WOW! This sounds sooo nice.

My friend came over today with his Radio Shack Sound Meter and I set it up on a tripod. He has the Avia Test DVD so we used that to adjust everything.

We ended up changing the speaker wiring setup to the Sub. I have the BA 9000 II sat/sub system. BA recommends using the LFE and then also connecting the RF/LF speakers to the Sub and using the dial on the front of the sub for adjustment. We tried that and we could not get the fine details set. The bass was all over the place and not remaining steady. I diconnected the speaker wires from the sub and taped them off with electrical tape.

We were then able to use the 1050's sub settings and the bass was much more stable.

I wish the 1050 offered seperate adjustments for the front L/R speakers independantly of one another like the rears are. My RF is 1-2db higher than my LF. I just want to be able to tune is perfectly.

At 62 on the volume dial this equaled 75db at where the Sound Meter was placed. Because of how my Den is situated the meter went between my two main listening areas, set at ear level.

I had watched LOTR last night before we tuned everything and I could tell the sound was all over the place, with the bass overpowering the fronts and center. Now everything is so much better. The biggest change I can hear is my rear surrounds are now better adjusted and the bass does not overpower the rest of the speakers.

My friend is almost done putting his system together, just awaiting delivery on a few more items(screen and then the projector gets hung), but he currently has an SVS Ultra and Merlin VSM fronts and a TSM Center. He is also getting another 2-4 TSMs for his surrounds as well as another Ultra! lol He was very happy with how my system sounds.

We then played LOTR where they are in the cave and cross the bridge just to hear how it sounds now. WOW! The bass is much tighter and not overpowering the rest of the speakers. We then rasied the center just a hair for a bit more voice, but other than that everything seems just about right.

Now I have to order my Sony Service Manual so we can adjust the TV settings. We did some minor adjusting using the basic controls, but I have to adjust the screen better.

Larry

I used this very helpful site when doing service mode adjustments to my 32" Sony Wega.

This is a general guide:

http://209.145.176.7/~090/awh/how2adj.html#5

...and from another part of the site, here is a list of codes for the Sony XBRs, but they were pretty much all the same for my Wega.

http://209.145.176.7/~090/awh/sonyadj.html

Good luck! BTW i would follow the advice on the site about writing down the initial settings before you adjust them. I found that even adjusting one at a time it's easy to lose track.

Thanks, I have already been to both of those sites. I don't have an XBR and have compared all of my settings to what is on the site. Nothing matches.

I have a KV32FS100, a newer model and not the higher end WEGA's.

I have a spreadsheet 6 pages long of every setting in the TV. Monday I am ordering the Service Manual for the TV.

Which Sony do you have?

Larry

Interesting. I found I had much better performance when using both the LFE and FL/FR setup. Of course, I've got the original 9000, not the MK II.

I had the same problem you do in regards to the fronts not balancing. I found that by adjusting the physical position of the speakers (moving them left, right, etc.) I was able to get them to come in to perfect alignment.

Hope you're having fun, and welcome to the Outlaw family!

Like I said I ran all of the wires to use both. The problem was we could not get the sub to remain at a constant db level. It kept fluctuating. I was trying to adjust the levels using the dial on the front of the sub. I began a the 11 o'clock posistion as the manual states. I then eventually got it to 9 o'clock. It went from 87db down to 64db. I kept barely moving the dial and it would jump 3-6db at a time. If left at lets say 70db and we did a sweep of the speakers, where it would do lets say LF and Sub, or RR and sub, the sub reading would bounce up and down, without me even touching anything!

Obviously performing any adjustments with the 1050 didn't do a thing to the sub.

We decided to remove the speaker wires from the sub and try again. This time using the 1050 to make the minute changes. What a world of difference. The sub remained where we set it everything worked out perfect.

We adjusted the speakers to 75db, not 85db. No way I am going to listen that loud, especially if my Mom were home. lol

I plan on trying again with the fronts by adjusting the angle of the speakers to see if I can quiet down the RF 2db as compared to the LF. Also want to raise the center just a hair.

