Model 976 - myth or real?

Anyone know whether or when the 976 will be available? My 950 stopped working late last year and I've been waiting for the 976 release.

The update on January 24th said it would be available late spring. We were supposed to stand by for more updates in February but...NADA. They were in the process of beta testing so maybe something came out of that. Outlaw has been very tight lipped about these processors but the promised update is 3 weeks late at this point.

Please remember that today is the first day of Spring. Currently we are awaiting the HDMI certification. As soon as that is complete, before the end of the month, production will begin. Pending no final issues, everything is still on track for the Model 976 to be ready by the end of Spring.

XenonMan must be on an accelerated calendar

I was referring to the promised UPDATE which has arrived as of today.

What is involved in the certification process?

Do units have to be sent to every entity who's name ends up silk screened on the front panel? If so I could see certifications being a drawn out PITA.

Probably not for previously proven technology but for new items like Atmos and DTS/x or for some room correction systems it is likely a requirement that those systems get certed to perform the way they are supposed to. It should actually pretty straight forward as long as the tech is being used within the bounds of what it is intended for.

With only a few items to certify before production I wonder if Outlaw would release the 976 manual.

I'd guess not. If something ends up needing to be changed or if, for some reason, the certification should fail, they don't want to have copies with bad information floating around out there if it can be avoided. There may also be legal ramifications of releasing material claiming certifications you don't actually have yet.

Give us a manual with "DRAFT - Subject to Change", or something similar on all pages. (Preferably in the background like a watermark.) Easy to do in WORD and Acrobat - done it many times for preliminary document releases. If we are still 2 - 3 months from product release, give us Outlaw junkies something to muse over as we anticipate the big day and warm-up our Visa cards. OK - how about an update on the specs with details (i.e., the manual specs pages) and maybe a dozen Hi-Rez pics inside and out. Something? (Yes, as all good gear-heads young and old, we are exceedingly impatient.)

Some pix would be nice.

We've got nice front panel, back panel, interior and remote control photos.
I'd like to be the supplier of electrolytic caps to Outlaw's CEM!
Ben and Peter: have you heard of our embedded capacitance material?

Outlaws, no comments? No additional pictures or specs? Does that mean the 976 release in close at hand?

Well, they said Spring and we're only like two weeks in right now. They still have another ten weeks to meet the stated target. Put on the brakes there, pardner!

What you said Owl's Warder.

For all of the Outlaw ball breaking that has gone on for the past couple of years I get Peter being tight lipped.

We know the 976 exists so chill out and let the Outlaws do what they do best.

Anyone other than me happen to notice a pre/pro recently mentioned on these forums included 10 band PEQ?

Everything old is new again.

The 975 came out in 2012. That's over four years ago. About 18 quarters ago. So, if by "close at hand", you mean "within 10% of the time since the last release", yes, I'd bet it's close at hand.

I'm anticipating it, and have postponed a purchase for this purpose. But it's a long time to actually literally hold your breath. How close is "close at hand" for you? If you knew your life would cease in four months, would that feel "close at hand"?

If we can't get the 976 manual that hopefully describes how to best implement the 10 band PEQ maybe someone can post their experience using a PEQ in other products or a good link on how to take advantage of this feature.

Well, there is this thread over in the Tips, Tweaks and Tricks forum already discussing this. Seeing as you've posted a few times in that thread, you seem to already be aware of it, though. I think the bottom line is that at this point we just have to pull back on the reins a little and wait it out for specific details.

Yo!!! Ben! Pushing the second week of June and summer starts in a few weeks - give us some word. Manual? Beta copy manual with the caveats -- anything? Did something pop-up that will take another 3 to 6 months (e.g., not previously discovered bugs in the DSP chips decoder codes -- something? We know you guys are cranking, but are we going to see the 976 before Fall?

I'm gonna be in the market for a pre/pro in the next 3 months or so. I am between the model 976 and the MC-700. If one is available then and one isn't I will only have one choice.

I'm sure it'll happen just like they did with the Ultra X-13. Once it's ready to go we're going to get the release statement, the product page will go live, and it'll show up in the shop for purchase. I also think it will likely replace the 975's prominent ad position on the front page of the site. Stop sharpening the pitchforks and put out the torches; there's still a couple of weeks before spring is over!

OK guys I know this is the Outlaw forum, but how would you say the Model 976 and Emotiva MC700 stack up against each other on paper?

Not much paper to base an opinion on for now. If past performance holds true, I suspect the 976 will be a better piece than the MC-700. When the 975 came out I ordered both the 975 and UMC-200 to do an in-home comparison. The 975 had *much* better audio quality than the UMC-200 even after turning off the EQ in the UMC-200. In my experience Outlaw's focus has always been audio quality first.

The MC-700 has a nice feature set for the price, but I am willing to wait for the 976. One feature of the 976 I like is a full set of balanced outputs since my amps have balanced inputs. Just the inside pictures of the two show a markedly different approach. The 976 appears to have much more substantial power supplies than the MC-700 (much like 975 vs. UMC-200). Separating the power supplies for the digital and analog sections usually improves the sound. Also higher end pre/pros generally have more larger power supplies.

Audio quality means a lot to me as as I use my system for both stereo audio and HT.

Just my opinion based on past experience. We shall see when 976 is finally released how it fares.

Owl, trouble is when we base holding off a needed purchase on their planned date. They're well past the average Spring date. If they're still going to make Spring, it would take seconds to tell us that. If they're going to miss it by a few weeks, they should let us know that also so we can go with other plans.

Outlaw will not comment on whether they are going to be late or not. Spring is over in two weeks or so and at that point I suspect that there will be some comments.

That all makes a lot of sense and I actually agree. To my untrained eyes the MC-700 looks very empty inside and the 976 looks filled with all sorts of electronics. Of course there is a 300 dollar difference in price as well. We'll see, I'll wait to see both. Problem is, is this 976 ever going to actually come out?

Ya know what I kinda made up my mind to go with the 976. I'm not buying until November anyway. I'm sure it'll be out by then, professional reviews, and owner reviews out by then too. It really looks like a beast of a preamp/processor based on specs on paper.

Fellow Outlaws:

We know that you are anxious to get your hands on the forthcoming Model 976, and we are just as anxious to get it to you.

That said, given the date, it is obvious that it will ship a bit later than we had hoped. There is a continual battle to find the balance between pre-announcing new products, as we did for the Model 976 versus waiting to announce them until the are ready to ship, as we did with the RR 2160 and Ultra X13. Regardless, whenever we announce a new product it is very important to us that any new product ships only when it is ready, not before. We're not quite at that point yet for the Model 976

It's been said that it's "The first 99% is easy. It's the last 1% that is the hardest." That is a good summary of where we are. We have units under test that are completely functional and which deliver outstanding audio and video performance. We've completed work with Room EQ Wizard that is optimized for the Model 976. We have the parts staged and ready for production start. That's the "99%".

Unfortunately, there is that remaining 1%. There are a few remaining issues that have cropped up that we are simply not comfortable having in a production product. None, by themselves, are fatal. However, collectively they would prevent the Model 976 from meeting our expectations. Yes, it will take until after our goal of "before the end of spring" to work all of this out. Since some of these things are interdependent it is to say how long it will take, but it shouldn't be that long.

Again, thanks for your support, patience and understanding as we work to bring you the product you expect and deserve.

I know that I for one will continue to wait.
I have been tempted many times to throw in the towel and order the Emotiva XMC-1 but I have resisted and will continue to do so.
But if nothing has been released by the end of summer then I will have to move on I guess.

I'm waiting, no problem for me. I'm not buying till late November, its gonna be my Christmas gift. This is the processor I want.

I have no problem waiting, either. I've recently learned that it's time to "just update the kitchen and that whole area" around our house so there goes my potential disposable income for the foreseeable future. Goodbye new processor, hello painting, flooring, and new appliances! Ah well, it's not like I don't use those things, too.

Hopefully next year I can swing something! I was really hoping to get it in this year and make the most of potential resale value with the 975.

Edit:
By the way, thank you Outlaw Admin for the update!

Thanks for the update, Admin. I'm waiting patiently as you slog through that last 1%.

It is my understanding the certification process can be a royal pain in the rear and can take months to complete even when things go well.

Outlaw wants to come to market just as badly as everyone else.

Looking forward to the 976. I am an orginal Outlaw 950 owner and it was a good prepro for me at that time. I feel like the 976 will be worth the wait. I wish I could have Atmos in my apt. but I can't put in inceiling speakers of course so the 976 should work fine for me.

a choice of one is not a choice. It's a default.

Be patient. I'm confident the 976 is worth it. I was in heaven w/ the 975's SQ from a Rotel - still am!

Oh yeah I'm not going any where. I'm firmly in the 976 camp now. I'll be ordering one in late November, early December as my Christmas gift. I can't wait!

Hi all,
Peter Tribeman demoed the 976 for me the other week (the new re-mastered Sgt. Pepper album and other goodies)and it is almost ready to be released in the wild. It looks as good as it sounded and I hope to have my hands on one for a SECRETS of Home Theater and HiFi review before long.

It will be worth the wait! Hang tight...Peter is meticulous and will not let it go until it's well nigh perfect.

So it sounds like it will be worth the wait!!!!!

Gotta call it: "Myth." Certainly missed Spring, but it's also been a long time since any status at all.

I bought an alternative yesterday.

what did you buy?

The recent review by Jim Milton of the RR2160 in Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity clearly references the 976 -- http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/recei...eceiver-review/


Impatient folks can criticize the way that estimates of shipping dates are made but the fact is in today's consumer electronics marketplace it is increasingly common to have deal with production glitches. Even multi-billion dollar firms can't avoid -- https://www.macrumors.com/2017/08/01/apple-still-unable-to-meet-airpods-demand/
AND
https://www.androidcentral.com/editors-desk-google-horrible-supply-chains

If two of the most well funded firms ON THIS PLANET have issues I am willing to cut Outlaw, which even in the most generous estimate has a value orders of magnitude smaller, a whole lot of slack...

I agree with everything you said, but I also don't fault anyone for moving on at this point either. I am not buying till December as a Christmas gift to me, but if it ain't out by then, it probably ain't coming out at all. Only time will tell.

ditto

Yep. It sounds to me like it's very close to being released. I'm lucky in that I'm not really in the market, just keenly interested in seeing how well it's received on release. I might be tempted to upgrade if it ticks off enough boxes.

Wow, poseur much? It's not impatient to give up when they're this late and haven't been updating status... and when you're waiting to actually build the system.

For some context, the 976 was announced on 01/24/17. Try holding your breath for more than seven months, with no recent updates!

TCat, Since then we have talked about the unit a couple times. One update can even be seen on page 3 of this thread, dated June '17:

Thanks, Ben. Saved me from having to look that post up! That post and the more recent comment in the RR2160 review are the two biggest reasons I feel it's almost here.

Nobody faults you for pulling the trigger on something else, TCat. When you're ready, of course you're going to buy what's available. However, saying there've been no recent updates is not accurate.

On a side note, can we maintain some civility up in here? There's really no need for name calling.

Getting it correct right out of the gate is the most important thing.

I'm planning to get a 976 in December as I have said. Right now I'm using my older Yamaha receiver as the processor to control my Parasound amp. How much difference in sound quality will it be going to a dedicated HT processor over a receiver? I can't wait to see and read reviews of the model 976.

Depending on the vintage of your Yamaha and its abilities to translate codecs it could be a very noticeable difference.

My first Outlaw was the 970/7075 combo replacing a Yamaha HTR-5150. Granted the 5150 is at best middle of the road SQ but there was a noticeable improvement going to the 970 and THEN another noticeable improvement moving from the 970 to the 975. I would suspect the 976 would be even better than the 975. (at least 1 better, right?)

There have been rapid shifts in the some of the things that AV receivers do and the biggest driver of that shift is the increasingly complex encoding that have been adopted to make movies more immersive. That means that systems that were not capable of decoding discrete 5.1 sound tracks have been left in the dust compared those that do. The evolution of 7.1 and now object oriented sound tracks are further big advances.

The other factor is that the Digital-to-Analog chipsets evolve at about the pace of other computer technology -- that means not just better resolution of higher bit rate audio but improvements to things like the overall signal-to-noise levels, greatly enhanced resistance to artifacts of the digital conversion, and more features at lower prices. Those features and dropping prices makes it easy to incorporate things that once exotic like parametric eq. and similar enhancements.

Meanwhile the other things that receivers do, like tuning into broadcasts / internet sources, switching various components and providing amplification to drive speakers, has not really evolved nearly so much -- the start of the art for amplification arguably remains high current balanced designed like those offered by Outlaw and other firms. I know all about the topologies that are possible http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/amplifier-classes but the fact is for lots of reasons the differential drive amplifiers are hard to beat -- http://www.ati-amp.com/differential_drive_amplifier.php
You can argue that some streaming sources have proven to be more responsive to offering high bit rate content, but given how many people are attached to vinyl or CDs that is not a particularly compelling reason to upgrade.
The last part of the function of AV receivers, as relates to component switching, was once mundane but now complicated by things like the shifting standards for HDMI 2.#x and associated HDCP x.x and the associated headaches of 4k scaling / pass-thru. If I had to lay money on what "final tweaks" are giving the Outlaw team the most trouble it is almost certainly in that realm...

All that aside, the decision to "go with separates" is less about the dollars and cents of TODAY than the longer term satisfaction and flexibility -- for folks that will likely never care about swapping out any of their existing components it might not make sense to fret about the differences between separates and a receiver. For nearly everybody else, who likely will swap out amps, or displays, or speakers, or sources or perhaps even create multiple entertainment zones in their home the value of separates is much clearer -- you simply have more choices. Together with the boost to performance that one gets as the codecs and DAC advance as well as just the "Christmas morning" effect that many of us appreciate from upgrading the pluses of separates don't really need further justification.

Its a 10 year old RX-V663. I think it'll be a very noticeable difference. It decodes DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD so I really don't need much beyond that. Its does DD plus also.
I LOVE my Parasound amp man, that thing is clean, dynamic power for days!

Maintain the status quo until the 976 is out and has some reviews then decide.

Talk to me, babe. That was three months ago. At which point we were pointing out that you were missing the Spring date you announced in, what, January?

Let's try to be honest... it's been over eight months since you announced this, and you haven't been transparent on when it will be done. Sure, you've got the penniless white-knight fanboys who buy one item every 15 years and yet will defend you to with invective... but for those of us with actual coin, you aren't helping with the opacity.

I have moved on. But if you hurry or can actually be open about the status, I can pivot. Seriously though, you've got to learn what "lost opportunity cost" is. Basically, if monthly you can only produce X number of widget Y (in this case, 976), and you can sell your entire production each month regardless of glitches, there's zero benefit in delaying. If demand and glitchiness are more elastic, the equation is more complex up until you reach the point where your excess production capacity costs you too much.

