Next Gen 990 suggestions

Suggestions for product upgrades:
-full video upconversion from any analog source to DVI
-XM or Sirrus sattelite radio tuner
-THX Ultra certification
-Parametric EQ or automatic room EQ
-Switched AC outlets
-Bluetooth interface for PC connectivity

It is a fantastic looking and sounding product and I intend to own one as soon as the pocketbook allows. But a few additional tweaks and the 999 is born!

HDTV Terrestrial Tuning
HD Radio Tuning

Things that would detract from a next gen 990 for me:
-full video upconversion from any analog source to DVI
-THX Ultra certification
-HDTV Terrestrial Tuning

I have never ran video through a receiver or Pre/Pro and would really like to see all those connectors go away. It is time for analog to go away. Now if it had digital video (HDMI) only I might be able to live with it.
THX is pretty meaningless these days I'd much rather save the cost.
I'd leave the tuner to an external box or the display.

I know I'm in the minority but I really don't want video in my Pre/Pro especially analog. I would like to see the Pre/Pro focus on audio and leave the video to something else. There must be others who can't stand OSDs. One thing I like about the 950 is you can set it up from the front panel.

My main requirement will be an HDMI interface that has a pathway for Hi-Rez digital audio to the DSP. In the mean time I'll take Firewire.

I could care less about a radio (don't listen to it anyway), or THX (It's nothin but an overpriced sticker) and I really don't care for DVI but it is better than component but, can I please have more than 2 digital inputs?

Come on, after watching DVD, Digital TV (SDTV) and HDTV and soon to come HD DVD and/or Blu-Ray, how many people still use the VCR let alone 4 of them. There are 4 different S Video inputs on the back of the model 990. COME ON!!!!

I WANT MY HDTV-BLURAY-PS3-PC ALL DIGITAL!!!!!!

IT should also do my laundry and walk the dog...

My opinion is that all the original suggestions (except maybe the first) are a waste of time and wouldn't make the unit any more attractive to most buyers. But, of course, I could be wrong.

Cheers,

WALKED? Are you kidding?

I want to be carried and then gently placed on the ground!

if you don't get some excercise,you might get carried off to pasture just what king of dog are you iggy? the only 'dog' i know of that wants to be carried is a chihuahu.

Painttload:

HEY! Don't confuse me with them little "rat dogs". I am certainlly not at all like those alledged dogs you see with the likes of Paris Hilton.

I guess you could call me a "junkyard dog", or perhaps something more along the lines of a good, old fashioned mutt, though that means only that I benefit from a variety of great gene pools.

Hmmm. I guess you are right. Maybe some exercise on a doggie treadmill or about 20 minutes or so chasing the pure-breds at the off-leash park might be nice. I take back the "carry me" thing, though getting from here to there in a limo might be nice.

OK, and if she snuggles me, I guess I might consent to getting carried by Paris, but I doubt that is in the cards.

What a coincidence: We're both at significant round numbers in the post counter. Congrats on half a K of posts.

but,i walked to the bar,got a BIG hug ,and i'm still cool walkin'

and i get the 'post counter' just took a minute

I do not own the unit but what about:

1)Channel level adjustments at .5 dB instead of 1 dB.

2)At least one more component video in and out

3)HDMI with audio support instead of DVI

4)More precise settings for distance (than 1ft) when setting channel delay.

Please correct me if I am wrong on any of the above. These are the things that have kept me from trying the unit to replace my Yamaha RX-V2500 I am currently using as a pre/pro. That and the fact that I could not get a discount on the 990 after buying 2 of the Outlaw 755 amps because it was not within 30 days. I am also hesitant to lose the "Presence" channels the 2500 has as they add a lot to the front image and the dialog lift function really helps with the 92" screen.

There has been some discussion of changing the level adjustment and distance settings as you suggest, but since Outlaw has commented elsewhere (in response to a review of the Model 1070) that they feel that the benefits of going from 1.0dB to 0.5dB and from 1 foot to 0.5 foot are effective indistinguishable I'm guessing that it's not high on their list. Adding a fourth component input to a future processor is not likely because we're likely to see more and more hardware moving from component to HDMI. The 990's DVI switching was a way to get digital video switching without getting tied up in the uncertain status of HDMI's audio side. Odds are that a successor to the 990 (which would not be likely to appear until 2007 or 2008 based on the 950's production life) would include three or four HDMI inputs as well as probably conversion of analog video to digital so an HDMI monitor output could be used with all video inputs. For the time being, the DVI switching seems to have been a pretty effective solution.

This was actually asked about in another forum but I was teaking my system and found it would be great to have. I would like a digital out and digital in - similar to the old fashion 'processor loop' functionality. Here's how it would work:
The digital out would be after the input selection, but prior to any processing. It would remain the the stock format, PCM, Bitstream, etc.
It could then be used with external digital processors and return in the same format (or converted) to the digital in. Then the 990 would do whatever it needed in terms of processing, volume, etc.
It could be bypassed with a switch just like the old processor loops.

The necessity for this came when using my DEQ2496 to do some equalization on my mains. The DEQ has digital in/out so why not keep everything in the digital domain until the last and let the 990 do it.

Also I would like to see AES/EBU digital I/O, just because it seems a lot of pro equipment (like the DEQ) is being used in HT these days.

Wouldn't you want it to be after the DD and DTS decoders, so that whatever device you were using only had to worry about PCM format? Otherwise you'd need to have DD and DTS decoders (and maybe encoders) in the outboard device.

Yes gonk. For my use that would be perfect. I started to write that in but I would want it as an option along with the others. The problem I foresee is what the PCM signals would be. The main L/R and surround L/R's would be OK as pairs but what about the sub and center? Separate? Would they all be separate? I'm not sure but I don't believe the PCM stream can handle greater than 2 channels ata time (anyone know?) I suppose that could be a PCM pair as well but I guess it doesn't matter as long as its accessible.
I assume that other multichannel processors would be on the market, i.e. multichannel EQ and the like, so having a native DSD or Bitstream would also be nice.
But for now, multiple PCM channels after decoding would be great for me.

Each channel would be a separate PCM stream. The PCM format can support this (HDMI 1.1 and 1.2 will work with DD+ and the other future HD disc formats by decoding the source to eight channels of PCM audio). I think that PCM would really be the only way to go with this - by the time you put a separate external processor that does DD/DTS decoding as well as EQ, you may as well just drop the first unit out and use the second one for everything.

Thanks gonk. I agree but with existing 2 channel pro equipment, the PCM is done in stereo pairs. My preferrence is to account for that. That way its all backward compatible.
I found after doing some equalizing last night that the digital I/O loop would be great.

Compatability with multichannel HDMI audio.... Need something to plug the playstation 3 into!

Having just learned that VIDEDO-1 input does not feed thru to the RECORD-OUT loop, it should be included in next generation.

Perhaps the OUTLAWS could make a software upgrade.

Also another (usual)plug from me to have the 19 inch rackmount option, which should also exist for the amps.

Having just learned that VIDEDO-1 input does not feed thru to the RECORD-OUT loop, it should be included in next generation.

Perhaps the OUTLAWS could make a software upgrade.

Also another (usual)plug from me to have the 19 inch rackmount option, which should also exist for the amps.

For me, I find that video switching is at the heart of a pre/pro. Most TV's do not have great speakers in them and are used as monitors with the video channel being directed to the display and audio being directed to external speakers. I would find it difficult to have a SS system with 4 or more outputs going to an HDTV which may have only one or two HD inputs. You would be asking for another device to do the video switching anyway, why not have the audio and video being switched by the same device?

I second the request for rack mount ears option.

Ditch DVI go to HDMI (to get around the 8 bit word length of DVI)

Modularize the HDMI support so that you can change a board or chip to upgrade

Transcode everything to HDMI

Add support for SACD and DVD-Audio + the new HD formats add i.Link support (would use the same processing as HDMI based versions anyway)

Decrease the depth of the thing, it doesn't fit most cabinets and racks

Less composite and S-Video inputs. I'd rather see more multi-channel analog inputs for SACD, etc than the number of composite/S-Video inputs currently on MOST AV products including the 990. I can only think of two devices at this time - Video camera and an old VCR - what to do with all the others?

HDMI Version 1.3 (or better) A/V inputs (four or more)... must allow for all HDMI certified audio and video permutations with fully transparent digital video pass through switching.

HDMI outputs (perhaps two)

Firewire A/V inputs/outputs. Perhaps at least one of each for legacy support.

Cut down on costs and back panel real estate by having a lot fewer standard toslink and coaxial inputs because everything seems to be going HDMI. The same with DVI (just eliminate it) because you can use an adapter if need be.

Multiple 32 bit audio processing engines that allows for true 24/192 resolution manipulation (from tone control to parametric equalization, etc.) and high end upconversion of lower resoluton sources on all channels for all formats.

Apogee pro-grade master clock (or something similar in quality for less jitter and error rates across the board).

Multiple sophisticated DSP engines to handle onboard decoding of ALL permutations and resolutions/channels of (this will take A LOT of horsepower):

DTS-HD (lossy and bit-for-bit master lossless modes)

Dolby Digital TrueHD Lossless

Dolby Digital Plus

Uncompressed 24/192, 8 channel LPCM

[and if possible] true Direct Stream Digital (DSD)

DSP mode that will allow stereo back channel matrix decoding for 2 channel up to 5.1 channel material... perhaps Dolby ProLogic IIx can be applied to any and all formats when the user requires it.

8 channel decoding for all formats can be user defaulted to ON until you want to turn that feature OFF. Let's say your watching such and such a format with a stereo source and you want ProLogic IIx (8 channel decode mode with stereo matrix back surrounds), then you jump to a DTS-HD (or Dolby Digital TrueHD) track with 5.1 or 6.1 channels and want to create stereo back channel decoding using Dolby ProLogic IIx, then 8 channel decoding stays ON all the way through. Or if you're going from a stereo surround source using ProLogic IIx and then popping over to a track on Blu-Ray with 8 discrete channels... 8 channel mode stays on the whole time. This feature is like what new Denon receivers do and is easier then having to turn on 8 channel surround decoding EVERY single time you change to a different audio format that isn't flagged as such (like with your Outlaw 950, which I own). Obviously, if the data is flagged for discrete back channels anyway (such as uncompressed LPCM tracks, or Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Lossless), the processor would allow that instruction to take over. Complicated explanation, I know.

Pro-grade Wolfsen (or better) premium audio DAC's (that can handle 24/192 and greater resolutions and sampling rates) on all channels. Double DAC's for all channels, if there is a sonic advantage to running in dual-differential mode.

High end, ultra-low noise parts

Durable circuit boards

Adequate ventilation and quiet cooling (these newer formats and DSP engines require lots of decoding power, and I'm sure the chips get much hotter than before).

Software (user based) and hardware upgradeable (need enough extra data storage headroom for software and format changes and additions, with MIPS processing to spare)

Multiple, low noise power supplies

Fully balanced topography

XLR balanced outputs for all channels.

Stereo (or even surround) subwoofer outputs (XLR too)

Extra assignable audio outputs (XLR and RCA) in case mixers want to use the 8 channel discrete capabilites of Blu-Ray & HD-DVD for extra screen channels and/or height channels besides the regular 7.1 speaker layout (it could happen!).

Output for bass shakers with adjustable crossover frequencies (if possible within a certain cost outlay).

Fully adjustable delay, crossovers, and slopes for ALL channels.

32 bit, no loss quality, full range parametric equalization for all channels.

Total processing/tone bypass control.

At least one high bandwidth 5.1 or 7.1 analog input with no digital conversion (strait to volume control) and a properly working, properly phased full-analog 80 Hz crossover (switchable).

NO TUNER

NO LCD FRONT PANEL (one more thing to wear out!)

User assignable input/output names

No need for fluffy bells and whistles... just a lean, mean, high quality A/V machine that can go up against the likes of Arcam and other high end brands noted for their pristine audio quality.

And other necessary stuff...

If you can do this for $2,500 and can get good reviews I'd bite!

You're kidding, right? If $2,500 is "lean and mean", then I'm in the wrong place!

Do you REALLY think that ANYONE can do all of what you are looking for at ANY price for at least a year or so, and then only at a price that would hvae to be in excess of $3,000?

Sure, I'd love to have all of that at $2,500, too, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I think it's pretty clear that Dan's list is a "dream" wish list - after all, it includes HDMI 1.3, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD, and Dolby Digital Plus - all of which would require the HDMI 1.3 standard to actually be published.

First let me thank Outlaw for listening so closely to your customer base and really creating a different and positive experience for the audio/video community.

I would like to add some items to the list of feature for future generations of outlaw products:

I will arrange my list into two categories absolute must haves and then my wish list.

Must have features:

• Automatic speaker setup with room correction / equalization and base management (Pioneer’s Advanded MCACC with phase control / Audussey MultEQ) and base management – I have lived with this feature for a little over 3 years now. Starting with Yamaha’s YPAO, a short lived stint with Denon’s Audussey MultEQ, and now Pioneers Advanced MCACC with Phase control. I believe Outlaws base management options (individual speaker bass management controls) to be superior to the bass management features on brands listed above but I Outlaws base management was combined with room correction/EQ I would have been sold

It was for this feature set alone that I didn’t buy an Outlaw 990.

After experiencing the dramatic effects these systems have on the overall sound quality I will never go back to a system without it. These systems seem to bring out the detail, increase the focus, add depth to the sound stage and just make the sound snap into place. Especially, since theater room has to share duties as a living room. Which I would believe to be similar to many buyers of the Outlaw products.

I will note that of the three systems mentioned above Pioneer’s implementation of the room correction/EQ software is by far the best implementation I have worked with to date. It is the most detailed in its configuration, offers 6 memory settings for slightly different EQ configurations which the user can scroll through from the remote while listen to any source. The Pioneer offering allows you to copy one room correction/EQ configuration to a second memory position and then make minor manual adjustments to all aspects of the room correction/EQ functions including speaker management and bass management. This feature is great for a variety of situations. One example is where you have a CD which is overly bright, you can create an EQ configuration for those recordings. All in all I love the sound produced by the out of the box automatic configuration.