One thing I am so happy with from these speakers is how well they are covering the entire room in sound. I have the fronts mounted because of the room layout in a very odd way. the LF is about 3.5' away from the TV, but 6'6" off the ground. The RF is 3' from the TV and the same 6'6" off the ground. Their was no way to get the speakers down at ear level without the risk of them getting hit or broken off the wall. My center is sitting right over the center of the TV The rears are 2' above ear level, facing one another on opposite walls. The Sub is in the far corner of the room, about 6-12" off each wall. Sounds pretty good.

I will try and get pics posted later in the week of everything.

Larry

Larry
Curious to the output level. You say that on the 1050's volume dial of 62, the meter reads 75 db at the listening position. Am I understanding this correctly? If that is true your speakers must have a verily low effiency rating (83db or less?) My speakers rated at 90db effiency to achieve the 75db level in DVD mode (all channels)at listening position needs the volume dial set to 52.
But I suppose it also depends on the room volume. I have a small listening room, about 13X16 X8'ceilings.
I've really enjoyed my 1050. I've just got started in the SACD realm. That's another great listening experience.

I am running BA 9000 MkII sats and sub. They have an 89db sensitivity rating.

Sensitivity (1 watt (2.83v) at 1m) = 89db

What speakers are you running? Where are they situated in relation to where your sitting area is located? Because mine are high up on the wall could be the reason why I need to turn the volume higher to achieve the 75db readings. But I am just guessing.

My room is 18' wide, 12' long and 8' ceilings.

My TV is about 4 feet off the right wall, I sit about 9 feet from the screen +/-.

___________________18'-0"___________
S----------------LF-----[=CC=]----RF

12'-0"

LR__________________X__________X__RR

S = Sub
LF = Left Front Micro 90xII
RF = Right Front Micro 90xII
CC = Center Micro 90cII and TV 32" Sony
LR = Left Rear Micro 80xII
RR = Right Rear Micro 80xII
X = The main two listening areas. A table is between the two X's.

The LF/RF are approximately 6'6" to the bottom of each speaker. They are mounted on the wall with the MBR brackets, angled downwards and in slightly towards the X's.

The RF/RR are on the 12' walls facing into the room, with a slight downward angle and also slightly angled into the room, very slight.

The CC is directly over the TV.

I will get pics posted over the holiday as soon as I get a chance. I have some pics, just have not taken pics of speaker locations.

Does the above "diagram" make sense?

Larry

Larry, curious about your results. I have the BA 9000II setup as well, and I haven't noticed the sub wandering when the LFE of the sub is connected and the L/R binding posts on the sub are connected to the LF and RF, speakers, respectively.

Could it be something on your test DVD? Did you get the same results using the 1050 test mode? How about when you play DVD's, would you notice a "wandering"?

I haven't fiddled with it much since initial setup , been too busy enjoying the DVDs. Still, there's always room for improvement.... might want to play around a bit to see if I could recreate your problem.

Cheers, UW

I honestly don't know what the problem was. It sounded ok before we configured everything, but it was obvious the speakers needed to be adjusted and "tuned". It was very bass heavy. One thing I did notice though, when I was watching LOTR Friday the loud passages were all over the map. If I had the 1050 set to 45 and then had to lower it to lets say 35 for one scene I had to lower it to 25 for another and sometimes I had to raise the volume above 50 to get the same bass. Yes I know different scenes offer different bass, but you can tell.

I didn't have the speaker wire running from the sub to each speaker. I ran it to the 1050 and twisted the LF Sat with the LF Sub and then connected it to the 1050. I did the same for the RF. BA said this is perfectly fine.

If you read page 10 of the BA 9000II manual it says I can use just the LFE cable so long as I make the fronts Small. I like this better anyway, I can control the sub using the 1050, where before I would have to walk over to the sub and fiddle with the innacurate dial. At least innacurate on mine.

Where do you have your 1050 set to for 75db? Where are your 90cII's mounted? Wall or stands at ear level?

I could experiment by taking them off the wall and seeing what the readings would be if placed at ear level on either side of the TV . . .

Larry

I believe that the sub's speaker-level outputs have a high-pass filter on them. By connecting the speakers and sub to the 1050's binding posts, all of the low frequency material in the left and right channels was being reproduced twice (or at least as much of it as the speakers could handle what was within the range that the sub was handling). That would certainly give you some "bloated" bass -- and there's lots of bass to hear in the original release of Fellowship of the Ring. I don't know that I entirely agree with BA on that wiring configuration being very good, for the very reasons that you've already discovered.