You guys seem to be on the wrong side of this. Emotiva and Onkyo have proven it can have some bugs but be better than the competition and sell well... and you can fix the glitches in software, garnering even better "word" and status (especially if you used FPGAs, please tell me your team spent that extra $20 and used FPGAs!) despite the bizarre fact that these newly-renewed fanatics received slightly sub-par software.

This should be novel. Get it out or at least be transparent. This isn't how you make money.

Geez, you would have been apoplectic if you'd been around for the previous Outlaw pre/pro efforts! But in an earlier post you said you'd moved on and bought something else. I hope you are happy with your recent purchase.

Probably, which might explain their financial performance. I did say that, even in the above post... not sure how you missed it - first sentence of Paragraph 3. And I am decently happy... better form factor and more features at 2/3 the price of a 976/5000 combo... but I do suspect the 5000 would sound better. Everything is a compromise. Jobs, marriage, sound systems... everything.

"Talk to me, babe... Emotiva and Onkyo have proven it can have some bugs but be better than the competition and sell well..."
I, for one, don't want to be on the wrong side of a beta test with my purchase. I've had the 975 for quite some time now, three+ years, and its not given me many problems. Yes, the occasional times when I have to use a deoxidizing cleaner on the HDMI jacks, but that's a given with HDMI jacks.
When the 976 does come out, I want it to be in my system for at least as long, with no aggravating issues to put up with, other than the occasional HDMI jack cleaning.

Peter Tribeman has a pretty impressive record of longevity and independence. If others want to offer advice I'd hope they could back that up with their own credentials. For that matter, if I was comparing the relative relationships that Chief Outlaw Peter Tribeman has been able to foster, vs those of Emotiva's top guy, Dan Laufman, there is little doubt who is more widely admired... It is not that Emotiva is not a worthy firm to consider, but Laufman's efforts to control Sherbourne and Carver have both been rather less than successful...

Don't get me wrong, with Pioneer having to sell out to Onkyo and even Harman taking a huge buy-out from Samsung the world of AV is facing, "interesting times", but Outlaw's leadership has a darned enviable place. The difference between firms that walk the tight rope between success and failure often comes down to the little things and Outlaw has proven over and over that they get the little things right.

TCat, your last couple of posts are a light version of the type of backlash Outlaw used to get several years back and are the exact reason they hold things close to the vest now. There was a time when they shared the transparency you're demanding but when things beyond their control caused timetables or availability to change, people lost their minds and exploded onto the forum boards. It wasn't pretty and no amount of explanation was ever good enough for them. Hence, the Outlaws stopped being so open about what they have cooking and how close it is to being ready to serve.

Given that history, the fact they pointed to spring means they had every expectation of providing it then and things beyond their control prevented it. I guarantee you they're doing all they can to finish it up as nobody wants it moving out the door more than they do.

On a personal note, it'd be great if you could please maintain civility and stop with the name calling. These forums are generally a nice place to visit and disparaging comments don't add anything to the discussion. There's a great group of people on here that are pleasant and helpful, there isn't any call for insulting us. In my eyes (I won't speak for anyone else), it just makes you look like a bully throwing a tantrum and completely detracts from anything positive that you might want to contribute. Thanks!

Wow can we take it down a notch? We are arguing over a Home Theater processor and south Texas had a hurricane come through. I wish the 976 was out already, but lets not lose it over this. It'll be out, it'll be great with no bugs.

Plus, Oregon is on fire!

I say again this and what follows. "Patience is a virtue." A little history:

In the early '90s stared w/Carver. Upgraded to HK, pure analogue. Then, I believe, a BIG step up to Rotel - 900 series gear.

Later upgraded to newer non-HDMI Rotel 10 series 1068. Similar sound character, purportedly $1600 new. When, like the 900 series gear, channels started dying, I started researching a replacement.

Stumbled accross Outlaw. New, under $600 shipped. Hmmm. Raving positive expert reviews from 3 sources.

Seems ANY used, much less new* HDM-friendly Rotel is a little to a lot more. Rotel purported** to be entry level "high end" yet w/ a negative history of mild to wild HDMI issues that the "Rotel Loyal" is willing to tolerate.
* $3000!! ** read reviews comparing them to Krell, Levinson, etc

No brainer guys. I've enjoyed what I believe is much better SQ, flawless, albiet kinda slow switching, HDMI reliability over the current Rotel offerings at a fraction of the $!! As far as I'm concerned the new models (976* for me*) will get here when they get here and well worth the wait.
* I believe these 10 & 11 channel systems, while WOWing I'm sure, will have a very low WAF and will go the way of 3D. They are for privledged few that can swing dedicated space for them.

So hang in there.

Hey Everyone,

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I wonder if the 976 or the Atmos processors will have the new LCD display like the 2160 has. I know it's a small deal, but I think it would be a nice touch.

The announcement photos had the same display type as the 975, but I'm hoping the Outlaws will surprise us with an updated display. Then again, it might add some cost to the unit, so it might not be worth it...

+1 what Owls_Warder wrote on 9/1 @ 1:28pm.

And I agree with 975 destroyer on this: "I believe these 10 & 11 channel systems, while WOWing I'm sure, will have a very low WAF and will go the way of 3D."

Trouble is, best WAF I've run into ever was a sound bar. My massive towers with amps and boxes were second though, not because of discretion but because I put them in an impressive stack along with a Buttkicker amp and huge transducers in the sofa and under the floor... and she got addicted to showing it off. No kidding, the first time she really felt them, she said, "Wow! I wonder how these would feel with a movie that goes Bwam shakka wah wah!" We never watched those kind of movies.

There is certainly an evolving appreciation for the value, in every sense of the word, for more advanced sound tracks. In my own home the decision to upgrade the system that is most frequently used adjacent to our kitchen was driven by appreciation for the impact of what was in the "man cave". My wife is not really a "tech head" but she appreciates that listening to even more "family entertainment" type movies like the Harry Potter / Fantastic Beasts is more engrossing with immersive sound than getting by with the flat panel built in tiny speakers or even a sound bar. While we choose a combination of in-ceiling and surface mount speakers that had much to do with not wanting speaker cables lying about for pets or guests to trip over.

I suspect that the kinds of decorating that is more common these days is also a factor in what sorts of designs are offered from the nicer speaker firms -- the footprints and range of colors is such that folks need not worry about anything being overly intrusive.

I'd also suggest that with the explosion of things like Soul Cycle and other work-outs where music at a high volume is part of the experience there has been a shift in what is culturally acceptable -- it is not just freaks that wanna "hang out with the band" but a more gender balanced fan base for even the loudest music. The mix of consumers, from across all incomes / genders, who've come to understand that tiny little speakers connected to even the nicest cell phone are not as capable of good sound as something with more volume is shifting the "acceptance factor".

Of course there are other issues that also need to be considered -- people are generally renting longer in more areas, which makes in-wall/ceiling gear a harder sell. The average amount of space devoted to the TV itself has gone up quite a bit, with 50" now on the small side of things -- that leaves less floor space for tower or stand mounted bookshelf speakers (though either set-up can have very nice Atmos experience, that also typically means cable management issues...). More parents seem to worry about that sort of thing than anything else...

" Bwam shakka wah wah"
Now that begs for a detailed explanation ;-)

Just bought a new Sony 930E 4k TV and really really want to hook it up to the Outlaw 976 for 4k thru put. Is the 976 happening this year? Does anyone have a gut feel or inside info on this? The waiting is so hard.

At this point, I'd say they're targeting the holiday shopping season. Unfortunately, we don't know what that last 1% is that's holding up release so it's really anybody's guess.

I would love to have a 9 or 11 channel system with Atmos but it is just not practical for me being in a one bedroom apt. That is why I am so interested in the 976. It would suit my needs for now. By the way, I do have quite a number of 3D blurays and I continue to buy them whenever I can. I hope they don't go away completely. The last 3D bluray I bought was Passengers and it looks fantastic on my LG Oled. The 4K looks very nice as well. Here's hoping the 976 will be out by the end of the year. I know Outlaw wants to release a quality product.

Yeah. Easter.

So this has me curious... how much power are you going to pump in that apartment? I have a decently large space and rather inefficient bipolar towers, so I was waiting (gave up) for the gobs of clean power from the 5000, but in a smaller space, wouldn't a Marantz NR1508 be a better choice? It's small, has sufficient clean power for that space, and since you won't be pushing its limits, the integrated amp should be indiscernable, no? Or is your experience different?

So this has me curious... how much power are you going to pump in that apartment?

I don't need anymore than what I have already which is an Emotiva A700 amp. My living room is between 1500 and 2000cft and that amp is plenty for me but I don't usually play movies at reference level. Just a level that is comfortable for me.

There is more to be gained from having plenty of headroom with modestly sized speakers in a normal sized room than most folks realize -- http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/headroom/headroom.html

I agree with 975 destroyer that the 9.x and 11.x setups will be similar to 3D. They will suck a lot of $$$ but the effects will be just a passing fad. The studios will make more $$$ when they convert the older movies to object oriented formats and sell them yet again. The manufacturers obviously make more $$$ when they offer the latest and greatest gizmos to take advantage of all the new tech. Look at how the Beatles music has been repackaged and resold to the public over and over again. Many of the 70s and 80s bands are re-racking their music to pull even more $$$ out of our pockets. This all techno-wizardry and really is just a marketing ploy.

Its been a while again, any news from the outlaw world on the 976?

@J.H., you do realize it's been eleven days since the last post and EIGHT months since the announcement. If you care WHEN it will happen, it's not worth it. Either you're a member of Outlaws-Forever, in which case you'll wait, or you have a life. But you can only pick one.

What?

Well with that attitude, goodbye Outlaw 976. I'm gonna upgrade all my speakers now. Good job with that post. I will not be buying this processor now.

Waiting forever for a new processor from outlaw is what makes you a member of Outlaws-Forever, I guess. Way back before the 975 was offered there was a series of Outlaw processors that were on the drawing board but never made it to the street. The 997/998/978 were a little ambitious at the time and technology was moving too fast for the little guys to keep up. Peter has tried to keep the Outlaws in the loop as to progress and problems but it is a cut throat industry where even the bigger companies are being swallowed whole by competition. Small companies have to rely on loyalty and excellent customer service to stay in business.

Explain to me in a way I'll understand: upgrading speakers [to/from what] instead of buying 976.
what are you looking* at instead*?

Well if you have A-holes on here with attitude that guy had, forget it. Instead of spending my money on the 976, I'll upgrade my speakers instead. I'll just keep the Yamaha I'm using for a processor longer and they can keep the 976. I'll start my speaker upgrade with 900 bucks saved on the processor. They just lost a sale because of the "outlaws-forever" club that I wasn't invited into. And no I have no intention of joining any way. I wasn't looking at any other processor.

Sheesh...

The pace of change for audio gear is NOT linear -- there are LOTS of really excellent speakers that were made when Bill Clinton was in office, no matter if you goal is two channel or seven ++ channels of surround sound well cared for speakers from the 1990s or earlier that might work extremely well...

Amps have evolved a bit, with a variety of things to increase the dynamic range, drop the noise floor to absurdly low levels and deliver lots more "watts per dollar". A small number of really well built amps that maybe 30 years old can still crank it out, but most folks are better off with amps that won't throw off enough heat to melt an iceberg...

When it comes to pre-processors for home theaters I suppose there are some folks trying to get by with stuff that does not have current HDMI or HDCP but they are really limiting themselves. The newer codecs that include things that are much more immersive make "movie night" at home rival some poorly laid out commercial theaters. You don't need to have a mansion with butlers to appreciate things like the ability to play music from a personal device like a phone on a multi-zone home system with maybe some speakers permanently wired up for outdoor entertaining area or one's kitchen, where many gatherings both casual and more formal are centered these days...

It is no secret that with things like Atmos there is now greater than ever importance on having similarly voiced speakers. The challenges of upgrading speakers piecemeal can have less than optimal results -- even with the most sophisticated ARC system the "match" than can happen after digital filters is rarely as satisfying as when starting out with speakers that are harmonious.

For folks who for whatever reason are in currently in need of gear the Outlaws are authorized sellers of Marantz -- the pricing on the 7703 is quite attractive either standalone or paired with any combination of robust Outlaw amps designed and / or built in cooperation with the highly respected staff of ATI.

Please don't let TCat get under your skin. He's a new forum member that just joined in March. He's only got 14 posts and most of them are either trolling or bashing other forum members. I've called him out for his aggressive posts a couple of times because that's not the community we have here, nor is it the one we want to foster. The club he mentions isn't a real thing; it's his way of slighting members willing to wait for Outlaw's processor. Those of us that have used their products in the past are pretty loyal as the price to performance ratio is incredible. I am guessing he hasn't had that experience yet so doesn't understand our mind set.

You've been a forum member for a long time, J.H. I'm sure you have noticed that the vast majority of us are happy to help and are very friendly! We're doing our best to keep it that way!

Well if he is an annoying troll, he should be kicked out.

Annoying... to some. Troll, no.

I do understand the acoustic benefits, but the company's lack of updates and wildly-incorrect release dates were extremely frustrating to me. And the response to that, here, was generally in the "White Knight" form of "You just don't understand", rather than of "Hmm... yeah, that is pretty bad, what's with that?" or similar.
Owl is correct; I was using the term "club" in the same way I used "White Knight" a few sentences ago... I'm not aware of any blessings and bestowing of swords. My point was this...

Read the entire thread, along with the 976 Anticipation Thread. All of each. The statement in January was "Spring 2017", which initially people (perhaps optimistically) expected to be in middish-Spring.

It's now Autumn. Summer is gone. And there hasn't been much status or updates. Yes, a dribble of perhaps two messages. But nearly nothing. Meanwhile, not Outlaw's problem, but for example, I actually moved in March. So for me "Spring" was a relevant timeframe; waiting through June knowing an end is in-sight is radically different than, more than six months later, still having vague, but unmet, promises.

Now, back to the diehard-loyalist (for which internet shorthand is "fanboy", but to sound more respectful I'll avoid the diminutive) responses, versus, for example, a disappointed and therefore annoyed consumer who was actually waiting to spend the money...
The dominant one was, "This happens all the time in the electronics industry."
I've spent most of my life in that and related fields. No, no it does't. But here's a similar example.
Anova is the dominant start-up sous vide company. Sansaire actually sort-of innovated first, but Anova was almost immediately right there, and kept improving while Sansaire didn't.
In June 2017, Anova started pre-selling the Nano cooker... much like a self-run kickstarter. Pre-orders were expected to begin shipping in October. Last week I received an email that it wouldn't ship this year, with three options, including one of switching to their current flagship model, which is a $30 discount from what Amazon charges and about $60 off their MSRP.
There is a difference, of course. Anova took money. But there's another difference... they did this well before October started. Outlaw updated us well after Spring ended. And then hasn't kept us updated.

