VALUE, but its not in the same class of what i am used to, so i cannot say that it is. and while my subs are top notch, i got them for a great value, just like all the other components in my system... some are awesome, some are good, all were good values (for me) or i wouldnt have bought them at all. and i dont try to talk down about products, because everyone likes different things, but i am merely trying to expand your horizons to see that there is more out there than a $500 sub, and that perhaps you should experience different things to see if its quality merits the price or if you could spend a little more and get more... the choice, my friend, is always yours. the u.s. army wants you, join now! j/k. lol

curegeorg,

you bring up some great points, however I dont think cost is the true issue here. The SVS subs and Outlaw subs seem to offer a huge advantage by selling direct to the consumer. How much would these subs sell for at a Hi Fi store like Sound Advice 1,000, 1,200 or more. I have been looking for a while to replace my Klipsch LF-10 which i bought for 1,000 from Sound Advice. I considered the Velodyne SPL-1200 which was 1,400 at sound advice and can be found on the net ranging from 700-1400. Obviously there is a lot of mark up here from manufacterer to retailer. I think that is why most of us are looking into SVS, HSU, and Outlaw, NO MARK UP. I am sure you have an awesome system utilizing the HGS series from velodyne, I think the point is why spend 2,000-3,000 when you may be able to get something similar for 500-1,000. I know it may not produce levels like the HGS 15" or 18" but the cost savings probably outwieghs the output from a 3,000 sub. I am considering 2 outlaw LFM-1 subs or 1 SVS PB2-ISD or 2 SVS PB2-ISD, all can be had for around 1,000. That is a lot of sub for the money, my only question to this forum is which way to go based on experience in the group Outlaw LFM-1 or SVS PB2, SVS PB1. Thank you.

i dont think you can get a sub as good as the spl even with 2 lfms. you yourself say 700 online for spl1200, that is not much more than the lfm anyway.

curegeorg,

why would you recommend the spl-1200 over the LFM-1 or SVS PB1, I have seen user reviews who have both the Velo Spl-1200, and the SVS PB1 and give the edge to the SVS, I know 1 or 2 listener reviews does not set things in stone, also the 700 price I saw on the spl-1200 was not a very reputable company, 900 is avg for descent on line vendors. For 900 I would get the SVS PB2-ISD. I appreciate your input.

why i wouldnt:
Down-firing woofers
Three tuned, patented 3" high-flow flared porting (in and out).
600 watt BASH (R) digital switching amp

that stacks up poorly against the spl1200. svs makes pretty decent stuff that they assemble from other companies that manufacturer the products. they however dont do inhouse design, which sometimes holds them back. however it is WAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY cheaper to outsource like they do, outlaw does this as well...

the ultra is more on order with the spl. and the ultra costs over 2x as much!

[This message has been edited by curegeorg (edited May 22, 2004).]

everyone is entitled to their opinions be them correct or not... everyone and their sister uses the BASH amplifier.

curegeorg,

what else would you recommend other than velodyne, any experience or info on Earthquake subs?

I don't know if I've said it in this thread or now, but if you are considering subs that can be demo'ed locally, definitely make the rounds and listen to some of them. Also, when reading online reviews (or recommendations from anyone in an online forum), it's important to remember their perspective. There is a strong bias in favor of SVS in the online community. At times, that bias may sway people to feeling that an SVS sub is better than a competitor when it may not be. We all will tend to overlay some bias in favor of what we've used and been happy with, whether that's my satisfaction with Paradigm and Outlaw or curegeorg's fondness for Velodyne. Go out and do some listening, see what you like - it may help draw parallels with other products that you haven't heard.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

Seems to me, if one decides to follow your advice, he or she must consider the reality of sub evaluation which is not a clean cut decision. It seems easy in theory but to actually pick one or two in the store or internet, I’m not sure if I can say one sub is twice as good or one and a half times as good or just 50 % better even though costs twice as much and … etc.
For the sake of helping other gunslingers who are thinking about using 2 subs, would you list some of subs that may only be half as good as lets say LFM-1 and why? That way, those subs and the lesser ones can be avoided.

Now, if one decides to follow soundhound’s advice on using 2 subs, the worries will be on something else which I think he has posted a lengthy info on that last year.

The speaker makes many times the difference the amp will. It is possible to get a very good idea of what a sub will sound like if you have the right specs. These are pretty much never listed for HT subs though. I know of these specs, but I'm not an expert on reading them. Just trying to guess by things like amp power, manufacturer rated frequency response, and how the sub is put together (ie ported, downfiring, etc) is next to useless.

yes i demod some before i got my stuff years ago. they were ok, but they are overpriced for what you get. for the money that they want, you can find MUCH nicer subs.

so you want a sub that is half as good as the lfm1 or HALF THE PRICE? or do you want half as good and half as expensive?

I wrote “That way, those subs and the lesser ones can be avoided”.

