Since I am thinking about getting a 200 for center channel I found it interesting that the Parts Connexion is offering mods to the Outlaw 200. Since I own Sonic Frontier equipment, I follow the new business venture of the former owner and President of Sonic Frontiers and present owner of Parts Connexion. He actually started out with a audio parts and mods business and branched from kits to nice tube equipment. Since Sonic Frontiers closed and Anthem was bought out, he is not associated with the new Company and has started up Parts Connexion. I was looking at his new online site tonight thinking about getting him to mod my SOnic Frontier Mono Blocks and saw the 200 listed with others that he is offering to make modifications. That says a lot of positive things about the Outlaw 200. It has to be a good piece of equipment before it is even a considered. If I get the 200 I am definitely going to write him and see what the Mods are to the unit. The bad side is Modifications generally end the Manufacturing warranty and you are on your own at that point. In my experience it is often worth it, but I alway hesitate if it is a big buck item unless the mod is honored by the OEM. I know Jolida and Music Hall honor some mods to their equipment. I am not familar enough with the Outlaw policy. Anyway for the sake of discussion I found this interesting.

Before you void your warranty getting modifications to a piece, you might want to stop and ask yourself what, if anything, you are actually trying to correct. If you buy the Model 200 and you like the sound, why mess with it?

Outlaw amplifiers seem to have some truly exceptional design standards, judging from the quality of the Model 770 I bought.

While I'm sure that the guys at Parts Connexion are nice folks who need to put food on their tables, I suspect that a lot of what they do is snake oil aimed at people who are convinced that no product is any good unless it has been tweaked.

Personally, I'd never even consider such a modification unless there was a definite feature or quality that a component was lacking, such as the MSB DVD-A/SACD modification to the Lexicon MC-1: it gives the MC-1 a feature that it lacks.

Jeff

Yup, I wouldn't have anybody mess with the 200, especially someone who wasn't involved in the actual design in the first place. There needs to be a specific problem to fix to make it worthwhile. Things like "improved soundstage" and "better pace" don't qualify for excuses to do a mod.

Interesting point Jeff and one I am sure a lot of people have. A number of people say the same things about cables, power cords, and other audio tweeks. I even draw the line at some of the tweeks, as I do not see a way to benefit from them. I have had a number of pieces modded, and a lot of times to equipment I was perfectly happy with at the time. It is all about the music and the sound and trying to improve that at a reasonable cost. If cost is not an object we would not be buying Outlaws and others anyway, we would be spending $50,000 for some exotic amplifier that only 200 people in the world will ever own. Some of my mods have made significant improvements for very little cost. A case in point is converting a Tube amp to operate in Triode. Definite improvement to my Quicksilvers and I was not looking for anything extra out of them. Also cheap, just a few minutes and some soldering. Second time around I decided I wanted a switch to go back and forth on my Sonic Frontiers. A little more time and effort but worth it. A $100 change to my Quad ESL 63s by replacing some capacitors and resisters to upgrades was stunning. I had to get a friend to help me with that. You are right in one respect, if you are completely happy with it and don't even want to think about an improvement then leave it stock. If you are thinking about trading it in however as something is missing to you, a mod may save you money and improve that piece of equipment beyond what a stock unit is capable. "Snake oil", I disagree. I was in manufacturing my entire life. There are always short cuts to the process of making a unit in any business. You have to do this to keep the cost of the unit to a point where it will compete. Secondly you have to have your cost at a point where you can sell it at a price people will pay. You try to do that and put out a product that is good quality. AN exra $10 in parts that I add to the unit at home taken to the manufacturing side would probably increase the sales price by a $100 or more. Does that make the stock unit a bad product. NO!! It makes it a good mid fi product priced accordingly. If you go into that unit and replace the lower cost parts with higer quality ones that make a definite improvement in the sound is that "snake oil". Not in my opinion. My personal opinion having been in this hobby of over 30 years is that it is a logical course to consider. Mark my words you don't have to do it, just something to investigate and consider weighing all the positives and negatives. I made improvements to a $5000 pair of speakers that everyone raved about. Yet when I got inside I was surprised at the low quality of some of the parts. As I have said small changes led to major improvements. That was not snake oil, and it was cheaper than sellng the speakers and buying new ones. If (and that is an if), I decided to go that route, I would weigh all the options first. I am in the process of doing that now with another piece of equipment. Mod it or sell it and buy a few steps up the ladder. With this paticular piece I have decided to sell. Modding is not always the answer and it is not for everyone. But in my opinion you can always improve the typical stock maufactured equipment, be that cars, hifi, TVs or anything else you use everyday. And it does not make it all snake oil or a bad thing. Just a choice, sometimes an intelligent one. But if you cannot do the work or at least check on the work being done and if you do not know at least by reputation the people doing it then it may be a bad mistake. In this case I would not hesitate if I wanted to do it. In others I would.