Had the speakers been connected to the speaker outputs of the subwoofer, the sub's crossovers would have allowed the sub to handle the low frequency material and also weed that material out of the signals going to the satellites so that they didn't try to reproduce it as well. Owl's_Warder apparently has had good luck with wiring the sub via LFE and passing the speaker signals for the mains through the sub and on to the speaker. On the other hand, the approach you are currently using -- speakers as "small" and sub connected via LFE output only -- is very valid. Heck, it's the normal approach for people without sat/sub setups.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

[This message has been edited by gonk (edited December 23, 2002).]

Larry, not sure how to answer the question "Where do you have your 1050 set to for 75db?" Are you asking what the 1050 volume control is to get 75db on the Radio Shack decibel meter?

My LF and RF are 6' high, mounted w/ BA's "swivel mounting kit" so that they point down and inward a bit. Sub is next to the TV cabinet. Room is longer than it is wide, so the surrounds are a bit back.

I misspoke earlier -- I too connected the L and R Sub wires to the LF and RF speaker wires at the 1050 binding posts (imagine a star configuration from the 1050). I also use a shielded RCA plug to the LFE of the sub, maybe that makes a difference.

Gonk, what do you mean by "Had the speakers been connected to the speaker outputs of the subwoofer, the sub's crossovers would have allowed the sub to handle the low frequency material and also weed that material out of the signals going to the satellites so that they didn't try to reproduce it as well." ?

Not to stir trouble, but those speaker sub connections are inputs, aren't they? They don't modify the signals sent to the LF and RF speakers. I'm guessing that the sub filters the L/R speaker signals, and combines the filtered L/R signals with the LFE signal.

Here's newman's earlier post that described his experience with the BA 9000's. Maybe I need to pull out my manuals and notes to get a better understanding of all this. (Or maybe I need to contact Boston Acoustics to get a better understanding of how their sub works???)

[This message has been edited by urbnwndsfr (edited December 23, 2002).]

Stir away, here's a big spoon -- because I had assumed that the sub in the BA 9000's was configured similarly to other subs that I'd seen before (for example, the SVS PC-Plus amp and some passive subs in sub/sat systems). Those subs have two sets of binding posts -- left and right inputs that would be connected to the receiver's left and right speaker outputs, and left and right outputs that the speakers themselves are connected to. The subwoofer's inputs would pass to a crossover circuit to strip away the high frequency material (the low-pass filter) so the sub only gets the material that it is capable of reproducing. At the same time, the sub's crossovers would send the original signal through a high-pass filter to remove the bass from the signal being passed along to the sub's outputs (and from there to the speakers). If it does not do so, then you will get the same bass signal twice.

However, my assumption was quite thoroughly wrong! A quick visit to the Tech Support page at BA's site gave me a link to the manual for the 9000 II system. According to the manual (beginning around page 7), the Micro PV sub has speaker level inputs but no speaker level outputs. Having discovered that, I'm off to scratch my head a little and try to determine why BA would recommend hooking up a powered sub via both line level and speaker level connections...

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Ok, have a look at this . . .

http://www.bostonacoustics.com/Manuals/9000II9500Man.pdf

On page 10 is how I have my speakers connected. I at first tried it how the diagram is configured. With the sub speaker wires running to the 1050 and the sat wires running to the 1050. This gave the sound I described. I then ONLY disconnected the wires at the sub to try it out.

My LFE cable is an Acoustic Research LFE cable, I assume it is shielded.

urbnwndsfr: Yes, I was asking at what volume number the 1050 is reading when you are seeing 75db from the front speakers. Mine is at 62 using the Avia CD.

It sounds like our speakers are in the same basic configuration/location.

My sub is on a 25' LFE cable because it is placed about 12-14 feet from my 1050 and had a choice of a 12 or a 25' cable. Plus I ran the wires under the floor and needed the extra length for everything.

gonk: I will post my picture when I get home tonight. The back of the BA Sub has 4 connections:

LF Speaker +/-
RF Speaker +/-
LFE
Sub Out

The speaker connections are the cheap spring loaded things. My 14/2 wire barely fit. It was also quite a struggle to get two 14/2 wires into the back of the 1050, forget about even attempting to do that in the Micro 90xII sats! lol

Gonk, while you are off scratching your head, read page 10 of the manual.