First off, I'll make a statement:

SVS does inhouse design their subs.

Second, I'll state VELODYNE SUCKS.

Its my opinion, and I think my opinion is at least as important as Curegeorg's. Also I don't think SVS is all that either. I've heard their fancy expensive one and I'd sooner buy a depth or something with musical bass and a lack of boominess.

I've only heard an LFM-1 a couple times, but imho it blows away most of the competition that is priced up to twice as much. Most, but not all.

There are so many things that can effect bass that weren't mentioned like cabinetry, etc. I've never been able to make a decision about a speaker or sub by looking at specs. I've been fooled too many times by specs.

You really have to LISTEN to a sub, just like a speaker. You have to decide what sounds better to YOUR ear. Don't listen to internet guys about speakers. Whatever they own, the love for the most part, and some will bash any other product.

SVS is a brand I would never offer anyone to criticize to loudly online. You will get wrongly attacked.

Facts are, every speaker/sub has its own musical note so to speak.

Make your own decisions and I'd suggest LISTENING to subs, with your own kind of music, in an environment that best suits you:

HOME.

Outlaw will accept returns and any high end audio store will let you take a demo home if they are decent. In fact most manufacturers of high end equipment demand their dealers allow just that. If a dealer won't let you take one home, email the manufacturer and see what they suggest.

i dont think you can get a sub as good as the spl even with 2 lfms. you yourself say 700 online for spl1200, that is not much more than the lfm anyway.

Curegeorge, is a funny guy. I've read alot of his posts, and I kinda think he just likes to argue. However, I can tell you from experience of owning an LFM-1, that is does blow away alot of the more expensive subs, and two does definately make a difference in the volume of bass as well as the low extension. I would audition as many subs as i could, but you will never go wrong with the LFM-1, it's an incredible sub.

There's another reason to go with dual subs: depending on your room and placement, you may get smoother response without equalization.

FWIW, I just ordered a pair of LFM-1s as the first step in a major gear upgrade - pretty much everything is getting replaced. I do this for a living (see http://www.hometheaterwatch.com), so there's a good chance something better will come along on a "long term loan" or "review unit pricing" that will eventually replace them. But in the meantime, the LFM-1 was impressive enough at the HES show in NY with material I know well -- and inexpensive enough -- for me to pull out my credit card. My review of the show will be up on Secrets shortly(http://www.hometheaterhifi.com).

-avi

not me, im not argumentative... :-) no doubt the lfm is a good sub for its price. and if there was nothing priced above it, then it would be the best. however there is, and its not.

i think velodynes value is surpassed in their lower end models by companies such as svs, outlaw, etc. which have a different process of selling (i.e. internet direct) and can afford to sell their products directly and make more money per sub, while still having a lower cost to the consumer.

having said that, i doubt there are very many if any (i havent heard any in 20 years) better than velodynes top models at their price range let alone anything anywhere near their price. i doubt that there is any sub available better than the 1812.

you have to compare apples to apples to even compare anything at all.

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This post has been brought to you by curegeorg, thanks for reading.

Hsu, SVS, and Outlaw have generous return policies. Since you will never know in advance what sounds best in your room, can you save enough by buying online to afford the return shipping costs and try them at home? (I bought a Hsu VTF-3, but that was before the LFM-1 was introduced.) Good luck!

soundhound:

Can the same be said about woofers in two way speakers?
For example, I had a pair of 3 way speakers with one 8” woofer per speaker. I upgraded to a pair of 2 way speakers with two 5 1/4” woofers per speaker (MTM config). It seems like my new speakers do better down to 40 Hz than my previous one which I didn’t get to do any tests before getting rid of them. Just wondering…


[This message has been edited by Spiker (edited June 18, 2004).]

two subs are not always better than one. nor would 2 smaller drivers always be better than one larger one... a smaller driver typically does not have the frequency response of a larger driver (given same quality with both), if you had 1 or 1000 small drivers it still wouldnt go as low as one bigger one. now if you switched from 1 big crappy driver to 2 small but better drivers then there will be a difference, but it will not be a difference of low end extension. a lot of people like bass that is not really low, in fact what they consider bass is mostly midrange, so you must be getting more of that sound from your 2 5.25s and that is what you like...

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This post has been brought to you by curegeorg, thanks for reading.

Two of the exact same sub will perform better than one of those same subs by itself.

Back to spiker's question, there's a lot more going on than simple number and size of drivers in a speaker. The single 8" driver in a three-way speaker could potentially achieve better bass response than a pair of 5.25" drivers in a two-way speaker, but factors such as the quality of the individual drivers, the enclosure designs, and the crossover designs (just to name the ones that occur to me) could just as easily yield better extension for the two-way speaker. The number of drivers in the two-way speaker becomes just one of many contributing factors.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

i thought crappy vs better summed that up...

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This post has been brought to you by curegeorg, thanks for reading.