978 Release Date

I think the over/under bet was somewhere around June 30 with people taking either side of the bet. I'm wondering if the tragic disasters facing Japan will push that date further out. My understanding is that some chip manufacturers have been directly impacted, but it is not clear what type of chip manufacturers are involved nor when Japan will even be able to begin the recovery process.

Any thoughts?

To say the least, the entire parts situation is completely up in the air. Everyone is scrambling to determine what this means for their products- component by component, and the information about availability is changing daily.

Expect disruptions all across our industry. In that regard we are checking about the status of the Marantz products we are offering.

You will also see examples of parts pricing gouging as companies attempt to keep their production lines going.

With the availability of fully-functioning (hdmi, 3d, room correction, etc.) receivers in the market today, is anyone out their regretting or at least re-thinking their decision to go with separates, a piece of the market that is seemingly years behind in product development and can't seem to get a good model to ship at a "reasonable" price point - the Marantz being a possible exception, I guess. Love my 990, but it's getting a little long in the tooth - don't see Outlaw 978 in the cards, particularly with Peter's comment above which, through no fault of Outlaw's, is making it seem like it will never be released. Just wondering how loud the gnashing of teeth might be at this point.

First, for at least the last 10 or 15 years there have always been receivers available with more features than processors could offer. It's the nature of the R&D process. The attractions for processors were mostly related to sound quality - partly because of the benefits resulting from the removal of power amps from the chassis and partly because designers often invested more effort into sound quality on processors. I think that's still true today.

Second, I don't see anything in Peter's post that suggests the Model 978 will be killed by this. All I see is a (reasonable) suggestion that the quake and tsunami may delay availability of some chips. D&M Holding announced this morning that they were closing one of their Japanese plants for at least a week to make repairs to it, which will impact both Denon and Marantz. Once it comes back online, I'm sure there are also going to be issues with delivering any goods that get built. Any components in the Model 978 that are made by factories in Japan may be hard to get, and if the factory building the Model 978 doesn't have enough on hand right now to build a full production run (and assuming any such stockpile could avoid being poached for other production while shortages exist) then it's entirely possible that production will have to wait until those chips are available again.

No regrets here. I originally started with the 970/7075 combo. At the time, the performance for movies and in particular music was the best I had experienced. I easily sold the 7075 for almost the price I paid and bought a 7500 but used a Denon Reciever as a pre/pro. There were some obvious benefits such as HDMI connectivity and the lossless codecs. There was a decrease in sound quality in terms of music listening. The Denon works well (and has no glitches) but does not sound as good for CD listening. This is something that is important to me. There are lots of recievers with the latest and greatest. What I am waiting for is the Outlaw product that goes back to basics - that is good sound. Yeah, some good video switching/conversion and room calibration would be great, but what I really want is something to take me back 30 years.

1. The separate amplifier, in my opinion, is a far superior set up. Look at the guts of Outlaw amps, they are very well designed and use excellent components. I don't believe that you will see a Toroidal transformer of that caliber in a receiver.

2. Outlaw amps never get hot to the touch, you can run them all day. This in part goes back to the design and the Toroidal. My subwoofer also has a Toroidal, and that is the same as my Outlaw amp, never gets hot. You can make toast on some of the Onkyo and some Denon receivers.

3. With a separate Pre/Pro, you have the liberty to add all of the features that you want, there's plenty of room.

4. As new technology develops, and you desire to upgrade, you only need to purchase a new Pre/Pro.

5. If one part of your system goes down and is in need of repair, your not without the entire system. I am sure all of us have spare receivers laying around that we could plug in.

As far as the 978 goes, the economy as well as the HDMI 1.4, room correction, 3D, etc has seen some changes the last couple of years. I say let all of this iron out and release the unit when it's ready and when it's right. I am more concerned with Outlaw as company than us getting the latest and greatest. I want Outlaw to do well and prosper and I hope that the last couple of years have not hurt the company or put them in a bad situation financially.

And on a final note; as soon as the 978 is announced for pre-order, I will be one of the first to put the money up.

Most of us that chose separates did so because of the sound quality we can get from more powerful amps. Another great advantage is that the systems overall are more flexible to upgrade. With a high powered amp I can upgrade my speakers without worrying about whether it will be able to handle the new loads. Also I don't worry about mixing and matching impedances so much, because I know the Outlaw amps are "all channels driven" and generally outperform their specs. That is not generally true of receivers, and when it is, they tend to run hotter than I like. All that heat in the same box as all those electronics means premature failure down the road.

Just to clarify, I'm not forklifting my 990 for an AVR any time soon - I agree with pretty much all the comments about separates - just getting a little envious at times of the advances made that I must wait for...

NRBQLou - "regret" is strong and to that exact question I would say "no", I don't regret buying a 990 what now seems like many years ago,... but I have to admit I have been having similar thoughts lately as you expressed in your first post above. The gap in time or features between receivers and processors seems to have widened. I too have considered jumping to a receiver as a processor because it seems tough to find good processor choices right now, even adjusting for a time lag. I can't bring myself to do that (and if anything 'will cave to a couple-year old proc before a receiver), but I'll second your point in that in seems like a low point for us right now.

What many consider "advances" are considered by some of us as "bells and whistles" and are usually attractive only when compared to another device which lacks the item. Years ago I had a Sony receiver which had all kinds of sound modes like stadium and opera and a host of others. I almost never used them because they changed the sound in ways which, although predictable, also garbled a lot of music. For all the carping we all do regarding which wires sounds the best, we all too often use some feature which distorts the sound to a degree that coat hangers never could. I guess it is the nature of the beast that even though we profess to want the processors to be completely honest in the reproduction of the input at the output, we still want the gismos that sound cool or allow us to win in the contest between ourselves.

I dunno, HDMI (goodbye cable clutter), room correction (or something like that), HD audio in all it's formats, usb or ethernet firmware updates, 3d capability for when it's time to do that, advanced GUI, and so on are all sounding pretty cool to me, although it is the sound that trumps them all...if these advances (yes, advances) weren't appealing at some level to a bunch of us, this forum would not need to exist, IMHO - and yes, never found a real need for stadium DSP, hence the 990 in my cabinet.

Well said NRBQLou: I think some of us AV enthusiasts fall for the trap of purchasing new electronics to get the latest features without considering the efficacy of said features. Audio DSP soundfields are a a good example of this. They sound great on paper but poor in practice. Ironically, one of the best audio surround processing modes I've used is also one of the oldest and easiest to implement: Ambiance extraction via Hafler's L-R, R-L surround system. I used this system with Theta's Casablanca prepro and it's a feature I wouldn't want to live without it now. If memory serves, Dolby ProLogic II works on the same principle but I haven't gotten around to trying it out yet.

I owned the 990 a while back and really enjoyed it. In terms of bang for the buck, I've never owned a better prepro, and it's why I'm holding out for the 978 now. Ironically, a single feature swayed me to the 978 versus the Marantz AV7005 which does most of what I need: Audyssey XT32. I have dual subs and will be building speakers in the near term that will benefit from the higher resolution XT32 offers versus XT.

Having said all this, if the 990 works for its owners today I don't think they should rush out to replace it until the 978 becomes available. Despite its age the 990 holds up very well in terms of build, reliability, and sonics relative to anything near its original SRP.

I just returned from China and Taiwan and checking so far, no supply problems. Remember, most electronic components are made in China and Southeast Asia nowadays, not Japan.

Probably the only danger for the Model 978 is components - if critical chips (which may still be fabbed in Japan) are delayed, that could slow things down.

Yeah, I wish we were talking about extraneous stuff like "soundfields"...but I and I think many of the people in this forum gave up on that sort of thing 15 years ago or more though. We are talking about HDMI capability (including decoding modern formats over it) and video processing*. And then from there you can throw in other nice-to-haves like room correction (something Outlaw itself has been talking about for a couple of years...I have been really just hoping to get sub-eq as part that). NBRQLou has a point.

*I was originally more towards the camp of "why combine video and audio processing into the same device?", but it is hard to resist at this point. In my simple two-room HDMI distribution system, my home theater has become the weak point from a video point of view(!). 'Granted there are other things I could do about that, but I would like to get my HT caught-up by upgrading my 990 (at a reasonable price point) to get everything harmonious again.

Once HDMI entered the equation, video processing in the surround processor became hard to argue against because it became so impractical to run the video and audio sources through separate devices...

I am hanging in there and having patience. I have had the 990/770 combo for about oh five years this June and I am completely satisfied. Anyone who listens to my Home Theater system, music or movies is in awe by the sound and picture. I am sure a lot of my fellow Outlaws have heard similar comments about their Home Theaters or music systems with particular attention to the Outlaw products that are the driving force in their Home Theater/Music systems.
Don't get me wrong I have been strongly anticipating the release date of the 978 since the advertisement of its conception was on this forum, but the products I have from Outlaw are still impressive now as they were when I first purchased them.
The one good thing about Capitalism is that a strong, imaginative company always fines ways of keeping their customers satisfied.

I've been lurking around here for a while waiting to hear news on the eminent release. Sadly, my Lexicon DC-2 just went to AV heaven this weekend. I'll hold out as long as I can, but it sure would be nice to hear something from the folks in the know. Otherwise I'm afraid I'll be stuck with a Denon AVR-4311 or something similar.

You'll likely need to wait at least 3 months, maybe more. Depends on how their testing goes and what impacts the Japanese situation has on any chips possibly manufactured there.

I agree that Outlaw pre/pros have fallen way behind in the features aspect compared to receivers. Other manufacturers - such as Marantz, Onkyo/Integra, and NAD - have kept better pace. So there are still some good options out there for those us in the bargain seperates demographic. But for me going separates was never really about the pre/pro. It was about the amplification. Good amps should last 10-15 years at least and aren't obsolete after 3 years.

That said, I really don't find anything but a handful of the modern features as truly appealing.

HDMI: A worthwhile feature that the industry has completely mishandled. And just when it seems to be settling down - they add 3D. Obviously, today HDMI switching is a must since the convenience of a single cable for video/audio is compelling.

Room Correction: Very worthwhile feature.

HD Audio: Overblown. The "full spec" Dolby Digital available on blu-rays (and supported over coax) is extremely good. I bet most home systems are not detailed enough to resolve the difference between full spec dolby digital and lossless/uncompressed audio. I know that's a bold statement, but I've experienced it msyelf and here's a related article: http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby_TrueHD_DTS-MA_versus_Uncompressed_PCM?page=0%2C0

USB/Ethernet updates: A very worthwhile feature, but mostly because HDMI has been such a mess. Plus I think it has encouraged manufacturer "fix it in the firmware update" behaviors that - overall - are bad for many consumers.

3d capability: I'm years away from caring and even when that happens I don't need my pre/pro to support it. I'll just run the HDMI cable direct from the bluray to the display.

Advanced GUI: My 950's on screen text menu is just as functional and easy to navigate as my LG Bluray's hi-tech, eye-candy ridden GUI.

Obviously, this is all just my opinion and my tastes only but I don't think I'm alone in feeling that the bells and whistles packed into the typical mid-fi+ receiver and some pre/pros has reached the ludicrous state. And I'm hoping a few budget minded manufacturers (e.g. Outlaw) take notice and target us.

Actually, I'm still very pleased with the 990. The major thing that would make me concider upgrading would be a good equalizer/room correction system.
Wifi and real internet connectivity,including bullit proof updates,would be cool, but not esential.
HDMI support woud also be nice, but not essential.
I think most of us have Oppos, or some other Blu-ray player that does a good job with video and audio processing, so , to me , these are pretty much redundant.
Just give us a pre/pro that provides sublime audio , infinite life, and hassel free operation. A simple task N'cest pas?
(you've already done it with amps)

Any further clarity on the parts situation and its potential impact on the 978? We're nearly a month separated from the earthquake in Japan and less than two months from the most recently stated target for the 978's release. I'm assuming 3Q 2011 is more realistic at this point?

No one is talking about their parts shortages yet, but we know they are there and you will see the results by June or even earlier.

Also, the supply of Marantz AV 7005's will dry up very soon for all retailers- both B&M and Internet. This is not conjecture. It is a fact.

Peter

When you say "results" Peter, are you saying the 978 might be release by June, or that you will know something in regards to the parts situation, and how that will affect delivery?

I think by "results" he means "results of the earthquake/tsunami damage on Japanese manufacturing." Until details are available - which plants are affected, how shipping is affected, etc. - it is impossible to predict what will happen to a product like the Model 978.

Well, now even Mother Nature has thrown us a curve, but let's face it, our lust for new stuff should be looked at in perspective alongside the human suffering that is taking place in Japan, as I'm sure it is for the vast majority of us. That being said, Peter's somewhat cryptic comments (cryptic in the sense that there are no actual facts in his brief note regarding the 978), it's pretty easy to draw the conclusion that we will not be seeing this thing any time soon. Combined with his remarks regarding the Marantz, things are looking pretty grim in the pre-pro world - anyone care to comment on why XT32 is so far superior to the room correction offered by the 7005, and why waiting for the ever-elusive 978 is a good idea? I'm not knocking anybody or anything, just trying to decide if I should look elsewhere or hang in for the duration.

Simply put, based on what we know now there is simply no way to know when the 978 will be released. My guess-and that's all it is-would be Q4 of this year. Further, I wouldn't be surprised if the release was very late in Q4.

As for the pending 978 vs. the AV7005; that will have to be an individual decision based on myriad factors, many of which will be speculative and subjective. Examples include, but are not limited to-patience, sound quality differences (I predict a slight-but not Earth shaking advantage for the 978), and the value of XT32. For me, I have dual subs so XT32 is worth waiting for but if I only had one, my gut tells me that the higher EQ resolution of XT32 versus XT will not offer a significant difference in sound quality so I would lean toward the AV7005.

What I will do at this point is wait until CEDIA in September because prepros from the usual AV manufacturer suspects tend to be introduced then. If nothing new or interesting is shown, and there is no clear date for the 978's release, I'll probably go for a AV7005 at that point. Hopefully, either the 978 will be out by then or we'll at least have a fairly firm release date.

