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#23707 - 02/02/07 01:33 AM Re: Toslink Quality
sluggo Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 361
Loc: Plano, TX
Digital Jitter is not caused by the physical properties of the cable (i.e., glass vs plastic). If the quality of the cable were to affect the signal at all, it would be an all-or-nothing issue - the signal either is there or it's not, basically a data error. This would manifest itself inaudibly as dropouts in sound. Digital jitter in S/PDIF would manifest itself audibly in the music.

The jitter introduced by the S/PDIF connection is a result of the signal itself, which is produced by a combination of the source signal and the signal introduced by the S/PDIF hardware at the source end.

In other words, an expensive ST-type glass toslink cable wouldn't solve jitter issues.
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--Greg

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#23708 - 02/02/07 11:21 AM Re: Toslink Quality
Videodrome Offline
Desperado

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 325
Loc: Fairfax Station, VA
That seems to be at odds with a lot of technical analysis on the subject. The interface between the transport and the DAC is one chain in which jitter can be induced -- whether that interface is toslink or coax. Hence the terms "cable-induced" or "line-induced jitter" that have become part of the digital audio lexicon.

One resource I came across that seems to be devoted to this topic is: http://www.jitter.de/english/what.html

A more lengthy white paper entitled "Towards Common Specifications for Digitial Audio Interface Jitter" is also available as a PDF on that site: http://www.jitter.de/pdfextern/towards.pdf

Not exactly my type of reading mind you, but may be useful for tech-heads out there.
_________________________
Outlaw 970
McCormack DNA-125 (mains), Emotiva LPA-1 (surrounds)
Quad 11L (F&C) Wharfedale (R) LFM1 (Sub) w/ SMS-1
Squeezebox -> Behringer SRC2496 -> Musiland MD10 DAC
Sota Sapphire; Marantz 10B;
Video: Hitachi 42HDS52A; Oppo 971H
System Pics

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#23709 - 02/02/07 12:08 PM Re: Toslink Quality
Videodrome Offline
Desperado

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 325
Loc: Fairfax Station, VA
One more thing, just based on the empirical evidence that is out there, if the type and quality of the interface were unimportant, why do Wadia, Theta, Audio Note and other high-end DAC makers consider it in their designs? For example, Wadia and Audionote devote most of their digital inputs to either glass toslink or coax. I would have to assume that the guys who are at the cutting edge of digital music reproduction would not place much emphasis on the interface if it did not have an impact on performance.
_________________________
Outlaw 970
McCormack DNA-125 (mains), Emotiva LPA-1 (surrounds)
Quad 11L (F&C) Wharfedale (R) LFM1 (Sub) w/ SMS-1
Squeezebox -> Behringer SRC2496 -> Musiland MD10 DAC
Sota Sapphire; Marantz 10B;
Video: Hitachi 42HDS52A; Oppo 971H
System Pics

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#23710 - 02/03/07 02:13 AM Re: Toslink Quality
sluggo Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 361
Loc: Plano, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by Videodrome:
That seems to be at odds with a lot of technical analysis on the subject. The interface between the transport and the DAC is one chain in which jitter can be induced -- whether that interface is toslink or coax. Hence the terms "cable-induced" or "line-induced jitter" that have become part of the digital audio lexicon.
We're actually in agreement, in fact the link you gave has the following:

Quote:
Interface jitter is then further divided into "transmitter jitter" (fe. the jitter that comes out of our CD transport / -player) and "line induced jitter".

The latter comes into action, if we connect the digital output of our CD-player to an external DA-converter. This is a transmission of a digital signal and it will add jitter to our signal whether we use a coaxial cable TOSLINK or SToptical interfaces.
It's important to note that S/PDIF/Toslink, transmit the same signal, which incorporates the jitter-inducing added clock signal. ST transmits a different signal. You'll note from Wadia's site that their glass inputs are ST inputs, while their Toslink are plastic. IIRC glass is part of the ST spec (to accommodate wider bandwidth), so using the interface requires it.

I'm not trying to argue here, just noting there is a difference between the signal interface (or transmission format) and the physical interface when referring to jitter. This can cause a lot of confusion when laypersons like me get involved, and semantics can keep my point from being clear. I hope I have been able to clarify a little bit better.

Kind of goes past my pay grade after that. I'll raise a beer to the subject on Sunday and drink to all of our digital interfaces being error free smile
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--Greg

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#23711 - 02/06/07 01:44 PM Re: Toslink Quality
Videodrome Offline
Desperado

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 325
Loc: Fairfax Station, VA
No argument inferred. I have enjoyed the discussion. Thanks for taking the time to read through all that stuff and wade through the techno-speak.

