I came across this on Audiogon. Has anyone heard of this guy and his mods? Curious about what the Outlaws think of this Mod as well. No, I'm not thinking about buying from him, just caught my eye

OUTLAW AUDIO M-200 Level-1 MODIFICATION

I am happy to announce a full blow modification to the Outlaw Audio M-200 mono block power amplifier. This modification is designed by Chris Johnson, the founder and former president of Sonic Frontiers. The M-200 is a 200 watt mono power amp that offers superb value for the home theater enthusiast at their $600.00 a pair Internet Direct price. We were curious to check them out as the people at Outlaw are friends. These amps would sell for $1000.00 a pair if sold through traditional retailers and not Internet direct. We were delighted to find that the amps were already using fully balanced boards, but were not run balanced. Our mod not only upgrades the most critical Audio circuit parts but we also run them as a fully balaced design. The results blew us away for the money. If you are looing for a quality high power solid state amp with great flexibilty, this may be your ticket. The Modified M-200 puts out 200 watts into 8 ohms and 300 watts into a 4 ohm load. They are great run full range, balanced or single ended, as well as a killer way to biamp power hungry speakers. The following details our Level-1 mod on a pair of amps:

a) We Install eight “large” EAR brand SORBOTHANE isolation feet.

b) Four sheets of SOUNDCOAT chassis damping material are cut & applied where applicable to the internal chassis.

c) We install a pair of VAMPIRE CM-1F/CB copper body, direct gold-plated RCA input jacks

d) We install a pair of Neutrik XLR input connectors…as well as giving amp the ability to run in fully balanced mode (save $50.00 per amp if you do not want to have it set up for balanced operation)

e) Four AURICAP "signal path" metallized polypropylene coupling capacitors

f) Ten BLACK GATE Coupling, Bypass and Power supply capacitors

g) Twelve AUDIO NOTE Tantalum ½ and one watt "signal path" film resistors

h) Installation of DH LABS Revelation Series pure 99.99% silver Teflon-insulated input wire

i) Eight IR HEXFRED ultra-fast soft recovery diodes are added to the power supply

j) TRT WonderSolder used throughout

k) The mod takes 6 hours labor for the pair of amps.

SONIC CHANGES of LEVEL 1 MODIFICATION ARE AS FOLLOWS:

It is much Quieter.... The Silences are BLACKER...thus, resolving more low level Detail, ambience retrieval & three dimensionality.

The amp is much smoother throughout the midrange. The solid state edge is gone.

There is less high frequency grain and the highs are extended. There is also more high frequency detail without adding any solid state hardness.

Bass is cleaner with more weight and authority. Bass definition is also improved and it no longer is congested with one note bass. The Bass also seems to extend much lower.

The soundstage is bigger and more three-dimensional.

Price: The modification to your amps is $450.00 each or $800.00 for a set of 2 amps ($700.00 in single ended mode)

A new amp with the Level-1 mod is $750.00 ea. or $1390.00 for a new pair of balanced Mono amps. Subtract $50.00 per amp ($100.00 for a pair) for single ended versions so a new pair of single ended amps will be $1290.00 + freight.

There is a one year warranty on the Modified unit if purchased new thru us. Modified customers units will have a 90 day warranty on all wotk performed.

The M-200 is also a killer match with our newly modified Quad QC-24 tube preamplifier.

Call Wally at 770-667-5633 for info and to order.

I accept Visa and MasterCard. GA residents add 7% sales tax.

Specs on the Stock model are as follows:

Power Output: 200 watts @ 8 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, <0.05% THD; 300 watts @ 4 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, <0.05%

THD Signal to Noise: 112 dB "A" weighted

Input Impedance: >10K Ohms

Gain: +27dB (1.7V sensitivity) for full output

Input Connectors: RCA Jack

Output Connectors: Five-Way Binding Posts

Power Consumption: 600 watts maximum/<3 watts standby

Trigger Input: 6-35 V DC 4mA

Weight: 18 pounds

Dimensions (H/W/D):1.75" x 17" with feet x 11.5"


Check out our new website at: www.underwoodhifi.com

Sounds like bull$hit to me. Save your money and run 'em stock.