If Outlaw really has no idea whether the 976 will ship in a week or in three months, it's hard to put faith in them. If, in May, they had no idea that they were at least two months from shipping, well, ditto. Regular updates wouldn't kill them, and might have kept the excitement alive, but more importantly, I could have time-budgeted and, for example, purchased a cheap throw-away Denon receiver for a few months while waiting. As it is, anyone who has faith that the 976 will ship in, say, six weeks either has inside information or perhaps should speak to a professional... in a non-electronics field.

Should you wait? Hey, I still believe the product will be amazing. If you don't need it, but merely want it, sure. And since you've mentioned repeatedly that you won't buy it, regardless, until near Christmas-time, you already are committed to waiting at least another several months. Heck yeah, get the best unit out then, and if the 976 is out, I'm sure it will spank the Emotiva.

You also, BTW, said six weeks ago... " I believe it will be out very soon." The question is... do you still believe that?

When this processor hits the market, and after some reviews and customer comments, I'll probably pick one up. I just hope that it sounds good enough to put my current processor into retirement. After having spent a few months with the 950, there were a few quirks that I hope get changed with the 976. First and foremost for me is input control and display. I hope that the 976 has the ability to rename inputs via the setup menu and have it displayed in the front window.

If there's to be beta testing, I'd be willing to take part. Bottom line, I can wait.

I wonder if Outlaw is working on their upcoming object based prepro at the same time they are working on the 976. I previously mentioned that the 976 would be the one for me since I saw no way I could do Atmos(using on or in-ceiling speakers) in my apartment, but I am now thinking about waiting on their Atmos prepro because I ordered some Atmos enabled speakers that I am going to try out next weekend. If I have success with them, then I may just wait on the Outlaw object based prepro or even consider the Marantz AV7703 which Outlaw is selling. If I don't have success with the Atmos enabled speakers then the 976 would be my choice.

That makes lots of sense. Fact is there are some very nice up-firing Atmos speakers as well as add-ons (including a pair from Atlantic Technology...) that are absolutely perfect for many apartment dwellers. Folks should not have any reluctance about using up-firing Atmos speakers in situations where they are appropriate -- that generally covers homes and apartments with normal ceiling height & construction where the up-firing speakers can be placed atop floor standers / bookshelf units on stands...

I suspect that much of the tech for the 976 is similar to the design for the "object pre-pro" but the Outlaws have enough experience to hold their cards close to the vest when it comes to specific manufacturing details, as prior efforts have steps on too many toes...

Thanks for a thoughtful post, TCat! It's nice to finally see where your frustrations are coming from. I can certainly understand, given your situation, why you're dismayed by the lack of communication from the Outlaws.

As I (and others) have mentioned before, there was a time when they were much more open about what was happening and what they anticipated for release schedules. However, after one particularly nasty bout of problems caused a previous processor to be delayed a few times and then scrapped, the ensuing backlash caused them to change to a much more closed off approach. If you look at their product announcements and releases since that time, they have been pretty much right on. They announce, provide a date within a couple months, and then start shipping on time. The fact that the 976 hasn't met this pattern suggests to me that there is a completely unforeseen issue that has cropped up.

Now to take your position, yes, I agree it'd be awesome if they'd fill us in on what that delay is, or at least when it will be resolved. They seem to still be a bit gun shy, though and having been around for that fallout, I can't really say I blame them. Personally, I think they swung too far back on the pendulum from transparent all the way to brick wall. It'd be nice if they can find a middle ground that we can all live with, maybe a nice wooden fence with some missing knotholes we can peek through to see inside the corral.

All of that said, I understand where they're coming from and know that this is the way they operate. I accept the situation and my expectations are tempered accordingly. I freely acknowledge that's easy for me to do since I'm watching from an interested position vs. a need position, though.

+1 Yes, the Outlaws are gun-shy after the bashing received from missing out on the 978 (?). They were bullied out of their China outsource mfgr by a much larger company that also was developing pre/pros. After missing Estimated ship dates (which fans self-interpreted as Promised ship dates)and then having to cancel the product, the backlash Owl's_Warder alludes to was stinging. And, as has been pointed out repeatedly, The Outlaws care about customer loyalty, trust and service, so they "...swung too far back on the pendulum..."

Outlaws: time for beta testing?

I don't have a lot of confidence about this processor ever coming to the market after reading the 4 or 5 posts.

I'm of the impression that beta testing was already done? When they announced a spring ship, I figured they were just implementing the fixes on things that showed up in beta and maybe ironing out any last minute licensing issues. Given that the product was much closer to market than the scrapped pre/pro, I'm confident the 976 is going to come out, J.H. I'm hopeful for the holiday season but only the Outlaws know for sure.

tick - tock -- tick -- tock -- tick tock -- and the faithful wait -- yes we wait

Thanks for your input on this subject. I am really excited about getting Atmos to work for me but not getting my hopes up too much. I have a rather small living room(13.5 x 14ft) with a standard 8ft flat ceiling. It would really be cool if the Outlaw object based prepro had a room correction system included. It will be hard to give up Audyssey in my Marantz but at least the Outlaw will have a PEQ with it.

I was trying to find a post about the pre-pro being 99% done some time ago, with just that pesky 1% left to hurdle, but I'm having trouble locating it. and please don't tell me its an earlier post in this thread.:)
Anyway I'm still hopefully waiting. My 975 is still going well, but I need to set up my system for full 4k. Don't think I'll be doing immersive, but I won't say never.

Yup, earlier in this thread. Should have looked here first.

Would you want pork or chicken before (160-165 internal temp) it was ready? The finishing touches on a sub or RR2260 pale next to getting ALL of an AVR's or prepro's DSP bug-free.

Hang in there, the "Destroyer"

False choices. You have more choices.

Would you want raw chicken or a 5 Guys (or Shake Shack) Burger? Sheesh, go with the burger.
BTW, you don't need that internal temperature. Sous Vide can give you better food at lower temperatures... but you hold it there longer. Like smoking.
Trouble here is, it's not "poisonous meat or not". We have choices:

• Wait an indeterminate amount of time for something already way overdue, that may or may not ever come out.
• Get a nearly-identical, possibly buggy version at a lot less money from a competitor
• Buy a decent receiver and get more functionality, perhaps with less fidelity but close enough that nearly nobody can tell, for a lot less money
• Buy said receiver and, eventually, upgrade to an Outlaw amp while using said receiver's pre-outs

The only choice that will kill you is to eat the raw 976.

I'm waiting for the 976, as I've said, my 975 is still working great and I'm not the type to upgrade every two or three years. So, when it does hit the market, hopefully for this holiday season, it will have been about four years with my current processor. Plus, I recently bought a 4k TV and want to get my whole system into the 4k scene.

I don't want any "buggy version" for a processor. I want it to work great right out of the box. I really don't want to be behind my system when I can be in front of it, entertained.

I don't want an AVR. I switched to separates a while back and have enjoyed the night and day difference in SQ.

I already have an amp. So, for me, my only choice is that I'm content to wait for now. I believe them when they said only the 1% left to hurdle. Probably something they couldn't foresee when they made the announcements earlier this year.

Truthfully Helson I think the 1% was fully foreseeable to the Outlaws. The big three in the processor market do incremental changes which might make the process easier.

From the 975 to the 976 is a big jump when one considers the dacs and decoding involved.

As I have no rush to jump to 4K my 975 still works for me. Add in the White Instruments paramedic eq's I am already on board with what the 976 has to offer.

We know the 976 exists in the wild but without the certifications it is pointless for the Outlaws to market. I could not possibly care less about video processing preferring straight pass through in that regard. Audio is everything to us.

I, for one, would like to see the 976 hit the street just to get the threads back on the positive side. While I am disappointed in the lateness of it, I fully expect Outlaw to release it before the end of the year. If anyone NEEDS a new processor right now because of some perceived flaw in their system, go for it. There are plenty of solutions out there to temporarily get you the new codecs without getting a new processor.

Much of the time, when you're debugging, solving one problem can lead to two more popping up. So, that's why I think they didn't foresee...
From the 975 to the 976...the 975 can handle lossless formats like Dolby True HD and DTS HDMA. I would think the bigger difference between the two would be the HDCP 2.2 from 2.0. But, that should have been resolved long ago.

Oh snap! The 976 has it's own forum now! I feel a release date announcement coming!

Grrrreat!

Please see this post regarding an update on the 976 status.

Awesome news! I'm looking forward to hearing how people like it! I'm still trying to decide if I "need" to upgrade my 975 and whether or not to wait and go for the flagship model.

Right on time!

My guess was holiday availability. Hope for no production snafu's.

Fingers crossed......

Well, well, well. I have been skeptical to cautiously optimistic regarding the 976 and this is very exciting news. I've got a green light to spend a bunch of money from the household budget to upgrade the family HT. That includes a new TV/monitor (55" or maybe a 65" LG OLED), new BluRay player (OPPO UDP-203), new Apple TV, a new Harmony remote, ISF calibration of the new TV and lastly the 976. All this hinges on the availability of the 976. I think I am going to begin studying the REW guide with the hope the 976 manual thoroughly describes how to use REW to optimize the 976.

BTW, I read on DIYAUDIO that there's a new REW version and supposedly much improved.

I can't wait for the pre-order link to show up!

Wow getting close. I was dead set on getting one, but I'm kinda thinking of starting to upgrade my speakers from Def Tech to Ascend Acoustics. That has NOTHING to do with the delay. I wasn't buying till December anyway. Just something I got in my head to upgrade speakers to much more high end. What to do?

Always hard to assess what expenditure is the “next logical step” for an AV system...
Definitive Technology has several tiers of speakers at different price points, several of which would be extremely hard to say are “inferior” to similarly priced options from companies like Ascend Acoustics...

Depending upon current rcvr or prepro & amp the 976 and appropriate Outlaw amp might be more of a “step-up”...

I would be sure to audition any new speakers against the old reliables unless there is something mechanically wrong with the current setup. While many AV fans are convinced that a new amp or pre-pro will improve the sound it is much more likely that speakers will change the way your system sounds to a much larger degree. As long as the amp has enough oomph to get the speakers to nirvana levels all else being equal the rest is ones and zeros. The source material also has some effects especially in the analog domain. I have always considered that new processors are only needed if some functionality is gained that cannot be ignored and is must have. All things considered, spend the most money getting the best speakers you can afford and an amp which can drive them.

I agree somewhat with your comment. However,it has been my experience with a multitude of pre/pros that they have their own sonic signatures. If you compare them with the same amp and speakers,there are differences to be heard.

I have always advised folks to buy the best speakers they can possibly afford, then upgrade other system components as time and budget allow. With OUTLAW, we have a top-line pre/pro for a low price - a very good thing indeed.

I was curious to see that in the announcement there was no mention of the more advanced Dolby Atmos/DTS-X Pre-Pro that was originally scheduled for arrival around the same time the 976 is now going to going to become available. Since I am more interested in that model, any updates on that?

Having owned Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2's since they were released I have not had the urge to "Upgrade". They are that stinkin' good. The only upgrade that ever enters my head would be moving to the Sierra towers W/RAAL tweeters, but I am not in any hurry to replace the Sierra-2's.

Having said that, I've never owned Def Tech but have heard those that have gone from them to Ascend have been very happy. YMMV.

That is what I keep hearing. Man I gotta get those Sierra 2's!

I wonder if they'll be including HDMI 2.1 now. I imagine that'll definitely be in the flagship model (next year?) but could it be a little something extra added to the 976, too? The initial release cited HDMI 2.0a and a followup later on updated it to HDMI 2.0b, HDCP 2.2. With the final 2.1 spec locked in earlier this year, maybe they took advantage of the delay and will be incorporating it. That'd be a nice bit of future proofing and a definite selling point for their new processor.

I hope they are not waiting for HDMI 2.1 on the 976. All of the HDMI 2's give us HDCP 2.2 to get the handshaking right. HDMI 2.0 gave us 4K at 60 Hz, then 2.0a piled on with HDR. V 2.0b tweak escapes me at the moment, but HDMI 2.1 adding up to 10K resolution (horizontal) at 120 Hz is a total "gilding the lily" (for the old audio guys out there), and certainly not relevant in the home environment. Yes, we all like pushing it to the edge, but I would guess most of our budgets will not handle 8K. Besides, doesn't 8K only exist in Japan at Sony and in their "buds" labs at the super-TV network, and at RED for the movie world. I have not looked, but I must assume there are no over-the-counter HDMI 2.1 interface or signal processing chips available with the bugs all rung out -- just guessing -- and certainly not for a consumer gear cost point. A 976 with HDMI 2.0b should be compatible with all current LCD panels and projectors available until late 2019. If the 'laws are going to kick 976's out for $899, I would not expect HDMI 2.1. Maybe we will see it in the coming Outlaws hot-dog box during 2019 sometime, but for the real world in the next few weeks so we can start slamming on the credit card to get a complete "single" 4K chain - finally --- forget it -- just saying. 976 -- next week -- please -- Thank You.

HDMI 2.1 will be able to carry dynamic metadata for HDR10+. Wouldn't that be worth it? I have read HDMI 2.1 is coming in 2018.

Wasn't it Fahrenheit 451 where each whole wall of the room was a TV screen giving 360 degree video? It seems we're rapidly approaching this practical size limit for TVs. Once your TV is bigger than the wall you want to put it on you're in trouble.

You're likely right. I was just wondering about it and thought it might be a nice feather in their cap to be able to provide ahead of most of the curve at an affordable price. I wouldn't pretend to even begin knowing what would be involved in such an effort, though.

HDMI 2.0b is the current "latest and greatest" -- the major issue is that the inclusion of "Hybrid Log Gamma" info -- https://www.cnet.com/how-to/what-is-hdmi-2-0b/

The "big deal" with HLG is that it allows for LIVE HDR content which is what will be needed for things like SPORTS, though given the fact that pretty much EVERY sporting event since TV has been around is massively saturated in artificial lighting I wonder if this is a misguided effort... http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinion/hybrid-log-gamma-what-is-it-2947378 That being said since HLG is an official ATSC standard it is important -- http://www.wow.com/wiki/Hybrid_Log-Gamma

Don't confuse HDMI 2.1 (which is on the horizon) for HDCP 2.2 -- basically the copy protection scheme has been around long enough (four years??) that it too is the current standard BUT there is a looming revision that could be called HDCP 2.3 -- https://www.digital-cp.com/sites/default...erReview_v1.pdf

Not making a judgement on Ascend, but of course people are almost always happy with their newest purchase. Their ego is vested in validating their newest expense.

The best speakers depend so much on the usage, the space and on what you personally like. I like rich enveloping surround sound where the audio engineer's work is as valued as the cinematographer's. I'm not big into appreciating "stereo" music; it doesn't exist in real life and I seldom take an hour to focus solely on the music in a sweet spot.

I do have a rather purist friend, purist in many ways. Makes him excellent on projects when a team is built with his skills in mind, but often rather hard to integrate into one. His audio preference really is to sit in his sweet spot recliner, nobody talking, and just "listen". He needs a different system.

I have Def Tech bipolars all around. Powered LCR (integrated subs.) Additional rear subs. All sonically matched. They sound amazing, the result is a near-sweet-spot through out a huge space. Properly mixed music - I have a bunch of DTS - is astonishingly good, as are movies - no matter where you are, you know about where the sound was meant to come from.