I may still try an A/B comparison between the cables I mentioned earlier. For starters, I'm updating cables anyway; and second, this thread has piqued my interest!
_________________________
Outlaw 970
McCormack DNA-125 (mains), Emotiva LPA-1 (surrounds)
Quad 11L (F&C) Wharfedale (R) LFM1 (Sub) w/ SMS-1
Squeezebox -> Behringer SRC2496 -> Musiland MD10 DAC
Sota Sapphire; Marantz 10B;
Video: Hitachi 42HDS52A; Oppo 971H
System Pics

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#23712 - 02/06/07 01:54 PM Re: Toslink Quality
AARONMADLER Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 169
Loc: Needham, MA
Jim, I love your setup. Your photos actually inspired me to get my HT going in my basement. I have the Salamander triple. Now I have to consider the paint (everything is white) and couch and reclining chairs. What is the name and manufacturer of both the tan and brown wall color in your room? I think it looks fantastic.
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Outlaw 990/7700, Oppo DV-981HD, Gallo S.A.Amp, Nucleus Ref. 3.1, AV C, AV M, TR-2, Paradigm Atom, Pioneer PDP-4214HD, Mtrola DCT6200/2005

Outlaw 990, Aragon 8008X3, 8008, Denon 3930CI, Dahlquist DQ20, Outlaw LFM-1+, Paradigm Atom, Mtrola DCT3416 I

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#23713 - 02/06/07 04:26 PM Re: Toslink Quality
Videodrome Offline
Desperado

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 325
Loc: Fairfax Station, VA
Thanks for the kind words, Aaron. If I remember correctly, the tan is a Behr color that I had color matched to Benjamin Moore. It is in their matte finish, which is bascially a flat formulated for stain resistance and easier clean up than traditional flat.

The dark brown is a paint line called C2 that was carried by my Benjamin Moore dealer. The color is osso bucco. Finish is eggshell. At the risk of sounding like HGTV, C2 uses more colorants than other manufacurers, so you'll notice they have colors that are much deeper and richer than their competitors.

Both paints were latex.
_________________________
Outlaw 970
McCormack DNA-125 (mains), Emotiva LPA-1 (surrounds)
Quad 11L (F&C) Wharfedale (R) LFM1 (Sub) w/ SMS-1
Squeezebox -> Behringer SRC2496 -> Musiland MD10 DAC
Sota Sapphire; Marantz 10B;
Video: Hitachi 42HDS52A; Oppo 971H
System Pics

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#23714 - 02/06/07 04:28 PM Re: Toslink Quality
Videodrome Offline
Desperado

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 325
Loc: Fairfax Station, VA
Oops. Forgot, to mention the Behr color was "Classic Taupe."
_________________________
Outlaw 970
McCormack DNA-125 (mains), Emotiva LPA-1 (surrounds)
Quad 11L (F&C) Wharfedale (R) LFM1 (Sub) w/ SMS-1
Squeezebox -> Behringer SRC2496 -> Musiland MD10 DAC
Sota Sapphire; Marantz 10B;
Video: Hitachi 42HDS52A; Oppo 971H
System Pics

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#23715 - 02/06/07 05:06 PM Re: Toslink Quality
AARONMADLER Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 169
Loc: Needham, MA
Videodrome,

Thanks for your response. The dark brown color sounds delicious. I love braised veal shanks. Now I'm worried that if I paint with that color, I will be perpetually hungry. Thanks as well for the color for the walls.

Aaron
_________________________
Outlaw 990/7700, Oppo DV-981HD, Gallo S.A.Amp, Nucleus Ref. 3.1, AV C, AV M, TR-2, Paradigm Atom, Pioneer PDP-4214HD, Mtrola DCT6200/2005

Outlaw 990, Aragon 8008X3, 8008, Denon 3930CI, Dahlquist DQ20, Outlaw LFM-1+, Paradigm Atom, Mtrola DCT3416 I

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#23716 - 08/26/07 09:11 AM Re: Toslink Quality
Lizard King Offline
Desperado

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 425
Loc: NY
I use the Outlaw PDO with my Ps2 and love it!
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Outlaw 1070, Anthem MCA5 II amp.
Sony Ps3
Alon 2 Mk2 Loudspeakers
HSU VTF-2 Mk2 sub x2
VAC PA100/100 Tube Amp
ARC SP16-L tube Preamp
Audio Note Dac 2.1 "B" signature
Furutech E-TP80,
Ascend HTM-200, 340C
Sony KDS-55A2020

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