Sad, but I tend to think you're probably right. Very tough to speculate though. The product seems to be pretty far along in terms of the R&D aspect. Now it comes to when it can actually be built. I would think you'd need to be at that point before even moving into a beta testing process. The question is when can production begin to resume at some of these chip facilities that experienced damage.

As a side note, my "Registered" date on the left coincides with Outlaw's announcement of the 997. I had been waiting for a couple years for Outlaw to release a processor with HDMI switching and some form of room correction technology. I was intrigued by the 997's inclusion of Trinnov technology and signed up to talk about it. I fear we may hit year 3 since I registered before we see the 978 released. Not pointing any fingers, just an observation...

I dunno, since the 990, one can't help but notice during this time frame, how many generations of the mainstream manufacturers products have come and gone with each adding newer and newer feature sets? How long would they have remained in business with three year and older product on the shelves(assuming it was even still available)? Luckily, Outlaw has many other products to sell to its loyal customers(including myself), however, realistically, the focal point of the business has generally always revolved around its Pre-Pro and AVRs and with this amount of time gone by and nothing on the horizon, to be honest, loyalty has its limits.

Using the "mainstream" manufacturers as a basis for comparison is deceptive for several reasons. First, those manufacturers release new models every year, often just changing one or two minor details and bumping the model number up a notch. Outlaw has never used this business model. Second, the years since the Model 990 have been particularly disruptive industry-wide. Look at how many new generations of HDMI-based processors Parasound has released since the Model 990 (hint: just as many as Outlaw). Look at Lexicon - who is owned by Harmon International, giving them access to "in-house" R&D resources that Outlaw lacks, but has only one HDMI processor (itself a variation on the existing MC-12 platform rather than a ground-up development). There are other examples of companies who have had hard times to varying degrees with HDMI. Hopefully the Model 978 will let Outlaw close that particular chapter.

As usual, your points have merit, however, I guess the operative word here is "hopefully". Unfortunately, with all the time that has gone by here, that is not much to go on.

maybe ATI can build one for them.

I don't feel too bad about assuming that the Model 978 will arrive. If you look at the HDMI delays experienced so far, they are almost entirely tied up in the Model 997 development. The decision to not try to be frontrunners developing an HDMI platform in 2007 or 2008 probably made a ton of sense at the time, and the combination of an existing business relationship (particularly one that produced the highly successful Model 990) and the promise of Trinnov just made it that much more appealing. Unfortunately, that left them sitting for several years waiting for promised hardware to emerge so they could customize it to their needs. The end result wasn't good enough, so they had to start from scratch. The "from scratch" approach is one they've successfully used in the past, so I don't see any reason to expect them to fail this time.

Also, they could have released a Model 997 that didn't do what they expected of it, sold a decent number of them, and used that income to help tide them over while they developed the Model 978 and Model 998. That would have given them an "Outlaw" processor they could point to. They chose not to because it didn't meet their standards. It was a "lose-lose" sort of decision, but I think the consumers probably benefited from their decision and I think in the long run it was the best choice for Outlaw as well.

Dear Outlaw Audio,

How about an update on delivery date window and a progress update on development/testing?

Thank you in advance for your timely reply,

md

Three months to the day since Scott's last announcement, part of which is quoted above, and not a peep since then other than the mentioned "spy photos" which also required a reminder. For those of us still patiently waiting, I think a request for a status update at this time is not unreasonable.

+1

I think we've gotten some subtle updates from PeterT on this very thread. I think the reality is that a 2Q 2011 release date is out and with the availability of certain components from Japan still up in the air, I don't think Outlaw knows when they'll be able to move forward on this project.

With that said, I would love to hear an update as well. In particular, we know they've had a test mule in their possession for a few months now. I would love to hear how the testing is coming along. Not sure how realistic that is though. I know as we waited for the 997 to be released, the updates were not on any specific time intervals. The updates will come as there is something to report.

Crickets...

I kind of wonder if they ever got any units out for Beta testing?

Does anyone know the history on this? Have they told the Saloon when they've gone into beta on prior processors?

I'm pretty sure they don't.

I do wonder if the silence in the 978 forum from a number of members indicates that they can't talk about the 978 right now. Meaning they're beta testers and are under a NDA and would prefer to just not talk at all than risk violating their agreement?

I'm not a beta tester.

Until we get more specific information from Outlaw regarding hardware (DACs, ADC, DSP, etc.), feature sets and operating details, there really isn't much more to talk about.

GaryB - agreed - sadly, the 978 appears to be a dead issue for the time being. Even the forum seems to have run out of things to talk about regarding the near-mythical beast.

I also think the silence is due to a lack of new information to discuss.

Never mind...

I have been waiting for two years. ACK>>>> when oh when.

First, open communications stop.
Second, the parties stop talking.
Third, the relationship begins to breakdown.
Fourth, the parties begin looking elsewhere.
Finally, the parties go their separate ways, file for divorce, and the marriage ends.

Outlaws, please don't let it end this way......

Talk to us.

Of course the silence could be a test of the cloaking device...

Oops wrong forum, excuse me....:)

It is sad but I have moved on. Simply cannot wait and did not wait. Too many good products out there. I have the 950 still but I could not wait forever for HDMI from Outlaw.
Good luck to those waiting and waiting and waiting.
Successful companies must provide a succession of products to compete in this market place.
I love Outlaw's customer service but you must have something to service.

Just curious, what did you buy to replace your Outlaw 950?

I'm looking at the Denon 4311CI and the Anthem MRX-300 right now. I'm just not sure how high of quality the DACs and analog sections are in these two models.

That said, I would love to hand my money over to the Outlaws right now for a 998, but it's looking less and less likely that they'll even have the 978 out before 2012 at this rate.

"Moving on to the inevitable question of "when," it is first important to explain that in order to include MultiEQ XT32 it was necessary to upgrade the core DSP engine. That, in turn, required new board layouts on the hardware side and significant changes to the software/firmware code. As a result of those changes, we've needed to push things back a few months, and the samples that we would have otherwise received late last year are now due to hit our labs at the Hideout in March. Based upon that, the release date is now targeted for late in the first half of this year."

We are now approaching the end of the first half of this year.

I think the quote was made before the Earthquake hit Japan and the availability of parts was in question. PeterT gave us some insight after the disaster.

Raider,
I too, am curious of what you went with and how you like it. I also have been waiting and waiting and waiting, but it's just been too long and with the lack of progress reported I don't see the point in waiting any longer. I want to enjoy my system through something other than only what my Oppo will output. I may even go with a Marantz product through Outlaw if it's what I decide to go with in the end depending on availability.

I am very happy with my Onkyo PR-SC886 I bought through Outlaw and the service has also been first rate.

Outlaw, oh outlaw, when shall we see your toys again.

I've couldn't wait any longer, bought elsewhere. My 970 bit the dust and the repair cost was too high considering the price of the modern options. Technology has improved, the prices for equivalent quality have plunged, and Outlaw didn't have a product. I'd intended to upgrade as soon as the 978 was released but the unending delays are apparently an Outlaw problem, not a Trinnov problem. And I must say, I'm enjoying my new gear. If the 998 is ever actually released I may consider it, if the Trinnov proves to be all it's been advertised to be. I won't be buying the 978.

Given that it is June and Outlaw's last official time-table was the end of the second quarter, I think it is time for another official update. I think an update by the end of the month should be expected.

I realize that the disaster in Japan would affect beta testing and production, but an update as to how development is coming along would be nice. Are we done with the design and just waiting for parts to show up or what?

I don't think they're done with the R&D part of the equation yet. That's really frustrating, because even though I'm a newly-registered member, I've been lurking for quite some time, and bought my first Outlaw product (the 7700) in May, in anticipation of mating it with the 978 in June/July.

I think an update on development status is a reasonable request at this point. Hell, I'll probably buy the 978 whenever it comes out, even if I've bought something to tide me over in the meantime, but I'd like to know if I should purchase something this week, or wait another three months. Three months I could live with; a year, no. The really hard part for me is, what if PeterT tells us they're going to start taking pre-orders in September for delivery in November? Ugh.

Buy something now and trade up when the 978 comes out. Denon and Marantz have some great stuff out there as well as Onkyo. Why wait and torture yourself. Besides, wouldn't you rather listen to your system and read about any pitfalls likely to be encountered with the new gear. Maybe look for a used last years top of the line model and hunker down for the release date to be determined.

Good advice. After ... jeeze ... 7? ... happy years with the Outlaw 950 I'm moving on. In this case, it pays to be a luddite, cause I went with a used NAD M15. I just don't need all the other features packed into these pre/pros nowadays. If the reviews are accurate, the M15 has the type of analogue section that I desire. And the two HDMI inputs will be enough for me to get by on for a while.

I'll be keeping an eye out for the new processors from Outlaw. If they are good enough I might leap back to them eventually, but I won't be in the first wave. With the M15 I'm buying the ability to be patient and wait for the best time to get a truly modern processor. From past experience I know that I am not a good early adopter.

Peter, it's time for an update.

I'm picking up an Integra DHC-80.2 from my local dealer on Saturday. I've been following all the various problems associated with it on multiple threads at AVS Forum, and have checked the serial number against the numbers of the units with the acknowledged manufacturer's defects, and have verified that it is NOT one of the affected units. So I'm crossing my fingers and taking the plunge.

When the 978 comes out, as I mentioned above, I'll probably purchase it and give it a 30-day test drive. If the sound quality exceeds that of the Integra, I'll keep it and sell the Integra. So keep your eyes on this space -- you may be able to get a pristine DHC-80.2 for a reasonable price down the road ...

Looks like a nice unit, good luck with it. Let us know how it sounds. Is the Integra DHC-80.2 the same unit as the Onkyo PR-SC5508? Rear panel photos of the units are identical.

Yes, it's the same unit. Only differences I've found are three -- 1) the faceplate (the Integra is more stylized, and has more control buttons visible on the front; Onkyo hides the control buttons behind a drop-down plate, but is boxier look); 2) the SC5508 has a "Pure Audio" mode that disables some other circuitry on command when playing some analog inputs; 3) the Onkyo comes with a 2-year warranty, while the Integra comes with a 3-year warranty.

I was able to negotiate a better price on the Integra with my local dealer than I could find on the Onkyo. And I like the more stylized faceplate.

keep us updated, i have been following same threads on avs. With out much of an update here i don't want to hold out much longer

I am in the same boat for last several months, watching 5508 and 80.2 AVSforums very closely. By the time I finish my current deployment to Afghanistan, I am going to update my 990 with something else. Hopefully Outlaw comes out with the 978 within couple of months, but otherwise my next pre/pro upgrade will be something other than Outlaw.

for the benefit of hdmi 1.4 there was a loss of other things personally I'g go the 998 if I were you..

Waiting for the 998 might be a long wait at this point since no one has any idea when it might hit the market. The Onkyo and Marantz/Denon stuff is available as soon as you get back and hopefully the 978 will be too. Keep us updated on your choice as we are always interested in new systems.

He may mean the 978, which is still an somewhat uncertain wait.

I am waiting to see 978 in the market. It will be nice to see 998 be introduce to rest of us but I doubt it will be anytime soon. Meanwhile, I am looking into if it is worth while to implement Audyssey DSX wide/height channel into my HT room. From installation stand point, it will not be too difficult to install height channel speakers but wide might be little difficult for my setup. Of course if I get 978, that is not even option.

My current 990 is still working without problem but I really do need to update HDMI capability soon. Room correction is very interesting concept and would like to see if it is improvement in my system. I have my money saved up for next pre/pro upgrade for a while and I really thought 978 was going to be my next upgrade before I left for this deployment earlier this year. Meanwhile all the big electronic giants introduce their next pre/pro like every year it seems like.

Emotiva UMC-1 was another one I closely followed. Even though it shared its many faults and difficulties updating its firmware but at least Emotiva can call it it's their own pre/pro unlike Outlaw's current situation. They do have many very loyal happy customers for UMC-1 even with well documented bugs among other users. Their next pre/pro is XMC-1 but it is anybody's guess when it will actually be available to consumers. UMC-1 has been on the market for over a year now and with their latest firmware, it should be fairly solid without too much glitches.

So if I have a chance to purchase my next pre/pro now, following products are my list to consider:

Integra DHC 80.2 / Onkyo PR-SC5508
Marantz AV 7005
Denon AVR 4311CI
Emotiva UMC-1

Audio performance is my priority and would like to stick with separates instead of receivers but Denon 4311ci makes strong candidate since it can process surround sounds with all 11.2 channels engaged if you wish. From its general concepts of 978, I really like how they concentrate its audio performance instead of bells and whistles. I will be perfectly happy to stay with my current 7.2 channels HT if I can have a pre/pro that concentrates on sound quality foremost thus waiting for 978 to be available. Who knows when 978 will be ready but I am still hopeful it will be ready within couple of months. Once I have a chance to purchse my next pre/pro, I will update here with my initial impression with the product.

I just ordered the Integra 80.2, it will arrive on Monday. Man I really wanted an Outlaw but I have waited as long as possible; June is half over with no release date and what's worse no comment on this product for months!

I have upgraded my entire Home Theater and really need the HDMI connectivity, my new TV arrives in a week and I would have to get multiple HDMI inputs ISF Calibrated without a HDMI processor so I had to make my move. I still have my 7700 and never plan on replacing it so there will always be an Outlaw product in my rack.
For someone who just dropped 2 large on a state of the art Pre/Pro I should be more excited and Integra makes a fine product, but it's not an Outlaw and Outlaw's products & Internet Business Model got me started in high-end Audio & Video so its actually mixed in with a little sadness.

I am right behind you. If this is not released by the time my house closes i will be doing the same. I won't look back for 5-10 years. Heck I have a denon from 2006 now.
sigh.

I've been waiting for about that long for an Outlaw pre/pro with HDMI switching...so my denon has you beat by about 6 years.