But it's chaotic to my friend. I suspect it's not orderly enough for his preferences. Bipolars aren't what he wants. For that kind of noise, he'd prefer to go to a theatre, where I suspect his mindset allows it to be okay.

Of course Def Tech makes a wide variety of sound systems. I don't like the Mythos line at all, but I also don't like Bose or B&O. My point after all this rambling and detail is, sometimes the type of speakers matter more than the brand of speakers, to match your needs.

TCat: I don't pretend to be a Saloon moderator and I really don't get into tit-for-tat discussions on forums, but geez, it seems all your posts are thread craps. How folks spend their money is their business and none of mine or yours. If someone invites Saloon member's opinions on a product that is different. J.H. was really just asking whether to wait for the 976 or buy new speakers. So the first two sentences of your post frustrated me. Now if J.H. did get new Ascend speakers he may now read your post and doubt his purchase because you stated "...ego is vested in validating their newest expense." You leave no room for the possibility his new speakers really are better than what he had before. I also don't think the rest of your post added to the discussion Cadboy64 and J.H were having. IMO when someone shells out their hard-earned money It is better to be supportive or say nothing. Lecture over.

I wasn't dissing the Ascend speakers, nor any purchase of them. And, as he hasn't purchased them, your final sentence (your "attitude:, quoted above) doesn't apply. Rather it precisely validates my statement, although perhaps merely because nobody will speak up otherwise... especially you, who would prefer to impose your own self-censorship on others including me.

If you don't allow for differences of opinions between people who have bought different things, what are you doing to the flow of information?

Well thanks for the posts. I think I'm gonna hold off on speakers and get the 976, and the Oppo 203 to set myself up for eventually moving to 4K. My Def Techs really do sound great despite the reputation DT has in inflating specs. I think this is the right path. I really do want the 976. Lets see the buy button now on the website, lets get some reviews.

I 2nd that.
Get the pre-order page up already!!!!!

I'm doing much the same staying with my M&Ks but I can't help but look at OLED TVs, new remotes and Apple TV to go along with the Oppo UDP-203 and 976. I would really like to do a complete system upgrade given the age and technology of my current system.

Yeah I really had my heart set on the 976 for long time now so I will stick with that. So the 976 and the Oppo is a good start on my way to 4K. The speakers I have are really good.

Not trying to steer this thread off course, but....
I agree, people need to validate their purchases. Some will do so despite feeling they made the wrong choice but don't want to bruise their egos by admitting to it. I have played the upgrade game as long as I've been in this hobby dating back to 1984. I've had a number of speakers including models from Design Acoustics, Infinity, Vandersteen, B&W, and cureently Ascend acoustics. I will not hold on to a speaker if I am not satisfied with it. I took a chance on Ascend Acoustics back when their only model was the CBM-170 2-way monitor. It surprised me and replaced a pair of B&W 602's. When the first Sierra-1 was introduced I jumped onboard and sold the 170's. I was thrilled with the Sierra-1's. After a few years I felt more detail in the tweeter would be nice, and upgraded my pair with the NrT upgrade kits. That was a nice, noticeable change in the highs. Lots of detail and impact with the mids pulled more forward. These things rocked! Then, Ascend just HAD TO develop the RAAL Ribbon tweeter in the new tower. That led to them developing a custom RAAL for the Sierra-2 along with a new woofer designed specifically to mesh with it. They announced the upgrade kits for the Sierra-2 and I did not hesitate to purchase a pair of kits. I have upgraded the Sierra's twice rather than feel the need to seek out another brand, or even feel the urge to change them. Like I said, the only upgrade I would consider would be moving to the RAAL towers. The Sierra-2's paired to my Rythmik sub never make me feel like changing them out.

Ok, enough of this "rant"! Bottom line: Listen to as many speakers as possible IN YOUR HOME and keep the ones that make you smile!

Aye. I was just reading this article (and a couple others like it) so it seems that 2.1 is pretty much here. The first 2.1 cables are already being sold and have been doing so for about a month now. AVR's are expected to start shipping with 2.1 within the next few months, possibly even this year.

I doubt very much that Outlaw would be delaying the 976 for the inclusion of HDMI 2.1, but there's the chance that they're taking advantage of the delay and adding it. I can't imagine they'd be unhappy to be one of the first to market with 2.1.

I loved my 950, I love my 990, and I'm sure I'll love the 976. My optimism was dwindling as time passed after the death of the 978 (or was it the 997? 998? I can't remember), but now, finally, it's almost here. My 990 is still serving me well, but the thought of connecting all my devices without using the funky connections I have now has got me a little woozy with anticipation!

Was kinda hoping to have ordered this by now, have a calibrator coming 11/30...

This long-term customer is checking for an Outlaw message with a "BUY" button.

How 'bout a "Pre-order"...

Well, according to the last announcement on 10/4 the Outlaws were headed to China for 10 days to monitor production. If my math is right it's been a little over 10 days.

How about a short trip report?

+1

If Outlaw had allowed pre-orders back in January when they announced the 976, it would have created a real mess in managing the frustrations about the delays. They may be regretting the announcement now, as this has probably cost them nearly 10 months of 975 sales.

The difference now being they've approved for production. Unless I'm missing something, that means they're being built. The "China trip", should tell them when they will be able to at least put them up on the site and start selling.

It is 20 days past Oct 4th - what's the plan? Is there another big delay coming? Official release day? Timetable for orders? Come on 'laws, throw us a bone!

Slow boat to China?

Oh boy I don't know, seems odd no updates on when they will be on sale.

Looks like there is a snag in 976 delivery. A firmware bug popped up, or maybe import/export problems. I recall typically 4 - 8 weeks by boat from China for container cargo to shipping, transient and then delivery. Hope that is not the case, but no word can be bad. Best guess (OK, a guess), Thanksgiving.

I will wait until Peter or Ben gives us some details, rather than just making up reasons for the delay. Hopefully it is available for Black Friday.

I'd guess they definitely want to get the order form up and in place before the Black Friday sales happen. I can't imagine they'd want the holiday buying season to be handed over completely to their competitors if they can avoid it but it's comforting to know that even that pressure won't force their hand if they don't think it's ready.

990 owner here. Though it has largely been relegated to a glorified volume control and unbalanced direct in to balanced out converter (I run balanced cables to old Crown amps for rear channels). Delay and bass management have been taken over by an Oppo 103D.

I am looking to move to 4k video, and thus the Oppo 203 or 205, but using it the same way (audio format decoder, bass management, speaker delay) with it's HDMI input apparently runs into A/V sync issues. That, and it does not pass HDR10 through. It really should be relegated to an input device, in spite of it's excellent decoding capabilities.

So, I considered an HDMI 2.0b switch, followed by an HD Fury AVR Key to split off audio with HDMI 1.4 720p black into a bare bones A/V processor for decoding. Didn't even have to have fancy room correction beyond speaker delay, level, and bass management: I've been considering miniDSP's DDRC-88a for that after the decoding. (Yes, another A/D -> D/A, but that's less of an issue than it used to be.)

The Outlaw 975 was on my short list for this purpose: one HDMI in, decoded analog out). True, I'd lose DSD decoding over the Oppo that way, but if I'm so fanatical as to swear by DSD (SACD), I'd use, and still could add, an outboard DAC (like the Oppo Sonica DAC), with a good analog preamp like the Emotiva XSP-1.

My point is that I've become a fan of separating room processing from surround decoding, speaker distance and level matching, and bass management, even if it means another A/D -> D/A step. The DDRC-88a does Dirac Live and sports balanced and unbalanced inputs and outputs (which meant the Outlaw 975 was a contender if I switched HDMI 2.0b video elsewhere and used an HD Fury AVR Key).

So, now I see the Outlaw 976 coming "real soon now". I was looking at the 975 and Nusource AVP-18. Seeing how Emotiva sometimes has problems after release (A/V sync), I appreciate "getting it right". The 976 would mean I could avoid an HDMI 2.0b switch (Altona JunoX), AVR key, and HD Fury Linker (about $675).

ME WANTS IT! THE PRECIOUSSSS!!

P.S. if there is any way to do surround decoding, speaker level and delay, A/V sync, and bass management out the second HDMI port with LPCM audio, that opens up a world of downstream room correction processing without an extra A/D -> D/A conversion.

It would seem that the 976 would meet all of your needs and give you the parametric EQ to play with too. Your system would be less complicated too which should give you fewer conversions.

True. I know the 976 has parametric EQ. Most modern A/V processors have some kind. And, for starters that might be fine. The DDRC-88A is not cheap: about $1000. But a large part of that is Dirac Live licensing cost.

An alternative is to decode in the Oppo (it will decode all surround formats to LPCM on the secondary HDMI 1.4 output as well as analog) and follow with a nanoAVR for level, delay, and bass management, and a nanoAVR DL for Dirac Live processing, then to an A/V preamp for DAC, volume control, and balanced output. The nanoAVRs can't handle non-LPCM surround formats for Dolby and DTS licensing issues.

But the issue here is the lack of a proper HDMI 2.0b (HDR and HLG) input in the Oppo along with reported A/V sync issues via that input. It has a great decoder and speaker management, just not for external inputs, which is a real pity. I've even considered using my existing Oppo 103D to decode via its HDMI 1.4 input (which does NOT seem to have A/V sync issues) along with an HD Fury AVR Key. The advantage is that speaker management and room correction follow digitally and the preamp becomes a glorified volume control. The combination of nanoAVR and nanoAVR DL are a bit cheaper than a DDRC-88A, paying for the AVR Key. The Oppo 103D I have, but I'd still need an extra HDMI 2.0b switch. $400.

The 976 would still be relegated to basically an HDMI 1.4 DAC and volume control but might STILL justify the price for that purpose as there is no (decent) product that does this. HDMI 7.1 audio extractors exist but tend to be poor quality. And you'd still need a volume control somewhere.

Now, if the 976 offered an AUDIO HDMI 1.4 "processing loop" using the second HDMI out and the non-HDMI 2.2b input, it would be the bomb: two nanoAVRs would fit right in. (Latency is low with them.) One can dream. I ought to patent that idea.

On Edit: Looks like the Altona switch is only 10.2 Gbps instead of 18. The Sewell Switchdeck seems like a better choice: cheaper by far and one more input.

In reading your post it certainly seems that your system is very complicated and would benefit some from a simpler setup. I am not sure why you would want to add all the other devices to complicate the HDMI chain since it is already a pretty fragile invention and sometimes doesn't like to play across multiple devices in a system. The more devices in the video path the worse the A/V sync issues become. I, like you, have a lot of older equipment that sometimes doesn't support all the newer gizmos out there and have to either accept the limits or change out some parts. At this point I have decided to stay with 1080P vice 4k and will wait until there is a driving need for the object based audio gizmos.

As for the parametric EQ on the 976, it appears to be much more adjustable than anything I have seen on most AV Processors and will allow you to customize you system to sound the way you want using REW.

XenonMan: It's not complicated at all, though I may be trying to make it so.

Right now I am using an Oppo 103D as a playback device, surround decoder, and speaker manager (bass, level, and delay), with the analog outputs driving an old Outlaw 990 that is being used as a glorified volume control and unbalanced to balanced converter (since I have long runs to my rear speakers with co-located crown amps). No processing on the 990 at all. Has worked like a champ (originally in more demanding roles, switching component video, etc.) all these years. I run an Nvidia Shield through the HDMI input of the Oppo (albeit at 1080p60) for streaming content -- the streaming apps on the Oppo are buggy as hell, not having been updated. I, for one, am glad they left them OUT of the 203/205.

Upgrading to 4k would be as simple as replacing the TV, upgrading the Oppo 103D to a 203 or 205, and the 990 to a 976.

But, here's the thing: that limits me to whatever room processing the 976 offers. Yeah, a 10 band parameteric EQ is nice, but I might want more, like Direc Live, for example. Normally, that sort of room processing is done in the A/V processor: Direct Live on Emotiva, Audessey on others, proprietary on others still. And, it adds a LOT of $$$ to the cost of the A/V processor, often with compromises in other area. The Emotiva XMC-1 is $2500, the Anthem AV-60 is $3000, etc. I'd really like to separate the room processing from the surround decoding (Dolby or DTS formats), and speaker management (bass, level, and delay). That's where the complexity comes in.

There are generally two ways to do this: after the A/V processor, with an analog connection, with something like a miniDSP DDRC-88A ($1000 for Direc Live), or before the A/V processor, completely in the digital realm (miniDSP nanoAVR for speaker management, and nanoAVR DL daisy chained for Direc Live). The nanoAVR can also do custom parametric EQ and is REW friendly in that regard. Direc Live has the advantage of offering FIR filters as well as IIR ones. There's a catch though: because they don't have Dolby or DTX licenses, the audio presented to them over HDMI (1.4, I might add) has to be LPCM. The Oppo disk players have AVR HDMI 1.4 outputs as well as TV HDMI outputs (1.4 on the 103D, 2.0b on the 203/205) that can carry DECODED LPCM audio to the AVR. So, the idea is to use an Oppo disk player BOTH as an A/V source AND as a surround format decoder, so room correction can be done BEFORE the AVR instead of after, incurring an AD->D/A step. When one does this, one should ALSO do speaker management BEFORE room correction. The Oppo can do this, but only through it's analog outputs. Then the AVR decodes LPCM audio, and does not speaker or room processing. It's a glorified volume control.

The devil here is that the Oppo 203/205 have some problems with their HDMI INPUT regarding not passing through HDR (and probably not HLG either), as well as A/V sync issues. The Oppo 103D is not reported to have the A/V sync problems on its HDMI (1.4) input (HDR and HLG not even supported).

Again, using a DDRC-88A after the 976 with an analog connection would be much simpler. It's just one more piece of equipment (and can do bass and other speaker management as well as Direc Live, though there's no reason not to let the 976 do speaker management in this case). Doing room correction BEFORE the 976 requires (a) surround decoding, (b) a nanoAVR and nanoAVR DL, as well as an HD Fury AVR Key to split HDMI 1.4 audio from HDMI 2.0b video and audio (this costs about as much as a DDRC-88A), and (c) an HDMI 2.0b switch (since we are now switching BEFORE the 976). Given the flaky HDMI 2.0 input on the Oppo 203/205 I'm seriously considering using the Oppo 103D to do audio decoding (the AVR Key can send black 720p or 1080p video on the HDMI 1.4 "audio only" port).

HDMI issues usually come down to two things: HDCP and EDID. Good switches aren't a problem, and the AVR Key and nanoAVRs don't even process the video: they just generate black or pass it on. A/V sync is usually handled where the audio is first processed. Instead of accommodating the processing delay of the display, one does that as well as any down stream "audio only" HDMI devices which usually add little to no latency (and actually make the sync job easier).

