No offense Jed, but it almost seemed like you were calling out the entire forum yourself. I bet that's what irritated bob. I said "almost" because I didn't fully believe that was what you were doing, or wanted to do. Which is why I said things the way I did. To give you a chance to possibly explain yourself if you felt it necessary.

This is getting strange, but how did I call out the forum?

Maybe this would help the situation. bob all the sudden seemed to make a dramatic change in the way he responded. Now ask why would he do that?

[This message has been edited by JT Clark (edited May 18, 2004).]

I take it you are asking Bob?

I just don't see how giving my opinion can be seen as calling out anybody, whether it be you, Bob or the entire forum. If you don't like my opinion, that's fine but for someone to try to paint me as an idiot by putting words in my mouth just because they disagree is wrong. I'll just drop the issue. I think what I said was stated clearly enough. If some people were upset by it I apologize but please keep in mind that I myself own Outlaw and have been a supporter of theirs for years, I just thought I could be candid about how I felt.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited May 18, 2004).]

I think this is a forum where many a philosophy can be shared. This can be done in a friendly way, even with people who hold to a different way of thinking and a different way of doing things. I feel I can question others here, regardless of whether I agree at the time or not, without accusation but rather in earnest.

I agree in theory regarding software upgrade and/or module upgrade. Often the trouble comes in that new software or a new module will have to conform to perhaps an older system. In order to accommodate future changes, the platform for those changes must be built into the product now = more cost now. If generally new software relies on a new chipset or architecture, then either it will not be available for an ‘old box’ at all or it will require that the code be specifically developed for the ‘old box,’ because it is not needed for any of the ‘new boxes,’ which will then loose economy of scale and hence = more cost later. Of course this is not based in any specifically verifiable scenario, but I suppose I’ve taken the route of buying an $800 box now with the idea that I might buy another whole box later rather than buying a $1400 box now that I can upgrade for $200 later.

Oh, look … Outlaw will have new product information in just a two or three weeks! Some GREAT deals on systems for newcomers and recent newcomers.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by curegeorg:
[B]if you cannot seriously look at the differences between a receiver and a pre/pro and make decisions on to what is more important to you, then you shouldnt be buying anything at all. i, for one, read avs sometimes, but i dont really care for its setup. plus WAY too many idiots. coincidentally enough i just got the denon avr-3805 and use it as a pre/pro for my main theatre and use its multiroom outs for others.... i personally really like the idea of having my processing seperated from my power completely, but i couldnt find any pre/pro that i felt had qualities that outweighed the 3805s. not in its price range at least.

Curegeorg,
This may be a little off-topic, but if you don't mind my asking, how much did you pay for your 3805 and where did you get it? I am mulling over several different purchases and paths, including the 950/7100 combo vs. receiver (with the 3805 on my short list). How do you like it? Have you used the auto-calibration feature?

Thanks!
Sammy73

audio was integrated into my new motherboard, and my videocard is still fine for that i do. (new cost didnt outweigh benefit). exactly my point in upgrading audio, some parts useful, some not. i still had to get new stuff, just not ENTIRELY new stuff. upgradeability is not an end all, because the way it is implement now sucks. modular manufacturing could change that, the reason why audio companies don't do it, is COST. they are scared to lose control of their over inflated price structure.

I live in North Carolina and got if from a local authorized denon dealer, who beat the price of a FRIEND (former coworker) of mine at NowAudioVideo. they are the only two places around that sell denon. PLUS the local guy had the 3805 in stock, the mic in stock, and the dvd910 (got it at same time), which Now had none of and couldnt even get a 910 at all.
i paid less for the 3805, 910, and mic than it would have cost to buy the 3805 alone at retail. i could have worked a better deal, but the dealer came across as a genuine guy so i didnt want to take advantage of that just to save a few bucks. a good deal is a good deal; id rather make a good connection than be a jerk and save a few bucks. the guy was going to loan me a mic instead of me buying one, but i wont be in this area forever, so i decided to get it. plus i could always sell it online since they were in high demand at the time i got my 3805.
as far as liking it, yes i do like it very much. if i hadnt been working like a dog, i could evaluate it more critically and post some observations. i have not had a chance to use the auto-eq either (same reason as above, and we have a commercial cooler in the bar beside my theatre that is noisy, so i have to pull it (500lbs plus) out to cut it off, which i dont look forward to), and i want to a/b compare my current speaker wire vs my speaker wire that i am making using the auto-eq and evaluating any changes it makes with either wire. i have yet to make the wire, so i will be doing it all in one day, that way i dont have to move that damn cooler twice, and when i do i can post about my wire and my receiver.
i use the 3805 as a pre/pro for my theatre, using power amps for amplification there rather than the 3805s, and use it for multirooms. i did try it out using its own amps and they sounded fine for the brief time i used them. id be crazy to store my amps just to use the denon though, so im gonna continue using them.
the remote is pretty easy to use (not yet condensed all down to it, but it works the dvd player perfectly (denon dvd910)), and intuitively designed.
the pure direct mode is impressive for audio (defeats other circuitry and gangs up 4 more dacs on the fronts for a total of 8 dacs on the fronts); i was pleasantly surprised by it.
well let me know if you live near north carolina, and i can give you the guys email. it is just one guy, but surprisingly he is pretty available. his shop is more of a make an appointment style, as he is out on installs a lot.
honestly i was impressed with the guy a lot, he knew what he was talking about, he didnt bullshit, and he didnt pressure me into getting anything other than what i wanted. oh and he gave me a good price, which was key.

Good for you Jed, ill give you an oar so you can help paddle the boat we're both in.

I share your concerns about the true value of some features included in the latest and greatest A/V gear. When effective and well-developed audio technologies such as parametric EQ are included in a receiver, it is worth taking a look.

The Denon AVR 3805 promotes it's 8 band PEQ as part of it's Auto Setup/Room EQ function (see below). The detail specs describe frequency centers, which are not adjustable, and that each set frequency is one octave apart. I don't see anything in the specs that indicate an adjustable Q value (boost/cut bandwidth), so my guess is that is not part of Denon's PEQ feature set. If so, this is really nothing more than an 8 band graphic equalizer, and of little or no value in room correction. In fact, this feature would likely do more harm than good when used for Room EQ. And it cannot be used to remedy bass response issues (room/speaker interaction) which is one of the principal uses of PEQ's. Fortunately, according to Denon, it can be disabled in favor of "traditional equalization methods".

A watered down version of EQ that is so far from what most would expect from something described as a "parametric equalizer" is something to be leery of. This is the sort of "feature marketing scheme" that the Outlaws wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole. The "spin" machine keeps going round and round.

The Denon Description of AVR3805
Auto Setup/Room EQ: The receiver is equipped with an Auto Setup and Room Equalization function, to achieve the most ideal sound field for your room. With the optional DM-S305 microphone (item # 033DMS305) placed at the listening position, the 32-point DSP automatically and accurately analyzes, adjusts and sets the speaker configurations of your system. The receiver also analyzes and adjusts the frequency response of the speakers to the room with an 8-band parametric equalizer. You can also manually adjust the 8-band equalizer from -6dB to +6dB in 0.5dB steps at 63Hz, 125Hz, 250Hz, 500Hz, 1kHz, 2kHz, 4kHz and 8kHz.