Cowrock,

I mentioned this in the last post on the thread below (M200 Modification). To take a different view from Soundhound (I enjoy his post and agree with him on most things), I think mods to stock units can be a good thing. You can read more in the other thread on why I feel this way. But, I would not buy a mod retail. How would you ever know how they compare without first knowing how the stock unit performed in your system. Don't listen to anyones opinion, not the retailer, not me, not Soundhound. Listen to your ears. If after listening you wanted to move in the direction of a modded unit, there are a number of items that they are doing to the unit that are very simple mods. You may be able to get a nice benefit by doing some of it yourself if you are confortable with it. I would even use some different parts than those listed and would go one more step and change out the binding post. I hate those standard binding post you get with todays mid fi. You risk the warranty, but as I pointed out in the other post this is a nice price level item to take that risk. There are other things they are doing that I would rather let them do. They do offer some warranty with the mod. There are some of the mods that they are doing that should help the sound of the unit. That said, it may not be enough to make it worthwhile. It might also turn the 200's into those killer monoblocks you thought you could never afford. Only way to find is to try it. Follow the other advice and you never find out. You are then always content with the status quo. But first listen to the stock units for an extented period of time. You may find the stock unit is all you will ever need so any mod would be wasted money. But you may think that it can be improved and want to try. In any case it is not just BS. The quality of the parts they are using tells you that. I do not have any ties with either of the gentlemen involved in this, but I have dealt with both and found them to be honest and reputable businessmen. Hope this helps a little more that the standard one line "stock" answer.

Ok, no "stock" answers, just the long winded ones:

1) Sorbothane feet, 8 "large" ones. Sorbothane's purpose is to provide physical decoupling from vibration. It works very well - I use it under my turntable. But a power amplifier is not a turntable. Power amplifiers are not microphonic nearly to the extent of turntables. If you place a voltmeter and ocilloscope on the output of a low level component (solid state preamp) and tap on a capaicitor that happens to be in the signal path, and which has DC voltage across it, you will see the resulting waveform on the ocilloscope and voltmeter. It will probably be down roughly minus 90dbu. That is equivalent to the noise floor of CD. This is about as worst case as you can get. Now, with this amplifier sitting anywhere in your listening room (and NOT sitting on top of your subwoofer or mains!), how much acoustic transfer of energy do you think will take place into the amplifier's circuitry? I'll give you a clue: It is lower than audbility, and is much less than actually banging on the amplifier's components directly. Moral - simply place your electronic components somewhere other than on top of your speakers. It's cheaper and better.

Soundcoat chassis damping material - ditto. Same way-overblown problem, and very easy to avoid for free.

Vampire Gold Plated RCA jacks! Aside from sucking blood, I would imagine that their gold plating is there to ward off corrosion. That's why it's used in all other electronic applications. I haven't seen the input terminals of the M-200, so I don't know if they are gold or not, but I would assume that they probably are. Either way, connectors (even gold professional ones) are not that expensive. I seriously doubt that Vampire whatever RCAs are going to blow air up your skirt any more than the stock RCAs.

Neutrik XLRs. These are nice. They are used professionally, and I have quite a few for those components that need balanced connections. However, the whole issue of the "benefits" of balanced operation need to be clarified. The ONLY reason for the existance of balanced connections is to reduce noise and hum that is picked up by the cables connecting the devices. In a professional installation where cable lengths can be 100 feet or more, this makes perfect sense. In a home situation, you are much, much less likely to run into a situation where the noise supression capabilities of balanced connections would be of use. There is one important thing to keep in mind regarding balanced connections: aside from reducing noise pickup via the cables connecting the components, there is NO other audible benefit, sonic, bass extension, soundstage or whatever adjective you wish to apply.

However, there is one drawback to consider to using balanced connections when not needed. That is that the balanced circutry adds TWICE the amount of active electronics in the signal path. Adding this much extra active electronic componentry is never a good idea unless absolutely needed, and can cause added noise, distortion etc.

There is another drawback to balanced electronic stages. That is that balanced configurations cancel out even-order harmonic distortion. While this would seem on it's face to be desirable, consider this. If you must have some distortion (and in ANY electronic component you MUST, however slight), the lower multiple of the distortion "partials" are less offensive to the ear than the higher ones, and this is particularly true of the 2nd harmonic, which is an even octave above the fundamental frequency. The presence of the 2nd harmonic tends to "cover" the presence of any higher harmonic distortion present. So, when you cancel out the even harmonics, what you have left are the odd ones - the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th etc. These are particularly bad sounding to the ear when heard in isolation, and can be one cause of "hard" sounding equipment.

So do you REALLY want balanced equipment in your home if you don't have interconnect lengths of 50 feet or more? Simply routing your wires intelligently is far cheaper, and more effective.