So, it comes down to whether I want to (a) settle for room correction in the 976 (a good start), (b) add a DDRC-88A after the 976 with an analog connection (easy), (c) try to do speaker management and room processing BEFORE the 976 (somewhat trickier, but about as expensive as using a DDRC-88A, given I HAVE a surround decoder in my existing Oppo 103D, and just need an HDMI 2.0b switch).

The processing steps are source(s) -> switch -> split audio and video (video to TV) -> decode surround formats -> speaker management -> room correction -> D/A.

By relegating the 976 to the last step I can change the speaker management and room correction system AT WILL.

The "normal way" of course is source(s) -> AVR(switch -> split -> decode surround formats -> speaker management -> room correction-> D/A) with the 976 playing the role of AVR, letting me only change room correction via an analog connection as an afterthought.

If I could have my dream AVR, it would allow an HDMI audio "processing loop" where speaker management and room correction could be done, with, perhaps, some basic internal, defeatable, implementation of same. I eye the second HDMI out and non-HDCP2.2 HDMI in on the 976 with much suspicion in this regard.

Am I bat sh*t crazy for thinking this way? A top notch HDMI 2.0 (maybe "a", possibly "b") AVR with serious room correction, runs around $2500 (XMC-1) to $3000 (AV-60). The 976 is $900 ($800 to me 'cause I have a 990, thanks Outlaw), $1400 to $1900 cheaper. That's significantly MORE than a DDRC-88A or a nanoAVR, nanoAVR DL, AVR Key, and HDMI 2.0b switch and a lot less flexible.

I almost think there is a market for an HDMI "A/V splitter", HDMI "video processor", HDMI "surround decoder", and HDMI "DAC", allowing any type of room correction to be added between the last two. Combining the first three might make sense, with BASIC speaker management and room correction bundled with the surround decoder, but people tend to be picky about their room correction and DACs. If you combine all of them, then PLEASE provide for an "HDMI audio processing loop" between the last two.

Fellow Outlaws:

Following the topic of this thread, we want you to rest assured that the Model 976 is very much reality.

The Outlaws checked the production process when they were there last week, and everything is moving according to schedule. We've also attached a few pictures of product after QC and being packed, and product packed and ready to ship.

A final on-site inspection is taking place this week, and presuming all is well, they’ll be on their way! Once we have confirmation on that, we’ll be able to gauge the shipping time. We will then be able to more accurately predict an arrival date. Once that is done, a few details such as incoming inspection need to be completed and then we’ll be ready to announce an availability date.









Hang on. We know it’s been a long road, but we’re almost at the finish line. We assure you that the wait will be worth it.

Hangin' on here. Get 'er done, Outlaws. These need to be under Christmas trees.

I await the arrival with much eagerness. It is past time to upgrade the 990.

Hmm. I noticed there is a model 975 / Oppo 203 combo. Will there be a model 976 / Oppo 203 combo?

More than likely there will be a combo. Probably at least free shipping.

That would be cool, as I am considering both as part of my migration to 4k and if Outlaw can make a few shekels on reselling the Oppo, it would be good all around.

Do note that the 203 still appears to have quirks regarding HDMI IN and still does not support Dolby Vision, but still looks like an excellent 4k BD transport.

Awesome! Great news!!

Great to hear! Looking forward to getting one of these.

What AUDIO EDID modes does the 976 (or 975 for that matter) support on the HDMI outputs? LPCM 7.1 perhaps (assuming a downstream device actually reported that -- I can't see that a real display would though an HDMI sound bar might)?

Or just LPCM 2ch for a plain TV (the multi channel handled by the 975 through the analog outputs only)?

I would imagine, like the 975, the 976 would be able to decode DD True HD and DTS HD MA, 7.1 signals. Plus, deliver the core 7.1 from Dolby Atmos and DTS X formats.
TV's will handle PCM, some can decode DD, most can't decode DTS...Don't know about soundbars with HDMI, as even some stereo receivers with HDMI are unable to decode DD and DTS and therefore must be sent only PCM.

Oh, I would expect the same decoding capabilities. My question was not about that, but rather what audio was being sent over the HDMI outs to the TV.

See, the TV describes its audio capabilities via EDID. So, if you connect a TV that only supports two channel LPCM directly to a BD player, that's what it will send. With a pre/pro in the middle, the pre/pro will send a combined EDID to the BD player that contains the TV's video characteristics and its audio capabilities so the BD player will send better audio because the pre/pro handles the audio. What audio then, does the pre/pro send to the TV? Nothing? A downmix compatible with the TV? Usually, when splitting HDMI, the lowest common denominator EDID is sent to the source, though of course this does not happen in a pre/pro.

Here's why I ask: what if the downstream device reported 7.1ch LPCM capability? Would the 976 send 7.1 LPCM to it? Or, because the 976 expects a TV, and no such TV exists, does it just send a 2ch PCM downmix anyway? I would expect the main output might be so restricted but a secondary zone output (with its own pre/pro) might not.

I would not expect the pre/pro to transcode (say decode DTS HD MA and encode to Dolby TrueHD to the downstream device) but it might send the best LPCM mix the device says it can handle.

Here's why I ask: if I put a nanoAVR HD and nanoAVR DL and 8ch HDMI audio DAC downstream of the secondary HDMI out, and the pre/pro can send 7.1ch LPCM out that secondary HDMI output, the pre/pro could combine the 7.1ch analog result with the video for each source selection.

Practical upshot: you've just added Dirac Live to your 976.

The alternative would be a DDRC-88A between pre/pro and amps but that adds a A/D -> D/A step.

If the pre/pro could define a source by video from one HDMI input and audio from another that could avoid the external DAC but I doubt it has the extra HDMI decoder for that.

I am not sure why a processor or AVR would send anything other than a stereo audio signal back to a TV since TVs don't have surround capability. EDID is how a display tells a graphics card what video capability the display has to allow auto sync. It seems you want to add Dirac Live to the system in lieu of REW and the PEQ. No one knows what room correction (if any) the 976 will have but I would expect a basic setup to allow REW and PEQ to be used to mod the room.

EDID is for more than graphics cards. ANY video source can make use of it. This is why you can plug your BD player into a TV and have it send 2ch PCM audio (or possibly DD to be further sent via SPDIF from the TV to a soundbar) or into an AVR and have it send 7.1 LPCM automatically.

You are correct that a TV doesn't need 7.1 ch LPCM audio but would it get it if that's the EDID it provided indicated it could accept it, or would the AVR punt and just sent 2ch audio anyway? That's why I specifically ask. I'd expect the 976 to be the same as the 975 in this regard, though the safe assumption is that only a 2ch PCM downmix would get sent to the TV.

I prefer Dirac Live because it employs FIR as well as IIR filters to better tackle impulse response. While it is true that you can't optimize both at the same time, you can chose which is more important and and improve both. Dirac Live is one way of doing this.

Now, I could strip off HDMI audio before the pre/pro, process it, and then send it to the pre/pro, but this reduces the pre/pro to a multi channel DAC and volume control. Furthermore, you have to decode bitstream formats ahead of the room processor (because they generally only accept LPCM).

It just so happens that the Oppo BD players can do this AND have an HDMI input who's audio they can decode to LPCM as well. All that would be needed is an HDMI 2.0 switch ahead of it. (2.0a for HDR and 2.0b for metadata like HLG.) But, that's rare for a BD player to do (it was intended to allow new formats to be played on legacy 7.1 pre/pros).

But the 976 has a perfectly good HDMI switch which is why I am interested to see if I can get between the switched and decoded HDMI audio and the DAC and volume control in the digital domain.

Well, I think I might settle for Dirac Live with a DDRC-88A with analog interfaces AFTER the pre/pro. Reviews suggest the extra A/D D/A step is inaudible and this is the only possible path to Atmos in the future.


It eliminates the need for a separate HDMI switch and trying to use the pre/pro in a "weird" way as well as the need for a separate bitstream audio decoder with LPCM output.

That said, I really do wish pre/pros would support a digital processing loop in some manner.

Not sure where you are getting your information but I have the 205 and it does support Dolby Vision and so does the 203. I also have no issues with my hdmi input.

Also, where is this combo pricing you are talking about with the 203?

The audio formats I mention are being sent from the source device, because the pre-pro's EDID is reporting to the source device that it is capable of decoding these formats.
As far as I know, there is no audio being sent from the HDMI out to the TV, unless CEC settings are engaged to allow this.(ex. HDMI audio out to TV, or HDMI pass-thru) Then, it would be the TV's EDID that is read by the source device. For most TV's, this will be 2 channel PCM.

[spoiler][/spoiler]Right. But what if the "TV" were another downstream "AVR". Could decoded 7.1 LPCM be sent? Recent research suggests no (2ch PCM) or whatever the source sends that the TV says it can handle.

mdanderson: recent email with Oppo suggests that they have, indeed, solved the DV and HDMI input sync issues, yes. I got my data from early reports.

Rene, I think you will have to buy a 976 and do the testing in your system to get any definitive answers. I am pretty sure you are out beyond what most of the Outlaws are trying to do with their systems. If you are interested in the 976, you may find that the PEQ and REW will allow you to tweek your system without needing Dirac Live. REW is a pretty extensive system that should allow you to do anything you want for each channel of your system. Then you can decide whether you need additional gear to accomplish your goals. One big advantage would be that Outlaw customer service will be able to help some and the forums in the Saloon will have some additional input. There are several Outlaws which are anticipating the use of REW and PEQ to correct their rooms.

REW and PEQ employ IIR filters. They can't correct speaker impulse response the way FIR filtering can in Dirac Live.

That said, they are an amazing option for room frequency response at this price point, no argument.

The other aspect I am struggling with is whether I care about, or am likely to care about Atmos. Not in a living room arrangement, probably, but if I ever build a theatre, I might want to go 7.2.4. The only Dirac Live options for Atmos are either in the Pre/Pro or in the analog domain with a pair of DDRC-88As ($2000) with balanced analog I/O and a A/D D/A step. But, Atmos gets us out of 976 territory and I am nowhere ready to build a theatre.

I too am going to wait on the object based codecs until I see them become mainstream. One of the questions I have is how a room correction scheme will deal with a sound field specifically designed to place sounds where speakers don't necessarily exist. I would think that if the engineers place a sound directly in front of the screen they would have to employ some sort of "phantom" effect to get it there. Since the specs don't actually say exactly where to set your overhead speakers I would think there will be some wiggle room where the sound comes from. Of course this could be affected with how the speaker setup algorithm sets distance and delays.

I don't think the issue of phantom speakers matters in an Atmos setup: so long as the real speakers perform well, positioning tricks using volume, phase, and delay should work as expected. Of course, you could not measure and correct a system like that based on phantom speakers.

This actually comes up in non-Atmos settings where one has multiple subwoofers. The problem is that one is trying to apply room correction to the LFE channel, and all one has to measure are the real subwoofers. It also means that one should do bass management before room correction. Most people use multiple subs to smooth out the room response, and then correct them as a single subwoofer. Of course, this only works from points equidistant from each subwoofer unless additional delay management has been applied (say with a DDRC-88A for 7.1 and another miniDSP 2x4 applying delay management between subs after the DDRC-88A. Alternately, a single DDRC-88A can manage 5.3 setups (L, C, R, LS, RS, and three subwoofers, oftern used in LFE plus stereo sub arrangements). There are successful 16 channel Dirac Live room correction setups using a pair of DDRC-88As after the pre/pre for Dolby Atmos. Check out the application notes on the miniDSP website (www.minidsp.com).

But, the big thing with Atmos is that the only decoders for it are licensed in (rather expensive) A/V preamps and receivers, and sources like BD players have to have their HDMI outputs set to bitstream instead of LPCM. That means no chance to do room correction with a nanoAVR HD or nanoAVR DL in the digital domain, except on the LPCM decoded TrueHD source as 7.1. (Atmos adds metadata to a TrueHD encoding so it can play on non-Atmos setups).

Finally, the big "secret" is that supposedly a lot of Atmos content, at least initially, is supposedly pre-rendered as to speaker location.

I've decided my living room, where I would be doing critical music listening WON'T have an Atmos setup. I'll stick to 7.2 at most, and will probably do Dirac Live processing and bass management with a nanoAVR HD (bass management, distance, and level) and nanoAVR DL (Dirac Live). It's more "audio friendly" in that it is done in the digital domain. I'll leave the possible use of multiple DDRC-88As to a future separate Atmos theatre.

You do not consider bass management to be part of room correction?

No. But that is a matter of semantics. To me "bass management" involves directing low frequencies to subwoofers from other channels. The other issues subwoofers raise are very much a part of room correction.

TV's are always HDMI sink devices, while pre-pros and AVRs are HDMI repeater devices. Otherwise, you're describing a hypothetical configuration.

Right. So what happens when you put another HDMI repeater device downstream of the pre/pro, specifically a 976 or even a 975?

We know the pre/pro can send 2ch LPCM to the TV, regardless of what it receives (whether it reencodes the audio or takes the first two channels). A lot of pre/pros will only send 2ch audio from the current source or other analog sources via zone 2 HDMI.

We know the pre/pro decodes bitstream formats to LPCM and probably does bass management, level, and delay in the digital domain so as to have 7.1ch available, after all it needs it for itself prior to volume control out the analog outputs.

The question is: if a downstream HDMI repeater reported via EDID that it could accept 7.1 LPCM audio, would the pre/pro send it, or only ever 2ch.

The Oppo BD players do this out their secondary HDMI outputs, so it is certainly feasible.

It is all conjecture at this point since I don't think anyone on this forum has tried what you propose. You are asking questions that no one can answer except as a theoretical guess(SWAG). You may have better luck getting an answer from someplace like AVS forum where someone may have tried to create a processor loop for Dirac.

More than one repeater device in the loop could create handshaking issues that may prevent a proper handshake altogether, and you would get nothing.

I have to be honest, I'm confused by the entire proposition. What's the point of using a pre/pro if you're not actually going to use the audio outputs? Just use an HDMI switch and be done with it.

I think Rene wants to create a processing loop where he can have Dirac Live as room correction. I think he will run into handshake issues and lost capability. From what I gather he wants to use the HDMI output of the pre/pro out to a magic box which does Dirac Live/DSP and then back into the pre/pro for output to the amp/speakers. If I really wanted Dirac Live and didn't already own a processor I would go for the Emotiva XMC-1 which includes it standard. Personally, I prefer the old manual method just for simplicity or use Audyssey and then adjust as needed. The PEQ and REW option in the 976 and maybe the Phoenix is a heaven sent setup for those who really get into the tweaking of their systems. The system Rene describes is so one off I don't think he will get much input here.

I get what you are saying now. I use the crossover in the 975 so do not have that issue. I run a 3.1 configuration doing correction through single channel parametric eq units between the 975 and amps/sub. A single, multi channel, unit with HDMI connectivity would make life simpler but is not a necessity.

Actually, I want to SEPARATE the room correction from the preamp. The XMC-1 has Emotiva's watered down Dirac Live (thought the full version can be licensed for $99). For me, the preamp should do source selection, decoding (DTS and Dolby) and perhaps level, delay, and bass management (speaker management, though there's no reason this can't be combined with room correction).