One more note on the Room EQ and Correction software. Pioneer, Denon and Yamaha do not offer the room correction / EQ or bass management on the Multi channel analog inputs, which is a disappointment. It is understood that it would require another analog to digital back to analog conversion but, I believe the benefit you gain from the room correction EQ and base management will make up for whatever perceived losses there might be. If Outlaw could offer a user selectable option for analog to digital conversion on the multi channel audio inputs where room correction/EQ and bass management can be applied that would be hugely appreciated. There should be a method were by there is no loss in sound quality because of the digital to analog to digital conversion. If Theta, Meridian and Anthem seem do it, I would think Outlaw could do it as well at a very cost effective option.

• I,link, HDMI, and either USB or Ethernet connections for digital audio support - Of these connections i.link and HDMI are he most critical. i.link, if implemented correctly offers one of the best digital audio transmission options available. A gitter free digitial audio connection which can support at least 8 channels of lossless audio. It is already certified for transmission of both DVD-Audio and SACD.

Another benefit is with both Windows Vista and the newest MAC OS’s will support transmission of lossless digital audio via i.link (basically the receiver becomes a sound card at that point). As much as so many audiophiles may want to fight it, the PC has the ability to be one of the most enjoyable audio/videophile sources in your audio rack. Lossless audio, HD Video, with tons storage and i.link providing for that perfect connection between the PC and pre/pro.

HDMI with audio support is a given requirement. HDMI seems to be the digital AV connection of choice for the consumer electronics industry. Now with that said HDMI 1.2 support is a must as the format is already settled.

Also greatly desired is switching for at least 4 HDMI devices (4 in 1 out). Up/down conversion/transcoding from analog to HDMI is also a must. Please make sure the HDMI connections are full HDCP compliant.

It is the lack of the above features which keep me from buying the Outlaw 990 witch I would gladly upgrade to.

Wish List:

• Pro/Pro built on a card based, user configurable architecture -

Integra Research with its card based upgradable pre/pro is extremely smart and is the only truly affordable pro/pro of this design (Meridian offers this architecture in their 800 reference series designs and there are others which offer a similar platform). Now Integra Research will likely not succeed with its platform simply because it does not have the powerful distribution channel which Outlaw has. Think about it Integra has this pre/pro configurator and then when you finish configuring the pre/pro you then have to go find a dealer. With the direct to consumer business model the consumer decides what options he/she needs and when the configuration is complete they can buy immediately.

A card based platform of this type offers both the consumer and Outlaw many benefits. I will address the high level benefits of both the consumer then Outlaw (you would like a more detailed list please feel free to contact me directly:

Consumer:
o The consumer can choose the features which her or she really needs or wants - I have notice many post not only here but also in many other audio forms where consumers have desperately wanted to option to include or exclude certain features from the pre/pro, a card based/modular architecture would support this desire.
o As new connection options (HDMI specs, Fireware, USB audio, no telling what my be next) become available the user can upgrade to the items they need by the inclusion or replacement of a card instead of having to replace the entire pre/pro
o As new audio decoding/encoding specs become available (Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD, etc) the user can replace the processing module if that is not upgradable via software upgrade.
o Now one feature which would be great is if the consumer had the option of output stages, ie unbalance (most cost effective), Balanced XLR (next most cost effective, balance/unbalance but with a tube stage, and then when market adoption has reached critical mass offer a pure digitial PCM output stage for those which have adopted active speakers (similar to what Meridian is now doing).

Outlaw:
o Lower long term development cost – Once you have developed a strong stable platform/architecture your design approach becomes modular. You can develop best of bread solutions into a card which interacts with a core platform.
o Lower production cost - a good part of your production cost goes into parts which may or may not be needed by end users. For example, I have very little need for analog audio or video inputs in my pre/pro. Almost all my audio connections are digital and definitely all my video connections are over HDMI/DVI
o Outlaw can experiment with new technologies without having to do a ground up redesign of the entire product.
o Outlaw can offer a modular pricing module. Because of customer choice some customer are will to pay more for certain features over other but those extreme cost conscience people can enjoy the best their budget can afford for now and upgrade later as their budget permits

• A video scaler to the quality of either DVDO’s iScan VP30 or Silicon Optics Realta for all none HD and analog sources on the HDMI output

Oh and one last item to add to my wish list. A facial update.

Compared to the competition it's competition it looks a little neanderthalish.

Take some typing cues from Anthem, Pioneer, or if you realy wanted to get fancy Classe's delta like or Meridian's G line. I would hate that the center piece in my audio rack is the ugly duckling of all my equipment.

Just out of curiosity, what would you be willing to pay for the product you describe above?

Personally, I think the most I would ever be willing to spend on a processor would be $2500, possibly 3k. Ideally 2k would be a nice comfortable zone with me.

Calling the Integra Research RDC 7.1 affordable is kind of odd as it costs around $5500.

I do agree that its modularity is an uber cool feature though.

I also agree with Jed M. $2000-2500 is about the most I'd want to spend on a pre-pro.

As far as HDMI switching and all that, I think you'll just have to wait a few years before you see it readily available in pre-pros as the spec is still very much a moving target at the moment.

And perhaps instead of modularity, they offer two versions a 990 V2 M that doesn't have any video switching for those who just want a music pre-pro and a 990 V2 HT that has everything plus the kitchen sink for those who want a home theater pre-pro.

As far as how it looks...that's a tertiary consideration if you ask me. Most important things are how it performs and what features it has. Besides no matter how it looks there will always be someone who thinks it looks to simple or too flashy. Much more important to keep the build quality and performance high than to worry about the faceplate.

Also agree that it would a "nice to have" to be able to set up the unit completely from the front LCD panel, but not completely necessary.

In fact a lot of what people are asking for are "nice to haves" while the biggest issue is how well it works.

And at $1100, the 990 already does more than pretty much any other pre-pro out there for the price, or receiver for that matter...

I'll just have to wait for mine to arrive before making final judge on how well it delivers performance/quality wise...

Of course in the back of my mind is an 8 year old kid saying "is it here yet? is it here yet? is it here yet?" ad infinitum.

Couldn't agree more, except that the first one is also a complete non-starter. I'd like to see:

• 0.5db level trim increments.
• Per-source level adjustments
• Per source default volume levels (When I switch to DVD, set volume to X)

I'm sure I missed some. But a farking radio isn't one of 'em. That's why god invented tuners.

Quote from BloggingITGuy....
IMO ... i find it very interesting the volume of "nice to haves". To me it sends an unspoken message that Outlaw is covering the basics - sound, customer service, quality, price - really well.

$2K-2.5K (pre/pro)would be tops for me too.
Dreamin': LCD front panel/display, Bass management suite, remove all but 1-2 RCA video inputs (keep the rest).

I would be willing to pay in the $2000 to $3500 depending on options selected.

If the 990 is $1100 today I would expect all the same input/output options as is currently available on the 990, would gladly pay a $500 premium for the flexability of a card based architecture.

I am assuming no additional cost for room correction/EQ as I believe it is neccesary to stay competitive.

For HDMI switching (4 in 1 out) with analog up/cross conversion and scaling (DVDO level scaling) i would pay around $700

I would be willing to pay $500 to upgrade the current output stage with a tube output stage (preferable switchable like is found on the Cary Audio 303 series CD player).

USB DAC board (multi channel) $150 to $200

i.link board $150 to $200

To do what you're asking would require a brand new hardware design, as it is nowhere near a minor design alteration, nor a simple matter to support ongoing hardware and firmware upgrades. Considering that the 990 is based upon a standardized hardware platform from Etronics, and that its price point is due to the development costs being spread amongst multiple brands using said platform, you couldn't expect Outlaw to deliver something to that spec for any less than Onkyo does.

The card-based design is a sweet idea, and the thought of customizing and constantly updating a pre/pro is tempting. However, I'm dubious that it will become an industry norm, since it would preclude users from buying new units down the road, and to offset that sales loss the upgrades would need to be expensive, even more so because customer support needs would increase dramatically. Hence the cost of the Onkyo.

I agree with sluggo that card-based will probably never be an industry norm or even relatively common - the handful that have reached market have consistently been very expensive. (I'd guess that an Outlaw unit of this type would probably have to cost $2000 to $3000 for just the core hardware if past card-based units are any indication with individual cards costing $400 to $600 each, although those numbers are just SWAGs on my part.) Plus the logistics of stocking and supporting modular units like that is not something that consumer electronics companies are used to. It's an attractive option from the standpoint of being able to only pay for the hardware you want, but a well-designed product aimed at the standard market demands will always be less expensive to develop and sell.

While a modular solution would be a lot more expensive than the present 990, one would expect that Outlaw could do one for significantly less than the likes of Onkyo/Integra/Integra Research and Meridian.

I wouldn't be surprised if they could offer the base unit for $1500-2000 and fully stocked unit for $3000.

Gonk is right though that as long as they keep the unit to about what it costs now, it's just cheaper to replace the whole thing than it would be to buy a modular system.

Plus the big problem with modular systems as I see it, is that it requires a lot of faith on the part of the consumer that the manufacturer will continue to support the chassis with new modules and won't stop support 5 or 6 years out.

Oh and a modular system introduces a large number of moving parts to a unit that now have to be tested separately and together.

Of course, in theory it is the way to go and what I'd like to have, but it isn't without its own pitfalls.

Personally, the only real change that I think could be made to the unit as it is right now is the separation of the balanced from the unbalanced outputs so that both can be used at once. That seems to be something that more than a few people out there could use. Oh, and yeah one or two more component ins would be nice.

HDMI though? Nah, too early to worry about including that. By the time Outlaw is ready to introduce a successor to the 990, I expect that the whole HDMI thing is figured out and would hope that there isn't some new connector type on the horizon.

For right now though, I'm happy lusting after the 990 that is on its way.

Unless the modular design becomes an industry standard, they won't offer it at all. It would cost too much money to design something so complex and proprietary to be able to deliver on their own. Onkyo can do it because they have deep pockets for R&D, and they can afford it if it doesn't sell well.

You said it. Since there is no agreed-upon compatibility standard here, if you buy it from Onkyo, Outlaw, etc., and they go out of business next year, you're SOL.

sluggo, gonk and BloggingITGuy,

Interesting points by all of you.

Would like to offer some additional options

If that is the case why could Outlaw not lean on Etronics again to build a standardized modular platform which Etronics can then license. It will give each company which choose to licensing the platform the ability to differentiate with various nuances.

I guess that at $1100 the 990 could be considered disposable after a few years and as Outlaw offers updated products. It will be hard to say how much of their revenue has the potential to be canablized by a card based architecture. It will be dependant on several factors. I take a slightly altered view in that I believe a card based architecture can have two effects. Ultimately, the consumer will spend the same ammount of money in equal or less time (upgrade cycle) using the card based architecture. It is the continual up sell cycle. So in short, I think you will have some customer which will shell out $3000 to $3500 for a fully decked out unit today (dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow) and will not upgrade for another 5 years. But even with those customer you will still have the opportunity for follow on sells before that 5 year is up based on the possibility of significant technology shifts. So that customer over a 5 year period could be worth $4000 to $5000 instead of the initial $3000 to $3500. If customer can only afford $1100 now for a unit and and the unit does not afford me the flexibility to upgrade as I can afford to, I will likely live with that unit for 1.5 to 3 years. Where if i purchase a $1500 that offers me the flexability to upgrade when I can afford it, I will likely spend more in a shorter time period, because I really wanted the $3500 unit originally.

The above thoughts are what I hope to be educated speculation and really could only be validated by a study of demographics related to the current customer base.

Outlaws ditribution model is different than the normal consumer electroncs companies in the category of home audio/video. The primary distribution channel for audio/video components has historically been successful only through established retails dealers. Honestly, I think Onkyo will fail with its card based architecture not because of its design but because of its distribution model.

Outlaw on the other hand being a direct to consumer oriented busines/distribution model could benefit greatly from a card based architecture and logisitics would be relatively easy.

I would like to draw Outlaws current state with that of Dell computers in its early days (If you are interested check out a copy of Dell direct). The card based architecture also affords them the luxury to react to the market much more quickly instead of having to rebuild a unit from the ground up.

I go back to my orignal point in this thread. I believe Outlaw continues to leverage Etronics for designing the base platform which can then be lisenced to multiple brands. In short Etronics builds a bus based architecture like a PCI mother board is the PC and then the individual brands can lisence and build on top of that.

Just offering some friendly banter about the posiblities (This is wish list stuff).

Please keep in mind while we are talk about the card based archtecture as a wish list, which I am thrilled it has gotten so much interest, I would much rather the following items which I consider to be requirements to more quickly filter into next rev of the product:

Must have features:

• Automatic speaker setup with room correction / equalization and base management (Pioneer’s Advanded MCACC with phase control / Audussey MultEQ) and base management – I have lived with this feature for a little over 3 years now. Starting with Yamaha’s YPAO, a short lived stint with Denon’s Audussey MultEQ, and now Pioneers Advanced MCACC with Phase control. I believe Outlaws base management options (individual speaker bass management controls) to be superior to the bass management features on brands listed above but I Outlaws base management was combined with room correction/EQ I would have been sold

It was for this feature set alone that I didn’t buy an Outlaw 990.

After experiencing the dramatic effects these systems have on the overall sound quality I will never go back to a system without it. These systems seem to bring out the detail, increase the focus, add depth to the sound stage and just make the sound snap into place. Especially, since theater room has to share duties as a living room. Which I would believe to be similar to many buyers of the Outlaw products.

I will note that of the three systems mentioned above Pioneer’s implementation of the room correction/EQ software is by far the best implementation I have worked with to date. It is the most detailed in its configuration, offers 6 memory settings for slightly different EQ configurations which the user can scroll through from the remote while listen to any source. The Pioneer offering allows you to copy one room correction/EQ configuration to a second memory position and then make minor manual adjustments to all aspects of the room correction/EQ functions including speaker management and bass management. This feature is great for a variety of situations. One example is where you have a CD which is overly bright, you can create an EQ configuration for those recordings. All in all I love the sound produced by the out of the box automatic configuration.