Add me to the list of those who have bailed - I did kind of hedge my bet by picking up a used AV 8003, so it won't be a heartbreaker if and when Outlaw "cowboys up" and starts selling a pre-pro again, and I just can't resist. I also have a 755 and 2 200's, so probably won't be leaving the Outlaw family for a while, but enough is enough - delays are not nearly as bad as silence, and that's all I've heard for several months. Rock on, gunslingers...;-)

I have been one of the most ardent proponents of the 978 from the get-go and am still holding out for it but the continued deafening silence from Outlaw is really quite baffling. Frankly, I'm beginning to suspect that Outlaw wants us to gradually come to the conclusion that the 978 has been cancelled, so it will be less of a shock when they announce that such is indeed the case.

If I'm wrong, PeterT or Scott, tell me so. It's time.

LOL well my prior denon was from 1997, i only picked up the current one to tide me over till the successor to the 990 was introduced back in 06. then i was going to put this in the garage for music. sigh....

My Take is this: I have not bought a Pre-Pro since the 950 which sold a few years later hoping to get the newer models. It seamed that there was all ways bugs, so I switch over to the receiver as a pre-pro method and have not looked back. Emo has been hit with bugs as with most of the smaller companies. Even Onkyo and Denon latest offerings had a few bugs, but like the 4311 the bugs were fix. These are DSP based machines now and I guess it is a lot harder to bring a product like these to market as fast as the giant companies with hundreds of people working the issues.
Maybe Blasphemy for saying, but maybe Outlaw should connect with Marantz or Onkyo (since Outlaw sells their products time to time) and have them make a new pre-pro with any of Outlaws requirements, brand it Outlaw. Outlaw probably could bring new products like these to market much faster and with less bugs and be able to keep further up to date with the barrage of features that keep coming out.
I am still rooting for the 998 to come out.

I think that connection has already happened with Marantz or rather D and M Holdings. But of course it is just speculation.

I have my doubts about D&M Holdings or any of their companies making such an arrangement. There's no incentive for them to do so.

The only incentive for any company to make an arrangement is to make a profit. Some company has to be building this product but who.... I was suggesting D and M Holdings because the original pictures showed a display very similar to Denon's mid level recievers. But we will have to wait and see.

I still think the likelihood of a company like either D&M Holdings or ONKYO partnering with Outlaw in this way is vanishingly small.

As for the D&M connection based on the front panel displays, the similarity could simply be that both are sharing a common supplier for that component. D&M Holdings is in business to make money, but they're also a large corporate entity headquartered overseas. The potential profit for them to invest some R&D resources into working with Outlaw on a unique product and then building it in relatively modest quantities (by their standards) is fairly small. Keep in mind that aside from the AV7005, the only D&M Holdings processors we've seen have been either $2,000+ Marantz units or a $7,500 Denon unit. One could argue that Denon's been leaving money on the table for years by not taking each year's flagship receiver and stripping out amps to make a processor. (I've seen plenty of people say exactly that for as long as I can remember.) The truth is that they're not interested in that. Likely the only reason Marantz has offered even a single processor at any given time is pressure from their dealer networks who can help justify the modest cost of creating a separate model. The potential earnings for D&M Holdings simply aren't great enough for their corporate big-wigs to depart from their past policies and partner with a company they don't own. They'd rather sell more Denon receivers to folks who will use them as processors, taking all the profit, than take a share of the profit on Outlaw processor sales.

The same is true for ONKYO, for similar reasons. It could be even more extreme in their case, as an Outlaw processor stands to be a competitor of the Onkyo and Integra processors. I would expect them to be able to get a good bit more profit per unit out of either of those (both of which have list prices in the $2,500 range) than they would out of taking a cut of the profit on an Outlaw processor with a price that's likely to be closer to $1,400 or $1,500.

There are manufacturing partners out there, of course, but I wouldn't expect any of them to be "brand names" we're used to seeing on store shelves.

HDMI killed the internet direct pre/pros?

It sure seems to be working out that way. Even the boutique companies are having a hard time keeping up. Not sure if this was by design or by accident.

I gave up on these projected pre-amps quite a while ago. The same updates were getting old. "next quarter", "next spring", "next year" got old after YEAR after YEAR.

Its very sad; a very good company amking a great product for a really good price, unable to deliver an electronic product that is mass made by numerous companies worldwide.

I don't think it was by design - that assumes too much forethought in the development of HDMI as a standard, and if there's one thing that they can't be accused of with HDMI, it is forethought.

I think HDMI contributed to the problem, but I think there have been other factors that have made it hard for folks like Outlaw, Sherwood, Parasound, B&K, and similar smaller companies. HDMI is a tough nut to crack. Add room correction. Add a significant video processing solution (Reon, ABT, Marvell, etc.). That's two more components that, if done properly, are similarly challenging and fast-changing technologies to assess and implement. Then you have to decide what you're going to do about the other features that people are starting to expect now. New processing modes that expand beyond 7.1 will either require additional DAC channels or force you to select between back surround channels and front height/wide channels. Network capabilities like DLNA, Netflix, Pandora, and Amazon VOD are even harder to evaluate than video processing vendors, and costly in R&D efforts to develop. (Not to mention some leave you at the mercy of a third party, like Netflix, who may decide to push you down the list for certification so a new PS3 update or a new player from Panasonic or Sony can get certified because those clients have larger customer bases.)

I still think it can be done if you can hook up with the right partners for manufacturing and design. (Because smaller companies like Outlaw simply aren't going to have the in-house staff to write this sort of code, they will need consultants to assist with parts of it. There are presumably some companies out there that have had the opportunity to gain some useful experience in these matters over the last several years.) That being said, I don't envy them the task of actually doing it...

As I mentioned before I am still rooting for the 998, however I am most concerned about this Pre-Pro due to Trinnov for these reasons:
The Newcastle R-972 has not created the buzz you would think if Trinnov was as good as billed. I know the professional versions of Trinov's capabilities is well known but getting it down to a consumer receiver and pre-pro has been challenging to say the least. The new R-876 is to be release this coming July, but I have heard absolutely nothing about a product this close to release. I have heard nothing in the way of other manufactures bringing it out, no Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, etc- no one except Outlaw. It may be due to licensing, but you would think if Trinnov is that great, then more folks would be looking at it. I do believe that in the Engineering and labs departments it is, just heard absolutely nothing. I am afraid that the scaled down version of Trinnov may not deliver as hoped and I would not want Outlaw to bring it out if it does not live up to what is expected.

Although I initially wanted to get the 997 because of Trinnov, I have come to the realization that it is likely way overkill for what many of us need for our room correction and isn't now going to be a factor in any upgrade to my system. If your listening space is like most, it is already pretty good and could get better by small physical adjustments to the equipment or the room. If for some reason you need to make your back left speaker sound like the right front speaker then Trinnov will likely be a good thing. I primarily thought the ability to save different setups was interesting for those times you are not sitting in the sweet spot.

Yes, the unintended consequence of HDMI is making it hard for anyone to keep up. Small companies are likely to be able to bring out a new device much less often and it will hurt them severely if not done right. Although we would like the 978 to hit the streets late last year or sooner, Outlaw has to get it right or it could really be the last thing they ever develop.

From what I've read of the R-972 and from how Outlaw treated it, I still don't think it was a good demonstration of Trinnov implemented on consumer gear. Put simply, the R-972 appears to have been a flop that was plagued with bugs and concerns about whether Trinnov was really doing what it was meant to do. I suspect that the Model 998 will arrive when Outlaw and Trinnov both believe it is working as Trinnov intended.

I wonder if the R-876 will actually arrive next month. The R-972 was first announced at a CES one January for release that following September. That was almost two years before we heard the first whisper of the Model 997. The R-972 was delivered years behind schedule, with painful side effects for Outlaw as well as Sherwood. The R-965 that preceded it was victim of similar delays. There are a few posts online suggesting that the R-876 was actually cancelled back in April, too, and at present the Sherwood Newcastle site lists the R-972 and R-774 but no mention of any R-**6 models. That doesn't bode well.

Here's hopping that the Outlaws can produce a couple of home runs, Don't need any more strike outs. If the 998 comes true, then we will have something to crow about. Keeping fingers crossed.

Good point. No need to construct a grand conspiracy when it can be explained by simple incompetence.



At the risk of sounding like a broken record ....

Some of those other "factors" are only factors if the small companies continue to engage in the feature war with the big boys. Outlaw, Emotiva, etc. should give up that fight and give up those consumers who care about such things. IMO, small companies like Outlaw need a different value proposition that - yes - will likely not woo a lot of mainstream consumers but will net them some niche customers.

Personally, I agree entirely with you, and have been sounding like a broken record about it for some time now. I still prefer to have a number of these features kept separate from the processor entirely. You can't separate it all, though. Video processing, for example, is rapidly becoming a "basic feature" of receivers and processors. Separate video processing options are less widely used now. Fortunately, there are more reasonably packaged chipset options available that can be integrated with video switching (something that became a "basic feature" a while back). And room correction really belongs in the processor, since it is best applied in the digital domain.

Agree that room correction belongs in the pre/pro. As does all the Dolby/DTS format decoding.

I never understood the desire for video processing to be in the pre/pro though. I mean, I understand it as a nice to have feature, but don't understand why anyone would pick a pre/pro based on it's video processing quality when you've got video processing in your source (blu-ray/DVD players, cable box, etc.) and TV.

My TV and "cable box" are horrible at video processing. I can't wait for a pre/pre that has some solid video processing built in. Would I pick one pre/pro over another simply based on how well it does on that front? All other features being equal, of course I would. Chances are the 978 and any competitors to the 978 all do a better job at video processing than your TV and cable box too.

Quality primarily, although convenience is a factor as well.

Video processing in cable boxes is typically dreadful, and sometimes not even that good. Video processing in players varies greatly, and processing in TV's varies even more widely. Having a central component with really good processing means you can output a signal at the display's native resolution (eliminating or minimizing the need for additional processing in the display) and disable processing wherever possible or practical in source components. The Model 978, for example, will use an Anchor Bay video processing chip (probably either 2010 or 2015, I forget if we've heard a specific chipset or not). The OPPO Digital DV-983H and BDP-83 both use the ABT2010 (although early 983H units used a pair of chips to achieve the equivalent of this one-chip implementation) and were considered reference-quality sources in part because of the capabilities of that chipset (aided by OPPO's implementation of the ABT).

There are standalone video processors that offer similar abilities along with video switching. The DVDO Edge, for example, uses the ABT2010. It sells for $800, and it is one of the more affordable video processor options available. Partly because of the proliferation of video processing in surround receivers and processors (and some higher-quality sources and displays), the market for standalone video processors has stayed small.

Aside from a few exotic surround processors, nobody is taking the risk of developing surround processors without video switching anymore. Market pressure is too great to fight against, particularly since we've got to feed our HDMI video signals through the processor. Once video switching is included, it is now necessary for that switching to include transcoding between input formats so that a single video output can be used for composite/s-video, component, and HDMI sources. Doing that requires some rudimentary form of video processing, especially when you're making the jump from analog to digital. (HDMI doesn't support 480i, thus requiring deinterlacing of 480i analog sources to the minimum HDMI resolution of 480p.) At that point, it starts to make sense to go ahead and do some reasonably capable video processing at the receiver or processor - after all, you've already included most of the features of a standalone video processor.

It's rare that I find myself disagreeing with you, but this time I'll have to, at least partially. HDMI fully supports digitally-sourced 480i, as exploited by many of OPPO's recent disc players. With most, if not all, of broadcast SDTV also now in digital format (certainly in the U.S., anyway) the ability to process analog-based 480i has become somewhat moot.

I can guarantee you that the 978 does not do a better job at video processing than my TV. Not because my TV is so great, but because the 978 doesn't exist. And that's kinda the point. All these features sound great in the abstract. But if they combine to create a platform that only the big manufacturers can hope to successfully implement in a timely fashion, then our demands for these features will squeeze the Outlaws and others like them out of the pre/pro market. And I do not want that.

That said, I doubt video processing is the sticking point. But if it is, I say cut it.

+1 here! Pre/pros from the beginning have been almost exclusively for AUDIO pre-amping/processing. With modern DVD players - OPPO, for instance, video processing is best left to them.

Given the fact that it exists in test mule form, its probably a little late to cut it. I also think it would put the 978 at a major competitive disadvantage. I think we would all like to see the 978 come to market, but past that, we would like Outlaw to be around to support the 978. Releasing a non-competitive pre/pro wont help them survive in a competitive environment.

The flip side is that a good ABT2010 processing solution will do a better job than 99% of the TV's made in the last five years and 99.999% of the TV's made prior to that.


I also doubt that video processing is a problem. ABT was a pretty good partner for OPPO Digital when they were developing the 983H and BDP-83, so I would expect pretty reasonable support from them here as well. Cutting it isn't really an option, though - both because of the delays required to re-tool and replace it with something else (need deinterlacing) and the need to be competitive.

On video processing specifically I simply disagree that the lack of video processing automatically makes the 978 pre/pro uncompetitive. But that's a matter of opinion and I can agree to disagree. I do agree its probably too late to cut it specifically from the 978. My "cut it" comment was intended to mean cut it from the general Outlaw pre/pro playbook (if it's a sticking point).

I also read gonk's helpful explanation that video processing is a natural progression from video switching. I'm a bit skeptical of that - to me his explanation sounded more like a slippery slope than a natural progression. However, the last part of his explanation argues that the technology has commoditized to the point where the chipsets are mostly self contained and easily integrated. And that is persuasive to me, but that also removes video processing from the list of features that makes it difficult for small companies to compete with the big boys.

But I don't want to get hung up on the specific example of video processing in the 978. The general theme is that Outlaw cannot hope to win a feature war with the big boys. And as long as the typical mainstream consumer demands feature bling, Outlaw cannot hope to woo the typical mainstream consumer. So if they want to stay in the pre/pro market (which is debatable in itself), they need a unique value proposition to entice a relatively small niche of loyal customers.