I would not expect "handshake issue", at least not in this day and age. The biggies are EDID and HDCP 2.2, and whether they are implemented properly.

Given that the 975 can source audio and video separately (say audio from the 7.1 analog inputs), I'd expect the 976 to have this capability, though whether it would take the audio from the video source and send it out the HDMI output(s) is anyone's guess (and in what format).

I was HOPING the 976's secondary HDMI output would work much like the one on the Oppo BD players: HDMI 1.4 with LPCM audio. But, if it is like most pre/pros it will have, at most, two channel audio, either mixed down from the main source, or any other ANALOG input. If it worked like the Oppo, I could add a nanaoAVR HD, nanoAVR DL, and HDMI 7.1 ch DAC between the secondary HDMI output and 7.1 analog input and get what I want. Alas, this goes so much against the grain of how most pre/pros seem to work with regard to their outputs, that's it probably a lost cause.

I could simply take the secondary HDMI output from the Oppo BD player, add my processing chain, and drive one HDMI input on the 976, adding an HDMI switch BEFORE the Oppo and not using the one in the 976, basically using the 976 as a glorified DAC and volume control with balanced outputs (it's actually cheap for this purpose alone).

Alternatively, re sample the 7.1 outputs and use a DDRC-88A (which is far less Frankensteinish, albeit the resampling). But, for that I could use a 975 and a separate HDMI switch, with the secondary HDMI audio out of the Oppo BD player.

So, it's switch in the 976 and use a DDRC-88A, or switch externally, and use nanoAVRs with a 976, or a DDRC-88A with a 975.

On Edit: if I only used the 976 as an HDMI 1.4 to 7.1ch balanced audio DAC and volume control it would STILL be the cheapest option in that regard.

Why not spend the $99 and get the full blown Dirac Live XMC-1

Why not just use the main output and run it through your black box setup and bring the audio in to the analog channels and use the other HDMI for video only? Or is it expected that an HDMI output with "watered down" audio formats also gimps the video quality? And if you have a second HDMI output but it hobbles the audio and video quality, what's the point in having it?

The XMC-1 costs far more than the 976, two nanoAVS (HD and DL), and an HDMI 2.0b switch. And, it's not so much a desire for Dirac Live, as it is for OUTBOARD room correction, that may change in the future.

As for "hobbled" HDMI outputs, this is normal for the audio going to a TV and the video for the "audio" or Zone 2 HDMI output.

The Oppo SPECIFICALLY has a secondary HDMI output that can be configured to mirror the main one OR send 720p or 1080p black over HDMI 1.4 with LPCM decoded audio (decoding DTS and Dolby in the player). I was hoping the 976 might be similarly configured.

But, it is increasingly becoming infeasable: even if the 976 provided LPCM audio out it's secondary (or primary) HDMI output, I'd need an HDMI DAC to bring the audio back into the 976 via 7.1ch analog inputs. They exist, but are of questionable audio quality. The 976 is actually the cheapest option to go from 7.1ch LPCM audio over HDMI to balanced analog audio out with volume control. It just means I'll have to use an external HDMI 2.0b switch. And, they aren't expensive.

It really is a pity that pre/pros don't exist with HDMI audio out/in processor loops after the HDMI switch and audio decoder.

I tend to agree that even among the most "tech head" type gear driven users the scenario described is too much of an edge case -- it is not realistic to expect a "chain" of equipment to pass all the info needed. These kinds of scenarios are part of the reason that there are enhancements to ARC (that are still not really fully production ready even in the "latest and greatest" gear from big firms like Marantz/ Denon...).

The various "specialty electronics firms" that supply everybody from churches to major AV fitters for conferences and such are increasingly forced to come up with clever ways to work around the limitations of various implementations of anti-piracy in the specs; anybody trying to incorporate such "features" in actual consumer grade gear would probably fail the required certifications...

ARC is really only useful when you switch HDMI sources in the TV, or actually use the TV tuner.

What bothers me is the "kitchen sink" approach to A/V pre/pros, with the latest "gadget" being room correction. All of these add to the expense (The Emotiva XMC-1 is $2500). What happens when better room correction becomes available? Ditch the whole pre/pro that was expensive to begin with? Hope for a firmware upgrade?

Oppo "tries" to have some preamp features (HDMI input, bass, level, and distance management, as well as Dolby and DTS to LPCM decoding) in the BD player: it has everything but an HDMI switch. But, the volume control is not really designed to be used in lieu of a preamp (though people have used it that way), but rather as a trim control close to max. Decoded 7.1ch LPCM with 1080p black on an "audio" HDMI interface is a cool thing: you can do all sorts of downstream audio processing with it before needing a DAC and volume control. It's a pity pre/pros don't take the same approach for a digital processing loop: you HAVE 7.1ch LPCM in the box. You HAVE extra HDMI inputs. How hard is it to send full 7.1ch LPCM out the secondary HDMI output, and accept 7.1ch LPCM audio for the main output, or at least the DAC and analog outputs from a second source?

Would this just be a matter of firmware?

Yeah, it's a "geek" mode. But geez: you could drop PEQ out of the device, and make the rest of it real bare bones that way, as far as audio processing goes.

I'm resigned to doing it ahead of the 976 and just using it as an HDMI DAC and volume control. As I wrote, it's actually the CHEAPEST HDMI audio DAC option out there, even if none of it's other features get used. It just bugs me that its got a perfectly good HDMI switch that would go unused.

On Edit: I stand corrected. The Essense Evolve II-4k HDMI DAC fits the bill at $299, but is a pure DAC with no volume control and unbalanced outputs. Still: a very nice product at the price. Now, if one could score a Parasound Halo P7 analog preamp (about $1600 USED), that would be a killer combination.

Again: everywhere I look, just using the 976 as a DAC and volume control with balanced out is cheaper than any other alternative. A used Nuforce MCP-18 might do the trick, but TRY FINDING ONE. That alone says a lot for the 976 value proposition.

If you want bare bones get the 975. The PEQ and REW are a tweakers dream and when used as room correction it will always be available for re-tweaking if you change something. But in reality, how many of re-do our systems such that we have to re-do room correction so frequently. I think you passed the value point of no return awhile back especially if you don't have a dedicated room to really tweak.

Someone help me out here. Didn't Outlaw mention they are working with some company that was making a device to split the video from the audio so that 4K video could be sent to a display but the audio could still be sent to "older" equipment? I tried finding the post but was unsuccessful.

This might fit the bill for hotroding (seems I invented a new word) a custom audio processing solution. However I'd be concerned about lining up the audio and video after separate processing chains.

My personal preference is minimalistic (another new word!) especially when going back and forth between digital and analog domains.

Alas the 975 does not have balanced outputs. I think the 976 is a great value proposition even if I use it as a dac and volume control.

PEQ will not correct for a speaker's impulse response. Dirac Live will.

An alternative is an Essense Evolve II-4k HDMI 7.1ch DAC and Parasound Halo P7 preamp, but then you're talking $2300 new and around $1900 used for JUST a 7.1 HDMI DAC and analog preamp, DTS and Dolby decoding having to be done elsewhere. Still, people have paired Oppo players and the P7 to great success, with out room correction beyond bass, level, and delay management in the Oppo.

With that, you'd have to add a nanoAVR HD and nanoAVR DL (or nanoAVR HDA with the $300 DL upgrade and forgo the Evolve DAC) at a cost of $800, for a total of $3100, not counting an HDMI 2.0b switch. But, this is only $600 more than an Emotiva XMC-1 with FAR better audio quality.

On edit: Hmm, the nanoAVR HDA used AKM AK4440 DACs and the Evolve II 4k uses Cirrus DACs. IIRC, Outlaw likes to use Cirrus DACs. Probably be OK with the DACs in the Outlaw 976, though it would be fun to A/B a nanoAVR HDA with DL upgrade through the analog in section of the 976 against the HDMI out of the nanoAVR through an HDMI input.

The problem with any sort of "blocks of functionality" approach or even "field up-gradable" type design is that costs end up spiraling AND the base of potential users / buyers SHRINKS. The fact is even really nicely made solutions from firms like NAD carry costs for the "cards" alone that greatly exceed the cost of entire AV receivers from other makers. https://www.crutchfield.com/fg_370450_FFBrand%7cNAD/NAD-Add-on-Modules.html vs https://www.crutchfield.com/p_033AVX1300/Denon-AVR-X1300W.html

It is not a stretch to suggest that these sorts of issues are not limited to smaller manufacturers but are also seen when one looks at the product offered by the "big guys" too -- especially when considering things that are a bit "mainstream" compared to generic AV receivers it becomes apparent that design & component costs tend to create a "floor price" -- compare what Yamaha charges for something like the two channel integrated amp / DAC / streamer: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/yamaha-musiccast-wxc-50-streaming-media-player-dark-silver/5688016.p

These sorts of market realities have certainly driven the collapse of Pioneer's home audio business, and forced many mergers, especially between firms like Marantz and Denon that otherwise had extreme overlap in their offerings.

The extreme flip-side shows that there has been an explosion of firms offering extremely "no frills" alternative devices that can be used as either stand-alone products with minimally "open" digital audio sources or turned into a chain of Rube Goldberg type solutions. It is not realistic to expect Outlaw, Emotiva, or any other firm that has had success as a value-oriented option for "normal" AV users to compete with such things -- https://www.parts-express.com/Search.aspx?keyword=dac&sitesearch=true

Well, now we get into a philosophical discussion. I initially wanted to know if it was likely that the 976 would have characteristics that would allow me to insert an external, digital, audio processing loop, so I could add things like Dirac Live. It would appear it does not. All solutions require the 976 to be reduced to the role of an HDMI DAC, volume control, and balanced audio driver.

Guess what?

It's a STEAL at $899 for those functions, compared to alternatives.

It's a STEAL at $899 if it just served as a 7.1 ch analog preamp with balanced outputs.

"Cheap" alternatives for such "pure" preamps run into $1k - $2k NEW (Parasound Halo P7) and used (Krell HTS, about 15 years old now). They would both require an HDMI DAC (Essense Evolve II-4k at $299 if one likes ESS Sabre PRO DAC chips).

Granted they probably have better analog stages, but there IS NO 7.1ch analog preamp at the 976's price, regardless of quality, and I don't think the 976 will be all that shoddy.

So, reov8lr is right: niche products are expensive.

But here's the thing: it would not COST Outlaw much to add such "digital audio processor loop" functionality: basically a full 2x2 matrix switch for HDMI sources, switchible to HDMI 1.4 if you didn't want to handle 4k video). Hardware-wise, it would use exactly the same back panel ports, and would be A NICE FEATURE IN IT'S OWN RIGHT: a full second zone home theatre, if you had an A/V preamp there. Most Zone2 A/V preamps aren't matrix switched, or carry full audio: they're designed for a TV in a second room, with stereo audio.

Yeah, I know: every dime turns unto a dollar between cost and retail price. Still.

I predict full blown 2x2 matrix switchers will become a "thing" in A/C pre/pro's in the future.

But, after all my research, the take away is this: the 976 is priced for a song, even it one want's to use very little of it's capability.

Well I won't be getting one after all, at least not right now. I'm going 4K and getting an OLED instead. I bought the Sony UBP-800 BD player which has HDMI audio only so you don't have to have a receiver/processor that passes 4K. Its a great BD player by the way. Maybe down the line next year around June....if its out by then. I gotta say I don't get it. Where is this thing anyway? I can't believe pre orders haven't started yet.

This is mostly for you Rene but having giving your comments some thought I have a few comments and thoughts. The biggest would be to not use any of the management features in the OPPO. I have the 103 and can say from experience it does a lousy job regarding levels and distance and forget downmixing as it will not get the job done. I tried using mine as the hub in a 2.0 then a 2.1 system to bad effect. Life improved greatly when I bought my 975 and let it handle all of the audio. The 103 is a great disk spinner/media hub but leaves much to be desired regarding audio processing. There is a reason the '05 series machines from OPPO run a $1,000 more over the '03's. The 105 OPPO can be used as a good stand alone pre/pro where the 103 is dissapointing at best when used in the same capacity.

I give you an A+ for creativity but think you will have much greater success if you were to simplify your thought process a bit.

I just checked and the 976 is not in the Logitech Harmony list of supported products. I wonder when the 976 will be added.

It won't be there until the 976 is released.

just looking for a little hint the 976 is close to being released. And also prepping a list of items to go with it. Gonna be a big update!

Hint: Black Friday is getting close. Should be some sort of announcement then.

We can hope for a Black Friday or Cyber Monday availability but I am not holding my breath.

Yeah, this sucks. Chad B will be here 11/30 to cal my new display and do an audio cal...

I don't want to buy any other components until the 976 is available as it is the heart of the overhaul I'm planning for my family room HT. But if it is available next week I might save some money on other components if they are part of any Black Friday sales. The only item left to decide is whether to get a 55" or 65" TV and I'm making a mockup to figure out how big a 65" will feel in our family room.

That reminds me...I will get an ISF calibration of the new TV.

Stephen B: I know of the supposed management issues with the Oppos, particularly when it comes to bass management, but have not experienced them myself. I guess I don't have the right source material to saturate the low frequency downmix. But, I too, would prefer to use it as an audio format decoder and disk spinner.

In my experience the bass management, level setting, and delay worked fine in the Oppo, but the 990 would "forget" settings. The only thing I use the 990 for these days is phantom centre (which it does extremely well for my Bohlender-Graebner Radia 520 fronts), and volume control.

But, I agree, that it's likely better to do sound processing OUTSIDE the Oppo, and that is my long-term plan.

I DON'T think the 205 would serve me better than a 203: the DACs in the 976 (or something like a nanoAVR HDA running DL firmware (AKM) or Essense Evolve II (ESS Sabre Pro)) would be fine for movies. For two channel listening, there are many outboard S/PDIF options and the money saved on a 203 vs 205 would probably be better spent there (unless one is satisfied with the 2ch DAC in the 205 which might very well be the case but not something I would do right away).

Why can't you get something on sale before the 976 releases? The connections are known so you can tell if a thing is compatible and the price is known so you know what your budget is. If there's a deal on a thing you want on Black Friday or Cyber Monday, I'd get it if I were in your position.

The 976 was announced in January for a Spring release. Outlaw has been pretty quiet generally as deadlines and potentially significant dates come and go. I'll grant that going to China sounds good, but given their luck so far, those Chinese factory shut-downs could also have impacted them. So...

Other than eternal optimism, what do yo base your anticipation of an announcement on?

FWIW, I was disappointed to decide instead to move another direction, but now, with the continued delays, I consider it the correct choice for me, primarily because I needed a unit. If you have a set-up you're mostly okay with, I can see waiting longer. But this has been an epic wait thus far.

My 990 died unexpetedly back in last march. Instead of trying to have it fixed, I decided to wait on the 976, since going HDMI would help a lot in my setup. Spring came and went. I usually don't watch a lot of movies in the summertime, so the delay wasn't unbrearable. But now, I do *want* this thing!