One more note on the Room EQ and Correction software. Pioneer, Denon and Yamaha do not offer the room correction / EQ or bass management on the Multi channel analog inputs, which is a disappointment. It is understood that it would require another analog to digital back to analog conversion but, I believe the benefit you gain from the room correction EQ and base management will make up for whatever perceived losses there might be. If Outlaw could offer a user selectable option for analog to digital conversion on the multi channel audio inputs where room correction/EQ and bass management can be applied that would be hugely appreciated. There should be a method were by there is no loss in sound quality because of the digital to analog to digital conversion. If Theta, Meridian and Anthem seem do it, I would think Outlaw could do it as well at a very cost effective option.

• I,link, HDMI, and either USB or Ethernet connections for digital audio support - Of these connections i.link and HDMI are he most critical. i.link, if implemented correctly offers one of the best digital audio transmission options available. A gitter free digitial audio connection which can support at least 8 channels of lossless audio. It is already certified for transmission of both DVD-Audio and SACD.

Another benefit is with both Windows Vista and the newest MAC OS’s will support transmission of lossless digital audio via i.link (basically the receiver becomes a sound card at that point). As much as so many audiophiles may want to fight it, the PC has the ability to be one of the most enjoyable audio/videophile sources in your audio rack. Lossless audio, HD Video, with tons storage and i.link providing for that perfect connection between the PC and pre/pro.

HDMI with audio support is a given requirement. HDMI seems to be the digital AV connection of choice for the consumer electronics industry. Now with that said HDMI 1.2 support is a must as the format is already settled.

Also greatly desired is switching for at least 4 HDMI devices (4 in 1 out). Up/down conversion/transcoding from analog to HDMI is also a must. Please make sure the HDMI connections are full HDCP compliant.

It is the lack of the above features which keep me from buying the Outlaw 990 witch I would gladly upgrade to.

Just want to make sure these don't get lost in the conversations.

As you guys have probably read from other discussion theads. The 990 would be a no brain for many if it offered some of the above features. Especially with the already well regarded sound quality of the 990 and the fact it is a pro/pro at that price.

USB is already there. HDMI wasn't on the current product for reasons heavily discussed on these forums and on the 990 FAQ.

As for the auto EQ stuff, after unpacking the unit and manually calibrating it, I don't see that it needs it. It sounds great and I do mean that, I don't give praise lightly, as it is.

Perhaps you should buy one and try it for 3 weeks. If you still don't think it was worth it, then return it. It's what the 30 day guarantee is all about.

One thing that should probably be restated, any feature requests that would require a major hardware change won't be seen for a few years at least. The 990 is a new product and as such won't be replaced for a while.

And by the time a successor for the 990 is ready, hopefully, BlueRay and HD DVD will be out and more mature and the HDMI specs won't be a moving target as they are now.

I also hope by then, all the various equipment manufacturers will have stopped being so connector crazy. The CE industry needs to be forward thinking when designing interconnect standards and not come up with crap like they did with HDMI that 1) don't have a positive locking mechanism and 2) are superseded almost before they are even released. It's just ridiculous.

Replace the Auricap capacitors with Sonicaps and use a Sonicap Platinum for a bypass cap. The Sonicap Platinum is one of the best you can buy. Contact Danny Richie at www.gr-research.com

I don't want a modular solution. This is my home entertainment system, not a toy. I want a 990 with a few MINOR issues addressed. In fact, I bet my list could be addressed with a firmware update.

If we're talking about science fiction wishlists, well, yeah, I have one. But I'm gonna satisfy those requirements with a set of 4 outboard active crossovers and a downmixer. And 22 channels of amplification.

Honestly, I think Outlaw has done a fantastic job of filling in their lineup The 990 is a solid, affordable piece and I find it hard to imagine a place where they could go very far upmarket without getting into diminishing returns.

Marketing is something they could probably work on though - maybe they should look into catering to installers and other channels.

On that note, I suppose an upgraded 990 (not a replacement, but a new upscale model to complement the existing 990) could offer improved automation features and maybe a bit more care on the analog circuitry choices to satisfy the Arcam fans out there.

Great point, Charlie, I absolutely agree. I would eschew a modular solution simply because I want to derive enjoyment from a quality piece of equipment long-term.

Moreover, it opens a big can of worms in terms of the card lifecycles. Obviously the manufacturer won't support cards ad infinitum, just like with PCs, and the firmware updates for subsequent card upgrades will eventually be incompatible with older cards you may still have. I'd rather upgrade because I decide to, not because I have no other choice.

The idea of interchangeable cards is not new and many manufactures use them. If used correctly they could save the manufacture money and provide the end user with more configuration options that would fit their needs better. It may also be possible to do that within a reasonable cost.

The replaceable cards would be more for offering custom configuration options then upgradeability.

Rather then create a Hugh box and back pannel (See 990) that will support every connection that anyone would every need or more to the point, every connection that they wll never use, you could order the Pre/Pro with only the connections you need now. That would save HT real estate and the manufacturing costs would be off set by not having to include 18 S-video and composite connections on every Pre/Pro they sell.


See the link below of a receiver that has some removable components.

Onkyo back panel

Double Post

Yeah the Integra Research RDC-7.1, which is based on the same chassis looks pretty much the same but has the balanced pre-outs on the bottom instead of the speaker-out binding posts.

What's cool with the RDC-7.1 and the Integra DTR-10.5 (which is pretty much the same thing as the Onkyo TX-NR1000 but is customizable as opposed to getting a unit with all cards installed) is that for those who don't want a tuner section or who need more component ins or who don't want the Net-Tune functionality, can choose not to have those modules installed.

Plus you can choose not to have HDMI installed now and wait until Onkyo puts out an HDMI 1.3 version card.

Of course cost of these units is well above what a 990 costs. The NR1000 retails for about $5000, the DTR-10.5 starts at $3500 and costs about $5500 fully loaded and the RDC-7.1 costs about $5500 fully loaded as well.

You could even get a card for the clever little clocks!

Honestly, most of the stuff the 990 doesn't address well for me wouldn't be likely to EVER be addressed at any price point.

I want to actively cross over 7 channels of highs around 250hz, to 7 channels of mib-bass drivers that are active from around 40hz to 250hz. Below 40hz or so I want to downmix the bass to stereo subwoofer arrays.

I don't see ANY mass produced pre/pro enabling that any time soon.

In all honesty, the one thing the Outlaw sucks at providing to it's users is prestige. In every other way I strongly suspect it is pretty excellent. Let's face it though; most of us like to be proud of our systems and having a big name silk-screened on there is a nice thing. If money permits, I'd rather drive a Mercedes than a Volkswagon.

The 990 is almost EVERYTHING I asked the Outlaws to do when the 950 came out, and for me it is precisely what the 950 should have been and as such I'm strongly leaning toward buying one when my media room is finally ready.

I'd like to see a digital high definition audio interface, but that's not up to Outlaw. I'd like to see a few tweaks, but really those are very very minor.

I guess I should bow out, if I have nothing useful to add?

A nice LCD would be cool. Maybe go with more premium analog parts. Enhanced automation capability. The Anthem AVM-20/30 really picks up where the 990 leaves off in many ways - look at the tweaks it has. But again, I bet most of those are a firmware upgrade away from being in the 990. But I doubt anyone at Outlaw writes that firmware though - it's probably contracted out or supplied to spec by the manufacturer.

Now that I've had mine for a day ( ) - I'd like to see the preamp outs swapped location wise with the 7.1 analog inputs. This would place the outputs at the bottom of the pre and make it easy to cable to the Outlaw Power amps - which I think most people would put below the 990 on a seperate shelf. Currently - you have the 7.1s crossing with the pre outs as most dvd/sacd players are above the 990 in a rack.

I agree, inputs should be on the top and outputs on the bottom of the Pre/Pro.

That's an excellent point - the 1070/970 got this right, but the 990 (which used the P-965's layout and filled in the blanks with extra stuff) is reversed from what works best for most of us.

I'm ready to throw a whole new perspective in on this. As a computer geek and technocrat, I foresee 2006 being the year of the Media Center PC. The grand majority of people will, towards the year end, be getting them.

Think about it. Everyone is starting to get wireless to network their homes, and by year end, they will be wanting a Media Center PC. It stores all their media, from DVDs, CDs, old home movie VHS tapes, current digital video tapings and more, all in a single location that offers quick access to any media you want at any moment. Then the networking allows that media to be shared elsewhere through out the house as well.

If you really think about it, the PC offers the modularity customization for the media devices and then all that gets sent via DVI and optical cable to the pre/pro. If you wanted to really minimize, the 990 would need only two component jacks, DVI and optical into it and all the other components would be managed by the PC.

I believe it's definitely something to think about. This might be a good thing for Outlaw, in the fact that they can concentrate on sound and let the PC market handle all the changing digital standards in video/HDMI. Sure they still need to have DACs for the separate channels, but they might be able to offer the higher end DACs since they have less inputs and accompanying circuitry to worry about.

Though a tuner has been a Outlaw standard and also 2006 will see the emergence of HD Radio, if I'm not mistaken. So, you will get CD or better quality audio from the airwaves. Perhaps even SACD and DVD Audio formatted music, coming out all 5 to 7 speakers (plus the .1) Heck, the DVD Audio and SACD market could easily use some free advertising to get there sales finally going, if they haven't just given up all together.

So, I would say that Outlaw may want to consider reducing the component inputs for digital, even reduce a few analog, say the S-video and analog 5.1 channel inputs and just let the PC market handle that. It is very easy for the PCs to do the analog to digital conversion. They do it already.

If you’re not familiar with it, most of the new motherboards are equipped with digital optical audio out jacks on top of their own speaker outs with stereo mini jacks. But most importantly, it’s a good solution to the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray war. Don't worry about what one you're going to get, or what Motion Picture company supports what format. It's just a simple drive purchase for your Media PC and you can buy one of each and store it in you RAID array to be played wherever and whenever you want.

Now, sure not everybody's going to go Media PC immediately, so Outlaw may still need to offer support for the audiophiles out there that don't like change. But, I bet the majority of you Gunslingers will be looking into it and getting one in a year or two.

Now if Outlaw wants they could round a few of us technocrats up and make a side company to do custom Media Center PC's for it's clients. But that is my wishful thinking.

Thus, that gives my different perspective on what will be needed to improve the 990, even though I'm still using my 1050 with a 750 and ICBM. But I'm planning on upgrading this year as I get into the HDTV arena and get rid of my NTSC CRT rear projection Sony 52".

By the way when is the 790, 300W @ 8 ohms x 7 balanced input amp coming out?

----------------------
The only good is knowledge and
the only evil is ignorance.

The idea of a media PC appeals to me - or even better, a media server (capable of storing DVD's and uncompressed CD's) that can be accessed from networked clients around the house. I think that even with the plummetting cost of hard drives we're not quite there yet for storing complete movie libraries (whether it's a HTPC or a server somewhere else in the house), and the thin clients are still evolving for the server concept if you want to include video in the mix. It's still not quite time to start removing inputs from processors, at least component video, digital audio, or DVI/HDMI - people are going to continue to have cable or satellite, DVD, HD-DVD/Blu-ray, game consoles, and other stuff to hook up.

A PC in my media room isn't appealing at all. A networked appliance (I think they're being called "media hubs") that can go to a remote (in a closet someplace) media server and display/play content located on that server is very appealing.

I think most of those devices are based on Windows CE, but a few (the Apple for instance) are probably not. The Universal Plug and Play media sharing spec (created by Intel I think) seems to be the standard they mostly use. Server software is available for any platform one is likely to want.

I don't think a "media PC" in the form of a PC in the media room will ever catch on.

EDIT:

Although the world could use a good media hub gizmo from a non-computer company. I think Phillips actually has a reference hardware design available as well as a few products. Maybe Outlaw should think about a device based on an existing reference design like that? I'd buy a few if they were well thought out and nice looking.

First, charlie
That's the idea, that the house has a main server/computer room with its storage there but shared via network (ethernet or wireless 802.11g or better)to other rooms. So a case like this:





would easily fit in your rack. It's standard width and then all you have to do is connect it to your home network and access all your stored media from the server. Now I'm not that sure about 'media hubs'. They all seem to require a PC somewhere in the connection process, so your still getting a PC.

Now gonk,
Don't be so sure. Do you know how many companies are offering Media Center PCs? All the big boys are doing it, and you can get a Terabyte of storage for around $600 and the prices will easily be dropping by year end. Sony released a home server with 1 TB of storage in October 2004. (source) As well, most motherboards have SATA I or II in them for easily making a RAID array yourself of a Terabyte or more.

1,000 Gigabytes or storage, should easily handle most of today's needs. Sure, Blu-ray and HD-DVD will start pushing that at a max of 120 GB for HD-DVD with eight layers, and Blu-ray being 10GB more per layer, maxing at 200 GB. But the industry, though they have it already working, are not going to release four layer until 2007 and eight layer by mid 2008 or 2009.

Now, they may start releasing their higher formats earlier with HVD coming fairly soon with 3.9 TB storage capability. But anyway, movies do not need that much storage at 1080p resolution. True, HDMI cables currently won't handle the bandwidth frequency needed for 1080p with audio signal, but DVI-D can take care of the video needs of 1080p, and that's a standard out of current video cards for any PC.

Now something to note though, is that these PCs can do multiple displays, so Outlaw may want to incorporate more than one DVI video out connection, for those who would want to have their movie/TV on one screen (the big one) and their desktop on another. But as well, the user can just use the existing DVI out to go to their desktop monitor. So it's not a necessity.

Still, sure I like playing graphic intensive games at 1600x1200 (4:3) or 2100x1600 (16:9), but 1080p res, 1920x1080, is not that far away from it, so I'd like to see a computer game on my 80" front projection screen or even just surf the web that way. And, I'm guessing many others out there don't have that many different desires than me.