Larry

Larry

Don't worry about the pics -- I found it in the manual that you linked earlier. Just not sure yet why they are recommending it, although Newman has some good stuff in his post (haven't had time to go through it the way I want to).

As for the wiring -- been there. I bi-wire my mains and center, and I initially tucked two sets of 12ga wire into each binding post on those channels back before I got my 750. I strongly recommend spades for that. Still not easy to do while reaching around the back of an entertainment center, but easier...

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I read Newman's post and it didn't make sense to me . . . he sounded as though he set the 1050 to 120hz x-over for the sub, plus he has the RCA wire running from the sub-out on the sub to either the LFE on the 1050 or something he never mentions, still not certain on that.

He also talks about a 120hz low pass filter in the BA sub, as far as I know the sub has a 150hz x-over . . . or is the low pass filter NOT the same as the x-over?

He also talks about an LPF connector, what is that? I have an LFE and a sub-out.

I guess it is also entirely possible that BA changed the sub between March and November(my sub build date) I will contact BA tomorrow and see if I can get some answers.

Go back and read newman's post and tell me if it does or does not confuse you.

Larry

LarryTT,

(responding to your question a number of posts ago)

I have the same TV as you, I think...mine's the Sony KV-32FS10. It's two years old. I found that pretty much all the codes on those sites were the same from the XBR to my TV, but there were a bunch on the XBR that I didnt' have. But for sure all of the pincushion, bow, v-angle, etc., that you use to get a straight, square picture was the same. But if they are not, I found it pretty easy to figure out how all of that stuff works and get a dialed in picture.

I'm sure you are using the crosshatch pattern from the Avia disk (but if not, that's the right thing to use). I was able to get the picture a big step forward w/o ordering the service manual.

HDCO1107: I have the KV32FS100, it is the new version, got it a few weeks ago.

I ordered the Service Manual just to have it. I compared my 6 page Excel spreadsheet of every single code that I wrote down to the various XBR codes on a few different sites. Very few even look the same. I would rather spend the $30 for the manual then risk possibly messing with something that should not be messed with. This way I might even be able to fine tune the TV even better.

I will post all of my results once I am finished.

Larry

This is how I had the front speakers and the sub speaker wires connected.



[This message has been edited by LarryTT (edited December 23, 2002).]

Larger Photo:

Here is the back of the BA Sub.

Larry

[This message has been edited by LarryTT (edited December 24, 2002).]

Larry, the way I read Newman's post, is that he ended up using the configuration on page 10 of the BA manual (speaker-level and LFE connections). I agree it's a bit confusing, but "filtered" means the Sub input of the BA sub, and "unfiltered" means the LFE input of the BA sub.

It sounds like this whole debate is summarized on page 10 of the BA manual:

Option 1 (What I use, what you tried and didn't like):

Dolby Digital Systems
The recommended wiring for all Dolby Digital receivers is to use both speaker wire and
line-level connections to the subwoofer, as shown below. Use an RCA cable (not included) to connect your receiver’s Sub out or LFE out jack to the appropriate Line in jack on the subwoofer, as shown below. On your receiver’s set-up menu:
Select “LARGE” for the front left/right speakers.
Select “SMALL” for the center channel speaker and the rear surround speakers .
Select “SUBWOOFER-YES”.

Option 2 (what you seem to prefer):

NOTE: It is also acceptable (though not optimal) to connect the subwoofer to the Dolby Digital receiver’s “Sub out” or “LFE out” without also using speaker wires. In this configuration, on your receiver’s set-up menu:
Select “SMALL” for the front left/right speakers.
Select “SMALL” for the center channel speaker and the rear surround speakers .
Select “SUBWOOFER-YES”.
When using this configuration, refer to the Dolby Pro Logic wiring diagram shown on page 9. [only LFE or Sub input of BA Sub connected to receiver LFE/Sub output]

The real question is why does BA consider Option 2 not optimal. Let me know BA's response. If they don't answer, maybe I'll try asking them as well.

Cheers, UW

[This message has been edited by urbnwndsfr (edited December 24, 2002).]