See post #97016 on page 16 of this thread.

Just noticed all but the 976 front panel image links on http://saloon.outlawaudio.com/ubbthreads...an=33#Post96259 are now broken.

Wonder if it was an oversight, or if something's up.

On Edit: it looks like someone renamed the images so the links broke.

They're working for me.

I just need to verify, as I'm preparing to order 2 outlaw amps for a 7.2.4 (have the speakers with half of them waiting for something to push them). I was leaning towards the combo deal on the 7703, but would love to get a new 976. However, I would want Atmos. The latest announcement in October was that 976 was beginning production. I am curious if this will have both the single and dual DSP configurations in the first release - or as stated in the original message from January, it will be a separate announcement. Basically the question: if I want an atmos enabled pre-pro before new years - should I get the 7703 or wait for the 976

No offense but this is a joke. I mean what is going on? I have to say I really doubt all of this.

LOL, they posted pics of the 976 and them being boxed on 11/2. What do you doubt?

Maybe once the pre-order goes live everyone will feel more comfortable.

I believe the 976 will not be Atmos capable. It is a 7.2 channel processor.

Um how about the pre order page? This entire process has been insane, sorry.

Yea, the 976 is NOT Atmos but they'll be using it's framework for the flagship processor to follow and that will include Atmos. If you're looking for Atmos now, go with the 7703.

What exactly does a preorder page mean in the grand scheme? Oppo does the same thing, and the preorder page goes live right before shipping, not a month before...

Your posting is insane, sorry.

Ok, ok...here it is...
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/976.html

Nice. No mention of DV in the specs? Maybe "all forms of HDR" cover that?

Cool, but I don't see that page on the main Outlaw page. Regardless, very good news and I'm probably buying my upgrade components this week along with a 976.

I'd take it to mean DV included.

Yeah, we've had Helson and a few other people see the page before it has been posted on our product index page. Some of the specs need to be updated; the manual is being finished currently and will then be put on the Model 976 page. At that point, the Model 976 page will be correct, finalized, and will be up everywhere on the site.


Exactly right; it supports all current forms of HDR.

The $100 discount is very much appreciated for those who purchased a previous Outlaw pre/pro. What will be required to verify an owner of record?

And....When will I be able to place my order?

Will the 976 still have a linear power supply?

We are able to pull up customer history to confirm that someone meets the criteria. You would be able to place the order and the billing department would verify eligibility. There should be another announcement soon with more information pertaining to the loyalty program and dates.




Yes.

Sadly, I purchased my 990 more than 10 years ago, so the loyalty pricing will not apply to me. Oh well.

So flipping through the manual, it looks like there's seven total inputs allowed (6 HDMI and TV for ARC) plus the Tuner and Bluetooth. Counting the Bluetooth input, that's three more than the 975.

I have not seen the manual yet. Is it on the website yet?

Link to the product page was posted at AVS forum yesterday.

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/976.html

You'll find a link to the manual there.

I didn't know Outlaw put a timetable on the loyalty discount. Where did you see the 10-year limitation?

Edit: I now see it on the draft 976 page. Hmmmm. I'm going to have to figure out when I bought my 990 but it doesn't seem fair since I still own the product versus just having spent at least $250 on a single Outlaw item in the last 10 years. And there was no time limitation in the 976 announcement this past January: "Even better, for a limited time, Model 975 or Model 990 owners of record may take advantage of a $100 discount and upgrade to a Model 976 for $799." There is the opportunity for Outlaw to match the 976 page with what was announced in January.

Outlaw's pretty strong in customer service. It might be if you're the original owner and just a little past the cutoff they'll grandfather you in. We do that where I work. If someone is even a couple months beyond the cutoff date we'll often extend warranty coverage. In any case, it never hurts to ask. The worst that can happen is they say, "No." In that case, you're no worse off than you are now.

I’m trying to figure out if I qualify as an Outlaw Owner of record. Does anyone remember when the RR2150 came out? I’m thinking around 2005, I just don’t remember when I bought mine, I think it was in 2007. Guess I'll have to call to see if I’m golden within the decade window. I also bought the 950 back in the late 90’s, but that doesn’t qualify.

Putting a limit of a decade is really upsetting, as this loyal customer has been waiting years for this product. I feel all past Customers should have access to this promotion as a thank you from Outlaw for hanging with them.

Really hoping to get that $100 off the 976, if not maybe I'll just walk away on principle.

“Previous Outlaw Owners of Record*: Pre-order the Model 976
Just $899!

$799; valid until Dec. 28 2017!
*This applies to customers who have purchased any single product, with a list price over $250, directly from Outlaw Audio within the last decade”

Thank you.

I just fetched my 990 invoice. Lucky as I am, <sarcasm ON> it's dated october 30, 2007, so I'm mere days outside the 10 years time frame... I'm in Canada, so I need to add to the sale price : additionnal shipping fee, custom fee, both Canadian sale taxes and the curency exchange rate. Of course, none of this are Outlaw's fault! But the 100$ rebate would have softened the deal for me! I understand Outlaw wanting a cutoff date, but as was pointed out already, the initial offer made no mention of a time-limit. On top of that, the actual release date was pushed for months from june to a yet to be announced date.

Oh well.

Did I miss something???
Where did the 10 year window come from?
I see it now.

I read through much of the excellent manual of the 976 and I wonder if there will be any future or additional information on how to incorporate REW with the 976. I am really interested in how to send the correction files from REW to the 976. I have read the guides for REW and it sounds like the correction files will be exported to the 976 once you are done saving your files.

Just got my pre-order in - Thank You Outlaws. I can't wait to hear and see what the electrons sound and look like after running their way through the 976.

Did I miss it? What is the story on what/who and where the Blue Tooth receiver will come from?

Pg. 20 of the manual explains the Bluetooth. I believe Outlaw will offer an optional BT module that connects to the back of the 976.

Wait, can you actually preorder it through that link? I thought the link only showed the page but wasn’t actually live yet.

Mine's ordered.

*Order cancelled until further review*

That's a cool count, and six years ago it mattered to me...

• Oppo
  
• Nintendo Wii (Only the one gaming system for me!)
  
• Laserdisc
  
• Legacy S-VHS
  
• HTPC
  
• Aux input for MHL (phones)
  
• Roku
  
• Dish Tuner
  
• WD Media Center

But that was then. Now it's down to...

• 4K BluRay
  
• Roku

And the only reason for the Roku is that my TV is a (2-yr old) top-of-the-line Samsung Tizen, which means great picture, terrible apps and software. It sort-of supports a lot, but the Roku is more reliable. Still have a PC and Nintendo, never turn them on. Cut the cord a long time ago also. The rest have been replaced with TV or Roku apps/channels or casting and the ethernet.

Out of curiosity, how many devices do you (forum at large) regularly use?

Crap!!! No phono pre-amp....

Quite a few, 3 with HDMI and 4 analog.

Having looked at the manual, I would have liked to have the ability to re-name the inputs which isn't available.

Which guides to REW did you read that in?

Sorry, I meant to say the guide from Austin Jerry from the Home Theater Shack website.

Was it already known that the analog inputs are not passed thru the DSP? This is a sad news to me. In a system with small speakers + sub, that means you'll have to listen your legacy formats without the sub, without crossover, time alignment and parametric EQ. I presume the internal tuner will also not be processed. I'm not thrilled by that design choice!

I'll have to get an external ADC and external switching to accomodate my analog stuff.

What devices? Obviously a record player, given your comment. Analogue tape and distinct CD player also?

The 976 manual makes no mention of importing filters from any measuring program, just explains how to set filter parameters using the on-screen display (shouldn't take more than a few seconds). Does the guide give you steps on how to export filters?

I would think that if this is not available that Outlaw will come out with a firmware update to correct this.
For crying out loud our 10 year old 990s can do this.

The REW guide from Austin Jerry does give some guidance about creating the export files(pg 95-98), but here is a post from Outlaw Ben that I hope helps a bit. If you have already seen this post then please pardon me for referencing it.
http://saloon.outlawaudio.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=96623#Post96623

Thanx, it settles the matter. If filter parameters could be exported, then there would be no need to manually copy them (as Ben described).

[/quote]If filter parameters could be exported, then there would be no need to manually copy them (as Ben described). [/quote]

Thanks for clearing that up. I guess I did not understand the REW guide in that respect. So it looks like you can't actually export filter parameters to the 976. You would still have to do the adjustments yourself in the PEQ of the 976 based on what info REW gives you.

I just got my UMIK-1 yesterday so I hope to get some practice with my current Marantz receiver. Thanks.

It would be nice if the REW filter parameters could be imported to the 976, but it is at least nice that it has the ability to apply room correction. In practice I see this as a minor inconvenience as I expect they are not often changed. But, it's also the reason I looked at things like Dirac Live. Not only does it apply IIR filtering, it also provides FIR filtering. The former allows for your classic rolloff and parametric equalization (center frequency, bandwidth, and gain/attenuation) which helps with room correction (and a bit with less than ideal speakers, though there are limits). But, FIR allows for impulse response correction, so the signal from the woofer arrives at your ears at the same time as the tweeter. While IIR filters are implemented in few stages (4 for the typical biquad filter), FIR filters can have hundreds or thousands, each adding to computational complexity. Furthermore, you can't simultaneously optimize for a smooth frequency response AND impulse response, so trade-offs have to be made. Dirac Live offers one such kind of trade-off. Trinnov offers a different one, and various manufactures have their own.

I've always thought room correction belongs OUT of a preamp/processor. Alas, this is hard to do in the digital domain: if noting else copy protection schemes get in the way. I've come to the conclusion that the easiest way for me is to use a nanoAVR HD and HDA (the latter with a Dirac Live update) to do bass management, and Dirac Live, between the AVR output of an Oppo transport, and the analog pass through inputs of the 976, using the latter for a volume control. For less critical listening (game consoles, etc.), they can be switched THROUGH the 976 HDMI imputs and use it's REW-compatable parametric equalization.

But, my research lead me on an interesting journey of how audio (and to a lesser extent, video) is processed in the professional production and recording industry. Stop reading here if you're strictly interested in 976 stuff, for here be dragons.

See, you can't get 8 digital audio signals out of an HDMI link, not without designing your own hardware. You CAN get them out of a 3G SDI video signal, and (unprotected) HDMI to 3G (and 12G for 4K) converters exist, and at reasonable prices (Blackmagic makes some nice cheap ones). But, then they are in AES/EBU format. Fortunately, the miniDSP DDRC-88D can handle this just fine! But, then what? Multi-channel DACs with AES/EBU inputs are not cheap. And in the professional world, they tend to include as many A/D channels, which increases the expense ($2500 and up for 8 channels, but often with better specs than consumer audiophile 2ch DACs). Now, there are active speakers with AES/EBU input options (HEDD Type 07, for example), that aren't too expensive (under $1k per speaker, and $400 for an AES/EBU or Dante input), so it IS an option, doing volume control in the DDRC-88D. Notice, no 976 required in this scenario: switch consumer HDMI before the Oppo, take the Oppo AVR output, strip HDCP (there are ways), convert to 3G SDI, deembedd the 8 channel audio, and Bob's your uncle.

If stripping HDCP isn't your thing, then one can always get a Vanity HD board for the Oppo, with 8 channels of digital audio on 4 SPDIF links. They can be converted to AES/EBU levels easily enough, but it is not clear if the DDRC-88D will like the consumer as opposed to professional subcode. miniDSP hasn't answered my query in this regard. However, the Mutec MC-4 (around $700) will happily convert SPDIF to AES/EBU or ADAT (more than 2ch SPDIF in the professional world, but limited to 8ch@48k, 4ch@96k with SMUX/2 (two cables for 8ch), or 2ch@192k (four cables for 8ch)).

Then, things get MORE interesting! With a Focusrite RedNet 3 ($1000), you have 32 combined channels of ADAT or AES/EBU (8 of these) input and output, with a Dante gigabit Ethernet interface. Basically, this places 24 ADAT input/outputs AND 8 AES/EBU input/outputs on an Ethernet network to do with as you please.

So, you go SPDIF into the Mutec MC-4, converting them the ADAT and ithen nto the Focusrite RedNet 3, To this, you attach your DDRC-88D, connect a PC running the Dante Controller, and set up your routing: ADAT to AES/EBU, AES/EBU to network. You then put your active speakers on the network. Just think: an Ethernet cable per speaker to a switch.

What speakers? Well, the HEDD Type 07s accept Dante input modules as well as AES/EBU input modules. For other speakers, one can buy single and dual channel Amphe-Dante adapters ($169 and $199 respectively), that are literally Ethernet in, analog audio out on XLR connectors, that all professional active speaker (and many amps) accept. (I think they are limited to 48Khz sampling rate.) They do require PoE (power over ethernet).

Now, Dante requires an Ethernet capable of supporting MANY packets (each one is about 1ms of audio, so at 48Khz, that's 48 24 bit samples, or 144 bytes, and for 8 channels that 8k packets per second). The system supports up to 512 channels on gigabit networks, though you need good switches.

So, $800 for the Vanity HD, $700 for the MC-3, $1000 for the DDRC-88D, and $1000 for the RedNet 3. $3500. Starts to approach the cost of a top of the line A/V preamp (Emotiva revealed their RMC-1 for $5k). And you still need speakers: about $1200 a pop for Hedd Type 07s with Dante inputs, or if you want to go cheap, Emotiva Stealth 8s with Amphe-Dante's for $1100. Add about $100 to $200 for a good gigabit Ethernet switch.

But here's the thing: you're now in production/recording studio quality territory. For about the same cost as upper mid-fi equipment. More inputs? Well, HDMI switches aren't all that expensive, even 4k ones. The biggest part of the expense is getting the audio into the format you want: there's no good reason Oppo transports, processors, and preamps can't have Dante Ethernet ports. Want more audio source selection? Get a bigger Ethernet switch. Imagine the cost savings on all those HDMI and analog ports. Removing format conversion costs leaves one with $1000 for the Dirac Live processor, and $100 per channel for Dante back to analog to feed an amp or active speaker. With the Emotiva XMC-1 running at $2500 and the RMC-1 at $5000, can you imagine if the 976 had Dante I/O instead of all the silly ports (yes, now you're processing audio exclusively), or an HDMI switch and audio deembedding to Dante, perhaps with some kind of processing inbetween?

Sigh.

One thing I wonder is if a Homeplug powerline network would be adequate to support a SMALL number of Dante channels. Then you could manufacture powered Dante speakers THAT YOU JUST PLUG IN. No more 5.1, 7.1, 7.2.4, etc. cabling nightmares. This is particularly true since Dante supports multicast.