They require a Universal Plug and Play media server, not a PC. There are even NAS solutions out with UPnP servers embedded in them. You upload the media to the NAS, and the media hubs can find and play it.

I'll probably be building a Linux server with uShare and a few other services (Samba, OpenVPN) running on it with a 1.5 tb RAID or so.

Sounds decent but, do they offer web browsing capabilities or computer game playing?

And it's still conneted to a PC or Personal Computer. That can be a "server" or "desktop" of any OS like MAC OS X, Windows Vista or even Linux offering peer to peer services. It's not a mainframe offering TTY terminals to multiple clients.

Gonk wrote:
I think that even with the plummetting cost of hard drives we're not quite there yet for storing complete movie libraries

That is correct for movies. Perhaps OUTLAWS will consider such a unit for CD & DVD storage. Random access is great.

Movies aside, I use a hard drive recorder for archiving as well as listening to music. I can put approximately 104 hours of redbook stereo on a 200 Gb Seagate (or whatever) drive. Using 2 channels I feed them into TAPE input of 990. The length of a "song" (as the machine refers to it) is not limited to 80 minutes on a CD. So for example I could assemble the entire Beethoven Sonata library (32 sonatas) into a continuous play...or break them up...or "make projects".

It is convenient

As nfaguys points out, even relatively large music libraries stored in a lossless format can probably live pretty comfortably on a terabyte drive array. A terabyte of disc space is not all that expensive, but for the application we're considering the need for backup and redundancy is significant (who wants to re-rip an entire music library, much less a video library). That means that we need to look toward something like RAID5, which means that a terabyte of disc space won't yield a terabyte of capacity. (Depending on how many drives, you'll likely see a capacity closer to 750GB per terabyte, give or take 100GB.) That may not be a problem for music, but DVD's will often be a different matter. The size of a person's DVD library varies pretty wildly, but if we take a good-sized library of 175 to 200 titles and make a few assumptions we can get an idea of how much disc space we need. Assume the bonus discs and extra features will get left off the server and that a fair number of those titles are TV box sets with half a dozen discs each. That means you could be looking at 275 or 300 discs of movie and TV content (more if you feel the need to put extras on the server). Assume that a good number of the discs are double-layer, so that the average data requirement per disc is perhaps 6GB. We now need 1700 to 1800 gigabytes of useable disc space in our array just for the video library. If we also have a similar-size CD library encoded in FLAC (assuming perhaps 200 discs at about 50% compression, which would equate to perhaps 275MB per disc), that's an additional 55 GB - storing as raw WAV files would be a more "audiophile" route that would double the space requirements per disc. Based on this theoretical case, we end up needing the better part of 2 TB just to archive the data already on hand - with no consideration given to future growth or for space to store live TV (SD or HD) for time-shifting. Building a good, robust RAID5 array with a capacity of at least 2TB to 3TB would be key to setting up the sort of media server I'd be interested in. That's going to lead to a pretty substantial first cost - nowhere near what a Kaleidescape server would set you back, but still more than many pocketbooks would allow (including mine). I think the time will come, but for most of us I still don't think it's here yet.

No, you take one of these :




And one or more of these:

[img]http://akamai-lq.bizrate.com/resize?sq=100&uid=260803957[/img]

Or some places even sell them together:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007MGEOC/sr=8-7/qid=1142018673/ref=pd_bbs_7/103-9540948-3982255?%5Fencoding=UTF8


And no PC is required.

Transcoding to MPEG4 can reduce a typical movie to 1-2 GB with surround sound and excellent video quality. Music storage is small beans in this equation.

I plan to RAID 6 320 GB spindles for a media server - the capacity should be about 5x320 or 1.6 TB, plenty for the immediate future, and the storage cost will be about $300 for the RAID controller and $700 for the disks. Not too bad.

I need to assemble a VPN/HTTP/SMB server anyway, so the other parts costs are paid for already.

Also, for those not inclined to roll their own NAS file servers in a box can be had with a nifty web interface and RAID, etc.

As long as we're dreaming, I'd love to see a pre/pro with the option of digital outputs, S/PDIF or AES/EBU. That would be marvelous.

It wouldn't take much I bet.

Charlie,

You are correct about the MPEG4 encoding. But as to the media hub, I did not see any DVI connections, only S-video, composite and component connections. Also, can you play a computer game through it? If you look further through the manual, it is running Windows ME, 2000 or XP, so its still somewhat a PC.

And, since you're totally geeking it out, are you sure you wouldn't be better to go with a Sun Fire setup? That easily covers your Unix/Linux OS usage demand and you can just plop down a Sun Ray wherever you want in your house. Then, they have storage arrays that can easily handle 200-300 DVDs worth of storage without compression. True they're SCSI, but hell that's a thousand times better for RAID than SATA. SATA only came along to look like SCSI. Try a Sun StorEdge 9980 with a few 15,000 rpm drives to get your 1.6 TB and then up it from there to a total of 74.7 TB.

Now, for the average Joe, who isn't a computer geek, but enjoys high quality audio and video, they can go with the Media PC.

But, Gonk, seriously, how many people out there have 275 - 300 DVDs? Maybe 100 on average for a semi-movie aficionado, and with them being simple 480p format 6 GB maybe pushing it, but I'll give it to you, for some discs contain both wide screen and full screen formats on them. But even so, that's a requirement of 600 GBs on average, leaving 400 GBs of space out of the 1 TB.

Now, a WAV, zero loss, format consumes, on a less than normal average, 650 MB, or roughly 615 CDs worth of space in that 400 GB available space. (Note: Most of the old music is actually uses around 450 MB of a CD as the lengths of albums were often shorter than they are today.) But seriously, I can see 200-300 CDs being the number of discs in a semi-music aficionado’s realistic statistics. So that would actually require 200 GBs of space, erring on the safe side (it's only 195 GBs with the 650 MB average, still leaving 200 GB's for recording.

Now this is without using any compression, when we throw compression into the mix, that only benefits us more, giving us greater storage space in the 1 TB array. Now, are you telling me that 2 500 GB HDs can’t be afforded easily and still allow future expansion if needed? That’s using RAID 0 configuration. That should not loose you any space of the full 1 TB. Now they could go 4 250GB HDs for even less investment and implement a RAID 5, 6, or 7 at a lower cost and more reliable, so you don’t have to worry about re-ripping everything if a drive fails, as you said. Then just throw in a extra 250GB to handle that loss.

So you may be a little wrong in your dismissal of storage availability per price. And, Charlie, who doesn’t want to see their favorite porno site on a 80” screen, so web surfing availability is a must? Just Kidding about the porno!

I still think that it's a little early for archiving video libraries to a media server. I was basing my numbers on my own collection (actually aiming a bit under), and the 220 or so titles that I've accumulated since '98 add up to over 450 discs total (at least 325+ when you exclude bonus discs) - many of the extra discs are the result of buying TV shows, which is why the count gets a bit elevated. I also was keeping in mind the many links I've seen to people's DVD Profiler pages, where 200+ titles seemed a not-uncommon number. As for the 6GB figure, any dual-layer movie disc will probably use at least 6GB for the movie itself. With movies often running 2+ hours (~2:20 for the Star Wars prequels, 2.5+ hours for the Harry Potter movies, ~3 hours for the LotR theatrical versions, and so on) and a fair number of titles including both DD 5.1 and DTS, I think there are more discs in your collection that use 6GB+ for the movie itself than you think. (And I'm not counting titles with both widescreen and full screen, since I have almost no such discs in my collection.) Many of those TV show sets put four 42-minutes episodes on one disc, which requires a dual-layer disc (some actually use dual-sided dual-layer discs, which put eight episodes totaling probably 12 to 15GB on that one disc). We may be talking about a "simple" 480i format (not 480p), but the reason that they've been able to achieve such good picture quality on DVD within the limitations of MPEG-2 is making use of dual-layer discs to allow them to apply less compression. I still think that my numbers are not unreasonable - until both the cost of storage and the media server/client interface evolve a bit more, I think that many people are going to continue to hold off.

Also, one reason that a central media server with a separate client appeals to me is the ability to have that server somewhere out of the way and to have more than one client accessing the data (so that you can record CSI to the server on Thursday evening while getting the kids in bed and then be able to watch it either in the den or in the bedroom later). A media PC in the main system wouldn't quite get there unless it also supported a remote client, at which point it'll potentially be easier to put the server in a stock (noisy) case, hide it somewhere, and put a client unit in the equipment rack.

I think you'd be crazy to run RAID 0 on a system like this unless you've backed up to tape or some other format - a failure in either drive (something that will happen at some point) would wipe out all of your data. RAID 1 or 0+1 would be a safe approach, but mirroring means you'd need to buy four of those 500GB drives (that's $1200 just for drives using your link, before you add a system to put it in). RAID 5 is probably the most cost-effective and safe scenario, but I think the reason we see so many 1TB setups right now is because that's the cost threshold beyond which most folks aren't ready to go. For audio, the hardware and prices have reached a point where it's possible to put a CD library onto the computer. For video, I think it'll be a bit longer before it starts really catching on.

Boy, we've really hijacked this thread, haven't we?

One thing about HDMI 1.3 inputs and outputs is that this will be 100% necessary for the raw audio bitstreams of the new formats from both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD to make it to an outboard surround processor. Not toslink, not coaxial, not pro-digital connectors, and Firewire doesn't seem to be in the picture.

Also, digital video and audio are sent down the same HDMI pipeline. The surround processor would strip out the audio and send the video stream on to the display. This HDMI 1.3 switching is again necessary.

HDMI version 1.3 published specs. are expected this year.

These are NOT "dream" items, these are features that must be included.

As is, the 1st gen. HD players with built-in audio decoders seemingly need at least four audio DSP decoding chips to handle most of the formats (and some don't even include full Dolby Digital TrueHD or DTS-HD support so full format support in outboard decoders is a must and you need all the processing horsepower you can muster!).

Oh, and the much touted Arcam pre-amps are in the $2,000 - $5,000 range. That's dealer MSRP, with Outlaw they're supposed to have cut out the middle man.

Dan

Personally I think we'd all be better off if HDMI was scrapped completely and some sort of DVI + audio format was created instead.

As far as I can tell the whole HDMI spec from the connectors to the included DRM is crap.

Most of us will do just fine with today's digital surround formats for many years to come anyhow. After listening to what the 990 is capable of TODAY, I don't put much stock in gaining improvement from going to the higher bitrate formats.

I expect that it will take them at least 3 years to bring the new HD DVD specs up to a level of maturity that makes them worth investing in. By that time Outlaw will most likely have their new flagship piece out with all the requisite bells and whistles to take advantage of the new formats.

Until then, it's all just so much vaporware and not even good vaporware at that.

Lusting after cheesily designed connector formats?

That's just crazy talk.

Barring something truly unexpected, we're stuck with HDMI for a while. Ideally we would have HDMI 1.3 in time for inclusion in a successor to the Model 990. Considering how "smoothly" the standards development has gone for AACS as of late, I'm leery of accepting any target deadlines for standards publication, but I agree that 1.3 will come and will be a necessary feature/evil once it's here.

If we're thinking of the same units, the $2000 Arcam's HDMI switching is actually no different than the 990's DVI switching: it only support video switching, with no capability of getting audio across the HDMI.

For sure, HDMI is crap. Its main purpose is for the studios to make sure they can contain copyrights to their material, and no one can illegally distribute and view them. The current use of separate audio and video is fine.

As to toslink, or even firewire not being able to handle it; Ummm, don't you thing your media center computer could easily format that audio data to go across a toslink, and if greater is needed, send the audio via firewire, with the video image going out the DVI? Oh, yeah, I forgot, computers are just a passing phase.

Toslink can't handle the bandwidth of a DD+, DTS-HD, or Dolby TrueHD bitstream - the signal's too big. TrueHD in particular involves a lot of data. You'd need to somehow process the bitstream first (perhaps decoding it to PCM as required with HDMI 1.1/1.2 and then passing it across three or four toslink connections), and that is just too ungainly to be widely accepted. Firewire could probably do it (haven't seen the numbers actually run to verify it), assuming anyone establishing the standards wanted to give it the chance to. I'll let others decide how likely that is.

Speaking of HDMI on surround processors, it's been interesting to see it start to happen - especially the manner in which it's happened. There's the Arcam DiVA AVP-700 (list price $2,200), which offers HDMI switching for video only (no support for audio over HDMI). There's the Audiocontrol Maestro M2 (list price $2,500 and just reviewed at Secrets), which also offers HDMI switching for video only (again, no audio of any sort over HDMI). Arcam's updated FMJ-AV9 offers HDMI, which I think includes support for audio. Integra Research's RDC-7.1 offers an HDMI card, if you can swing $5,500 for a well-equipped processor. So two of the four HDMI-equipped processors that I've seen this year don't offer HDMI audio support of any kind (making them functionally identical to the DVI switching on the $1,100 Model 990 and the $700 Model 970). Anthem should have the D2 out soon, which will add another option for HDMI with audio (although the prices I've seen batted around for the D2 have been way on up there). If the rumors I've seen about an AVM-40 and AVM-50 from Anthem pan out, there will be a couple more with HDMI audio as well, but even then the price of admission for HDMI audio in a processor will be far too close to $4,000 for my taste. It still goes without saying that HDMI 1.2 or higher will be a necessary feature on the Model 990's successor (barring something really unexpected, at least), but it's going to be a while longer before the 990's DVI switching stops making sense.

Let me echo Charlie's suggestions from March 1st.

* 0.5db level trim increments.
* Per-source level adjustments
* Per source default volume levels (When I switch to DVD, set volume to X)

My old Pioneer Elite receiver had 0.5dB trim increments and you can tell. It was particularly helpful fine tuning the center channel. The "per-source" level adjustments would be great pariculary with stereo/bypass/upsample versus 5.1 modes. Finally, having a source volume would be great given the difference in volume between my cable TV and universal player.