I'll lump the capacitor and wire changes together here. Yes, in SOME instances coupling capacitors and resistors can have sonic effect. However this is almost always in tubed equipment where stages are isolated by coupling capacitors to block high DC voltages. This is very rarely the case in solid state equipment, as virtually all modern amplifiers are direct coupled, with the possible exception of a DC blocking capacitor at the amplifier's input. Personally, I have never had an instance where changing out capacitors (even ones directly in the signal path) made a bit of difference in solid state power amplifiers or low level equipment.

The above goes doubly for resistors. The main thing that higher quality resistors buy you is lower self noise. Again, I don't have an M-200, but frankly, I would worry more about the resistors in your preamp than in your power amplifier. This is where you really need the benefits of low noise resistors.

Hexfred diodes. Yes, these are faster than generic diodes, but you have to take into account what you are asking of the rectifiers in a power amplifer. A power amplifer's power supply tends to be much more "brute force" than that in a low level component where minute voltages are amplified, such as a phono preamp. I seriously question their benefit in a 200 watt power amplifer. The main job of rectifiers is to change the AC voltage coming out of the power transformer to a "pulsating" DC voltage. The capacitors in the power supply then smooth this pulsating voltage into a constant DC voltage (like a battery). This is pretty basic stuff, and personally I feel that if the componentry is sufficient for the power demands of the amplifer, then the power supply is not going to make any further "improvement" in the sound. Keep in mind that power amplifers are rarely operated at or near full power for any appreciable time, even with the noisiest DVD soundtrack.

TRT WonderSolder. Ah yes this must be like the silver content solder inside my old Tektronics ocilloscope. It is good stuff - for lab grade test equipment. It is horrendously overkill for use in consumer equipment. Now I have one question. If they are going to "re-solder" EVERY connection inside your power amplifer, uh, what about the very real possiblility of heat damage to the components by the repeated soldering? I try to avoid at all costs applying heat to any electonic parts more than absolutely necessary. I think this aspect of the "modification" has at the best questionable (to say the least) sonic benefit, and at the worst is stressing the components inside your amplifer unnecesarily.

I would be more willing to accept the apparent techno-babble that the people doing the mod are putting forth if they offered at least a somewhat plausable technical explaination of WHY each component of their mod produces the results they claim. Lacking this, I can only assume they don't have the foggiest idea what they are doing or why they are getting the "results" they assert, and are merely throwing boutique parts at a non-existant problem. Talk is extremely cheap, especially in the internet age. How about some real technical info to back up these claims?

So, what the heck. Don't listen to me. If you want to part with your money, have at it. However, I can think of a lot more beneficial and cost effective ways to improve a home theater or music listening system than this "mod".


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited June 10, 2003).]

Holy Musical Theory 101, Batman! Very well presented argument Soundhound, thanks for the input. I'm going to have to print this out so I can read it on my lunch hour! Now what are your thoughts on bi-amping?

Gaz

I actually tri-amp my system. I am all for active bi or tri amping which uses external electronic crossovers, and has no passive speaker level crossover in the signal path. I take a much more dim view of passive bi-amping, which in my opinion solves no problems, and just adds another power amplifier into the signal chain which is reproducing exactly the same signal. I've read a lot of explainations from manufacturers as to why passive bi-amping is beneficial, but I fail to see how simply having a stout, large gauge single speaker wire doesn't achieve the same objective, assuming that the single power amplifier has a sufficiently high damping factor.



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited June 10, 2003).]

Nice Job Soundhound,

I agree with the majority of your post and since the most of my equipment and mod experience is in tubes (the exception being the Quad Speakers) I will defer on parts of you comments where I just do not have the experience. As I said above the majority of the mods you can do yourself and that definitely includes feet and Soumdcoat. I have never bothered with either. As to RCAs and Binding Post, it is strictly an appearance thing with me. And I must admit when I first changed Speaker binding post on my Quads from the old fashioned pin and bare wire push types to more modern 5 ways I just pulled a couple of plastic coated ones out of the closet. They were not even red and black. I did that for a quick change to spades and not for looks. When I got the time and changed to nicer appearing brass ones I did not recall significant if any difference but I was not really looking for any. Balanced, from what I know I agree with you on the long runs, but I have never used it. I may be testing that theory in the near future. Changing resisters, capacitors and wiring I have had far greater sucess, but that was with tubes and Electrostatics. I do believe they make a difference however as these are exactly the same parts you are hearing in more expensive solid state equipment and you cannot tell me the stock 200s sound as good as the higher end gear. Well I guess you can tell me that due to lack of any experince or interest in going wholesale to solid state. I do not have a lot of experience with solid state. In the last 30 years I have only owned an Adcom 535 (hated), an old Classe DR series amp (early Class A, best output from 25 watts I have ever heard and loved), and lately a 3 channel Anthem for surround (that I did not care for). But to be honest the Anthem was playing rear and center channels only in a movie environment so not a lot to compare. I believe the preamp makes the biggest difference in your system aside from speakers, and I think getting a tube preamp is the best mod out there for a solid state amp. ALso I think I have made it clear but I really would not waste my time on any mods for equipment only to watch movies. I just do not see the benefits. Music is a different story but that is up to the individual. I hope the amps are improved at the price they are charging and would be dissapointed if these individuals did not think it did the job they are advertising. But I have never heard it or the stock 200. Since I am thinking about getting a 200 I started following this board. It would be interesting to hear from the Outlaws on this as it was mentioned on the website that they were friends with the parties involved and interested in hearing how the mods worked. They know far more about what can be done to improve the sound of the amp with an additional $400 bucks than anyone. I believe I have seen in post where you talk to them from time to time. I may have you mixed up with someone else, but get the perspective from the horses mouth even if you can not publish it.