The big wrinkle in all this is DRM. HDCP applies not only to video but digital audio embedded with it. But, let's say we allow ONE ADC conversion extra. Then, all one needs are as many analog to Dante adapters as one has audio channels. Going the "professional" route like I illustrated is like a root canal: HDMI audio extraction to SPDIF, SPDIF to ADAT, ADAT to AES/EBU, AES/EBU to Dante. $2500 for 8 channels, or $312.50 a channel (I left out the Dirac Live processing). Not TOO bad, but surely we could get that down to $100: If one can get an Amphe-Dante DAC for $100 a channel, one should be able to make a similar ADC for the same price. I also think the powers that be are more concerned about video rather than audio "piracy".

Ah well. I will probably go the nanoAVR route to analog XLR active speakers via a 976, but will certainly watch Dante (and the related standard AES67), for future audio handling, not in the production and recording environment, but in the home).

Will I be able to update the model 976 firmware myself if new firmware becomes available, or will the unit need to be shipped back to outlaw? If I can do it from, will I just need a USB to serial adapter?

Good question being there is no USB port.
That eliminates using a thumb drive like on the Oppo Blu-ray players and there is no mention in the owners manual about wireless connectivity so that is not an option either.

The 975 updates can be applied at home via USB to Serial adapter connected to the 9-pin input on the 975. I can't imagine Outlaw going backwards from that implementation on the 976.


We've got the following devices connected:

Roku
PS3
PS4
Switch
Wii
CD Player

The Wii doesn't see a lot of use these days but it does get used from time to time. The Roku is used heavily and the PS3 is our blu-ray player so it sees a lot of action, too. Most of our current games are PS4 and the Switch so between the two teenagers and myself, they see their fair share of action, too. The CD player doesn't get as much use as I would like but it's still used, if not frequently, then fairly often.

For those keeping score at home, yes, that is six inputs on a five input pre/pro. Since the CD player is using an optical input and the Wii is using an analog input, that means I have to run a pair of HDMI inputs through an external switch. I chose the PS4 and the Nintendo Switch for this duty because the Roku and the PS3 are our primary content providers. Found a decent switch on Amazon that works pretty well. It's got an auto sense to swap to the most recently active input and also a remote that can be used to force it so a specific input should it be needed. I have to admit that those additional inputs on the 976 are pretty attractive.

Like I said, it should take a few seconds to copy each of the recommended parameters to the 976. Since the 976 is supported by REW, the filter recommendations will be based on the specific parameters (centre frequency resolution, amount of boost/cut, filter width numbers) of the 976's EQ system. Pretty awesome that Outlaw had REW support ready even before the 976 shipped.

I've been out of town since Thanksgiving and just noticed there's a pre-order page, so:
I PRE-ORDERED! ;-)

I completely agree. This is a beloved feature of my 990 and I'm sorry to see that it doesn't carry over here.

Is this still true? I haven't seen anything since January 2017 about the flagship Atmos processor, despite asking several times.

No 2nd zone... bummer

I'm guessing maybe this is a feature they'll put into the flagship processor as another means of differentiation.

It should be. We haven't heard otherwise. I'm sure they've been more focused on getting the 976 finished up and out the door. Since it looks to begin shipping soon, I'd expect to have news on the flagship model before too long. Maybe they'll give us an update in January. That seems to have become Outlaw's news delivery window in recent years.

So... is/will the 976 be available w/o Atmos? ...I don't need, or want, Atmos...simply seeking and updated 4K rated processor with updated (latest) HDMI's.

The 976 does NOT include Atmos. It is a 7.2 output processor and sounds like exactly what you want.

Is it for sale on the Outlaw website? Can't seem to find it...

UPDATE: Just called Outlaw, they advised that the 976 will appear on their site, for ordering, late this week or early next...Can't wait!

(page 24 of this thread)

You can preorder one using the link in this thread. A few other folks seem to have done so, me included.

How long is the trial period on the 976? Have been following this site since I started looking for a new Pre/Pro and looking at a couple of options, the 976 included. Just trying to decided if a trial period is long enough for me to ferret out any problems or if I should wait awhile for you guys to do it.

I would think it would be the usual 30day return policy.

I second this. It should be the normal 30 day trial period.

Thanks mdanderson & Owl's_Warder.

Wish these would hurry up and ship so I can see people's opinion so I can make up my mind. :-)

OK Outlaws.
There have been a lot of questions posted here now so I would think it is time to address some of them.
Especially for those of us that are on the fence about ordering, like me.
I have been waiting for a new processor for several years and here it is but with some short comings.
No phono preamp is kind of a big deal but easily overcome.
Not being able to rename inputs is odd but, hopefully will be addressed in a firmware update.
Speaking of firmware updates how are these going to be done?
It appears that the old way of RS232 is the only way.
I don't know about you but my laptop doesn't have an RS232 connection so now what?
Please give us a little update.

You can get a serial to usb adapter to use for FW updates and this should work on your laptop. Amazon I know has them.

Yeah, USB to serial adapters are not hard to find.

The loss of all processing when using an analog input. Meaning your beautifully calibrated system will revert to flat when listening radio, LPs, cassettes, even VHS hifi... How much more a basic stereo ADC could have cost? 5$ ?

Agreed they can be found but how much would it have cost to just add a USB port so you could do firmware updates with a thumb drive like the rest of the world?

It's not as simple as just adding a connector. You also then have to provide drivers so the PC's that connect to it will be able to read it and communicate. They could likely use some third party package that's already in the great USB database in the Microsoft sky, but that will likely add more cost. Keeping it serial let's them keep the focus on their bread and butter, the price to performance ratio. Also, they're not a company that is constantly pushing out updates so most people will likely NEVER use the feature anyway.

That said, when the 975 firmware update was put out, the Outlaws sent me the USB to serial adapter they wanted me to use for it.

He's not talking about connecting to a PC, merily read a thumb drive plugged in, like a Blu-Ray player would.

I see. I'm sure that comes with its own set of challenges, too. Like I said, Outlaw isn't one of those companies that pushes out updates all the time. At least, they haven't been up to this point.

I would guess that, as a minimum, adding a thumb drive reader would mean adding more code to read it and the ability to have that code self update from your thumb drive when you stick it in. Now you're adding however much additional code to make that happen which adds time and overhead both on the initial build and any updates in the future. You're also adding the cost of the hardware to make that possible. I don't know what kind of cost that is, likely not much for the pieces, but then there also has to be the engineering to figure out hardware compatibility, positioning, powering it up, and interfacing it which adds more initial cost for design as well as ongoing material (and labor?) cost for the implementation.

Now maybe all of that doesn't add up to massive dollar amounts, but for every little thing that "just doesn't cost that much" you add, you just keep raising the price tag. Outlaw stakes their claim on excellent performance to price ratio and adding something that hardly anyone will ever use runs counter to that position.

Perhaps the flagship processor will incorporate something like that given the nature of it being Outlaw's high end model. People expect more bells and whistles on a product in that position of the lineup, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't.

I am not sure about what it would cost but after all these years, and being an Outlaw fan, I am going to pass on the 976.
Too many short comings in my opinion even at its price point.
Maybe the flag ship processor will be the one.
Very disappointing and sad.

I'm guessing it's a money thing. After all the RR2160 has USB-B input for streaming from a computer so you know they have the circuit and the software to support the feature.

FWIW I too will be passing on the 976. The jump to 4K is going to be a long and pricey transition and I can afford to wait to see what comes next, at least for now.

Outlaw's email announcement of 976 just landed in my inbox! I preordered last week with hopes of receiving mine from the batch Outlaw already has on hand. I've also purchased a few items to go with the 976: LG OLED 55" TV, OPPO UDP-203, new Harmony remote, a new cable box and some high speed HDMI cables. An Apple TV 4K, ISF calibration for the TV and a UMIK-1 mic are next. Now I need to get serious about learning how to apply the results from REW to the 976's PEQ. I've been looking forward to this upgrade for a long time. Thanks Outlaw!

Got the email this morning and I have ordered 1 and will replace my 975

Hello all.

Well it's finally here. Enough said.

As you read about all of the features and specs of the Model 976, we also encourage you to browse the owner's manual.

We spent the last several weeks creating detailed drawings, writing (and sometimes re-writing) copy to make the set-up and operation of the Model 976 as clear as possible.

Also, in addition to providing detailed installation instructions, the manual provides the background and use of the various surround modes.

All in all, we think you will find this document easy to understand and useful, especially if you have been either overwhelmed or confused by manuals for some other AV products.

Enjoy.

Peter

Thanks to you and your team, Peter. Having experienced some electronic products extended development cycles myself, I can empathize with what must have been a frustrating experience.

Was the email you refer to an announcement of the product or was it a shipping notice on a pre-ordered unit?

Thanks Outlaws! So excited to see this product officially listed. Any chance of a 976 / 5000 / Oppo UDP-203 combo like there was with 975?

Also, I didn't see the FTB-01 on the shopping page. Is that just automatically included?

Decided to paste the e-mail announcement here for all -

We're pleased to inform you that we are officially taking pre-orders for the Model 976 surround processor. A limited number have been shipped over by air, and they will be ready to ship next week. The bulk of the shipment is already steaming over on a "fast boat" and they should be in your hands before Christmas. However, since some of the first shipment is already spoken for, if you want to be one of the first to get one, we urge you to ORDER QUICKLY!

For those who haven't been following the Model 976's progress, it is a high-end preamp/processor focused on sound and video quality, ease of use, and expanded connectivity. The components, build quality, features and performance are blended together in a unique product unlike anything else in the market. For the most part, the features and specs have not changed since the original announcement, so rather than repeat them here; you will find all the information and pictures here.

One other thing that has not changed since our earlier announcements is the Model 976's price. At $899 it will set a new standard for audiophile surround sound processors!

However, for the holiday season we're making the Model 976 even more attractive. Until December 28th 2017, we'll include the FTB-01 Bluetooth adaptor at no extra charge. As described below, it is a $49.99 value that adds full access to Bluetooth streams.

Even better, if you have purchased any single item directly from Outlaw Audio within the past ten years with a price over $250, or if you purchased a Model 990 directly through Outlaw, we are sweetening the pot even more! Those Outlaw owners may choose between an immediate $100 cash discount, which brings the price to $799, or $200 in Outlaw Bucks. These Outlaw Bucks are good starting 30-days from date of purchase for use on any single purchase totaling over $500, during the following six months.

It is important to note that this is NOT a trade-in program; you will not be returning your existing product. Rather, it is an expression of thanks to our customers for their patience in waiting for the Model 976 as well as for their past patronage.

This all adds up to an incredible value. Place your order now to assure the earliest possible shipment. As always, while an order now reserves your place in line, we never charge your credit card until the order ships.

For those we complained, I also noticed this line: "if you have purchased any single item directly from Outlaw Audio within the past ten years with a price over $250, or if you purchased a Model 990 directly through Outlaw, we are sweetening the pot even more!"

Looks like people who purchased a 990 directly through Outlaw are now included in the special pricing deal. The 10 year time limit appears to be lifted in this case.

That would be me! I just ordered mine. The thing may not be 100% perfect, but nothing is! Hope to get it in time for the upcoming holidays!

I'm excited. I am looking forward to seeing the opinions of the early adopters. I am hoping to make a decision soon so any feedback would be great.

Woohoo!!! I just pre-ordered the 976 and can't be more excited and happy. I got my Christmas present. This is exactly what I'm looking for to replace the 975. Now the question is, do I move the 975 to the backroom or give my brother a present. Thanks, Outlaw.

Was notified by Fedex it is on the truck for delivery today. I ordered on 11/30.

Good to hear. When you get a chance, please pass along your comments.

Awesome! Looking forward to some user reviews!

For the Model 975, we provided customers of record a null modem USB to RS232 cable free of charge when we released a firmware update. I have no reason to believe we would do anything different for this model.

Absolutely correct; 30 days.

I will be setting up my new 976 (arrived this morning) tomorrow and I want to program my Harmony Remote but I don't see the 976 in the list of supported devices yet. Will using model 975 work, at least for the time being, or are the codes different?

Yes, please! Pass on any observations.

Are you set up to run REW and adjust the PEQ? I am interested in your thoughts and know I am not the only one. If you are able to run the eq? If so it would be appreciated if you would would list the hardware you used and what you thought of the interface. Thank you

Congrats on your new processor. Judging by my 975 experience your 976 should do everything Outlaw has advertised and do it well.

Thank you.
While we are on this subject will there be an update so we can rename the inputs?
As you might guess I am waffling on buying the 976.
I had decided to not to it but now I am not sure.

I am interested in this as well. I have been practicing with running measurements with REW using my Marantz and my 976 is scheduled for delivery this Tuesday. Thanks.

I've never run REW but I may look into it since I have an SPL meter. My initial setup was just using the Auto feature and the supplied mic.

Depending on your spl meter it may not hear much past 3k or so. Most all room issues will be well below 3k so while a SPL meter might not be your first choice for a mic it will work.

Is there a reason why the mic included with the 976 cannot be used?

The mic supplied is probably specifically tuned for the signal generated by the auto setup program. Depending on the specific frequency of that signal the mic might not cover the range that the EQ system can. Keep in mind the auto setup program is pretty basic and usually only determines speaker size and distance not full frequency capability.

I ordered one yesterday, probably too late for the initial batch. Cannot wait to replace my old 950.
I would think renaming the inputs is going to be the number 1 request for an update. Ive been pondering the supplied names and like everyone else im thinking: what input name am i going to use for my Oppo? Disc, Media ??? Hey, I want to name it "Oppo" !!!!
Anyone know the cable length on the supplied mic? I need 25ft as i have a media closet outside my dedicated theater, so will probably need an extension. Is it a mono 3.5mm cable ?

How loud were the test tones on the 976? The 976 manual mentioned that the test tones are quite loud so I was thinking about using a separate test disc to be on the safe side. Thanks.

The test tones are loud enough for the mic to accurately determine the speaker distance and size. The supplied mic has a 3.5 mm jack and quite a long cord for the mic. How would you use a test disc with the auto system? I would doubt if Outlaw will make a FW change to allow renaming of sources. They probably figure that once the 976 is configured there will be no need to display what the source is as the user should know.

How would you use a test disc with the auto system?

I would use it with the manual adjustments. I know I can't use it with the auto. I was just concerned about damaging my speakers if the internal test tones start out too loud.

The web page for REW says you need a calibrated mic, in the $80-$100 category. Since this would be my only use for it I don't see myself making the expenditure.

Your Radio Shack SPL meter might be on the list of available calibration profiles. At one time REW had files for several different meters.

The test tones are not loud enough to harm your speakers. I would guess they are somewhere between 85-90 db, loud but not painfully so.

The RS meter is on the REW list and will serve for most bands less than 3K hz.

Peter, is there any update on the Atmos Processor?

In the next week or two we will provide an update. There are significant changes coming in several of the technologies that will be in this product.

Thanks looking forward to it.

Thanks. Do you have the 976 yet?

No, I will hold out for the Phoenix.

I've read the manual. Delighted to learn Outlaw has provided us w/ built in calibration DSP - I missed that!

Peter, do you have an update on the Atmos processor? V. curious to hear about what changes have been made since the last product update.