I really hope these items are included in the 990 update.

I will buy when at min. they offer.....
HD radio
Firewire

I will buy now if they had...
HD radio
Firewire
HDMI
Parametric EQ or automatic room EQ
Bluetooth

I'm afraid that FireWire (as often requested as it has been) is going to be killed off by HDMI, so you may never see that included - HDMI v1.2 offers all that FireWire could and is likely to be supported by far more source components than FireWire ever was.

HDMI will appear in the next generation, but Outlaw wisely chose to launch the 990 in May 2005 with DVI instead - for the simple reason that HDMI was too much of a moving target. DVI provides the ability to switch HDMI video (all you need is a DVI-HDMI cable) without the consumer confusion of changing versions. When the 990 launched, HDMI v1.1 was the latest version, but now HDMI v1.2 is out (with the ability to support SACD) and many people want to see HDMI v1.3 before they buy into an HDMI processor.

The 990 may yet get EQ capability - its cousin the P-965 has it (although the implementation used on the 965 apparently didn't appeal to the Outlaws and they've held off) and at least one person posted that he'd been told they were pursuing something that they liked and that could be provided with a firmware update.

I'm curious about Bluetooth - what devices would you use with Bluetooth in a processor? Hadn't ever thought of an application for that.

Well, besides my implementation of a Media Center PC, I do believe different source volumes would be a great addition. I am a little tired of turning the volume down to 25 for radio after watching a DVD at 45-50 and then going back down to 35 for TV/satellite watching. I don't think it would be that hard to implement a volume level per source selected.

Now, for those of you who do not believe that a PC implementation can be easily achieved, because of storage requirements. I predict by summer, or at least easily by year end you can get 2 TBs for under $500 and 3 TBs for not much more. So all of your storage requirements will be met to hold your exorbitant multiplicity within the 1000s of DVDs from the porn market you own. Oh, and I guess a few regular movies and CDs can be taken care of as well.

HD Radio is spreading all over the nation and it's free... I wonder why it's not included in more tuners?

You can check there's probably one in your area: http://www.ibiquity.com/hdradio/hdradio_hdstations.htm

It's too new to have made it into the development cycle for surround processors' tuners. You may see it in receivers in a year or so, but processors won't offer it for probably at least a few years.

There's at least a couple in my area, but (and this may be my own cynicism showing through) my biggest problem with radio these days isn't sound quality but content quality - and HD radio doesn't help with that.

There's more that many expect... here's a link for some of the products that have HD Radio now: http://www.ibiquity.com/hdradio/hdradio_hdproducts.htm

?, how do you get to be Desperado Member?
Or how did I get to be a Deputy Gunslinger Member?

User title is based on post count - you'll be a Gunslinger starting with your 16th post and a Desperado starting with your 501st post.

OK, thanks a lot.

But Gonk, how do you become an Ultimate Gunslinger?

Ah, that's the $0.64 question.

ZBTW-gonk, you said, "'m curious about Bluetooth - what devices would you use with Bluetooth in a processor? Hadn't ever thought of an application for that."

Bluetooth would allow speakers, DVD, AMPs, & etc. to be connected without wires. From what I understand that's what going to happen next year around this time.. Microsoft/Intel and a number of Co. have signed on for making that happen.

Here's one article touching on the bluetooth posibilities: http://www.t3.co.uk/news/247/general/general/bluetooth_set_to_replace_wi-fi_at_home

Outlaw just uses existing chip sets, they don't really develop them (way too small for that).

That being said, there is nothing preventing them from using existing standards from the PC industry to design a modular controller (really a media PC).

I think this is the way to go, then they can sell cards where they add value or the end user can buy their own. Outlaw can handle the issues such as cooling, noise issues, power supplies etc.

The world moves on.

An automated room correction EQ of some sort is really the biggest option holding me back from making the purchase...I have my finger on the trigger but can not pull it just yet since I am still doing some research. Everything else in this unit is perfect for my needs.

I think on the 990(firmware upgrade) or future pre/pro we need tonal controls for each channel. The 990's current tonal controls seem to only adjust the mains.

In addition to bwallen77's suggestion, which is also discussed elsewhere on this forum I would like to have volume controls for each channel physically on the amplifier...just like in the old days. I suppose the reason not to do so might be that it would add "noise" and the pots might requiring cleaning in ten years or more.

Would like some indicator such as LED's for each channel. The controls might be sliders.

I would like to see a variation of the auto-eq and the tone controls. Lets have an intermediate solution, A parametric EQ for each channel, say 3-5 frequencies. Adjustiable gain, bandwidth, and freq. But not automatic. I use RoomEQ wizard with a Behringer FBQ2496 now and it works out great. But if the 990 had parametric built in, I could get rid of the Behringer & have it on all channels! I really don't need (or necessarily trust) the automatic modes.

Does the Behringer add audible noise noise?
Is it balanced?

I like your suggestion a lot.. hope they do it for the 990 Ver 2

Hey how do you like your Klipsch speakers with the 990 pre? I have a friend who has older Klipsch Chorus II's. and they rock very nicely. How do the newer ones like yours sound? Klipsch is very detailed from what i understand.. is it to much though?
thanks

nfaguys,
Yes the Behringer is balanced in and out, and 24/96 processing. Very clean, no artifacts that I can hear.
I do hate the fact that the signal gets converted so many times, I wish the 990 had a digital out processor loop, process it in digital, then go back into the 990 and finally converted to analog. I also have a DEQ2496 which I can use all in the digital domain and its great, but I have to use that for other duties no related to HT.

At any rate the behringer does not add any noise, but is susceptible to ground loops, and the dreaded 60 hz hum can show up. But with good grounding and ground lifting if necessary, it can be eliminated. So far I really like it. i plan on using it with RoomEQ wizard this weekend to teek my system some more.

High End pre-pro with sound as good as at least ARCAM.

4 to 6 HDMI version 1.3 (or better) inputs, 2 HDMI 1.3 (or better) outputs

Full, no loss 24 bit/192 kHz processing, even for DSP and surround decoding modes (that could mean a 32 bit engine.

8 channel Dolby TrueHD at full Blu-Ray & HD-DVD specs.

8 channel DTS-HD Master Audio lossless at full Blu-Ray and HD-DVD specs.

8 channel Dolby Digital Plus at full Blu-Ray and HD-DVD specs.

Direct 8 channel LPCM processing at full Blu-Ray and HD-DVD specs.

Plus all the other standard surround codec support.

The ability to apply matrixed back surround decoding to ANY 5.0 or 5.1 channel track, whether it be PCM or any flavor of Dolby or DTS codecs. A Logic7 like mode that can also do a quality simulation of stereo back surround channels too for 5.0 or 5.1 channel sources.

You can lock in 8 channel surround decoding for any appropriate 2 channel or mult-channel surround track until the user specifies it be turned off. Denon receivers have this ability and it's a good, logical feature, so you don't have to keep manually forcing back surround decoding every time the data stream changes on a movie or music disc (even if it's not specifically flagged).

Pure DSD decoding (no conversion to PCM) for SA-CD bitstreams sent via HDMI. DAC's must also comply to full DSD specifications with no down conversion.

LPCM master clock (Apogee is a good brand) for all pure LPCM streams or decoded or de-compressed codecs after regular conversion to appropriate LPCM streams. Minimize or eliminate jitter (clocking errors) thoughout the system.

On screen display that can be adjusted to any and all Blu-Ray and HD-DVD resolutions so there is no loss of synch with HDMI displays.

Full HDMI Group compliance.

Full balanced topography and 8 channel balanced outputs. Or even better, 13 channel outputs with support for four separate subwoofers (stereo front-- with center bass split between the two), and stereo surrounds for sides and rear), and one for the dedicated LFE channel (or for basic systems, summed main channel bass + LFE).

Separate and fully adjustable tactile transducer output.

Slope and crossover settings for each individual channel.

Delay settings for each channel and all subwoofer outputs.

To save on back panel space, eliminate the multi-channel analog inputs. This is primarily an HDMI input product.

No internal radio to cut down on possible interference.

Separate power supplies for video, digital and analog sections. True balanced power topography.

Ultra low noise circuitry and power supplies.

Detachable (third party replaceable), heavy duty three prong power cord.

Firmware/software upgradeable by user.

If possible, audiophile-grade modular design for easy hardware upgrading and customizing.

I’m glad that at least Dan the Hitchman isn't asking for too much. Some people get on here and want their cake and to eat it too. While Dan's at it, why not throw in a full configurable mp3 (or what ever the latest and greatest music compression codec is at the time) system. Heck if we're going that far, let's just include a fully upgradeable CPU (Floating Point of Inline) and have the Outlaws write a full media centered operating system. And have them do the operating system being open source for user programming, so we can all post our own code we have edited.

Seriously, Dan, don't take this the wrong way, but it becomes too easy to simply request whatever the latest and greatest tech is, and then when you get that, a later and greater one comes out, that you're upset it wasn't included.

Dan, perhaps you don't use your radio at all, but some of us just want some background noise that we don't have to manage what's coming out, and to be informed of some of the current news of the time. That's easily accomplished by tuning in to a radio station. I'm sure the Outlaws can accomplish some decent magnetic field shielding to prevent unwanted noise. So, they can keep the tuner in there.

Anyway, I just feel some people are being unrealistic on their requirements, and more than that, their price expectations are outlandish. I wouldn't be surprised if Dan and others want all he asked for and to pay what the 990's price currently is. I'm sorry, but that's unreasonable and inconceivable.

Outlaws, keep up the good work, for most of us believe and appreciate you considering what we would like, but hopefully we won’t expect that our ‘demands’ are met in the next gen 990.

That's a might impressive list. There are some good suggestions in there, as well as some features that already exist in Outlaw's line and need to be retained. Some of it I really like, but to get the whole list would drive the price up beyond what most of us could hope to afford - making the features that do appeal to me inaccessible. A few thoughts...

I like the input quantity - certainly 4, maybe 6. Two outputs would be good for folks with a projector and a second HD display, which may be a decent sized markets as HDTV's drop in price. But is there even going to be an "or better" beyond v1.3 any time in the forseeable future? We knew that v1.3 was coming a couple years in advance, and there's no specific discussion of anything to follow it.

I agree. It would seem that Pro Logic IIx would suffice for this, though, and Outlaw already supports PLIIx with DTS 5.1 on both the 990 and the 1070/970, even though it's not a required capability for PLIIx processors.

If I understand your request, this has been possible with every Outlaw processors since (and including) the 950. I think the 1050 even did it, actually, although the processing options weren't as complex then. If I have a processor that can't remember that I prefer PLIIx on top of Dolby 2.0 and PCM for my cable and DVd sources but want straight stereo for them on my CD input, I'm not going to be a happy camper.

This is an interesting idea, but you are talking about greatly limiting the options for DAC's (or even requiring an extra set, perhaps) for a single format when there are strong arguments made suggesting that DSD-to-PCM conversion isn't really detrimental. This is one that I think starts pushing the price away from Outlaw's main customer base.

What's wrong with simply using a blank screen and a standard resolution for providing OSD via HDMI? Maybe 480p since all DVI and HDMI displays will accept it and it'd be easier to generate. Unless there's a high-end scaler with a chip like Gennum or Realta behind it, I'd rather my digital video sources (DVI/HDMI) simply get passed through without any alteration, and if I can get my OSD setup menu by replacing that signal with a blank screen I'd be content.

Those four extra sub outputs seem like pure overkill to me. An option for stereo subs would be cool and would see a fair bit of use, but anything beyond that is pushing the price tag up rapidly while adding features that users will never even touch.

A totally new output with special controls? For a device that most owners will never use and some have never even heard of? Seems like overkill. Maybe a standalone module could be offered that tied into an extra subwoofer output (or even went inline with the subwoofer output, like the SMS-1 does). That way, the folks who wanted this adjustment could have it and the rest of us didn't have to pay for it.

I don't think there's any point going beyond the quad crossovers of the 990 and 1070/970. If you need different crossovers for your left and right channels, then there are big problems somewhere in the system.

I am excited about the idea of not needing multichannel analog in my next processor (what with players like OPPO's 981HD offering HDMI support for both DVD-A and SACD), but I think Outlaw should wait another generation before retiring multichannel analog inputs. The new HD-DVD and Blu-ray players will all work just fine with HDMI, but folks still have some very nice DVD-A/SACD players that need those multichannel analog inputs. Eventually, yes, but not yet.

Eh... I like having a radio, and my 990's tuner hasn't given me any grief so somebody has clearly found a way to deal with the possible interference. They could even simply yank power away from the tuner entirely when it wasn't in use by either the main or second zone if they wanted to really play it safe.

Nice idea - but this is one of those features that starts to do unpleasant things to the price point. Outlaw's primary customer base can't (or can but doesn't want to) afford this level of over-engineering.

Historically, a true modular design tends to lead to price tags starting upward of $4000 (often well). That's nearly four times the price of the 990, without even considering some of the fairly extreme options already proposed (five independent sub outputs, tactile transducer output, DSD DAC's, ...).

gonk wrote:

but folks still have some very nice DVD-A/SACD players that need those multichannel analog inputs.

Gonk is write about that. Furthermore some of us use the 7.1 analog inputs for other formats. For example I use them for SACD and also for my 4 channel in-line (call it super stereo if you wish ) recordings.

I'd take te defense of the 7.1 input a little further and sugest adding a second one. those of us who are SACD/DVD-A fans have no means of utilizing new 7.1 formats touted for HDDVD and Blue Ray.
I know a few years back Sony made a device that allowed 2 sets of multi-channel ins to be switched
but I don't know of anything like thet on the market today (anyone else know of such a critter?)
i would think there could be a reasonable niche market for such a product with the new DVD formats competing for the multi-channel input.

This may have been suggested already, but here is my (current) hair-brained idea:
I have been reading stories such as this one and dreaming of possibilities.
How about a removable LCD panel faceplate for the 970/990? I can't see the darn thing from 8 feet away and it would be nice to have a little more information. The 990 already has USB, so an external dongle with a bluetooth adapter is not too big a leap. Add a battery powered portable "faceplate" that could be stuck on a wall (or the back of the 990's remote), now that would be pretty cool.

