I am using the ICBM with the Pioneer DV-45A. When listening to DVD-A/SACD through the ICBM, I have to change the phase switch on my subs to "180 degrees out" to get the proper bass output. When bypassing the ICBM and listening to CD's or DTS music (utilizing the bass management in the Denon 4802)I have to again, flip the phase switch on the subs. Has anyone run into this problem? I have confirmed that the phase is definitely 180 Deg. out between the ICBM and the Denon 4802. I definitely want to keep the ICBM and am wondering if I could build a cable with reverse polarity and use it in the "sub-out" position from the ICBM to the analog sub input on the Denon? Would not this be the same as flipping the phase switch on the subs? Trying to come up with a fix that would keep me from having to change the phase on the subs when I engage the ICBM. Any ideas???

Mike Sloan

Nobody out there that has recognised this problem? This is akin to the phase shift problem encounterd on the 950 between the digital and 5.1 analog outputs. Now it shows it's ugly head with the ICBM....nobody?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike Sloan:
Nobody out there that has recognised this problem? This is akin to the phase shift problem encounterd on the 950 between the digital and 5.1 analog outputs. Now it shows it's ugly head with the ICBM....nobody?[/QUOTE_______________________________

mike:

i'm curious to know what high pass settings you are using for:
a. the ICBM
b. the digital BM on your receiver

also, what settings did you select in the dv 45a as to speakers size?



[This message has been edited by bossobass (edited February 18, 2003).]

bossobass:

I have all settings on ICBM at 80Hz and recombine switch off.

The digital BM on Denon AVR4802 is all speakers small(80Hz)/sub on(80Hz and below.)

DV-45A has all speakers Large and sub on. This way the DVD player sends full range to ICBM and LFE on sub output....pretty standard setup.

[QUOTE]


[This message has been edited by bossobass (edited February 19, 2003).]

I have checked the phase with the ICBM out of the system and I do not see the phase shift. When I put the ICBM between the DVD-A and receiver the Shift is there. I also have delay settings in the DV45A for speaker distance/delay...but it is only applicable for DVD-A and DD/DTS...not SACD. John Kotches wrote a great review(http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_4/outlaw-audio-icbm-bass-management-11-2001.html) on the ICBM and he specifically tested for the phase shift. He said he did not observe it. Perhaps I have a defective unit. One side note of interest...I have written Outlaw 3 Emails and left a phone message with "no" response! I wonder what that means? A little bit of a shock when I have become accustomed to the level of customer service of "internet-only companies" like SVS! I also find it perplexing that this phase shift problem has been heavily documented in "early" models of the 950! Don't get me wrong, I love the ICBM and find it really cool that Outlaw stepped up to the plate and provided a much needed piece of equipment....I just need to resolve this phase shift phenomenon and I will be 1000% satisfied!

do you get the same phase shift with dvd-a and sacd?

if so, that would be a hard one to figure.

I haven't checked phase shift with SACD...The Chesky Ultimate DVD has phase tones for DVD-A and Dolby Digital. From listening tests I still think I am experiencing some cancellations with SACD. The overall problem is subtle and I may just live with it...but I do need to touch base with Outlaw and let them have a stab at this.

bossobass,
Which DVD-A player do you have and have you not noticed this phase problem with the ICBM. Also, how have individuals dealt with the Phase shift encountered with the 950. Did Outlaw fix that on more recent generations?

mike

i have a sacd player...no dvd-a. since the 950 has on board BM (fixed 80hz HP and 120hz LP), no need for the icbm. i've installed the icbm with the 1050 receiver for clients, though, and it worked nicely to place the sub equidistant from the listening position with the front left and right speakers.

i did see the phase shift that kevin c brown thoroughly discussed here a while back.

as i said above, i believe it's caused by the redirected bass signal losing digital delay settings when switching from digital to analog 6 channel bypass. now, if your player has digital delay that is set once for digital and dvd-a both, and you still get the shift, i am at a loss as to how it can be so. i think it would have to be the digital filters vs analog crossover. and i think it would be different for every system setup out there.

as to the fix being that you have to switch back and forth...it's a drag. i've devised a completely new bass management system that fixes the problem. i just can't publicly detail it yet.

a phase reverse switch is simply not enough option to fix phase anomolies from 6, 7, 8, 9, or more speakers in one system. i am sure it's not a 180 degree difference in every system. it may seem subtle to you because you only have the reverse option (and it's on your sub, no less...probably on the BACK of the sub).

the icbm is still the best existing price/quality analog BM device on earth today. i've read the manual and tested it in the field. it's very clean and very accurate.
it's only drawback is that it's based on the current state of BM technology...which just don't work. but, that isn't outlaw's fault.

if you find anything solid in talking to the outlaws...please do post it here.

One other thought regarding this phase shift. Could it have anything to do with the fact that most receivers/ processors use a 24db slope on the woofer while the ICBM uses a 12 db slope?