I would try both. You may like the DAC in the Outlaw better than the DAC in your player.

Happy Listening,
Greg

A q for the knowledgeable..

I've heard the term "break-in" bandied about now and again where it concerns new electronics. Is this just something the "high-end" folk like to throw around or is there something to it ?

The reason I ask is because if this wasn't something that the EE took into consideration during the design stage then what guarantee is there that after the "break-in" period the unit wouldn't sound worse instead of better ?

Thanks,
Mike

Break-in of modern solid state electronics is BS.

Soundhound,
Does this imply that you don’t have directional interconnects and speaker wire? How about some hi fidelity snake oil to improve the diagonal breadth of your sound stage…

SH, I find you knowledgable and have always agreed with your posts. Here, however, we differ. I never believed in "break-in" of electronics. I could never tell the difference between a Sansui and a Sony, a Pioneer or a Yamaha. As long as they were not driven to clipping, they all sounded the same. Then I bought an NAD (a loooong time ago) and realized that some electronics sounded better than others.

I still did not believe in "break-in" until the 950 came along. I did not measure response when I got it. When it first arrived, however, I was a bit concerned that it was brighter than the NAD. I could absolutely hear a difference, and I did not like it. I listened for a few days (and just so you know...I am one of those guys who never turns off equipment. Most of my equipment was well over 15 years old and still worked great, so the idea that electronics should be left on so as not to heat up and cool down as much seems to work for me). As I listened, the sound did change. It got smoother and sweeter, while staying very articulate. Could the change be measured? Probably not. Did I hear it? yes. Was it just me getting used to the sound? I highly doubt it as when I got it it seemed bright compared to the NAD. Now it just sounds cleaner, but not shrill or bright like it did at first.

I have been an audio nut for really over 30 years, as before I was 10 years old I used to sit in the basement and listen to everything from Edgar Winter to UFO to Dylan to Fleetwood Mac and Journey on my older brother's separates system. By the time I was 12 I had earned enough to buy my first stereo, a Sony/Technics/Akai system with EPI speakers. In only a few years I had moved to NAD, Nakamichi and Klipsch. I had never experienced "break-in" until the 950. I am sure that it did improve during the fisrt few days.

I guess what I am saying is that I respectfully disagree. By the way...12ga Carol in'wall speaker wire for $.19/ft works as well as any expensive cable, as does Rat Shack Gold interconnects. At least I have never heard a difference.

The whole point of good electronics design is to produce a finished product whose parameters do not change over time (and that includes their "sound"). If there are changes, this is a defect in the design. Electronics design is all about stable circuit conditions - designers use all available means to insure that the design will not change over time. In addition, unlike a mechanical object where things like wear can be accounted for and taken into consideration, component tolerance change in electronics is by it's nature unpredictible - that is why designers (at least the good ones) go to great lengths to implement design practices that will result in a stable circuit.

In solid state gear, and especially very recent designs, the compoents that have any potential of change (like discrete resistors, and capacitors) are in the minority - if you look inside something like the 950, the vast majority of circuitry is composed of integrated circuits, and these do not "change" over time unless subjected to stresses beyond their limits.

In the days of tubes, there were an abundance of components, starting with the tubes themselves, that did change over time - they wore out as the emissive material on the cathode of the tube was used. In early solid state designs that used discrete transistors, there were still components like resistors and capacitors that had DC voltages across them - and this could cause small circuit parameter changes. However, in the good designs, design techniques like negative feedback assured that the circuit remained stable over time.

When I designed equipment for testing audio circuits and assemblies for Altec Lansing, I sure as heck made sure that my designs were stable!!