Make it smaller.

I understand why it's so big (connections, adaptation of existing product) but it's still huge. Maybe they could have a one rack height control panel connected to the big box via a ribbon cable. Big box could go out of sight deep inside cabinet and all you see is an elegantly small 2" x17" face with display and buttons/knob. They could offer as an optional model for a reasonable price. Call it the 990R or something.

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet but what I and many others would like is the analog/hdmi LFE settings. On many of the newer receivers you have a 5,10 and 15 decibel sub boost button to compensate for the lower LFE tracks when using hdmi and analog. The low LFE occurs when using hdmi/analog to receive PCM,dolby digital plus and dolby true hd. It also occurs when listening to dvd audio/sacd. There's a huge discussion on this at AVS. The settings need to also be input dependent so we can set them, calibrate and not have to mess with them again.

If you use hd dvd or blu ray, you have probably noticed the low LFE issue. The discs are purposely being mastered this way so that when you calibrate using a disc it is balanced out. BUT, when you go to play a movie the LFE channel is usually around 10db lower than the rest of the channels. THis is a big annoyance and I hope the LFE boost option is available on the new pre pro.

As to locking onto 7.1 decoding until the user turns it off the Outlaw 950 does not have this functionality. I don't know about the 990, but Marantz, Pioneer, Denon, and a few others have this feature.

You have a choice of AUTO back surround decoding (only turns on when the data stream is flagged), ON [overlays DD PLIIx--or possibly Circle Surround 7.1 or Logic7 depending on the brand and features--onto any source from PCM to DTS until it hits a format that uses discrete back channel(s) like DTS-ES 6.1 or 6.1/7.1 PCM, TrueHD, or DTS-HD and then those formats take over], or OFF.

That's a very simple feature and it's very handy too.

The upcoming top end Sherwood Newcastle receiver is supposed to sport six HDMI 1.3 inputs and possibly 2 HDMI 1.3 outputs.

The summer/fall Denon and Marantz receivers for 2007 from their upper mid to high end models are expected to include four or more HDMI 1.3 inputs, all the latest audio formats for Blu-ray and HD-DVD, DeepColor support, and full 1080p upscaling and pass-through features.

Why can't an Outlaw pre-amp that's a little more than the 990 have these features (and more) with better sound quality since the amplifiers have been dropped?

This is not a lot to ask, especially if they get help from Dolby and DTS in implementing the decoding software properly.

I'm not sure I follow this. Both the 950 and 990 allow you to "train" them for each input so that it would apply the preferred decoding for each different input signal (PCM stereo, Dolby 2.0, Dolby 5.1, DTS 5.1) - for example, I've long used a 6.1 or 7.1 processing mode to PCM stereo and Dolby 2.0 video sources (PLII+CES on the 950, PLIIx on the 990) while also using a surround back matrix decoding scheme with 5.1 sources (DD+CES and DTS+CES on the 950, DD+PLIIx and DTS+PLIIx on the 990). Flagged Dolby EX and DTS ES Discrete sources of course must be allowed to engage their proper decoding formats, but that doesn't interfere with my other preferences. I consider some memory like this to be an essential feature for a surround processor. The geek in me really likes the way that Anthem and Lexicon handle it (each input having a whole screen of input types and the corresponding user preferred processing), but that approach makes for a menacingly complex user interface for most users - which doesn't fit well with Outlaw's design approach.
Yes, but the hardware sample that was on display at CES just two months ago only had four inputs and one output - that makes for some major hardware revisions, to the point where I question their goal of an August release date. My personal doubts aside, I like their decision to move up to six inputs and I think that two outputs would not be a bad idea. I wonder how much more complex that makes getting HDCP compliance right (maybe none, maybe a bunch).
I'd say that that's exactly what we can expect from the 990's eventual replacement. It's not a question of "why can't it?" so much as it is a question of "when can it be ready?" Denon and Marantz will likely get them to market by early fall, but they share the R&D might of D&M Holding and all that entails. They also can expect to replace those first models within one year (very possibly nine months) with something that polishes the rough edges off of all this new technology. The 990's replacement will need to stand on its own in the market for a good three years, so they can't afford to leave things to be fixed "in the next model." It'll come - but not before Denon and Marantz get there. We might see it as soon as early 2008 (call it a year from now), if they catch some lucky breaks along the way.

I may be bucking the trend, but I'm not anxious to see outlaw rush to market with an HDMI 1.3 processor.
I'm a bit leary of the new sound formats as none of the early disc players from either camp provided a 7.1 listening solution. I would think there would be a reason for that.
Beyond that, we all revere Outlaw for it's superior processing at a reasonable cost. As early adopters have found out, many early generation products offer niether. It would be hard to visualize Outlaw being able to do so until the technology has matured a bit.
Those of us that are SACD/ DVD-A lovers have suffered along with processing in the source device and it's not been any huge burden. It will be more of a problem as we have to make choices as to what stays plugged into the 7.1 analog inputs. I think an outboard switcher, possibly with both 7.1 analog and HDMI switching capability would be a nobel product, But I'd hate to see the quality of the 990 degraded with less than superior processing or see the price shoot up to the point that we can't afford the unit.

Actually, I share your sentiment - when they do an HDMI v1.3 processor, it needs to be done right but it doesn't necessarily need to be the first one done. At this point, though, I wouldn't develop a next generation processor without v1.3 just because of the demands of the marketplace. In the meanwhile, the 990's still a strong product.

Another vote for HDMI matrix switching (maybe even a built in equalizer for those longer runs). I'd love to be able to run an HDMI to my PDP and one to my projector, both from the 990.

gonk,

I see you haven't played with Denon, Marantz, and Pioneer Elite receivers for a while. Download a manual (say for the Pioneer Elite 84) and you'll see what I'm talking about as to 7.1 decoding. It doesn't sound like the Outlaws can do this yet. It's a matter of software ergonomics.

As for Sherwood Newcastle, doesn't Outlaw have their newer pre-amps manufactured at the same plant?

I'd like to see Outlaw use the best DAC's possible too. I believe ARCAM uses top of the line Wolfson's and their products are some of the best sounding at any price IMHO. Of course, ARCAM also tries to keep the noise floor at a bare minimum too and uses very good capacitors, power supplies, and circuit board designs. They are not hugely expensive products either.

Dan

I've picked through the Pioneer Elite 84 manual at some length and haven't seen anything there regarding 7.1 processing that isn't already implemented in the 990 and 1070/970 (excluding THX modes and HDMI audio input, of course).

The Model 990 is built by Etronics and based on an Etronics platform (the Sherwood P-965). It is possible that next generation of Outlaw gear could be built by Etronics as well, in which case it's likely that the platform being developed for the Sherwood receiver would be used by Outlaw. That still doesn't change the fact that I doubt Sherwood can get their receiver onto shelves by August. Outlaw also has a long-standing relationship with Eastech (their partner for the 1070/970), so it's impossible to say that Outlaw's eventual HDMI v1.3 offerings will come from Etronics' assembly line.

Well, for the most part it looks like Onkyo's Integra line has heard some of my pleas.

They are releasing the DTC-9.8 pre-amplifier with all the new audio formats, ProLogic IIx processing of any 5.0/5.1 signal (including PCM, TrueHD, DTS-HD and DTS Master Audio), accepting of all 8 possible channels with up to 24 bit/192 kHz resolution (with full 24/192 capable DSP and Audyssey overlays), eight Burr-Brown 1796 DAC's, four HDMI 1.3 inputs, Silicon Optix Reon-VX video processing, eight balanced XLR outputs, home automation command and control plug in communication, 12 volt triggers, toroidial transformer, separate power supplies for audio and video sections, three processing engines, updateable, master clock circuit for low jitter, variable cross-overs for all speaker pairs, Audyssey calibration, A/V synch, HD Radio, Sirius and XM HD ready, etc.

Price? $1,600!

I truly would like to see what Outlaw would do to better this... better parts, better sound, etc. Hmmm...

Dan

After finding a used Onkyo TX-SR702 on ebay, I've decided to sit on the sidelines and wait to see what Outlaw will do next. With HD video still not yet mainstream (I still don't YET have an HDTV, but that will change soon) everybody is still an early adoptor.

The war between bluray and hddvd isn't over yet, but it's getting interresting. I was thinking about getting the Oppdigital DV981HD player when I pop for a new tv, but now it appears that for only $20 more I can buy a hddvd player (that will ALSO upconvert dvd's to near HD and play CD's and maybe sacd's too). That would make the hddvd player a no-brainer, if bluray wins out, I'm only out $20 for the player. This assumes NOT buying any hddvd disks, just renting them.

Maybe by the time the hddvd-vs-bluray becomes less blurry the hdmi standard will too.
Outlaws' next prepro / receiver would have to include hdmi 1.3 switching and be able to use the hdmi inputs as audio sources. There should also be the option to NOT pass the audio to the monitor
hdmi output (why drive the monitor's speakers if you are using the home theatre speakers?).

I hope the phono input is kept (wouldn't be an outlaw if we didn't like analog 'nscd's err?).
(that's Not So Compact Disks btw). Maybe a few extra 'aux' inputs for those that want to add external stuff such as Squeezeboxes, HD or Sat radio tuners, multimedia computers, etc.
Also USB and Firewire connections to allow using the box as a 'sound card' for a computer to stream audio / video.
Also alow renaming inputs, and redirecting the front panel input to real panel jacks. Have to have the on screen display available on the hdmi output as well. Of course, implement all the new hd audio surround modes.

Please consider a model that has high end video processing such as the Silicon Optix Realta / Reon or a comparable Gennum chipset. DCDI is growing really long in the tooth and while it's OK for 480i deinterlacing, it's really been eclipsed by the Gennums and Silicon Optix chips.

There aren't a lot of companies offering this sort of functionality in pre-processors, and it really improves the home theater experience for those of us with HD displays.

The only real competition in this space is from items like the much more expensive and also aging Anthem D2 - a more reasonably priced alternative with Outlaw factory direct pricing could really get the attention of a whole new audience for the 990's successor.

The Integra DTC-9.8 just set the bar as far as "feature set" is concerned. It'll be tough doing ALL that and not going over $1400 the the next gen 990.

I couldn't find anything on the DTC-9.8, but the DTC-9.4 has a list price of $2000 and didn't offer a lot more in featuers than the 990 (it added THX certification and Onkyo's Net-Tune, but lacked the 990's DVI switching). Is there some good info on the DTC-9.8's feature set?

Gonk - my friend - you are slipping...

Here you go:

http://www.av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=22046

Ah, OK. Yeah, looks mighty interesting. And it makes sense that Integra would be able to pull this off since Onkyo (their parent company) was the first to get HDMI v1.3 into receivers. Going to be interesting to see what the next generation of pre/pros bring to the table.

I was just poking around a bit at AVS and came across something that I hadn't seen mentioned previously (probably because I hadn't been keeping a particularly close eye on the nuances of Blu-ray player features and quirks lately). First, Sony's new BDP-S300 offers an HDMI v1.1 output and no decoding of TrueHD or DTS-HD MA (HDMI v1.3 had been widely expected, as I suspect had TrueHD decoding). That bit of news led me to a real curious tidbit: the only two HDMI v1.3 sources presently on the market (the Playstation3 and Samsung BD-P1200) do not support output of TrueHD or DTS-HD MA bitstreams. The hardware allows it (as required by the HDMI v1.3 spec), but both devices will require a firmware update to enable that capability. Nobody seems to know when such firmware updates might appear. Now I'm not one to shed too many tears over the presence (or lack of presence) of HDMI v1.3, but this brings up two issues that seem worth pointing out:

1. If you are buying an HDMI v1.3 receiver or processor right now, you should recognize that you are buying that TrueHD and DTS-HD MA decoding but will not be able to employ that decoding with any source for some indeterminant period of time. At least for now, you are still going to need to rely on the HD-DVD or Blu-ray player to decode the new formats (which means you still won't be able to decode DTS-HD MA, as no players support decoding it yet).
2. I don't doubt that there are ways to test and certify that receivers or processors with TrueHD or DTS-HD decoding are performing that decoding properly, but it's certainly going to be limited testing - possibly nothing but bench testing. I think it's reasonable to say that such tests can and will miss things. Once HDMI v1.3 sources start getting firmware that allows bitstream output of these formats, we may see some extra bumps in the road relating to that decoding. And this will affect anybody trying to roll out an HDMI v1.3 receiver or processor in the near future.

As I've said before, the mess that is HDMI has only served to further muddy the already significant mess that the current format war has dropped onto the market. This simple issue (not having firmware to enable TrueHD and DTS-HD MA bitstream output on two players) is just one more reminder of why I feel for the companies (like Outlaw) trying to develop good products in the present environment.

Thanks gonk, it is nice to have someone point out just where on the hype curve we are.
One other link in that chain is the source material. I am willing to bet that, even if HDMI v1.3 were fully adopted by the hardware manufacturers today, 5 years from now we will still be lamenting how few titles are available in 7.1 sound formats while we ponder whether we should jump on the 9.1 bandwagon...

It does appear that 7.1 content is going to be scarce, possibly very scarce. We're going to need these HDMI receivers and processors to at least provide something like PLIIx processing for all of these 5.1 sources, whether they're decoded by the player and passed as multichannel PCM or whether they're passed as bitstreams (assuming that becomes possible at some point) and decoded in the processor.

It is a failure of the manufacturers to use HDMI parts that actually have code embedded in them that do all the functionality of the specs. in question irrespective of the mess that is HDMI. If it is an HDMI 1.3 chipset (receiving or transmitter side) it should be able to do audo bitstreaming, DSD bitstreaming, auto A/V synch, DeepColor and xvYCC support, etc. The manufacturers shouldn't be able to just willy nilly pick and choose the options and only state it has version HDMI xx as the consumer's only guide.