I believe you. So ... TVs can be perfectly competitive with barebones video processing but processers/receivers cannot. Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?

Depends on the market. Remember Pioneer's Kuro line? They had excellent video processing and really good plasma technology - most of it developed by Pioneer. They are part of that 1%. The problem was that the other 99% included a lot of really, really inexpensive stuff (Vizio, etc.) that included only the necessary functionality to get video signals converted to the displays' native resolutions. Those displays that just did the bare necessary video processing are part of the reason that the standalone video processor developed in the first place. It's why early HDTV's were so consistently bashed when it came to displaying SD sources (consumer-grade video processing tech was still too new and wasn't up to the challenge). There are a lot of projectors and flat panels around that do offer really good processing, and in certain market sectors that processing is an expected function. Most of us aren't the target audience for those products, though, and the more affordable displays are often the ones that need help the most. Displays that wanted to be counted as equal to the Kuro panels had to have equally good processing. Displays that wanted to sell in large quantities on Black Friday were the reason people started gravitating to surround receivers that included a Reon or ABT chip.


Let's walk again through the logic for video processing to see why there basically has to be something there, because it also shows where your "keep it simple" argument can be applied effectively.

If Outlaw were to eliminate video switching from the processor, video processing would cease to be a concern. Simple. However, the whole point of new processors today is to support HDMI connectivity. HDMI merges audio and video into a single connection, whether we like it or not. As soon as DVI and IEEE.1394 both failed to take hold in HDMI's shadow, it became inevitable that splitting audio and video functions apart at the surround processor would be almost impossible. We've got to get HDMI into the processor, and then we have to get HDMI video back out to go to a display. The most economical way to do that is to switch HDMI inputs. If we're only switching HDMI inputs, that's one thing - all the HDCP handshaking issues are present, but you could potentially keep it "simple." How many people will have a system that is exclusively HDMI, though? And how many who have some legacy video components (or want the ability to have them) will accept switching the video separately? Some people would like that approach because it makes for a clean signal path. Most customers won't see it that way, though. They want to have the analog video sources transcoded to HDMI so they can connect a single HDMI cable to their TV. Once you do that, you've introduced video processing. It could be very basic (a video ADC chip that can handle anything 480i, 720p, and 1080i and a deinterlacer so you can get at least 480p digital output), but it is basically a functionally complete video processor. The only question is whether to go cheap on that - use a chipset so anonymous that you don't say what it is because nobody cares - or spend a bit more for something that can actually help your marketing team. You're investing money and development time either way. One may cost more per unit built, but the development effort range for that choice may be anywhere from only modestly more to much more depending on what you want to include in the software.

An example could help here. I just helped a co-worker replace a Rotel RSP-1068 processor and RMB-1075 amp with a Marantz SR5005. One of the things he liked most was that he can now leave his TV set to a single HDMI input and the receiver will switch his two video sources (one component, one HDMI) automatically. It is enough to allow his wife to be willing to operate the system (using a good universal remote that they've had for as long as the RSP-1068) without his help. Only the basic controls are necessary to satisfy users like this - who will end up being a large percentage of the customer base for a product like the Model 978 or Model 998 - so there's no need to develop something like Anthem's AVM50v and D2v offer. In fact, going that far is probably going to be a bigger support hassle in the long run, as most users aren't going to be able to work through all those extra controls. Video processing is important - but it doesn't necessary need to be a Sigma Designs processing section with a thousand and one tweaks available separately for each input (as is offered by Anthem). It just needs decent performance and some basic options. Without that, though, there is a real risk of failure when it comes time to sell enough units to make a profit.


I think that once we move past the new "core" feature set (HDMI connectivity; some legacy digital audio, analog audio, and analog video connectivity; audio decoding and matrix surround processing modes; video switching with some essential video processing capabilities; and some flavor of automatic speaker setup and room correction software), you get into a lot of things that have to be carefully evaluated before trying to include. That "core" list is fairly daunting for a smaller company, but it's hard to conceive of a processor omitting any of them without being established as a specific niche sort of product. (The upcoming ICBM-2 could be considered such a niche product, with two 9.1 inputs and an optional volume control that make it act essentially as an analog surround pre-amp with bass management.) Some things can be managed. For example, integrating a good video chip with a pretty solid foundation (like the ABT2010/2015) and implementing a basic set of controls along with a full bypass isn't as costly as integrating it as a full-blown, full-function "external processor in the box" while allowing folks who really want to go that far to use the bypass mode and add a high-end external processor. Each time you omit something, somebody is going to object, of course. Leave out network media support? Someone will tell you that they just took the processor off their shopping list. Omit Netflix streaming or Pandora? Same deal. Scrap web-based control? Ditto. Include an eight-channel DAC instead of a ten-channel or 12-channel DAC, forcing PLIIz or other "front height" or "front wide" processing modes to be used by disabling back surrounds? Same problem. It's all a balancing act, with about ten times as many variables to consider now than was the case five or six years ago. You and I both would agree that leaving some of those functions out of the mix is a smart decision, and for the most part I think the Model 978 as we've seen it described has followed similar logic. Others will, of course, feel differently.

Just a quick question or thought: First off I am not plugged into the business side of the industry enough to know the actual development timelines,(However in the industry that I was a part of the IC manufacturers would have pre-release announcements, seminars of upcoming products and design help to start the design process way before our product with the new features would be announced) but is there anyway that the Outlaws could know of upcoming "features" , such as DTS Neo-X, a year or so ahead of announcement so it could be developed IE: DTS to manufactures " We have DTS Neo-X ready for licensing, here is what you need to know to implement, announcement in X time from now, get developing?

Gonk,

Don't laugh but I'm still using a Hitachi rear projection TV That I bought 7 years ago. I am using a Kenwood 8004 Trio Amp that I replaced $100 worth of Electrolytic parts for my Two front Channels (Using Two Polyglass Vifa Drivers with a Seas Aluminum/Mag Tweater). I am using another European/Japanese Sony 500 ES amp for my surrounds for a pair 15 year old B&W 600 Speakers. I Bought the Outlaw 970 preamp 2 years ago to replace my older sony DA-50ES Receiver which finally died. Now mind you this is no slouch of a receiver because it was made before Sony started cutting corners. I am currently running this in a quad speaker configuration with a phantom center channel. I thought I was seriously going to have to upgrade all of our equipment due to all the new HDMI requirements. Guess what...for Christmas we got a new panasonic Bluray player that Changed everything. We hooked up the Blu-ray player and the DTS signals were processed extremely well...so much so that now the speakers basically disappear when we put in the higher fidelity Bluray (A very immersive sound field emerges) as well as even better picture quality with greater control over the aspect ratio. We had to buy an external HDTV tuner for the older HDTV. We are currently using all Component video connections. After hearing about all the failure rates of the newer plasmas and huge costs of going LED LCD we are sitting on the sideline because the picture quality of my old Hitachi TV can only be exceeded by the Very best of the new LED TVs. To make a long story short the older Outlaw 970 has done an admirable job in decoding audio signals using the optical digital cable and we are in no rush to buy any new equipment until the Hitachi dies. Basically, I'm saying we can now live with what we got with a $150 Bluray player that improved our entire system. Everything shined with an improvement of just one component in our system. Amazing really. :>)

As a matter of fact I own a ten year old Toshiba 1080i RPCRT that is still working beautifully and until it dies, I have no interest whatsoever in any of the new technologies. As far as the restrictions of component video related to HDMI, there is a solution to this issue. You might want to check out the following websites: "HDFury.com" and/or "Moomecard.com". It would mean ordering either of them from Taiwan, however, either of these allow an HDMI to component connection to your monitor PLUS the added advantage of you now being able to use the HDMI connection out of your Blu-Ray player to maximize its video processing capabilities and upscaling of standard DVDs not available through a component connection. Also should your monitor continue to work and you desire to upgrade your AVR/Pre-Pro to attain (Dolby TruHD and DTS Master Audio) through the AVR, either of these will enable you to do this as well.

whether it be 978 or the 998, I think they should make the unit modular, make the unit a big as possible, hdmi 1.4 10-16/4 or atleast expandable to this amount over time..

with input daughter boards I would say should support s-video component 5.1-7.2 analog and toslink.. 2nd-4th zone output to 7.2 rca or xlr.. 11.3 in primary zone..

up-convert all soundtracks to hd audio where possible...

3d support as an upgrade feature at some stage....

pro cals should be standard...

price range 2,500-5,000..

the biggest failure with the umc-1 is the lack of support with hd codecs, I feel with the this unit emo dropped the ball in a big way, they seem to softcode firmware to suit suit missing hardware sometims it works sometimes it doesn't..


the idea of more hdmi removes the need to add a secondary AV switch similar to the denon hdmi expansion switch or mounting gear on a 8x4-12x8 distribution pre-amp

as for tv's as long as it works be happy with what you got..

gonk if you ever think upgrading led you might to consider buying in bulk it will likely be be cheaper if you you do..

If we ever want to see it on the street we need to stick to what it is. At this point they can't redesign it. It has to hit the street as is and hopefully that will be soon. I don't think we will see it before September but I hope I am wrong.

Not going to happen. It's been tried by others, but doesn't seem to work. Problem is you have chipsets that support a lot of these features and it would be too difficult to do.

Why? It's not going to improve the sound. Compressed audio doesn't have the information needed to make it high definition.

This would just come along with HDMI 1.4a
Are you referring to Audyssey XT Pro and Color Calibrations?
ouch!
agreed, essential

How many?

What are the odds on an update Thursday since the latest deadline is/was June 30?

Greater than zero, but not much greater....

There have been modular processors before. None have succeeded in the marketplace, few have ever received new daughter boards after their initial release, and all have been more expensive than their non-modular competitors. It simply isn't smart for a company to do, even if it does appeal to consumers who want to be able to "customize" a piece of hardware to suit personal tastes. The quirks of mass production mean that it is simply cheaper to get some features you won't use. And as discussed before (repeatedly), a multichannel second zone is cost prohibitive because it requires duplicating all the most expensive parts of the processor for each secondary zone. It's easier (and cheaper) to just buy a second surround processor or receiver for the other multichannel zone.


What does this even mean? If a source originates as lossy audio, nothing a processor can do will revert to the lossless source that was used to create it. At the same time, as soon as a lossy source is decoded, it is in PCM format. What are you going to "up-convert" that raw audio signal to?


They are planning to include HDMI v1.4 support at launch, which means they'll have 3D support from the outset. At this point, no matter how much I get frustrated with HDMI's endless progression, releasing today with anything other than HDMI v1.4 with 3D video pass-through support is not really an option. Offering it as a future upgrade would be a step back, and an unwise one at that.


Building in HDMI switching with multiple simultaneously-active outputs is crazy, plain and simple. HDMI wasn't built for it, the cost would be significant, and most users simply have no use for it. There may be one user out of a thousand (if that many) who has a valid reason to want to do it, and that user is faced with the unenviable task of wrestling with HDMI's inherent restrictions in order to make it work. The rest of us are better off sticking with the scheme Outlaw's already planned for the Model 978 (and that Onkyo, Denon, Marantz, and others have also been using): two outputs, with one active at a time.


Huh? Do you mean upgrading my TV to an LED-backlit LCD? I like my existing LCD and don't plan to change until it fails or something appreciably better comes along. Right now nothing tempts me. Gzubeck was talking about upgrading from his seven-year-old RPTV to something newer, not me - and I think his decision to stick with what he has is perfectly reasonable. Not sure why buying in bulk would help either of us any, though...

For now I think I will stick with the component connections. I like the Aspect ratio correction that puts a black mat around the available space on my 4X3 Hitachi. I don't have a widescreen Hitachi so there are very light grey bars on the top and bottom for the 1080i signal. When it comes in 480p using the entire screen I get to use the Bluray player's optional aspect correction. Thanks anyway for the info because it could be useful down the road if I need an HDMI to component output to my Hitachi TV with a new preamp or receiver. The Picture quality is still very good (better than DVD) with 480p output sitting 8 feet away from the screen. The biggest improvement is by far the Lossless DTS signal the bluray puts out. The 970 sounds a notch better when an improved signal is sent to the 970 preamp. I wonder at what bitrate the 970 decodes the Bluray DTS signal cause whatever its doing it sounds very life like (not cool or warm sounding).

I had a 4x3 Zenith HDTV for a number of years. It was a direct-view set, not RPTV, but was actually a very nice display. My sister-in-law has it now, and it still works well after over seven years of service.


The only way to output lossless DTS from a player into the 970 is via multichannel analog. If you're using optical or coaxial, you are actually getting lossy DTS - but typically at the highest possible bit rate offered by DTS. These high-bitrate DD and DTS tracks really do a pretty good job, even if they aren't truly lossless, and the 970's decoding is then fed into the good DAC and analog section, which certainly helps.

Can we get an update?

Whoo hoo! Luddites unite!!

I've got 8 year old DLP projector (720p) and a $80 dollar bluray player (which has a great bluray and DVD picture, BTW).

"Pretty good job" is an understatement IMO. I couldn't tell the difference between it and the the lossless audio and its one of the reasons I returned the Oppo BDP-83 and instead opted for a cheap commmodity bluray player sans analog outs. I think its a little known fact that the "true spec" (but still lossy) DD and DTS typically available on Bluray over "legacy" digital connections (coaxial/optical) is a significant upgrade over the standard DVD lossy audio.

Why I'll continue to wait for the 978:

1 - I'm using a Pioneer SC-05 as a pre/pro to my B&K Ref. 200.7, so I'm in no hurry.

2 - Outlaw isn't stupid. In the $1500 - $2000 price range, already available are the Marantz & Onkyo/Integra units. By all accounts both are terrific performers. Outlaw has to know they have to come up with something really special to compete with these two; or else the 978 may be dead out of the gate. After about $2000, the price of pre/pros seems to skyrocket. Outlaw has promised state of the art DACS & flawless operation - if they pull this off I think they will have a true giant slayer.