[This message has been edited by OFCCM (edited June 06, 2003).]

Soundhound,

If you are looking for an "excuse" to modify you should not even consider. As far as your other comments, they make very little sense to me. Again the whole idea is to improve performance and sound at a reasonable price. The 200 with its entry level price is ideal for this.

First what is your opinion of Jolida and Musica Hall. Mine is Small Companies fighting the big boys and doing a great job. Reminds me of our Outlaws. Now if you have time take a look at these sites.

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ddampstran&1059186113

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?dddgtlplay&1059447382

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/musichall/cd25.html

http://www.musicalconcepts.com/mus_con.htm

http://www.partsconnexion.com/modservice.php

These will give you an idea of what a well thought out mod and the company doing it is able to accomplish. And notice that Jolida and Music Hall honor the modification and the warranty remains. BTW, I will be buying the 200 soon. The thought that it can be modded and made to sound better pushed me that way. I may not get it modded for 2 or 3 years, but when I am ready there is a good company out ther ready to handle. BY then the Outlaws may be offering there own upgrade for it.

I don't really have any argument with your original post regarding the transformation from tetrode to tridode etc. These are substantive modifications that can and do make the world of difference. They are a basic change in topology. My beef is with some of the mods that do fall into the "snake oil" category, some of which involve changing components basically for the sake of doing so. The benefits are often touted as "increased soundstage" or some other such indefinable claim. There are good reasons for changing things like capacitor types, and not so good reasons. Changes that can be defended by sound electronics theory are the only ones I pay attention to.

There are some very good mods available which do address cost cutting in the manufacturing phase. I have no beef with these. It's the mod-for-the-sake-of-modding mentality that I take issue with. All mods are not created equal.

The links you provided do not really tell me anything. Frankly, I don't care what manufacturers or those who do the mods say. They have their own self interests in mind and a huge grain of salt is indicated when evaluating their claims.

BTW, I design and construct a good amount of my own equipment, which is mostly tubed.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited June 06, 2003).]

Hi Soundhound,

I agree with you 100%. I gave the sites just as a way to show that some manufacturers are allowing the mods and still honoring the factory warranty, which would indicate to me that they must at least have some confidence in the company doing them. As you stated and I meant to state, don't mod for the sake of doing it. Even then it helps if you can do it yourself. I can undo most of my own mistakes I started this whole thread because knowing a little about the Company I thought it was very interesting that they considered the M200 a candidate for improvement by mods. I did not mean it was a good thing for everyone by any means. He does not just take any piece of equipment and promise the world. What I was trying to do was compliment the Outlaw Product. It is actually moving me in the direction of getting one or two of them. In my younger years I would just find out what he was doing and then try it myself. The price point of the M200 is excellent for such a project if you know what your doing. If you lose the warranty and need it you are not out a lot of money. I would hesitate to try that on a $1000 amp especially at my age and present state of decay. Anyway enough of this, I enjoy yours and Jeff's post so let's move on to other things. When I get around to ordering them I will let everyone know what I think.

Good arguments either way, but regardless, OFCCM is right: it is an interesting link.

Thanks for the heads up, I had never even heard of parts connexion prior to your post.

SoundHound,

Perhaps you can get Parts Connexion to mod the 200 so that it uses tubes.