I wouldn't mind if Outlaw took that $1,600 and with their more direct to the consumer selling model add better "hand picked" parts like much better capacitors, op amps, circuit boards, power supplies, etc.

As to the DTC-9.8 I have seen a preliminary specs. sheet that touches on the features I mentioned before. I would hope Outlaw uses either these top of the line Burr-Brown PCM/DSD DAC's or the top end Wolfsen PCM/DSD DAC's rather than those used before in their previous products.

Also, pure direct DSD compatibility via HDMI would be awesome! There seemingly are HDMI 1.2 and later universal players coming that can send the decompressed DSD bitstream from SA-CD's to outboard processors which can accept DSD data.

Dan

The chipset can do all of the v1.3 spec'd capabilities (we assume, in the absence of proof one way or another), but nobody bothered to include an option in the firmware to enable bitstream output. That's all code that is going to be tied to an individual player manufacturer's interface design, so I can see where no amount of embedded code would solve that - you can't force bitstream output, after all, so you need to rely on the manufacturer to stick in a setting somewhere to select between decoded PCM or raw bitstream. I suspect that the rationalization (assuming that either company would comment on it) would be that when both the Samsung BD-P1200 and the Sony PS3 were released, no hardware existed that could accept said bitstreams, so they didn't want to give the consumer the option of turning on a feature that then would not work. That would match well with the industry-wide history of DVD players whose default DTS output is PCM rather than bitstream - it took us until the last three years or so to start seeing players consistently default to bitstream, even though DTS decoding in new receivers has been common for easily six (or maybe even seven) years. Is it a good rationalization? No, it's a pretty poor one, so hopefully firmware updates will start addressing this before too long.

Unfortunately, gonk there ARE HDMI 1.3 chipsets floating around that no amount of code can add features to. There is a fairly strong rumor going around about the PS3, for instance, that they used an early HDMI 1.3 transmitter chip that cannot do advanced format bitstream output... that's why Sony hasn't added the feature and some insiders are pushing for internal DTS Master Audio decoding instead.

If true that sucks because I have a PS3 and wanted to hear DTS MA lossless (all Fox/MGM titles) via one of the current and upcoming products that would handle it.

There may be other HDMI products in the same boat as the PS3. They say they have such and such a version, but the chipset used doesn't even HAVE the capability on board where you couldn't just turn it on with firmware.

Well, they pushed pretty dang hard to get v1.3 into the PS3 with just five months between official publication of the v1.3 spec and launch of the console. Bitstream output of DTS-HD MA and TrueHD would have seemed like an important thing to get right, but considering the compressed time frame it's certainly possible that there was some snag nobody saw until it was too late (particularly regarding DTS-HD MA, since that particular standard has been pretty late in getting itself ironed out). I'd be curious to see if that PS3 rumor is proven true. From what I've been reading in the last day or so, the BD-P1200 uses a newer chip that has just been rolled out. I haven't dug real deeply into that chip's inner workings, but the indications I've seen suggest that it should be pretty solid. So far, though, nobody else seems to have v1.3 players in or even reasonably close to production that I've been able to find, which just adds to the uncertainty. None of the HD-DVD players are trying to offer v1.3, which makes perfect sense since HD-DVD's have so far all been mastered in a mode that prevents bitstream output even if the player supports it - not much point including bitstream output support when all of your software is going to deny you that ability anyway.

Remember that a product's availability to offer the features that are part of the HDMI 1.3 spec require more than "1.3 chips". THe features are not just made possible by the HDMI stack, but by other aspects of the product's circuitry.

For example, the lip sync feature requires all upstream products to have an EDID statement that reports their latency downstream with the "first" unit in the chain having sufficient buffer capability to do the needed delay. Similarly, xvYCC color and Deep Color require the proper organization within the product.

It is true, though that the 48 bit Deep Color is HDMI receiver/transmitter dependant, and there are no chips yet that handle the 16 bit per channel signals.

This is only part of what makes it all such fun to design a product these days, and then use it in a system.

My suggestion to be included in the new replacement for the model 990 preamp/processor and the model 1070 receiver is a "black out" option that can be activated for the LCD front display.

When this button on the pre/pro or receiver (or on their remote controls) is hit it turns off the front LCD display completely, as if the equipment had been turned off with the power switch, but leaves the machine on and functioning normally (no volume reduction of any kind). If you use the remote to change the volume (or the volume dial on the machine itself), or any other button, then the display will light back up for 5 seconds so you can see what volume adjustments you are making, then it would go right back to turning the LCD off. It would automatically stay in this completely dark mode for as long as you want (no annoying timers to have to set, please), until you hit the black out button again or until the machine was turned off, which would reset the LCD display to light up again next time you turn the machine on.

This is so that when you are watching movies you don't have the irritating visual distraction of the LCD being lit, even if your machine has a "dim" option for it's LCD, it's still distracting.

I've only seen a few machines, usually higher end equipment, that have an option to turn off all the lights on the front of a pre/pro or receiver so you can have that great darkness when you're watching a movie. And yet, this is a feature that wouldn't cost a lot or be hard to implement, just add one button to the machine itself and to the remote and put a circuit inside the machine that will turn the power to the LCD lighting mechanism off/on when that button is hit. It would be great to have this really cool feature on the new Outlaw pre/pro and receiver!

On a related note, please make the main power switch light (that tells you the machine is turned on) as dim as you can, so it's not a needless distraction when watching a movie. It's only needs to be bright enough that it can be seen to be on when the room is darkened. Bright, gaudy power lights are really annoying. And no lights at all when the machine is turned off (no red "power off" lights), the machine should just go totally dark. Thanks for listening to these ideas!

How about a "motherboard" type change to the panel inside the 990 to allow the acceptance of the HD Audio formats?

I would rather pay a couple hundred in shipping and materials/labor and have a new circuit board put in so my 990 can accept these audio formats than to buy a whole new pre-pro.

The magnitude of that change would be far more than a simple board swap, unfortunately. Digital input board(s) and the entire rear panel would have to change to provide for HDMI, the DSP would have to be replaced and probably more than one board revised to accept a chip that offered the new audio formats, and before you know it the cost to develop, manufacture parts for, and then rebuild individual units would be as much as a brand new, factory line produced unit.

Random Musings...

I want a switch to change the rear speakers from surround duties to main channel duties. When I'm listening to 2-channel music I do NOT want some phony baloney surround scheme, I want full range pumping through the front and rear speakers.

I expect to run some passive Linn DMS (have now) in the rear for surround duties, and some active DMS (may buy) in the front. Or at the least run the passive DMS up front and maybe some full size Magnepans in the rear suspended from the (vaulted) ceiling. Room is about 19.5 by 21.

I say 'Screw it, I'm not going to spend 10's of hours moving my junk around fractions of an inch at at time. I want set and forget!' And furthermore, my junk needs to sound good everywhere in the room, not just in a space the size of a hatbox floating just above the center of the couch.

On the off chance that I somehow get a stick lodged where it can massage my prostate, then I'll turn off the rear speakers and pretend to be a statue in the 'sweet spot', all the while marveling at the . EDIT: can you tell I've had a recent frustrating experience with some 2-channel purists (read: suckhole losers)?

I've never understood the overwhelming desire many folks exhibit to 'hear what the recording engineer heard, or wants me to hear.' I say he can go sit and spin. I want to hear the music I want to hear, the way I want to hear it.

Another bottle of mulled vitriol at a later date.

Your first random musing made me think immediately of the 5/7 Stereo mode on Outlaw's processors: it will take a stereo source and copy the left/right signals to all the speakers (left to left side/rear surrounds, right to right side/rear surrounds, and a summed signal to the center).

For the Next Generation 990, I'd make it HD. A name like Model 1000HD

I would add the following:

I would have 5 or 6 HDMI inputs and a two outputs.

Video up conversion to all the HD formats.

The latest audio codecs and processing.

Balanced Sub output.

Balanced Inputs.

I'd add another 7.1 channel input.


What I'd remove:

I'd remove all Composite Video and S-Video inputs and just have HDMI and Component with audio digital inputs and outputs.

Remove the USB port on back and put it on the front for firmware updates.

---

Aesthetically it could change, but I wouldn't be bothered if it didn't.

I'd like smaller increment adjustments in the crossover filter. For that matter, it wouldn't bother me if you had smaller increments across the board. Then you won't have any more complaints for that sort of thing whether it truly makes a difference or not.

This is a pretty good list. I don't know that I'd add a second 7.1 analog input, though, since the arrival of HDMI inputs will actually start to remove the need for these inputs. Folks are going to use HDMI for the new HD formats, leaving just DVD-A and SACD to maybe use multichannel analog - and even then, the last generation or so of DVD-A/SACD players have more often then not included HDMI v1.1 outputs. I'd also hang onto at least one or two composite and s-video inputs for legacy devices and other unusual components (SMS-1, for example).

Retep,

A fine list. I agree with gonk to keep a couple of composite and S-video inputs with corresponding L & R analog audio inputs. Of course they would be assignable and nameable.

I would like 1/2 dB increments on speaker levels. For me this is particularly important for the center channel.

I don't want to loose any of the 990's musical ability; I really like stereo Upsample! However, I would add a "balance" function for 2-channel in 1/2 db increments to adjust for individual recordings without having to make the changes in the main menu. The settings would revert to the original user defined settings when switching inputs.

Finally, the video processor would be able to scale well to all the common native screen resolutions.

this thread is quite long. I don't know if i've mentioned this or not. but I would like to be able to save separate settings for DTS and DD. right now if you calibrate your 990 for DD, it's not quite the same for DTS. I know this isn't a big deal for other folks. but for me. who watches DTS just as much as I do Dolby Digital.. it's a big difference.

I have to recalibrate manually whenever I watch a DTS soundtrack on a movie.

DTS is much more full volume and aggressive in their soundtracks.

Deleting analog L/R and either composite or S-vid is not a good idea. Many of us use them for a variety of purposes; especially necessary with zone 2 functions


Subsequent products should be backward compatible (as well as "looking" ahead.

nfaguys,

I never mentioned getting ride of the analog L/R or phono input, just the composite and s-video. Obviously a lot of people here still use them and I obviously don't. However, I don't feel like we need so many. Most of my old equipment gets retired at some point and if you're going HD which seems to be the future of most products, the legacy has to go at some point.

I agree that the quantity can start to be scaled back (the seven composite and s-video inputs spread across the front and rear panels of the 990 are probably not being fully utilized by more than a couple of 990 owners at most). It's just not yet time to eliminate them entirely, I don't think.

Gonk & Retep & I are, I believe on same page.
I can't think of a reason to shed the composites and/or s-vids, other than space. It's nice to have options.

I also agree to keep the composite video, I still have a laser disc player that is used on occasion because some of the titles were never released on dvd. Like Nfaguys said it's nice to have options.

Actually use powerful enough DSP engines that can apply Audyssey EQ, tone control, bass management, etc. to PCM, Dolby TrueHD, DTS Master Audio, and the like at 96 kHz and higher sampling rates WITHOUT downconverting the signals!

Or even accept and process all 8 channels of 24/96 resolution audio and 6 channels of 24/192 resolution audio no matter the source!

This is a very big hurdle that some manufacturers haven't jumped yet. Even though they know the specifications for Blu-ray and HD-DVD... they add caveats and quid pro quo's to their processors.

Outlaw, make it so!

Dan

Oh, here're a few good features that very few manufacturers include:

HDMI 1.3 auto lip synch feature.

Full video calibration adjustments for each input, not just a global one. You'd be surprised at how handy that feature can be.

User menu to adjust (per input, again not globally) the Reon-VX processor's many features.

Full x/y/z plane aspect ratio adjustments for up to and including 1080p/24 signals with no loss in quality for those with constant height 2.35:1 projection systems and anamorphic lenses.

Scalers that can perform the proper image stretch/crop for 2.35:1 ratio movies usually fail to include adjustments for other in-between ratios like 2.0:1 and 2.20:1-- the latter ratio is the standard for 70 mm movies (where you can place proper black pillarbox bars to keep said ratios intact within a 2.35:1 frame). Given movies with those ratios, for instance, and turning on the scaling for just the 2.35:1 ratio will lead to severe over cropping of the picture, both top and bottom!

If there is to be a powerful video processor onboard and fast DSP audio chips, provide adequate cooling for said chips because they get very, very, very hot. I can't stress this enough.

The Onkyo receivers and pre-amps, for instance, that have the Reon-VX chip and three DSP processor chips onboard get extremely hot to the touch (I'd say almost to dangerous over heating levels) and looking at photos of the insides they have not provided the necessary internal cooling for these "over-clocked" processor chips that are now basically computer CPU's (and any PC out there has very good passive with vent piping and/or active cooling for these CPU's to let them run at safe temps over the life of the product).

Cheers.

Dan,

I consolidated a list on this page: http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/7/t/000294.html

I'm working on consolidating it down further and perhaps you can help.

I've seen several references here and there to HDMI v1.3's automatic lip sync feature and what is required for it to work. As I understand it, the entire signal path needs to be HDMI v1.3 to make the feature work: source device (HD-DVD, Blu-ray, DVD, cable/satellite, or whatever), receiver or processor, and display. It's a catch that I haven't seen mentioned as often as I'd expect, but it's also a catch that makes perfect sense - every step of the process that is capable of performing some form of video processing (and thus delaying the display of the video signal) needs to be able to contribute to the calculation of the necessary audio delay required to keep the two signals synchronized. I agree that Outlaw and others need to make sure the capability is there in their HDMI v1.3 products, but it seems like it'll be a long time before many people are able to use the feature - and in the meanwhile, the rest of us will need to have the good ol' manual AV sync adjustment controls so we can work out the needed delay for each input. It makes me wonder if all the excitement about HDMI v1.3 is going to create a bunch of capabilities in our receivers and processors that we'll never get to use. First there's TrueHD and DTS-HD MA decoding (which, even once somebody starts building a player that is capable of outputting those bitstreams to a receiver, may still not be available as undecoded bitstreams because players will need to decode to PCM internally to support interactivity features), and then there's automatic AV sync (which will require users to own an entire HDMI v1.3 signal path that supports the feature before it can be turned on).

