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#24255 - 10/15/03 04:44 AM 950/7100 too bright for sub/sats?
Infosponge Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 10/14/03
Posts: 3
I just bought the Morel Applause 5.1 speaker system. It's got 5 small sphere's like the Gallo Micro's (only better). The sphere's have a 4" woofer and outboard tweeter. They can handle 120W at 8 Ohms and 85 dB sensitivity.

My room is very reflective. It's all glass/wood/stone/drywall. My only option was a sub/sat system due to various constraints.

Since I'm dealing with small sats and a highly reflective room, the laws of physics are working against me. Would the 950/7100 combo be too bright and harsh for this situation? Or should I be looking at warmer electronics? Something like; the Rotel RSX-1055; the NAD T762; the Marantz SR-7300; or the Harmon Kardon AVR-8000?

Any input or advice would be appreciated.

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#24256 - 10/15/03 02:18 PM Re: 950/7100 too bright for sub/sats?
foamx Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 08/27/03
Posts: 3
Infosponge,

The only real way to tell is to audition the 950/7100 in your space. I am returnng a 950/755 combo for that very reason. I have Revel F30 mains and a Revel C30 center channel and the Outlaw gear was too revealing for my tastes. I am now auditioning a Marantz 9300 in it's place. The Marantz does not have that juice to really open up the Revels like the 755 did but the sound is much warmer and musical to my ear.

The guys at outlaw are great about the in home audition and 30 day return policy. I've not dealt with a better bunch. I really wish I'd liked the sound better but what can ya do?

Good Luck,

Lawrence

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#24257 - 10/15/03 10:57 PM Re: 950/7100 too bright for sub/sats?
Infosponge Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 10/14/03
Posts: 3
Thanks deputy. Maybe thats the route I should take. Just try them out and send them back if it doesn't work out.

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#24258 - 10/17/03 03:55 PM Re: 950/7100 too bright for sub/sats?
Will Offline
Desperado

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 605
Loc: LA's The Place
Since your room is very reflective you may want to equalize the room brightness, in order for the sound to be satisfying. You might consider room treatment or electronics. Since your speakers are so small (a 4" woofer), you probably wouldn't need the power of the 7100 and could better put the money saved into room equalization, which you may need more than power. Just a thought...

Although Outlaw has a 30 day return policy on the 950/7100 combo, I think they charge for shipping if you decide to send them back.

Best,

Will

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#24259 - 10/17/03 04:52 PM Re: 950/7100 too bright for sub/sats?
Infosponge Offline
Deputy Gunslinger

Registered: 10/14/03
Posts: 3
Thanks Will.

Due to the architectural/design features of the room, acoustical treatments are out. That's why I had to choose such an inconspicous system to start with.

The room is very large (6,300 cubic feet, 15 x 20 with a 21 foot high ceiling). That's why I was worried about power. The little sats can handle 120W each.

Like you indicated, my fear is I might need an expensive equalizer. But with a limited budget, the EQ money would probably have to come out of the 950/7100 budget. If I had to go with an EQ, to pay for it I would have to give up the 950/7100 and go with a $600 to $900 receiver.

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#24260 - 10/17/03 05:04 PM Re: 950/7100 too bright for sub/sats?
Will Offline
Desperado

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 605
Loc: LA's The Place
You'll probably want plenty of equalization.

At what frequency are you planning to cross over the little 4" (in the woofer) speakers, to your subwoofer? If the frequency is high enough, you probably won't need the power of a separate amplifier, if you are concerned about having enough power to power your speakers. I'd spend the money on equalization for your room, instead.

Best,

Will


[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 17, 2003).]

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#24261 - 10/18/03 04:40 AM Re: 950/7100 too bright for sub/sats?
Kevin C Brown Offline
Desperado

Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 1054
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
Not ever having heard a "bright" system (and yet having had Yamaha and Outlaw components in my system that *other* people say are "bright" ...)

I would *think* that the largeness of the room would offset the "brightness" somewhat. I.e., sound level drops off as a function of the square of the distance so that a bigger room would have less of a problem with brightness than a smaller room...


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited October 18, 2003).]
_________________________
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ... New and Improved !!


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#24262 - 10/18/03 05:30 AM Re: 950/7100 too bright for sub/sats?
Will Offline
Desperado

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 605
Loc: LA's The Place
InfoSponge says his room is very reflective. Of course this means some frequencies are reflected back, and other frequencies aren't as much. If he were to play music softly enough that the sound didn't bounce off the walls, maybe he wouldn't have to worry about equalizing the sound. But I imagine in his 15 x 20 with a 21 foot highly reflective listening room, they'll be plenty of sound bouncing about, in some of the higher frequencies. While equalization alone can't solve all the problems caused by bouncing high frequencies sound waves, it should tame those frequencies somewhat in his listening room. A better approach would be to treat the room itself, but for aesthetic reasons, Infosponge said earlier that "acoustical treatments are out."

Best,

Will

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#24263 - 10/18/03 03:54 PM Re: 950/7100 too bright for sub/sats?
bestbang4thebuck Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 668
Loc: Maryland
OK, what you really want to do (not) is to put a black box between the 950 and the 7100. What this black box will do is sample signals from each channel, and with the appropriate adjustable delay on each channel to account for sound travel from one wall to the other, insert an inverted, low level signal in the opposing speakers' channels such that the reflected sound will be accompanied by a matching negative image of itself as it travels toward the listener, effectively canceling out all horizontally reflected sound.

Is there a 'smiley' that indicates "tongue-in-cheek?"