3 - I am aware that unless you base your pre/pro off of an existing AVR chassis, it takes time to dial it in. Bryston's new unit (will list for $9500) was first announced late in 2008. It still is not for sale. On another forum someone from Bryston said they had been waiting for 3 months for Dolby/DTS approvals.

All true... so just what is it that prevents Outlaw from dropping in with an occasional short post to reassure us that they're continuing to make progress and that we're not waiting for nothing? It's been more than 5 months since there's been any official indication of the 978's status!

Gonk, do you believe they will still release the 978?

Yes, I do. Delays are a part of life in this industry, and we can make a very long list of examples of such delays that will include just about every notable mid-fi and hi-fi manufacturer you can think of. Many of the delayed products that would populate that list went on to be highly successful. The Model 950 experienced delays that were quite a bit longer than we've seen from the Model 978, as did the Model 1070. Both were delivered. The Model 997 would have been delivered, too, if it had been up to Outlaw's standards.

Some of the Model 978's perceived late-ness may be related to the fact that it was originally meant to be the platform that replaced the Model 997, whereas now it is serving as the successor to the Model 990 instead - and the gap in time between those two is quite a bit greater. Sherwood's receiver version of the Model 997 started shipping to customers around maybe November 2009, so Outlaw could have been shipping 997's over 18 months ago if they'd wanted to. They chose to ship nothing rather than ship something that didn't meet their requirements. This perception isn't the only problem of course, as the Model 978 has been delayed from the originally announced release date, but it certainly doesn't help matters at all.

Thanks for the response Gonk.

For me (and I suspect most others still waiting) the problem is much less the delay than the silence. I'm sorry, but excuses such as "we have nothing to say at this point" and "we can't accurately predict when it will be ready" just don't cut it.

Desite gonk's assurances, I'm far less sanguine about the prospects for the Model 978. HDMI is a whole new ball game. There was a fairly confident prediction in Scott's January 26 update that the product would ship by the end of June. Big surprise... it didn't. More importantly, there was no status update when it failed to ship (which is a surprise) and repeated requests for such are simply ignored.

Outlaw: just tell us what's happening, whatever it is. Allow us to make decisions based on current rather than 5 month old information. Is that such an unreasonable request?

I'm in the process of building a house and a 978 would have been great. However, the delays and the worry about initial issues have let the bloom off the rose. I'll use my Outlaw sub and amp for the media room, but my patience went away a while ago. I'll probably go with an Integra processor. It has the bells and whistles that I need and whatever possible audio improvements that the Outlaw product has probably won't be the noticeable to me when everything is properly calibrated. Sorry Outlaws.

Regarding the 978 release and even Outlaw as a long term player in the pre/pro market, I guess I don't see any reason not to assume the worst but hope for the best. And take action based on the former rather than the latter. Doing so will not harm you the consumer in any way.

If Outlaw survives, then the 978 will be released. But my primary concern is whether Outlaw can survive much longer. With no new products, a bad economy, and tight credit, it makes me wonder what's keeping the lights on.

Really, really hope I'm wrong.

April 7, 2011

Three months later we have heard nothing. Any bets on when this is released? Q3 2011, Q4 2011, Q1 2012, Q2 2012 or beyond?

According to the Outlaw I just talked to on the phone, they will release the 978 by the end of the year. They haven't announced anything simply because they want to be sure the date is firm. Unfortunately, that's too late for me, as my trusty old 950 finally died, so I now have a Marantz AV7005. So far, I am blown away by it's performance. The 978, or more likely the 998, will have to be something truely spectacular for me to part with my Marantz for a long long time.

With their track record of meeting dates, I am sure that it will be here for Christmas. Also, Santa Claus is real and will deliver each unit to your house.

I shouldn't have laughed, but I did.

Good natured and well deserved ribbing aside, if we're talking 978 by year end, does that indicate there may already be beta testers with units in hand? What would be a normal beta testing window prior to release of something like this? I assume they would use a beta testing process for the 978, but maybe they'll do it all in house? Also, I would assume "by year end" would target at least the Christmas shopping period, so say we're five months out right now?

Who are you asking? Do you expect someone from Outlaw to answer?

No, I certainly do not expect an answer from Outlaw. My question was an invitation to the forum for speculation.

Speculating is all we've been doing for the last several months. I don't think it's brought us any closer to knowing anything.

I was just jealous that I hadn't thought of it myself. And skiman's post about his phone call certainly didn't make me any happier.

Just got off the phone with Scott. An official status update is apparently "in the works". He wasn't willing or able to make any prediction regarding availability but did mention that "things are going very well" with the Model 978.

I guess those of us who are still waiting shouldn't give up hope just yet...

That is good news... I'm still stumbling along with my trusty Outlaw 950 Preamp/Processor, and I look forward to the new processor!!

I hope the Outlaws will reward the patience and loyalty of old-timers like me.

-- Cain

PS I just read Scott's posting and he said:


"As a reminder, our previously announced "Outlaw Owner Discounts" on the Model 978 will remain in effect for original owners of previous Outlaw Surround processors and receivers. "

I was getting close to giving up, but this one additional morsel thrown to us makes me want to hang for a bit longer. As member #58, I have been very patient and am still using my 950 with it's almost non-working volume control and very loud transformer buzz and I do hope for a significant discount for us first Outlaw adopters.

I hate waiting...but that being said I am still enjoying my 990/7700 combo.
Can't wait for the update!

I have a 990/7500 setup in my music room up north and absolutely love it for all kinds of music. I have a PC and an iPod and a turntable and a CD/DVD player all connected and the 990 pulls in some decent FM stations even out in the sticks. I especially like WGWG 88.3 The Range from Gardner Webb university. It plays all kinds of music and lets you listen without a bunch of commercials. Sort of like the old WDVE in Pittsburgh Pa. Great station for album rock.

Why are we still sitting here without any news after two weeks for a status update that was supposedly already "in the works"... If "things are going very well", why haven't we heard anything? I understand the reluctance to release inaccurate information, but it would be nice to know more about what's going on. I just don't understand why an update takes so long to be released.

I agree completely. I fear that my posting a summary of my somewhat reassuring conversation with Scott may have caused Outlaw to further postpone an official status update.

I wouldn't worry about it GaryB. I had a silimar conversation with a person at Outlaw via EMail that suggested year end. I used to check this frequently, but have now decided if I 'have' to take the leap I can look at the Marantz and if not, the new processor would make an awesome Christmas gift to myself.

hmm, the only flaw i see in the demo i saw, was 5 hdmi, 6-8/2 should be standard..

a bigger in the chassis, support for 9.x/11.x should be standard, lan should standard

more component inputs, s-video inputs double spdif..

my best suggestion to outlaw to do, is get hold of the denon avp, marantz av 7005/8003, onkyo 5508 plus 3 units in each brand within 4-5 models within the top end avr ..

i would also look at pioneer and yamaha avr's...

this is straight R&D to see what you can improve on..


power needs to be compliant for 220/240 vac

We've talked about all this before...


We've known we were going to have five HDMI inputs for a long time now. The AV7005 has six, but one is on the front panel - there are only five on the back. I'd be happy to have more, but it's not unreasonable to settle on five.


A bigger what in the chassis? It's already roughly the same size as the Model 990, by the looks of it, and that's pretty darn big.

Support for 9.1 pre-outs would be nice, certainly, but at this point the Model 978 is hardly alone in only offering an eight-channel DAC. The AV7005 does the exact same thing. Marantz stuck extra pre-amp outputs on the back, but they can't all be active at once - a move that has the potential to be misleading to consumers who don't dissect the manual enough (or read Outlaw's guide) to figure that out. As a trade-off, their eight-channel DAC is an ESS Sabre chip. Assuming they did a good job of building an analog stage around it, that's fairly awesome. Adding an extra two-channel DAC chip of equal performance (unless you don't mind a disparity in quality for the height channels) would be a not-insignificant change in price. And 11.1 would require having Audyssey DSX (which I haven't seen mentioned as being included) or the new DTS mode that didn't show up until they were well into development.

As for LAN, they explained their reasoning. They are a smaller outfit, and developing all of the services that are expected once you add a network port is a massive undertaking. We'd be waiting until 2013 to get it if they did that, I'll bet. If you want that, buy a Roku or AppleTV or WD box for $100 or so and move on.


They included three component inputs and three composite inputs (one on the front) plus six digital audio inputs. In this day and age of HDMI connections, that's actually a pretty nice offering. As for s-video, it's been fading for a while now, and Outlaw's not the first to drop it from the rear panel of a surround processor. The AV7005 also omits them. Also, they did include one legacy connection that is really rare: MM/MC phono.


Considering the fact that they technically only sell to the US (and sometimes to Canada), their sales volume for markets with 240V power is tiny. They've offered 240V on some power supplies, but it's far from standard for their stuff - simple economics, as the payback is probably somewhere between poor and nonexistent to add the extra cost in pursuit of a few extra sales.

One thing I wish is that it had a set of balanced stereo inputs for a higher end CD player to be connected and used in "bypass" mode. I know a lot of good CD players, and even the top Oppo DVD/CD player have balanced analog outputs. I am using 5 balanced outputs from my 990 to the 7500 amp.

Right now with my 990, I'm using the Digital RCA/Coax input from an Adcom CD changer from the mid-90s. I guess if I upgraded to the 978, it should sound better using this same connection, due to the different DACs in it.

Also, I'm using a Panasonic Tube 36" HDTV from 2001, and all it has is 2 sets of Component 1080i/480p HD inputs. One is connected.to the HD DVR cable box and the other is connected to the DVD player. I see 3 sets of Component video inputs on the 978, but no Component video output. That means I couldn't pass-through my video through the 978. Naturally, whenever I update my TV, that wouldn't matter since those all have HDMI, but that might still be a couple years out.

By the way, is there still planning to be a 998, or just the 978?

I would expect so. The ESS chips I've used in the BDP-83SE and BDP-95 have both been really excellent sounding.


Correct - they have an ABT chip in there for video processing, which would only really be available for HDMI output. Rather than have a component output that missed all that, they've done HDMI only. If you upgrade, you might want to consider a device like HD Fury to let you start using HDMI for everything upstream of the TV. It will convert the HDMI to component just before your TV.


As far as I know, the Model 998 is still planned.

Last year I purchased the Marantz 5005 and I am using it as a pre-amp. I am generally satisfied except that the hdmi signal going out should be boosted as I have a long run to my overhead projector. Will the 978 have a boosted hdmi signal going out?

John

gonk the reason why I was commenting on 220/240vac was because I am in a country that has that power system, I'm neither in the US or Canada, given that I'm in Australia 220/240 vac is a requirement, the LAN option I put in for integration services, 9.x or 11.x would be nice to have...

the more inputs/outputs the better...

this is why I was saying they need to R&D look at what other Co's are doing aswell to see if they improve on what onkyo, marantz, denon, pionneer, hk and yamaha have done in the past..

the reason I requested more digital inputs because there is more pre-existing gear within my setup that requires these options...

the request within the video dept. was because s-video could be upscaled to 720i/p and component could be upscaled to 1080i/p, with atleast 1 composite connection..

not sure on front hdmi though looking at the current mockup on the rear of the unit it is a 5/2 configuration 6/2 or 7/2 would be a better choice, 4/1, 5/1, 5/2, 6/1 6/2 has been the bog standard for the last several years on the higher end avr's and processors... so 6/2-8/3 (rear) should be an option..

making the chassis a bit bigger also gives the room for expansion in later models, setting up a processor which has more in common with avr/processors of the early to mid 90's seems a bit silly to me, looking a the current layout is very under utilized..

I know you're in Australia and need 220/240, but my point is that they may not be able to justify the cost since they don't sell more than a handful of any given model outside of North America.

What integration services do you want the LAN for?


I expect that they know what the big names are doing, but the places they are best situated to improve on them are in things like analog audio performance and ease of use. If they try to get into a feature list contest with one of the giants, they will lose.


Keep in mind that no HDMI devices need to occupy a coaxial, optical, or analog audio connection unless you just want it to. That leaves all six digital inputs free for non-HDMI devices. Compare that to a product like the Model 990, which had no HDMI support (so all sources that wanted a digital connection needed to use coaxial or optical) and a total of four rear panel optical, one front panel optical, and two rear panel coaxial inputs. That's exactly the same total number of rear panel digital inputs on both processors. Add in the HDMI ports and the ARC channel on the HDMI output, and you have a total of 12 possible digital inputs into the Model 978.


Why not scale s-video to higher resolutions? Why rule out scaling composite video? Both s-video and composite video are 480i native connections, while component can be anywhere from 480i to 1080i (or, in a few really atypical cases, 1080p). Practically speaking, the only sources whose best output is s-video will also have a composite output that works just fine. Most Model 978 owners are going to be focusing on HD video sources, though, with at most a couple legacy devices around to share the three component and two composite inputs (or three composite inputs, if you could the front panel). Personally, I've got an old DVD recorder (component video and optical outputs), a Wii (component video and analog audio outputs), and a children's educational game device (composite video and analog audio outputs) - everything else that would get connected would use HDMI. There's an old VCR, too, but it's connected directly to the DVD recorder as I only use it to archive VHS tapes to DVD.


There's no reason to design a chassis around future products - you design it for the product in front of you. From that perspective, I see no reason to enlarge the Model 978. Making it taller just makes it harder to fit into people's furniture. The rear panel benefits a bit from the shift to HDMI, as it is less cluttered than the Model 990's was. That makes connecting things to it easier, which is nice.