This is something that I think is certainly appropriate when using a chip like the Reon or Gennum, and worthwhile (albeit with perhaps less complexity) for other chipsets. The danger here, though, is user interface complexity. Someone who is familiar with video processors and all of the settings that they can offer may take it in stride, but there will need to be consideration for somebody just getting into home theater (or into separates from a "simple" surround receiver). That doesn't mean these adjustments can't be included, but they need to be managed somehow so that you can use them if you need them but don't have too much staring you in the face. No matter how good the hardware is, it's useless if you can't get it to work - and unlike Anthem, who can rely on dealer networks to set up units for customers who need help, Outlaw has to design something that a consumer can reasonably take out of the box and set up with just a user's manual in hand.

This is in some ways an extension of my previous concern. How many folks have 2.35:1 projection systems and anamorphic lenses? Even if the hardware will do it without adding cost, there's still a lot of programming (which does add cost) involved in getting this implemented - and the result is going to be even more complexity in the interface for a feature that most users won't even understand the purpose of, much less use (or, possibly even worse, use when they shouldn't).

As others have said, nice list. I agree with Gonk on the keeping of composite and s video outputs and inputs and maybe scaling back the quantity of those inputs. I am not so certain of badging this next gen as an HD prepro would be a good marketing move. From what I can see HDMI is a constantly moving target. I read somewhere that version 1.3b is a certainty and version 1.4 looks like a distinct possibility. With issues like that happening, I would think it is extremely difficult if not impossible, for a small company like Outlaw to call an HDMI spec the one they WILL use in the next prepro without shooting themselves in the foot. Unless perhaps it is only used to pass video along, and still require one to connect a digital cable for audio. If I am correct DVI already does this. One cable for video and another for audio. Admittedly, HDMI 1.1 can do that, at least.

Unless you have the capability to run new products out every 12 months ( Yamaha, Onkyo etc ) you might want to stay away from HDMI as long as you can until the Spec FINALLY settles down.

Sorry, did not mean to rant on like that!

For a 990; a sms-1 and tonal adjustments for the speakers with accross the board osd tv display for sound, for any speaker set-up. Then mixed speaker set-ups could be used a little more easily;(better sound);is what we want anyway. For video, just pass it through to the display the way it came in to the 990. Personally I like the 990 the way it is, thats why I bought it. I dont think outlaw should bend over backwards to keep up with the other this and thats for the HDMI specs 1,2,3,4,? until this really settled.

HDMI will never be settled. That's a fact. At least we know what HDMI 1.3 can do and perhaps build towards that goal.

Outlaw should work with the HDMI group as well as Silicon Optix for the Reon-VX chip, so they implement things correctly. Something Onkyo seemingly failed to do!

The Reon-VX is quite powerful, and I'm sure you can have per input adjustments if you turn them on. This is very important. As anyone who calibrates their displays knows... no two components calibrate alike and there are two distinct color signal requirements for SD and HD video. You can't just do a global setting.

Dan

HDMI has to be settled at some point, and it should be happening sooner rather than later (although I have my doubts about the likelihood of that). Clearly the HDMI group has less consideration for the consumer than we'd like based on what they have done with HDMI to date, but the continual revision process is in no one's best interests - and serves no practical purpose - if it continues forever. And we know what HDMI v1.3 can do, but are those capabilities actually going to be used by the formats that it was developed to support? Players can't currently pass a TrueHD or DTS-HD MA bitstream even when using early v1.3 transmitter chips, but even if the chipsets supported it, will the software allow it? Or will the software force the player to decode these bitstreams so that features like interactive menus, alternate commentary tracks, and downloaded content can overlay their respective audio onto the soundtrack? Automatic AV sync will be handy once it is available throughout the entire signal path, but how many cable/satellite boxes and standard DVD players are going to move to a more expensive v1.3 chip just to support this feature? We don't even know what future format might support the expanded color depth features.

If the Reon is the chip they use, I'd agree that it would be appropriate to coordinate with the chip maker to optimize the implementation - just like they'd coordinate with Cirrus or TI or whoever they get their DSP chip from. Onkyo was moving very fast to get these HDMI v1.3 receivers out in order to grab a big chunk of the "I need v1.3" market, and I doubt there was time to do more than get the chip working and crank up the assembly line.

I wish I had participated in this discussion long ago. I admire the thoughtful contributions and Outlaws' responses. I wish them even more success than they had with the 990.

I have had my 990 for a couple of years now and I love it. I am a research addict and have never doubted that I made the right choice at the time. It is a great product. The only feature I truly wished for then is the first one in this list.

If the 990v2 looks like the 990, maybe I can fool the wife. I won't be able to do that if the price exceeds $1500. So, SantaGonk here is my list:

1. Like gband, I am using the Behringer DEQ2496 for equalization (two actually, for L/R/Center/Sub). I would like to see the digital loop option because not only am I making extra conversions between the digital and analog domains, but the analog signal going into the 2496 varies with the volume control. It would be nice if I could use balanced analog connections at "line level". That said, I would much rather have the digital loop as discussed earlier.

Equalization is a dirty word to many, but done properly within the digital domain, I think the good far outweighs the bad. I would be THRILLED if the next 990 had a parametric EQ as easy to use and robust as the 2496. Then you could forget the digital loop thing.

2. I love the second zone functionality of the 990. I wonder how much it would cost to run only digital inputs into the 990 and have it provide two channel automagically for the second zone. In other words, no duplicated analog sound connections would be required. It is rather a moot point, because I already own all the extra cables.

By the way, I am curious about two things: what percentage of users utilize second zone functionality and how many of those utilize video. Is video necessary for the second zone?

3. The first place I would look to reducing costs would be in cutting most of the standard def video inputs (see number 2) and analog sound inputs. Keep the phono, aux and a tape loop along with one composite and s-video. It looks impressive to see all those jacks on the back panel, but most of the time I look at the front.

4. In some ways, I yearn for the days of separates. With all that we ask of a processor, I think it might make sense to consider separation of audio from video functionality. What I propose is that the only video processing that would occur is a single pass through HDMI connector which would grab the audio portion of the data and do whatever was required for lip sync.

The moving target of HDMI has been discussed many times here, and that is part of my reasoning. If your video output device has adequate quality, just get an HDMI switch - you can get a 3 to 1 for $40 now. If you need more video processing horsepower, choose the component that fits your needs. It will probably have HDMI switching built in. If something new happens with video, buy a new video box, not a new processor.

I would hope that most of us investing this much in a system would have a remote powerful enough (with macros and possibly Ir emitters) to control this extra video device.

I think the approach of the original 990 was pretty good. If it only adds $40 retail for a 4 to 1 HDMI 1.3b deep color 1080P 340 MHz switch, then you may as well. Otherwise, don't bother. I would never consider that the 990v2 should do any video processing.

I know I am ignoring component video, but maybe that could stay just as it is in the current 990, except with fewer standard def video inputs that would be converted to component. This is also how we get the setup menus for the 990.

If the 990v2 were custom designed for me, I would let my display device handle all video inputs, with the exception of multiple HDMI handled by the separate switch. The only video functionality the 990v2 would have would be the single HDMI pass through to extract sound.

In all my blathering, I didn't make my most important point:

I don't want all the gadgetry associated with video in my processor. I don't need a THX label. I don't need a pretty display because it sits in a closet. I want it to do one thing above all else - SOUND GREAT!

Within a retail price of $1500, give me the best audio I can get. Give me 24/192 processing with the best DACs that the price will afford. Give me extraordinary sound field processing. Give me the best analog parts (that make a discernible difference). While you're at it, throw in that parametric equalizer.

Sorry I got so worked up. I think I'll go walk the dog now, because I don't expect my processor to do it.

SoundOfMind raised some interesting points. I agree with some. For example I've never thought THX necessary or relevant. To me I think it's "hype".

Concerning video processing/switching: It's a nice convenience but to me it's not important. Sound is what counts for me. I can always get an outboard switccher if needed. Certainly many of us feed HDMI directly to the TV. HDMI for audio in is a necessary for the upcoming.

Concerning the paparemtric (or other) EQ: a nice idea, but I doubt that the pricepoint and direction for outlaw will likely make it inclusive. I wouldn't mind being wrong, however. To that end a processing loop or two would be nice and very inexpensive [if there is room on back panel]. Still, the EQ inserted between pre/pro and amp works well, and I think this must be the way yours is hooked-up. Mine is that way.

Though there has been forum discussion about deleting the composite and/or analog inputs and outputs I doubt (and hope) this will not happen. Having them is so helpful (and inexpensive) and many of us still use some of these. Only negative might be the real estate on the back panel, as other things are incorporated, i.e. not wanting the size to grow.

Concerning ZONE 2: for me this is such a big plus. In fact the wife was watching TV tonight, while I listened to a CD thru Zone 2 and my headphone circuit. I tried to HP jack and it works well, but kills the room audio. Additionally it limits the listener to dynamic phones. Now there's nothing wrong with those, but some us like our STAX electrostatic HPs.

Furthermore ZONE 2 gives me a feed thru to my DVD recorder for copying VHS and laserdiscs. I know I could use RECORD-OUT bus, but then I would have to have THAT program on. Zone 2 allows recording/copying while watching or listening to something else. If they want to transcode digital to analog that;s fine, but please let;s keep the analog, as they are so convenient.

Now here is something I would really like: While each channel can be trimmed/manipulated in the CHANNEL CALIBRATE screen it sure would be nice to have a front panel separate, indexed control for each. Still the volume control currently would be a master.

Just some ramblings from someone who feels audio is more important.

Since there is a metric crap load of settings for every channel from every input for every day of the week...

It would be nice to have some built in flash memory (or a usb port that can rear/write to a thumb drive) to store all these settings and have them recalled at will...

For when your experimentation goes awry or you need to do a hard reset...

Maybe even several 'slots' in which to store all these settings.

That is all.

monkeyplasm has a great suggestion. There is something that stores settings inside the box. While I don't know what it is or what the format storage is, I can't imagine a great added expense in providing access to this. Might need to be a separate USB "port".

Way back in the beginning of the thread we talked about coming out with a modular chassis ala Integra Research's RDC-7.1.

The idea for Outlaw would probably be a complete flop...Onkyo is discontinuing support for their modular chassis receivers and preamps. There will be no HDMI 1.3 upgrade path for those that own an RDC-7.1 or the two similar receivers that Onkyo sold.

Outlaw would have to use an OEM based modular chassis and hope that support for it remained for a length of time. Plus from a business standpoint it's just better to come out with new pieces every 2 to 3 years and have people replace them completely as opposed to have them spend a few hundred dollars here and there.

It seems like modularity would be a good marketing idea, but it certainly doesn't really allow for long term upgradeability. At least not that we've seen in the marketplace.

Oh and for all those that shelled out $4000 to $5000 on an RDC-7.1. Onkyo will allow you to trade it in for an Integra DTC-9.8 if you pay them $700.

OK so you give up a preamp that is worth ~$2000 used in base form (no additional modules) and have to pay $700 for a $1600 preamp?

What a joke.

The changes that we're seeing happen for HDMI v1.3 are so far-reaching that I'm not surprised at this. Oh, well...

I think "Dolby Volume" would be a nice feature as long as it can be turned on/off. Not sure if it will be commercially available by preamp release time? Upgrade at a later date?

http://www.audioholics.com/news/trade-sh...lume-technology

I would love to tame the erratic volume from commercials and channel surfing

I read a bit about Dolby Volume in the coverage of this year's CES, and I agree that it could be handy. It would certainly need to be a user-selectable feature, of course, and selectable on a per-input basis (use it for cable, satellite, or broadcast TV but not for music sources and possibly not for DVD or Blu-ray/HD-DVD sources). As of CES2008, I think that it was running on a modified Onkyo receiver, so I don't know if anybody is yet offering it in production hardware, but if it were available for inclusion it would be cool to have...

I pulled back my "latest," Pre-Pro and it has no composite or S-Video devices attached to it.

Making a unit without these out-dated connections would actually SAVE Outlaw some money that could be put towards something interesting.

By not having composite/S-Video "upconversion," they save even more money.

I'd do without them COMPLETELY.

Be the first company with only component and HDMI inputs. Make a statement.

Then sell a seperate "Composite, S-Video, Component," to HDMI converter box for the people that "have," to have this archeic technology.

This suggestion surfaces fairly regularly, and I agree that the time will come when we see composite and s-video go away. I don't know that Outlaw would be wise to be the ones to make a statement by omitting it, though - they are focused on the "bang for the buck" market, and as such are likely to continue to have a wide mix of customers and customer equipment.

My preference would be to see far fewer of these types of inputs along with more focus on HDMI and on flexibility in input configuration. This would allow those legacy devices to continue to survive while acknowledging the trend of more and more equipment moving to HDMI or at least component. As long as you have analog video of some sort present (which is still a necessity, I think, as component video's not ready to disappear just yet), you're going to need some sort of transcoding capability, so there's not likely to be a cost impact there.

Some of us who use HDMI also find it useful and necessary to have at least composite. I could do without S-Video. In order to not have to switch from the HDMI program to make adjustments on my 990 I have a compposite cheap monitor running.

Recording of material from satellite (composite outputs) requires a DVD recorder with composite input. Also the zone 2 functions require analog all the way.

A request to outlaw: Keep the nice cheap analogs.

A simple suggestion...please add "wireless" g/n capability so I can hook it in to my wireless network. That way the unit can upgrade itself overnight.

Marcus

That would be cool, but also means it would have to come out of sleep mode. Plus more software would need to be added. I have a G/N network that's WPA2 protected, but it's also behind a proxy firewall. Good suggestion nonetheless.

My PS3 and Mythbuntu box are both wireless. It's really nice to surf the web and upgrade them without dealing with a physical hookup via ethernet. Also would be sweet for net radio. Imagine being able to add your favorite net radio stations, slick.