UW: I realized that part. It was just his writing I guess. I am going to try reconnecting the speaker wires and then connecting the RCA to the sub-out on the sub and the sub-out on the 1050, if the 1050 has such a connection. lol

I want to see if that makes any difference. If I don't see any measureable difference or hear anything different I will leave the sub with just the RCA and put it back into the LFE connection.

I tried calling BA and they closed early. I will try them again either Thursday or Monday.

Larry

I spoke with tech support at Boston Acoustics, I’ll try to summarize [Larry, see bottom of message]:

Typically a Dolby Digital receiver has an LFE (Low Frequency Effects) output with a fixed low pass filter (LPF), typically at 80 Hz per THX spec.

The Micro90pvII subwoofer in the BA 9000 II has a fixed LPF (fourth order –24dB/octave slope @ 150Hz), and was engineered to “blend” with the satellites. The Micro 90XII has a built-in high pass filter (HPF) around 150Hz, so it will not try to reproduce bass. Hence, there was not a need for a variable crossover, since it was designed to sound as good as possible out of the box.

Now that Dolby Digital receivers have bass management for fine tuning, if you set the bass management to "SMALL", most receivers utilize a 80-90 HPF for the "SMALL" configuration (“LARGE” configuration provides full range audio).

So if you connected your satellites with speaker wire, and your sub with a line level connection, you would have a gap in between the 90-150Hz band. It may sound OK in the room, but it may sound a little thin.

The Micro90pvII sub was engineered to handle both line level and speaker level connections at the same time, without overloading the input stage.

The line level input “From LFE out” is for the discrete sixth bass channel (“.1”) in the 5.1 setup, which is crossed over to the low freq. by the receiver’s bass management. The line level input “From LFE out” bypasses the crossover circuitry in the subwoofer.

The line level input “From SUB Out” is for an older ProLogic receiver that outputs a full range output that needs to be filtered by the sub. This line level input and the speaker level connections are sent to the 150Hz fourth-order LPF.

With respect to receivers utilizing variable crossover, THX specifies the crossover at 80Hz, which typically works the best. If you set the crossover at 150Hz, it may make the sub a bit directional depending on room placement.

[Larry, what's the crossover (XOVER) freq. setting in the 1050? You might want to try reducing the setting down toward 80Hz (mine's set at 150Hz and sounds fine, but room dynamics may be a big part). Maybe that will reduce the bass coming from the LFE a bit on the "heavy bass scenes". See p.22 of the Outlaw manual.

Also, I looked over your room diagram, and it looks like your sub is WAY to the left. You might try moving the sub away from the edge of the wall a bit to reduce the bass output. Hope this helps ]

Cheers, UW.

UW:

Thanks, glad you were able to get throught to BA.

I can't move the sub from the far left corner of the room because of how the room is layed out with furniture and a 6 foot sliding door between the sub and the edge of the entertainment center.

I have the 1050 set for 150Hz and it does sound directional sometimes. I will try 120Hz and see if that makes it better. I have the RCA cable plugged into the Subs LFE Out connection. I never got a chance to experiment, I am heading down now to play for a little while. I'm going to try both the 120Hz setting on the 1050 while plugged into the LFE out and also the Sub Out connection.

Now that my camera batteries are charged I will also take pictures of the room and show how everything is placed throughout the room.

Let me see if I understand something you said. If I use the LFE Out, then the 150Hz x-over is not being used in the Sub and instead is using the xover from the 1050, right? If I were to use the SubOut then the 150Hz xover is being used and it will ignore the xover from the 1050? Is that what you wrote? I am going to have to double check to make certain I am plugged into the correct connection on the Sub. Maybe that is why I had to unplug the speaker wires.

Ok, I need to head downstairs and check all of this stuff now and I will write down exactly what my settings are for everything when I am finished.

Thanks for the help.

Larry

Right, the Sub is relying on the 1050 providing the Low Frequency Effects signal from the Dolby Digital 5.1 bass management. (Presumably since you're bypassing the low pass filter, you could introduce distortion in the sub by sending signals above 150 Hz through the LFE input).