Redman6,
The 978 is 98% complete!! No one in their right mind thinks it can be redesigned to accommodate one person in a galaxy FAR, FAR away. I would not expect you to purchase this equipment since it does not even come close to meeting the gaming requirements you so obviously seek. Although I would expect you could much more easily convert 220 vac to 120 vac than Outlaw could design that feature into their gear. There must be some gear sold in AU or NZ that uses that voltage especially since it is so close to the Asian markets. Why not just accept that facts that the 978 is as it has been advertised and will not be what you are suggesting.

s-video has a bandwidth limitation which restricts its upscale I would love to see it it upscale to 1080 though physical medium will likely not permit it..

it's just not for gaming I'm looking to use the 978 for,I still have other components that can use digital connections...


the idea to more hdmi as to allow more components over hdmi, looking at covering atleast a couple of consoles, brd player, dvd player plus paytv and iptv..

lack of either usb/lan limits firmware updates aswell, since hdmi 1.4a is still under development I would say looking at upgrading via hdmi may cause more issues..

the 120/240 needs to be standard, I can't see people spending cash on a 1,500-2,500 pre-amp then spending another $500-1,500 on a step down power transformer...

it's nice to live in the US where these things can be picked up on the cheap...


xeno, if the 978 is 98% complete why is it going to take sometime within the 4th quarter to release it, what's happening within the last 2% is it hardware or is it firmware???

this is what we don't know, I tried to give my honest opinion of what specs I got in my recent email said...

go and compare it with what's out in the market within both avr and pre-pro markets to see what is on offer..

I think most members will agree that it is nice to live in the United States. Since we live here though, we are accustomed to using our standard power supply and frequency. House voltage is usually supplied as 220vac and geared down to 120vac by going from one hot side to neutral which gives us 120vac without a transformer involved. Since this is the standard for everyone in the states, all of the gear designed for the states uses 120vac. No one uses 220vac for anything other than electric clothes dryers, household HVAC and cooking. It is unreasonable to expect a small manufacturer like Outlaw to provide gear which would not be in demand by anyone in the states. I am sure there is some gear built by the larger concerns like Sony, D&M holdings and others that meet your needs. Check out this link for a converter for 220 to 120 vac -- less than $70 gets you what you need with having the rest of us pay for it too when we don't need it.

http://www.nine220volts.com/power-conver...own-transformer

Check out this link for gear designed to meet your specific needs: http://www.world-import.com/avamps.htm
Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer all support 220 vac and even 50hz if needed.

The 978 is 98% complete!! The remaining items have to do with SOFTWARE integration. The HARDWARE is done. That means the rear panel is what it is, and won't change. There is a USB port on the front of the 978 for updates and will let us connect the standard stuff into it. I personally am glad to see the absence of any S-video connections in favor of more high end stuff. This pre-pro is for Audio/Video enthusiasts and appears to provide all the needed bells and whistles. It even includes a phono stage with MM/MC support, something that is lacking in much of the newer gear out there. In short, the 978 design stage is over. The Outlaws are into the testing phase and lets hope it goes well. I am very disappointed in the new release date and agree that the 998 is way overdue for an update. I have moved on from Outlaw as far as my new Pre-pros go but I wish them success.

just to point out this out the unit is supporting plIIz where is the extra outputs for it??

it would seem silly to use xlr for primary and rca for fw/fh

Even though there are many AVRs and AVPs out there that boast 9 or 11 channels and support the front wide and height channels, most support is at the expense of the rear surround channels. You only need 7 channels out because the rear surrounds become the wides or the highs. It is a trade off and very little source material supports seven channels of anything in a native format. Using the XLR outputs would not accomplish much without some additional switching because it would only duplicate the RCA output so the wides or highs would not get a different spatial signal.

Residential stuff is mostly 208V/120V, although 220V is sometimes in the mix. The bigger issue is that most countries that use 220V instead of 120V also use 50Hz instead of 60Hz. Some months back, we had a pretty in-depth discussion of the subject (starting here). Companies that sell to Europe and the US (Sony, Denon/Marantz, Onkyo/Integra, Panasonic, etc.) have to provide both power supply options. In some cases, that may involve a single design with a power supply that works for both. In other cases, it means two different power supply designs that are used for separate North American and European models.

XenonMan's right that hardware is now done - it sounds like they're tweaking the finish on the front panel, which supports the logical conclusion that hardware is locked in.

PLIIz is being supported by offering the option for either front height or surround back channel output. Therefore, the surround back pre-amp output can also serve as the front height output. As discussed several times in the past, many PLIIz and Audyssey DSX products have been released using eight-channel DAC's, thus requiring users to select whether to set up a 7.1 system with surround back speakers or a 7.1 system with front height speakers. Outlaw is doing that by building the processor with a 7.1 pre-amp output. Others (like Marantz with the AV7005) include separate outputs for surround back and front height, but you can't use both simultaneously.

The unit has USB on the front panel specifically for firmware updating. HDMI v1.4a is actually pretty well settled now, but surround processors have a whole lot of audio and video processing software that needs tweaking.


A company that only sells in the US and Canada has not reason to pay extra to design a power supply for 240V.


Firmware on something this complex is not easy to get right. Beta testing and developing a suitable production firmware takes time. I've beta tested every disc player that OPPO Digital has developed since the DV-981HD back in 2006, and beta testing for them takes anywhere from three months to six months or more. For the Blu-ray players, it's been closer to six months pretty consistently. In those cases, the beta testers always had final hardware when we started - or maybe had a single hardware revision early in the testing process. That last 2% is hard - and important to get right.

Gonk is correct about the last bit of software/firmware being very difficult. We used a Microsoft recommended third party to port Flashlite to our product's multimedia processor and it took (what we thought would be a straightforward process) them MONTHS to complete - VERY frustrating. AND, when you make a change to firmware, nearly every time it results in a bug in some other area. Firmware has caused almost 100% of product delays and hardware almost zero.

The end of the year is sneaking up on me. I was thinking it was still a while away, but 12/1 is only 4 months from now.

Hi all. I'm coming to the 978 party quite late, but maybe just in time too.

The most recent release date posted by Outlaw seems to be this from the Aug 2 statement:



That's the latest we have? On a post above, I saw a mention of Dec 1?

Thanks !!

Dec. 1 was just me speculating on a date. I would assume that if they're looking to release "by year end", they would shoot for no later than the beginning of December. Of course, "year end" is December 31st, so that's just a guess on my part. We've heard nothing official since that August 2nd statemtent nearly two months ago.

If Outlaw waits too deep into December they will miss out on the holiday shopping window and will again miss another release date. My confidence in their ability to bring a new pre-pro to market has been shaken by the continual delays and the lack of updates. Like you say though, it is almost October and we are getting closer to a "day of infamy" one way or the other.

Hopefully they will have a huge black Friday sale and surprise us all with the release at the same time.

Thanks guys.

Just over two months since the last update...just under two months until December 1st. Is the "by year end" release date in jeopardy?

It would be nice to know if there is any beta testing going on.
Scott?????????????????????

I doubt Outlaw would make a public announcement stating that a product is in beta testing as that may not be in their best interest. But some companies have released info referencing their products and progress through out it's development stage. I don't see that happening with Outlaw, but of cousre I may be incorrect.

With respect to release date, the quote on August 2nd was: "based on our latest estimates we're targeting a release at the end of the year." They did not specify the end of the calendar year or the end of the fiscal year. Keep in mind that some companies fiscal years do not end on December 31st, they end on March 31st which is the end of the first financial quarter of the new year.

A release date in March makes some sense as December and January are not typically greats months for a new product release. Think of the financial burden placed on families during December as well as the stress of the holiday's and the end of the year (tax time).

Also, we have CES 2012 January 10-13 which would be a great time for the products first showing and demo which would create interest and publicity for the enthusiast. After CES, pre-orders could be scheduled for a release date in March which would give Outlaw some info as to how many units they can project to sell in the first quarter of the products release and also going forward into it's first summer. This information would be extremely valuable for manufacturing and shipping planning and it would also allow Outlaw to tweak some important business decisions concerning the product as well as future products for the "fiscal" year.

Your point on CES is fair. I, however, highly doubt that by not specifying calendar year end that they may have meant fiscal year end. They first talked about first quarter of 2011, then by late first half of 2011, then by end of year. Given that context, I'm pretty sure they were targeting December 2011 when they referred to the end of the year.

I agree and I also believe that their intention is the end of the calendar year. However, in business, it's always good to leave the gate open a little just in case you have to sneak through.

When they said "end of the year", did they specify 2011?

Unfortunately...no.

I remember when the new pre-pro was discussed 2-3 years ago

sigh.........

starting to get tired of waiting. I've been manually HDMI input switching my TV for over a year waiting to get a pre-amp that would handle that instead of wasting money on an HDMI switch. I appreciate challenges and delays but man.

What a disappointment to find out 978 is not going to be ready this year. Who knows when it will be available, by next March??? In the meantime, I decided to purchase UMC-1 and just arrived last night. After quick setup, I gave it a listen for couple of hours and lucky for me there is no major problems that I read over the other forums. When 978 is finally ready, I will look into if it is worth the upgrade from UMC-1.

I'm guessing you're probably right about the time frame. It does appear that this unit is in beta, and as speculated elsewhere, beta is probably a 3+ month affair. This should move the release date sometime into the 1Q of 2012.

I've been around for a while and while I appreciate Outlaws conservatism of not announcing a release date the constant delays and shelving a previous processor have become over the top irritating. I honestly hope Outlaw will consider a different approach for products that have been announced. Please consider having a public beta forum so non beta testers can see what's going on in the beta process. I've seen companies do this an it's been successful and it helps build up anticipation and troubleshooting. Your current process is horrible because you're not respecting your faithful customers, you just keep letting them hang on for month after month with very little information. I would be more understanding if you were a company like Apple that had a history of secrecy and then launched within a time frame, but you'r not and you haven't. Open public beta forums are a real treat for those of us seriously interested, so please consider it as an alternative to what you're currently doing.

Retep -
Well said, I couldn't have put it any better.

Guys, I respect the way Outlaw does things. If you can't wait, then bail. I for one, like my 950 even though I'm behind the times, I have faith the 978 will fit my needs and fit the bill for the next 10 or so years. I hate waiting also, but I also have considered doing something else. I had a Marantz receiver prior to the 950, and if you can't wait, the 7005, I'm positive is a great piece of gear. Outlaws will not release something until they believe it is ready. I respect that! I too am hurting, but...... it is what it is, wait, or don't, but the complaining won't change the bang for the buck factor and shouldn't.......

Indeed. What I can't quite fathom is how Outlaw manages to keep the lights on. There can't be much profit in reselling Chinese-assembled electronics for D&M Holdings (the owners of Marantz/Denon/Snell(which they just gutted)/etc...fortunately they haven't gutted McIntosh yet). There is virtually no activity on these forums anymore and much of it revolves around speculation concerning product delays.

So while I see the occasional "announcement," actual new product deliveries have been few and far between and delivery dates are often vaguely hinted at...and missed. That's pretty much been the case for a couple of years now.

How does a small niche player even have a chance in this software driven home theater landscape we find ourselves in? It's sad, but time (and the world) marches on.

Best,

We have had patience for many years and if everyone listened to your advice then outlaw would have even fewer customers. What I asked for is not too much to ask for and I think it would help build customer relations.

I have every right to complain and voice my opinion, if you don't like it then you don't have to come visit the thread.

I waited for the 997 to come out and when it missed its predicted release dates with no news, I chose to purchase the Onkyo PR-SC886 from Outlaw. I can honestly say that I would have never purchased the Onkyo from another online retailer. I trust Outlaw to deal fairly and honestly. When they miss a deadline they at least offer something else of very high quality. They have to do something to keep the lights on. In a few years I may be in the market for a new processor which supports 3D (if they ever work out the glasses thing) and then I will look to Outlaw for my processor. Maybe the 998 will be out by then and they'll have another customer loyalty bonus. Most of the posters on this site are waiting for the 978 to appear and have been very patient over the last 3+ years. As long as we keep it civil, I would expect everyone to prod Outlaw for updates as often as possible. When they see a lot of interest in an update, they tend to throw us a bone. PeterT, are you listening?

Apologies

<crickets>

<chirp>

I just pulled the trigger on one of these. Couldn't beat the price:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-s...Receiver/1.html

I'll keep an eye out for the 978, but ...

I can see how many are not happy that the 978 has not been released. I'm sure Outlaw is more unhappy with the delay than anyone. But I'd rather see the 978 delayed than see what has happened with Emotiva's UMC-1. The UMC-1 has been on the market for close to two years and it is still having issues.

I look forward to the release of the 978 as it looks to be the prepro to replace my Onkyo 886. But I'm in no rush as the 886 is working and sounding just fine. But XT32 and the Sabre DACs are a calling .

Bill

I think it's safe to say that no matter how much beta testing is done there is likely to be issues that crop up after the release of the 978. I hope they are few and minor but most devices as complex as an AV processor will have issues, no matter who manufactures them. I remember swapping chips in my 950, something I never had to do with any of my other processors, including Emotiva.

Yeah it is very unlikely that every contingency has been ironed out but if the users are happy, Outlaw will have accomplished a good thing.

Made by the same people who make the Marantz stuff. I'm trying to hold out for gear that's not made in China.

Best,

You may be waiting a while.

The 4311CI and A100 are still coming from Japan. The AV7005 has indeed shifted production from Japan to China. A dealer friend of mine said that since the AV7005 is now coming from China, it is only a matter of time before the 4311CI/A100 comes from there too. But since the A100 is an "anniversary" type thing, maybe they will stop production on those entirely before the switch. One reason why I didn't want to wait any longer for the 978: I wanted to make sure I got an A100 from Japan. May not matter for some people, but it matters to me.

The 978 will almost certainly be coming from China.

Almost certainly? Unless I missed something, I could have sworn that I read one of PeterT's comments where he said as much.

At the end of the day, we all need to decide whether or not we're going to continue sending money to a country that is explicitly working against our country's national interests. Higher end audio equipment clearly falls into what I'd call "discretionary spending" and I'd rather funnel those dollars to companies and people that are more focused on the bigger picture, even if that means I need to spend a little more. Sending money to a company who then sends some of it to an "enemy" to make/keep short-term profits at the expense of the very people who they would call their "family" and their customers strikes me as a bit odd. But perhaps I'm just old fashioned that way. I wouldn't buy any Emotiva gear for the same reason.