Jeff

I had thought this thread was closed and then I saw this. No comments one way or the other, from me I just thought this should be on the 200 discussion board. I still plan on buying 1 to 3 through the Outlaws and any mods I would make are probably 2 or 3 years down the road. Also since I plan on using my M200's as center and surround the only one I would be tempted to go this level on would be the center channel. I just have to many other things I am trying to do to get involved at this time and I can't afford this price and do all the others. But it is interesting. When I started this thread I had no idea I would see this being sold by anyone as a retail product. I pictured it as something current 200 owners might want to have done or do themselves. Well here is the site on Audiogon and what they are doing to the amps.

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ddampstran&1060302716&2&3&4&

OFCCM,

If you're definitely going to get the mods done, perhaps you'd be interested in performing an experiment?

What I suggest is only get one 200 modded initially, and then arrange to do a level-matched double-blind test between one of the unmodded ones and one of the modded ones. If you can tell the difference between the two in a level-matched, double-blind test, and you prefer the modified version, then you've proven that the modification is worth it.

Jeff

Jeff,

In the first place I made it clear I would never mod ANYTHING without first having an extended period of time with the stock units in my listening room. Secondly it is not very high on my list of priorities. So any test I did would be so far down the line as to render it worthless. That said I would be interested in finding out how they sound.

However a double blind test would not prove a thing. How are we going to hold a legitimate double blind test in the internet environment. In theory it sounds good, but how do we set it up. If I am setting up the double blind test in my area, Are you going to believe me if I said there is a significant difference and published all the opinions of my friends in this area under a double blind setting. You would question my methods, my findings and then when all else failed just say I was biased in this debate. And in all honesty you would be right to do this. If you are in Maine and I am in Alabama there is just not a legitimate, inexpensive way to set this up. However we could all put up a little green and get a pair of these modded and pass them around letting those with stock units compare against the modded units. Surely there are enough 200 owners out there willing to put up a little money and hold the cost down. I think you would need to do this in stereo not multi channel. My interest in a mod for a center was based on how I felt they would sound with my current system. For the purpose of a serious listening test it would have to be 2 channels at a time or in a mono set up. I trust my ears, but not while listening in an HT format. So we use Music and either 2 channel or mono. We could have everyone set up one speaker and listen in mono using one unit at a time which is the perfect way to do it and save cost, but I don't think enough people would be willing to go to the trouble to change their home set up. Also if you think we can really hear a difference listening and watching "Rambo 3" then we are wasting everyone's time and money. So those involved would have to own at least 2 stock units to start with. I am willing to do that. We might even catch the interest of the retailer and if he is confident in his product he might cut us some slack on the price, say at his cost. Those involved in the test would have to be responsible for the frieght to the next guy or gal. At the end eveyone could post views. If after the test someone wanted the units they could buy out the others minus the fright. If the units were an absolute stinko we could auction them off and donate the money to an appropiate charity and write it off on taxs. That is a better way to handle it.

Now in all honesty this sounds good but after everyone has had a chance to listen to the units against his or her stock units in their listening rooms, we still won't prove anything except that we all have opinions. We will certainly have fun listening and enjoy a lot of debate. If enough people were involved we only spend a little money doing it. I would be interested in that and give my time and money (if we got enough people involved).

So now we have high interst level, low cost, and a chance for eveyone to get involved. Sounds good to me, but someone else needs to be the ringleader. I just can't do it right now. I can invest and participate but not set it up.

Also if you are just throwing this "double blind test" post out there as a kind of put your money where your mouth is gesture then I am not interested. I have been in this hobby to many years to be baited into something. During this debate I have gone out of my way to try not to influence anyone, pointing out that this is not for everyone. My post have at least had a little thought to them along with some opinions and experience. The true test is in the ears of the listener and only they can decide what is worth it and what is not.

[This message has been edited by OFCCM (edited June 10, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by OFCCM (edited June 10, 2003).]

When I am typing a book I need spellcheck. Retirement has made me lazy, sorry for any mistakes but I am not editing the above post again.