By the Way. I refuse to be responsibile for my grammar and spelling as I have a 3 year old hanging on to me as I type this. He is waiting for me to play games with him. Actually he (grandson) is the best mod I have although I am quite fond of the original.

[This message has been edited by OFCCM (edited June 10, 2003).]

It may have not been clear from my posts, but I am a very strong proponent of tube equipment, even SET power amps. I do have extensive solid state experience, but when it comes to my own listening, it's tubes all the way when possible. I have heard benefits of capacitor changes in tubed equipment I have modified, especially the two coupling caps from the driver stage to the output grids, where I prefer NOS oil capacitors.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited June 10, 2003).]

SH: I noted your affinity for pre-amp electronic crossovers and, I assume, a direct connection from amp(s) to loudspeaker driver(s). I think that if my cashflow improves in the next several months, that I would like to try adding two Outlaw 7100 amps to the 770 I now have in order to tri-amp. (Imagine all that extra speaker cable! But then perhaps the drivers for the mids and highs will have a relatively high impedence at their operating frequencies and the cables won't need to be quite as heavy as the cables for the low frequency drivers.)

Are you using seven channels worth of three-way electronic crossovers? Off-the-shelf units, DIY, or ??? Just curious. (... just putting this "in my thinking cap" for the future.)

As usual, SH, your post here is eloquent and to the point. (I can offer easy praise because I so often agree with you!)

Oops, here I am off the topic of the thread ... AGAIN! (Say goodnight, Dave. "Goodnight.")

bestbang4thebuck:

I am only active tri-amping my left and right mains, with the stereo subwoofers the lowest part of that "tri". The crossovers are 4th order Linkwitz-Riley types that I built myself. For active components in these crossovers, I am using Analog Devices' BUF-03 video buffer ICs. These are extremely fast (of course, since their for video) and as a result are very linear through the audio range and way beyond. Their only downside is that they are somewhat noisy, so I have to hit the input of the crossover somewhat hard at +15dbu for full scale digital for CDs (2.0 VAC). Doing this, and padding down the input of the power amps makes the total system nice and quiet.

The center speaker is "active" bi-amped with a low level L-C passive crossover (not speaker level!) splitting the signal at 500Hz and sending it to two channels of a tube stereo amp. This approach is nice-n-simple and adds no active component colorations, but it is of course only 2nd order, but that's OK in this instance.

The surrounds are un-modified JBL 8330s which are the same speaker you would find in your average cinema or dubbing stage. They are pretty good, although I have blown a tweeter in one of them. Ooops!

There are pictures of this setup (including the amp and crossover rack) in the "systems" saloon if you haven't already seen them.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited June 11, 2003).]

$450 for just the mods to one amp, $800 for modding a pair. Wow! Do they now need designer electricity?

I would suggest to anyone who is NOT satisfied with the stock model M200, that you shop around for an amp that you ARE satisfied with. The thing about buying M200s and having them modded, is that you are paying for some of the compnents and labor TWICE. Once for the orignal M200 and again for the new parts and installation of them.

I could see somone who is technically minded (and who does not mind voiding a warranty) getting hold of some audio jewelry grade caps and connectors and maybe some other pieces parts and doing their own mods. I have done so on my Acoustat speakers (long out of warranty because Acoustat does not exist any longer) and my Sony 999es dvd/sacd player, whose warranty I have voided by replaceing the analog output opamps.

Maybe all those mods to the M200 do help refine the sound, but I certainly would want to become very familiar with the sound of the stock M200 prior to even considering modding it.

Paul



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the 1derful1