Edit: Outlaw/ATI amps are another matter. They're made in the USA.

Best,

If you look at the rear panel of the 978 it clearly says "Made In PRC". So that would lead me to believe the 978 will be made in the Peoples Republic of China. I would like to buy a prepro that is made in the USA but thats not going to happen. The same concerns about "made in Japan" were voiced over 30 years ago.

Bill

30 years ago, Japan was not actively subverting our economic and political policies across the globe. Anyway, this has gone far afield from the original subject.

I hope that the Outlaw product will someday see the light of day and that the company manages to stay in business. I don't agree with their offshoring policies, but I will say they've provided me with good customer service and high quality products in the past.

Best,

Although some very expensive equipment is built in the USA most of the parts used to assemble it are built elsewhere. Outsourcing is a way of life and there's no way around it unless you have unlimited capital. That doesn't fit the "best bang for the buck" model of Outlaw and it never will. 30 years ago the Japanese were trying to put the automakers and every other consumer electronics company out of business, clear and simple. They have almost succeeded, with the exception of the high end market where price is not a factor.

But this is exactly what China is doing to them, Europe, us, Canada, etc, today.

A bunch of US solar technology companies just filed a complaint with the US gov't because Chinese companies are dumping solar products here ... trying to drive US companies out of business.

Frankly, my personal concern is more about quality control and long term reliability, than any politics of where a particular audio component comes from.

I'd love to buy US, and I'd pay a reasonable premium for that, but that's almost impossible with AVRs/SSPs. So with the Denon 4311CI/A100, if there's a choice between a unit manufactured in China vs Japan, I'll take Japan every time.

Since the 978 can and will only come from China, I don't have a problem with that.

My only concern was that we still don't know when the 978 will be available (hint, hint Outlaw ), so I wanted to get the Denon AVR before there weren't any more Japanese-made units available.

Good thing I have absolutely no qualms about changing a decision I just thought I made. (I should be a politician.)

I don't know how many of you follow the Audyssey thread at AVS (I know Sanjay does ), but Markus767 has just recently posted graphs of before and after in-room measured responses with XT and XT32.

XT32 isn't the fundamental improvement over XT that I thought it was.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=795421&page=1553

Start at post 46581. He presented the comparison originally in post 46553.

That changes the game for me. I could see moving from the AV7005 to the 4311CI/A100 if XT32 was a bigger improvement over XT. But just for an incremental (if that) improvement, I can wait for the hopefully improved analog output stage and better DACs of the ... 978 !!

I think my views on China, and specifically about not buying made-in-China products, have been posted enough that I need not repeat them all.

However in the context of comparing China of today to Japan of thirty years ago...

There is a huge difference between economic competition as practiced by Japan back then, and the economic threat that is China, specifically because of the military, environmental, political, and human rights threats that go hand-in-hand with China today, and which never existed with Japan thirty years ago.

Jeff Mackwood

I think your views on China and Chinese equipment is well known and I am sure many feel the same way. My point is that there is likely nothing to be done to forestall the onward march of cost conscious buyers towards lower priced equipment.

Do you honestly think the typical BestBuy/Walmart shopping lowest bidder consumer is even going to consider a niche player like Outlaw? Why would they? Outlaw CAN'T compete on price and they don't have the financial resources to stay ahead of the curve with new features (or even current features in this case). I'm not optimistic about their chances.

Best,

I agree with you that the outlook for the little guy is bleak at best. The typical BestBuy/Walmart shopper is not going to find Outlaw attractive because of the costs associated with high quality equipment. The situation demands a supply chain with the lowest cost which means China or some other lower wage supplier. Unfortunately the model is flawed in that as the low cost builders of this equipment make progress, they get higher wages and aspire to buy the stuff they have been building. The more afluent they become the fewer jobs they keep as the companies move to lower cost labor. It is a global economy and we can't stop it from moving past the old models.

Many Americans (and people of other nationalities) want their stuff (especially toys that frequently get replaced or upgraded) at the lowest possible price, regardless of where those toys come from or the harmful results on their own economies.

For instance, If I want to upgrade the motherboard in my computer, which I do every few years, it is pretty hard to find one NOT made in the people's republic. My TV and audio equipment, on the other hand, has been around for years. My speakers, turntable and power amps are USA made and are from the mid '80s. When I buy someting, I buy for long term satisfaction. Digital stuff gets updated a bit more frequently than my analog stuff. When I do buy something non-USA made, I do avoid the people's republic if at all possible, but don't mind buying something from another country that is truly friendly to the USA, if a domestic alternative is not available at or near what I can afford.

My present "pre-pro", for movies, not music, is a several year old Sony receiver that I bought used. It is 5.1 channels. I would like to upgrade some day, but I am in no rush.
I don't need the latest toy. If and when I do buy something to replace the Sony with, I might buy something new or maybe used.

When I do buy something that was made in the people's republic, I am not pleased with the fact that it came from there. I do try and make this happen as little as possible, though.

Everybody has to make their own choice in regards to purchases: what, when, why and from where. Of course, if I was rolling in money, buying USA made all the time would be a lot easier. For someone making very little, even most stuff made in the people's republic is too expensive. Decisions! Decisions!!

Now that the year end (the last official targeted release date) is here, do you think we can get a new soft target for a release? Not all Outlaw followers frequent the Saloon, so it would be nice to see an official update.

We've just concluded an extensive round of testing on the latest samples and Scott is going over to China on Jan 9 to spend a week with the build team there to address several software bugs that are standing in our way. He'll be back before Chinese New Year and then we'll have a better idea of where things stand at that time.

Peter

Thanks, Peter. I'm still hoping that the 978 will be worth the wait.

Thanks from me also Peter.... I purchased the SR5005 to use for now, but still await the 978...

Thank you Peter. I'll look forward to the update.

Thanks Peter - so the week after CES you'll have an estimate on when the software (HDMI?) bugs may be worked out.

Actually Hank, we have had the factory "estimates" all along, but have not passed them on publicly. Things always go slower than optimistic engineers claim. (I think you have some experience in this area if I remember correctly) Scott will return with a "hit list" and produce his own estimate based upon what he encounters over there. We can provide a general ideas, but often those estimates are interpreted as hard commitments and then if we miss everyone gets upset, including us.

Scott's trip is an effort to help speed things up. In addition, there is often a language issue where meanings of modifications become misunderstood. Scott's mission will be prioritize the bugs in order of importance in an effort to accelerate the entire process.

This is very hard stuff and the technology companies keep moving the goal posts. Our own goal is to deliver a product that does not need constant updates over a year or more.

>This is very hard stuff and the technology companies keep moving the goal posts. Our own goal is to deliver a product that does not need constant updates over a year or more.<

Certainly an admiral goal and one reason I enjoy purchasing from Outlaw. It does make me wonder how companies like Yamaha or Denon as an example, release multiple receivers year after year. Is it the large internal resources these companies can leverage between design and manufacturing which allow this?
-Bob

Bob, two things impact the pace of release from companies like Denon and Yamaha. First, they have multiple products that are variants on a single core architecture. Second, new models frequently make only incremental changes to existing designs, while replacement architecture spends longer being developed by other teams. Third, they have a lot more R&D resources, which helps with the development of those different variants and with throwing a lot of manpower on dealing with problems like HDMI. (They also have been known to "resolve" bugs that slip through their R&D teams by making a new model that incorporates a fix and letting the older model stay broken.)

Outlaw has historically resisted the "new model year" approach. Like OPPO and some other smaller companies, they keep products in production a lot longer rather than finding an excuse to change a couple details and roll out new model numbers.

thanks peter. I am still waiting for the 978.

Peter wrote:
Peter: my experience too as you recalled. Hardware engineers are fairly accurate with their development time estimates, BUT it's a different animal with software guys - software/firmware has caused delays with every product and the cycle continues: I remind teams and their management to be careful in the software estimates and add a month or more, but Marketing's product road map release dates seem to always be cast in stone.
Will you be at CES? If so, and you're in a booth/room, I'll try to drop by and say 'hi'. If you'll just be 'visiting', let's meet and I'll buy you a tequila.

Bob: +1 to what Gonk wrote.

AND, to all you gunslingers, The Outlaws, guests and spiders:
HAPPY NEW YEAR! We'll all be listening to and enjoying our 978's in 2012!

I wii be back in the Venetian again where Atlantic and Parasound will share a room. If I have time I will be happy to show you a product that might also be released in an Outlaw version.

Peter

And therein lies the rub with smaller firms outsourcing manufacturing to China. Even for relatively simple manufacturing (think auto parts or furniture), the environment is rife with fraud, dishonesty, and lack of efficiency. Now complicate that with "language barriers", a joke of a legal system (so there's little or no recourse for contract breaches...especially if the victim is a foreign entity) and a "just good enough" to pass initial inspection attitude. And that's for simple manufacturing. It gets much worse when you're dealing with more intellectual endeavors such as software development. Been there, done that. Good luck if/when this thing ships trying to get software bug fixes and updates. I don't wish Outlaw bad luck, this this has all the hallmarks of an epic fail, both for Outlaw and for consumers who wind up with the gear if/when it ships.

It would have made more sense, once they decided to go to the dark side of Chinese manufacturing, to partner with a deep pocketed (they're already in bed with D&M holdings so that would have potentially worked) who has the financial strength and the staffing to have assets on the ground 24/7 to manage the development process (like Apple and major consumer electronics manufacturers do).

Seems like we end every year with Outlaw "on the cusp" of releasing a long delayed product. I hope they manage to get this one right, but I'm (obviously) not very optimistic.

Happy new year to all. Xin nian kuai le!

Best,

One of the most difficult things I've dealt with working with people "over there" is the fact that "they" will have one conversation in their native language and then tell you something totally different in english.

For example. I was at our company plant and the folks there had a discussion about one of our questions in their native language. My friend leaned over and said "These guys have forgotten I talk their languague. They're talking about what they did on vacation." And this was a plant that we owned. It can only get worse from there.

We never sent a team to an offshore entity without making sure we had at least one person who could talk the native lanuguage.

Aside from the delays, why does this have the hallmarks of an epic fail?

Peter, I'll definitely look you up in that room.

I think the "internal delays" are too easy to get swallowed up in when the manufacturer / marketer is as "open" as Outlaw...

The "competition" for the 978 largely DOES NOT EXIST -- while I suspect MOST eventual buyers of the 978 will "cross shop" offerings from firms like Marantz, Integra, NAD, Anthem and other higher quality firms the feature set and value offered by Outlaw with a full line of amps to pair with with 978 and its balanced audio outputs is unlikely to really be rivaled by a larger company (or even other online firms that have problems of their own)...

This past week I helped a friend install a new ceiling mount projector in his dedicated media room. The hassles we encountered trying to get his also new LG BluRay player to interface with his not that old Yamaha receiver were maddening. I can only imagine the sorts of headaches that HDCP / HDMI integration have caused for all the 978 build partners. In a way I can understand how these sorts of things drive companies to offer "modular" type pre-amp processors, but having also been in the I/T field since before the Interwebs I also know that HW issues are far more "linear" than the kinds of SW issues that have to be resolved with each iteration of an interface. Sending out "beta" or "alpha" SW to paying customers is not a way to succeed in the marketplace...

I have a mixed bag of experience with off shore production. For firms that have the right kind of partners, that will not work against efforts to build a valuable relationship, the much reduced production costs can be used to deliver products at a price point that otherwise would not be achievable. If the partner has a "side door" that results in very dark grey market products reaching the distribution channel of course the result can be disastrous. Outlaw largely has a single head-end for their channel and ought not to have to worry about such things. Depending on the ultimate volume of shipped 978s the level of out-the-door quality control that they provide should similarly result in VERY satisfied customers...

So long as the Outlaws provide the kind of depth of technical support that has become their hallmark I have no fears that the 978 will be a feature-rich and superlative sounding device that will be the literal hub of high quality home entertainment systems for years to come.

I hope I don't come off as polyannishly optimistic -- I have been an audio / video enthusiast for a LOOOOOONG time and think back fondly to a time when local audio chains like Playback, United Audio, Musiccraft and others flourished in Chicago alongside national firms like Pacific Audio. The contraction of quality A/V retailers has lead to a lot of junky products and poorly run firms being the unfortunate norm. Even for folks that spend HUGE sums of money on home theatre / whole house audio the longevity of equipment tends to be poor and the complexity of offerings intrudes on the ability to enjoy a nice picture with realistic sound.

My experiences so far suggest that the Outlaws understand that the forces that collapsed previous eras of home electronics centered around failing to deliver products at a good value and so long as they do ship products that stack up well they should continue to be successful...

At this point I wonder how many unit Outlaw has to sell to cover the R&D costs. Maybe PeterT can tell us how many 990 units they sold. The 990 was a surprise and did not have the buildup and anticipation the 978/998 have. At somewhere around $1500 per unit I would imagine having to sell at least 20000 units to make it work.

I thought the estimated price stated by Outlaw when this model was acknowledged was around $800-1000. I sure hope it stays in that area. Of course, that was 2-3 years ago......

Admitting that beta tests have been run by Peter possibly concluded) is a good sign that the product may be available soon.

The 997 was slated at an estimated $1399.00 price but that was always a soft number. I don't remember anyone from Outlaw putting down a specific number since the original announcement of the 997. With all the delays and the increase due to inflation, I would be surprised if it comes in under $1500. We can hope and there is always the loyalty discount.

I thought it was around 1500..... But, we shall see! A good product is the important thing, aound that price! In my opinion....

Few firms in the A/V business have been able to raise prices. Inflation may be happening in commodities markets, but depressed demand and intense competition are putting downward pressure on all manufacturers.

Even the biggest companies no longer publish MSRPs that are some ridiculous multiple of "street price" -- on many of the higher quality processor / pre-amps / tuners a "sale price" even 5% below list is a pretty good deal. Anybody that shops the used audio offerings knows that non-HDMI units (or even those with sketchy HDMI support...) are selling for a fraction of their original prices...