Don't laugh too hard. There is some high-dollar equipment out there that uses a similar sound canceling practice for other reasons.

This must be an interesting situation, to have absolutely "no way" to do any acoustical treatment whatsoever. I wish you the best.



[This message has been edited by bestbang4thebuck (edited October 18, 2003).]

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#24264 - 10/18/03 05:10 PM Re: 950/7100 too bright for sub/sats?
Kevin C Brown Offline
Desperado

Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 1054
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
That is exactly my point. Because the room is so big, and sound waves do not propegate for infinite distances, a larger room is "better" for "brightness" than a smaller room. And in fact, higher freqs die off sooner than low anyway. (Why the new high power sonar the Navy uses is at low freq. Effective for longer distances in the ocean. Not so good for whales though. )
_________________________
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ... New and Improved !!


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#24265 - 10/18/03 07:00 PM Re: 950/7100 too bright for sub/sats?
Will Offline
Desperado

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 605
Loc: LA's The Place
Don't know about yodelling in the alps, or about using sonar in the ocean, but Infosponge's 15 x 20 foot room with the high ceilings isn't that big by home theater standards. Some people have much bigger rooms. He says his is highly reflective. Chances are, some of his 5.1 speakers are near surfaces that are highly reflective of certain frequencies.

Best,

Will

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#24266 - 10/20/03 09:56 AM Re: 950/7100 too bright for sub/sats?
Jeff Mackwood Offline
Desperado

Registered: 12/19/02
Posts: 427
Folks,

While I understand that a large part of this thread is intended to be sarcastically humourous (it is right?), there is a more serious side to it.

The fact is that no company can absorb the losses from frivolous returns. Not even Outlaw. Those costs get passed on in the form of higher average prices.

While permitted, returning a set of perfectly functional electronics because they are too "bright" for a reflective room, is really pushing the Outlaw 30 day return policy to its limit.

Next thing you know the return will be accompanied by a lawsuit claiming egregious pain and suffering, or detruction of listening experience!

Regards.

Jeff Mackwood
_________________________
Jeff Mackwood

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#24267 - 10/20/03 04:16 PM Re: 950/7100 too bright for sub/sats?
Will Offline
Desperado

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 605
Loc: LA's The Place
Hi Jeff,

The Outlaw business plan avoids having to have demonstrator models in stores across the country (like many of their competitors do) and to instead, encourage hesitant potential customers to try a model in their own home at the Outlaw's risk. If the potential buyer doesn't like the model, the buyer can return it to Outlaw, no questions asked, during the home trial period. This business plan may weed out most frivilous returns because buyers who return a model are charged for shipping the model back. Also, hooking a pre/pro or a 7 channel amp in your home usually is not trivial. I'd imagine most who try an Outlaw product, are serious about it, because they are doing considerable work just to integrate it into their home theater setup.

The Outlaw business plan, of no demonstrators in brick stores but to encourage people who are hesitant to buy, by a no-questions-asked return policy, is less costly I bet, despite a few frivilous returns. In general, prospective buyers who want to listen before buying can do so, in someone else's home, by just asking online if there's anybody in their city willing to demonstrate their Outlaw -- chances are, somebody with an Outlaw model in their home will invite the prospective buyer into their home, for a listen!

The bottom line of the Outlaw business plan is it allows Outlaw to charge less than anybody else for a new pre/pro with DPL II.

Outlaw is probably selling 950's like hotcakes and probably is doing pretty well financially thanks in part, to their no questions asked return policy, despite the risk of some frivilous returns. No business plan is risk free, afterall!

I agree with you that people should not get an Outlaw if there's a large chance of returning it. But I think most people who buy are serious, since they'll pay the return shipment, and because having to connect and then disconnect the heart of a home theater can be a pain.

Best,

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 20, 2003).]

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#24268 - 10/24/03 11:29 AM Re: 950/7100 too bright for sub/sats?
srfdude Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/05/02
Posts: 48
Loc: Oceanside, CA
Since the 950-7100 combo or any other similar has a freq. response of 20-20K +/- a fraction of a dB, I wonder why you think that simply changing the electronics is going to reduce room effects? I have had all sorts of gear in my setup over the years, and I can say that in my experience there will be no significant difference. That is unless you clip the amp, also some processing can differ. Otherwise, I defy anyone to simply change the electronics on a 2-ch. setup and immediately tell the difference. OK, bottleheads need not apply
Mike

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#24269 - 10/24/03 12:59 PM Re: 950/7100 too bright for sub/sats?
michaelstano Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 11/22/02
Posts: 75
Loc: Stillwater, OK USA
I'm using Klipsch speakers, the 950, and 3 Parasound amps in a 20 x 20 x 25 room, open on two sides, with 2 walls of windows and quarry tile floors. My room is definitely "bright." Maybe I don't hear the deficiencies of my system, but I think it sounds great. I think adjustments on the 950 plus a great sub (an SVS PB2-ISD now, a Klipsch SW-10 before it), toned down any harshness.

If (IF) the 950/7100 is too bright, what about keeping the great 950 in the mix and going with a "warmer" amp?
_________________________
Michael Stano

Outlaw 950
Parasound HCA 1000Ax3
Klipsch KG 3.2s frt & rr
Klipsch KV 3 ctr
Klipsch KV 2 surr ctr
SVS PB2
Sony CDP-CX355 CD
MonsterPower HTS2500MkII
Mitsubishi DD 8020 DVD
Mitsubishi 46" 16:9 TV

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