Almost: the SubOut input sends the signal (assumed to be a full range output 20Hz - 20kHz) to the sub's fixed 150Hz low pass filter (fourth order at -24dB/octave). If the input to the SubOut input is already filtered by the 1050 at 150Hz (second order at -12dB/octave), then the output of the low pass filter in the sub has a much sharper cutoff (-36dB/octave relative to the original signal). Result: probably negligible difference in midrange compared to using LFE input, issue of why use the filter if you don't need it.

It gets more interesting when you have the xover of the 1050 lower than the 150Hz of the sub: say you set the 1050 xover at 100Hz, the signal would have a -12dB/octave slope from 100 to 150Hz, then a -36dB/octave slope past 150Hz. Then again, probably little difference compared to using LFE input.

I think your best bet is to test by using onlythe LFE input, then experiment with the 1050 xover settings at 150, 60, and in between (you should hear some "holes" when xover=60). Then repeat the test with the speaker wires connected as well (this should fill in the holes).

My guess is that you'll use an xover setting around 100 with the speaker wires connected. I hope .

Enjoy your lab work, looking forward to the report.


[This message has been edited by urbnwndsfr (edited December 27, 2002).]

I will be posting an update to this either tomorrow or this weekend.

So far the best sound I am hearing is with the RCA plugged into the LFE on the Sub and no speaker wires. Some DVDs sound great with the x-over at 100Hz and others sound great at 120Hz! lol How can I make the final decision?

I was also able to get my front speaker adjusted evenly by angling the right speaker slightly and they are both now reading 75db's at 62 on the 1050.

I now need to reconnect the speaker wire and run my tests all over again. lol I am using about 6 DVD's with various scenes and rerunning the scenes over and over again to compare the different x-over settings. I have actually done this blindfolded and also have gotten my Mom into the act. lol I have the remote in my hand and have been pressing the xover button and not known what setting has been chosen. In this way I have already ruled out 60, 80, 150 and 200 xovers. 150 was way too directional don't even talk about the others. lol

I am having a real hard time deciding on 100 or 120 though. Maybe with more testing one will jump out at me as sounding better...

I can only imagine how much my house would shake with an SVS.

Larry

Larry
On my setup, Tempest sub and ARdiy speakers (speakers can handle down to 38Hz (measured) before roll-off) I found the best crossover setting of 100Hz. At this setting when measuring with the Spl meter and using a frequency tones disc I found the response the flattest down to 20Hz (don't have any frequency tones below 20 on my disc). I definitely don't hear where the subwoofer is; it blends in very well with my 6 speaker setup. I think every system and room acoustics is unique; therefore experimentation is the key in finding the best crossover point. When listening to multichannel SACD the bass appears to come from wherever the bass is placed on the sound stage.
By the way I'm loving my 1050, a great buy!!!!

MCH:

I am using the Avia disk and it goes down below 20Hz if I remember correctly. I don't recall exactly where I can hear the sub stopping, somewhere in the 30Hz range, probably high 30's.

How do you know your sub is Flat down to 20Hz? Do you actually have some equipment to measure this? I only have an SPL, Avia and my ears. . .

Larry

Larry
For various frequency I have a disc that starts at 20 Hz (for 10seconds), the next track is 25 Hz (for 10 seconds) etc. There are a total of 31 frequency tones, from 20Hz to 20,000 Hz on my disc. When I say flat, I don't mean perfectly flat with exactly the same db level at every frequency; there may be a slight fluctuation: the worst being possibly 3db. I consider this quite good.
In the end you have to satisfy your ear. Don't get too caught up with all the technical stuff. Just sit back and enjoy the music!
Going to watch XXX tonight. This DVD should give my sub a good work out!

Larrry

I agree with MCH. "In the end you have to satisfy your ear." I think the SPL is great for setting channel levels with Pink noise and getting the Sub phase correct but not for tuning an entire frequency range. My NHT subs claim to 21Hz but I can't hear that low so it doesn't matter to me. My personal rule of thumb is to get the levels dialed in then pop in your favorite CD and listen at low and high volumes, adjust subs to YOUR liking, enjoy. I can always tell when something is out of whack when after listening to music at fairly high levels for 30 minutes or so it becomes less enjoyable and irritating. Usually I have the sub set to high.

Hint: If the dog vibrates across the floor or the ornaments are falling off the tree set the sub level back just a bit.