Unless you do some controlled experiments with new verses "broken-in" units, going by memory of what something sounded like is completely unreliable. Do you base your impressions of the sound of "broken in" equipment with identical speakers before and after break in? Did you use the speakers at all between the time the equipment was new and "broken in"? Speakers, being electro-mechanical objects certainly do break-in, especially from the time they are new until they have many hours of use on them. The suspensions (outer and the "spider") change their characteristics with use and the resonant frequency usually lowers over time. The magnets in speakers gradually loose their charge over time, and this causes both output and frequency response changes with use. Unless you take a brand new specimen of a component and one that is heavily used - "broken in" - and directly compare them at the same time using identical outboard equipment, there is no way to tell whether any changes have taken place with regards to sound quality (BTW, I have done this experiment with new verses used examples of the same component while working for equipment manufacturers). Unless you do objective measurements to confirm the existance or non existance of circuit parameter changes there is no way to accurately say that there are any changes that have taken place.

Audio equipment is not voodoo. Designing electronics gear is not like making wine where there are subjective and "mystical" elements to take into consideration. There are no mysterious parameters of the circuit that can cause magical changes in the sound - if there are sound changes, there is something in the circuit that has changed, and this can be quantified.

Of course, if you think you hear differences, then nothing I say will convince you otherwise.

One final thought - why should "breaking in" equipment always result in "better" sound - unless that result is expected before hand? If there was such a thing as "break in", don't you think that over time it would result in a degredation in sound quality, like mechanical and electro mechanical objects degrade over time? Why should electronic audio equipment be so special that it "improves" over time, like a grand piano or violin?

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited April 03, 2004).]

I didn't "expect" to hear a break-in. It just happened. While some will say I was getting used to the new sound, I will disagree. I have never noticed a "break-in" on anything else I have ever owned.

As I am writing this, I am thinking about TV calibration experts telling people in forums to warm up their display devices for at least a half hour before calibration. And now I am thinking about the "degauss" button on my computer display. Are these electronics unstable, or is this all hogwash? I have never thought along the lines of video before, but it suddenly strikes me that video, like audio, is based on electronics. Therefore, similarities must exist.

You make very good points SH, but I must wonder if the stability you write about is based on a "warmed up" unit. As I said, I don't turn my equipment off, so it is always somewhat "warmed-up", as opposed to someone with a system in a cool damp basement who may shut their system down when not in use.

I can't explain why I heard a difference. I know I was not looking to hear one, and that I went from a little disappointed to extremely satisfied after owning the 950 for just a few days. I also know that it was at first brighter than the NAD it replaced, but is now just smooth and articulate, but not really any brighter tonally than the NAD (which I still have and use).

Finally, about the "degauss" thing. I understand it has to do with built up magnetic energy, but the point is that that built up energy is capable of creating a change in the way our electronics perform. I am not saying that my 950 needed degaussing or anything along those lines. I am only saying that electronics can be and are affected by everything from magnetics to dirty power to temperature, so why is it not possible that over a period of the first few hours of use, the flow of electricity through them and the heat involved could slightly alter their performance?

[This message has been edited by willscary (edited April 03, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by willscary (edited April 03, 2004).]

Chad, sorry...I did not mean to hijack your thread.

Analog CRT video displays are based on the same principles as vacuum tubes - the cathode ray tube is a vacuum tube. Of course it will behave the same way, wear out and eventually need replacement the same way, need a warm up period the same way, change it's characterisitcs over time the same way, need calibration, and be influenced by external magnetic fields effecting it's electron guns - hence the need for degaussing. LCD and DLP displays work on completely different principles. If they wear, the mechanism is completely different than anything based on vacuum tube technologies.

Just because different objects are "electronic" in nature, this dose not mean that they will behave the same way and have the same needs for things like calbration. A video display (especially a CRT based one) is not the same thing as a preamplifier like the 950 by a long shot. They work on completely different principles. In addition, you cannot directly compare two different objects in regards to the same parameter - it's like comparing the wear charactistics of your car with the space shuttle. When was the last time you had your cell phone "calibrated"? Has you computer shown any signs of improvement by "breaking in"?

All electronics things cannot be lumped into a single category any more than all mechanical things can. The needs, operating principles, and wear characteristics of each device within a category can be completely different.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited April 03, 2004).]

Wow, great responses.

I guess from what I'm hearing you may both be right, except that I'd guess the "break-in" period would actually be only mircoseconds after power-up until all the circuits are functioning as designed.

Oh yeah, and I apologize as well for hijacking the thread.

Mike