Darn, did it again

[This message has been edited by OFCCM (edited June 10, 2003).]

OFCCM,

I agree with you about the upgrade to electrostatic speakers. I did similar upgrades to resistors, caps, connectors and even changed the circuit topology a bit on my Acoustat speakers. I am VERY please with the improvement to the sound.

"AN exra $10 in parts that I add to the unit at home taken to the manufacturing side would probably increase the sales price by a $100 or more."

I do not understand why this has to be so. If a mfr. decides to use a $10.50 audiophile grade input coupling cap. instead of a $0.50, and there are no other changes to the production line other than installing the $10 more expensive part on the circuit board, then I do not see why the cost would go up by $100, except of course, if the mfr. gets greedy. Plus, for a part you or I would pay $10.50 for, a mfr. would buy in quantities so that the price per unit would be vastly less.

"Our model xyz amp, now with audiophile bombast model $$$ capacitors" may increase the panache of the product by $100. Don't sell the steak, sell the sizzle.

Paul


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the 1derful1

Okay, notice the "Deputy" under my name, so this may be a stupid question but...

There was a review of the M200 linked in a previous post that said "The frequency response is the only area I see room for improvement. It starts rolling off about 3 kHz, although it is down only 0.3 db at 20 kHz. The low end though suffers a bit, dropping 1 dB at 20 Hz. Perhaps this is an overzealous use of an input capacitor (these are commonly used to prevent DC from getting into the power amplifier from the preamplifier). I would suggest using a higher value to keep it reasonably flat to 20 Hz. It is not so much that you can't boost the low end with a tone control somewhere, but there is phase shift where you have frequency response rolloff."

Is this something that could be safely modified by an end user? Do you know if any of the parts connexion's mods address this issue?

That input capacitor might be a bit difficult to find for someone who is not trained in electronics. In any event, if you use bass management and roll off the bass going to one of the 200's channels, what does it matter if it's down 1db at 20Hz?

True enough. Especially since one can barely hear 20hz!

Jeff

Well this is hardly scientific but the M200's do not sound to me any more rolled off than my previous Adcom 565 amps which are supposedly not significantly rolled off (0 db) at 20 KHz. They sound significantly less rolled off than the Marantz M500 to me. YMMV.

Yeah, if those rolloffs exist, they are so small that you probably wouldn't be able to hear them except under very critical conditions while listening to pink noise.

But, depending upon the shade of pink your pink noise is (or if you are using white noise whose white kelvin value is on the low-is side) you might be able to just barely hear a difference if the 1dB attenuation at 20Hz is switched in and out as in a A-B comparison.

Assuming this attenuation at 20Hz is caused by the input coupling cap, adding another one in parallel (leaving the original one in place) will move the -1DB point below 20Hz. Plus, you can select your audiophile capacitor of choice. The additional cap can be easily removed in case you want to return the amp to it's stock condidtion.

Noting the comment about the high frequencies starting a rolloff at 3KHz and being 0.3 dB down at 20KHz, if this rolloff is caused by a bessel type low pass filer, then the designer is after superior (less) phase shift in the passband at the (slight) expense of a somewhat lower in frequency start of the amplitude rollof, a design approach that I like.

Paul

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the 1derful1

[This message has been edited by Paul J. Stiles (edited June 22, 2003).]

Sorry to raise this topic from the grave, but I just read this review today of some modded M-200 amps:

www.6moons.com/audioreviews/outlaw/m200.html

The reviewer seems to have these conclusions:

* The basic Outlaw design of these amps is nice and compact.

* The Outlaw price for these amps in relation to possible performance level is amazing. He basically calls them an outright steal of a bargain.

More weirdness, he never tests the modded amps vs. the unmodded amps!! His conclusion of the modded amps is that their price does not justify the result. I really wish this guy could get his hands on some unmodded amps. At least then, he would be able to talk about some of the mods.

This whole review is just really strange. He talks a lot about Outlaw even though he's not reviewing a stock Outlaw product. Seems a little inconsistent to me.

it sounds like all the modifications added was transformer hum

my good ole stock m200's are completely silent even if they've been on all day...