Folks that will be buying 978s want some REAL power to drive their speakers and the value that any of the traditional "Outlaw Combos" deliver will be the real deal closer -- a total package that enable 5 or 7 channels of high quality sound at a price point that blows away the competition along with unparalleled tech support will almost certainly pay off the sunk costs of development a heckuva lot more reliability than some sky high made up list price with continuous discounts...

Again, the estimated price of the 997/998/978 family has always been around $1400 with a $200 discount for 990 owners. Some of the other Outlaw equipment also garners a discount but the 990 I am sure of at $200. For what the 978 is reported to be able to deliver the $1500 price point is about right. Not a lot of bells and whistles just high quality, reliable performance. Even in a combo, the 978 with an Outlaw amp is going to be more than $2000 with the discount. That is a fair price in todays market with many others routinely asking for more than $2000 for a lower powered receiver.

Agreed.

Gota disagree;

Years ago when this project started, the projected price was around $1000, and with the "prior" customer discount it brought the projected price down to $800.

Of course, its been so long maybe I am thinking of a model that was suppsed to come after th 990 and the 978, like a 997 perhaps?

cp1966 -
From what I recall from previous announcements - the 997 was estimated to be near $1400 and the 998 was to be near that price point (this was announced before the 978 was in the picture). I have not read anything else on price from Outlaw since then. I have read a ton of speculation on this board though.

I went back and reviewed all the updates from Outlaw on the 997/978/998 project and the only price put out was $1399 and it was an estimate. Obviously the owner discount will help some but I can't see the 978 ever at $800.

I don't think the Model 997 was ever around $1000.

Just for comparison... The Marantz AV7005 sells for $1600 and weighs 10.1 kg. If the 978 weighs same as 990 (12.7 kg) then the price for the 978 should come in about $2016. Trust me, the extra weight isn't lead feet, it's build quality.

I think there are a number of factors that make the weight comparison somewhat dubious. The transformer setup in the 978 will be a switch-mode transformer as opposed to the larger torroid transformers found in the 990. At the same time, weight differences will not show up in better DACs and video processing chips that are some of the main selling points of the 978. So you could have better build quality and better sound from a lighter unit.

If I buy 15 kg of bird seed, it should cost almost $2400?



Weight is a very small measure of what a component should cost IMO.

Think of early CD/DVD/BD players that weighed a ton and were easily surpassed in performance by later, and much lighter, models.

A certain amount of "heft" is needed to assure suitable support for the various inputs / outputs on the back panel. Similarly the front panel, though not as frequently fiddled with in this era of remote controls, will have to provide the proper feel of quality (and calls to mind the not too distant memory of certain high end marketer literally bonding an extra thick front plate to an well know high value player...).

I'm just hoping that with CES right around the corner the news of "when" gets updated for this long awaited product.

Are we buying steaks or electronics? There isnt a good relationship between mass and Sound Quality. If so then I have a Yamaha integrated amp that I should be able trade for 2 978s and another 7500.

I agree with XenonMan, we are here to buy electronics. The reason we're here (IMHO) is that we enjoy having really good electronics at a price point not available with another brand... Outlaws' support has always been outstanding. The quality of their products has been outstanding! I'm ready to have the 978, but also respect the 'not releasing it till it's ready' mentality. Another reason we're here in my opinion. The price to my recollection has been around 1500. I had/have a 950, so $100 less for the family discount. If it's a few hundred either way, I'm cool with it. Outlaw is a brand that I've come to trust. I'm loving the 7900! P.S. XenonMan, I'm liking my Harmony One sir... My guess is Gonk is beta-testing. Very much looking forward to reading his review if that IS the case...

This may be a little off topic, but I am curious about the Yamaha integrated amp that XenonMan has. I find some of these old school products fascinating. What is this thing that weighs so much?

Weight as an indicator of quality is a dangerous proposition, doubly so in a surround processor that doesn't have internal amps (or the associated high-current demands that lead to big power supplies and big heat sinks). What does a printed circuit board with DSP chip weigh? What does an HDMI board or video processor board weigh? What does an analog audio board weigh? None of these weigh much, and their power demands are really rather modest. In theory, a good surround processor could actually be pretty lightweight.

My old Yamaha CA-800 weighs about 45 pounds with a rated output of 45 watts. It is still chugging along just fine .

My post about computing the price of the 978 using the Marantz as a standard was meant tounge-in-cheek &#8213; mostly. To the degree it's inaccurate, it is so because my sampling was small, i.e., one. If you plotted weight vs price for, say, 10 comparable units, you could make some fairly valid assumptions.

Because product pricing usually has a large arbitrary component, weight comparisons are more valid in predicting product quality rather predicting price. To the degree this is true, it's because materials cost money, and no builder is going to spend money just to add weight.

I fail to see any "danger" in this exercise. I was comparing comparable products: Two, rather contemporary high-end pre-amps. So there is no need to talk of receivers, legacy junk, or animal protein, or boat anchors you may have lying around. After comparing the specs, which are similar enough (not withstanding additional features of the Marantz) that I know I couldn't tell the difference in sound, an inquiring mind might wonder just what does contribute to the weight difference. And yes, power supply might be a good answer, at least for some of the weight.

The point is, I can't think of any disadvantages to a heavier unit (shipping charges excepted.) So for comparably sized units with comparable features, I at least want a reasonable explanation for the weight differences, say in excess of 10 percent.

Is it a coincidence that the Marantz doesn't gold plate any of the rear connectors? That's not specked. Is it important? I'd say at least as much so as using oxygen free copper for speaker connects. Did they also cut some corners inside which resulted in a weight reduction? Fair and balanced, You decide.

Entertaining thread fork

I agree that at times, an electronics heft may have some bearing on quality. But while the 990 was a little light, it had great sound quality. But I am suprised that the Marantz 7005 preamp is only a tad heavier than the 990. My Onkyo PR-SC886 is prettty heavy considering its only a pre.

If the 978 comes out at $1500, it is going to have to be a pretty awesome machine for me to pay that much.

Well, since the 978 won't have a large torroidal transformer, gold plated connections or O2 Free copper I guess we might as well stop anticipating such a poor piece of equipment. It will likely be outweighed by many much cheaper designs. Maybe Outlaw will go the B.A.S.S cheaters route and plunk down a nice piece of lead to make it much heavier and then it can be considered high enough quality to compete with other "legacy junk". A nice brushed lead faceplate would make it so much better. How much does a good pre-pro go for per pound these days.

^^^

I was thinking yesterday, that to appease the "higher weight must be better quality" crowd, they could put a sheet of lead in the bottom of it ... and call it "proprietary technologically advanced EMI/RFI shielding".



All this talk about weight for a pre/pro is just silly IMO. And I would be the first person to say that I **do** think weight is an important determinant for an amplifier or a turntable, for example. But that would also just be my opinion too.

Coming soon to a high-end installer near you...

The new Lexicon premium receiver line. It'll be an Outlaw 978 installed in a slightly larger box with a brushed aluminum face plate and a 5mm lead lining on the bottom. It will retail for $5500.

I kid...I kid!!!

Wasn't going to post This Link but it seems oddly relevent.

The comments at the bottom are just as funny...

Yeah, I believe Oppo has some experience in this area.

EEman excellent link!!! Absolutely agree with everythi.g in the post.

This is actually wrong though:



Just ask anyone who's tried to use a cheap HDMI cable on a long run. I mean, Monoprice is fine. I'm talkin' "white van" cable, for context.

>All this talk about weight for a pre/pro is just silly IMO.<
Agreed. I would skip weight in favor of the 978’s dimensions, that way I can see if it will fit into my cabinet. As to quality, I would rather see the lab results from a Sound and Vision review so I can compare it to other receivers and pre’s they have measured.

Bob

Maybe they're expecting PR issues. Seems that ATI just hired Jeff Hipps (remember him during the Sherwood Newcastle R-972 Outlaw debacle)??

The hits just keep on comin.....

As I recall, ATI bought B&K a year or so ago. Jeff's experience with receivers and processors could be useful for them if they're trying to find a way to use B&K's resources.

@cp... You've got it backwards. The 990 is the heavier of the two units at 12.7kg. The AV7005 is 10.1kg.

A mfgr could insert a little lead "stabilizer" since it's only $0.89 per pound, spot price. BUT, your pre would then either be barred in CA or would sport one of those bright yellow "...known to the state of California to cause death or birth defects. Please wash your hands after using." stickers. (Same sticker I just saw on my Christmas lights.)

Best if they just increase the thickness of the pc boards, use better caps, make the structural components heavier, cut out all plastic, and bring back the noiseless toroidal power supply.

That would imply that the end game is about increasing quality rather than increasing their margins (which is really the only reason you'd outsource all this stuff to China in the first place).

With the exception of existing customers who still have a soft spot for Outlaw, I'm not sure where they hope to sell these things when you consider the wide variety of competing product that's already on the shelves at price points that Outlaw can't hope to match. At some point, they'll have to sort out whether they want to be in the quality business or the "moving lots of lower end product" business. The latter is already quite crowded with companies with significantly more resources.

I really wish Outlaw would focus their scarce resources on segments where they could differentiate themselves and offer real value. The more budget-minded "audiophile" market is sorely lacking an affordable digital multi-channel amp. Come out with something with spec's similar to the 7700 and a high efficiency digital design and folks would beat a path to their door.

Or they can just continue the path towards hawking other people's equipment with their "tweaks" and faceplate. Maybe that's what they want after all?

Best,

Getting the 978 out of their way may allow them to work on some other gear we could be interested in. Whatever happened to the replacement for the ICBM. A receiver based on the 978 would also be a logical solution. An extension of the capability of the OWA3 to a powered speaker system could also generate some interest.

Does anyone know approximately how many full time employees are at Outlaw? 10, 50, 100?

Isn't that where this "movie" started? -- with Sherwood-Newcastle? Can't imagine Outlaw revisiting that again, even flying solo. Mechanically, at least, it'd be a whole new ballgame and I would be surprised if there aren't still some patent or proprietary design issues that survived their parting of the ways. In fact, that may be the reason for some of the delays now.

You can list a bunch of technical reasons that have made this a difficult project -- moving target HDMI specs, choice of equalizer circuitry, tsunami in Japan, and perhaps a couple of others. But, during this same time frame hundreds of other electronic devices have been successfully designed and brought to market including cell phones, tablets, new technology TVs, medical devices and even audio equipment. Arguably, these devices are as complex, if not more so, than an audio preamp, even a sophisticated one.

There's no real new technology here; I see the design challenge as being largely mechanical or marketing based. A cell phone deals with rf, audio, video, computing, touch-screen displays, satellite signals, all in a small fraction of the volume of a preamp and every vendor seems to be able to bring to market several models per year. The preamp, by necessity of accommodating all the connections to the outside world must be physically large. But, they've already done one that was successful. They know how to build a quality preamp.

The financial viability of this project must be questioned. I have the impression that most high-end audiophiles are not in their 20s or 30s. Almost everyone on these forums already owns a preamp. The 978 would be a replacement for a previous purchase. I wonder how many of the 20 or 30 somethings who have been weaned on MP3 compression and think high end audio is a 12 inch-wide clock radio with a docking station, are ready to enter the high-end audio world? Is there really the expanding market that is required to support a business?

Another factor must be the revenue lost due to the potential customers unwilling to wait. These forums are littered with the receipts of tens of thousands of dollars in competitor sales - money that could have been returned to Outlaw had they thrown the same amount into solving their problem early on.

While I can't see a financial benefit to Outlaw to bring this to market at a competitive price point, to not do so would probably do irreparable harm to their reputation. One of the most difficult decisions in business is to know when to cut the losses. Their problem is that they need a preamp in their product line, to complete the signal chain.

7335 forum members, assume 95% are potential outlaw customers=
7000 customers.
Assume another 10% own Outlaw but not on forums= 7700 possible customers.
Guess 35% (prob high) would buy a 978 =2700 sales.
Price(?) $1900 x 2700 = $5.1 million
Say we're off by factor of 2; still $2.5m is sales. Say cost is 75% of selling price (prob high); profit = $625,000
Unlikely that would pay for R&D -- but while it might not sink the company, it would preserve their integrity. Worth something.

According to this:

http://www.manta.com/c/mm2xyfx/outlaw-audio

They've got "5 to 9" employees and have gross revenues in the $5-10mm/year range. Unless those sales figures are wrong, that's a vanishingly small number. That's a few thousand of their lower end amps.

They basically only need someone to answer the phone and fulfill orders since they don't actually manufacture anything themselves. Peter Tribeman is listed as the point of contact and he's also the president and CEO of ATI (the company that produces most of Outlaw's amps).

Best,

@Ritz -- We appreciate your astute evaluation of Outlaw, Inc. For two people (receptionist and shipping clerk) to generate $5 million in sales makes them a rather remarkable company. Too bad it's not publicly traded.

My sarcasm filter must be broken.

Google is your friend.

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=outlaw+audio+financials

Best,

Ritz, Peter is president at Atlantic Technology, a speaker company that is based in the Boston area (same as Outlaw). ATI is a completely different entity that operates out of California, and Peter has never been on staff there - prior to Atlantic Tech, he was at NAD for many years.

Oops, I think Gonk is correct. My bad. The names of the two companies are very similar. ATI (the amp company) is Morris Kessler's (who also started SAE...remember them?). Another person at SAE, Ed Miller, was also one of the founders of the earlier incarnation of Sherwood. Funny how the same names keep cropping up.

Best,

Sherwood is the local brand for a Korean company that developed the R-972 receiver which Outlaw was planning to use as the platform for the Model 997. Sherwood's parent company is no longer in the picture because the R-972 failed to meet Outlaw's requirements. The Model 978 was developed from the ground up in conjunction with a completely different manufacturing partner. A receiver version of the Model 978 would not have any relationship to the R-972, just as the Model 978 will have no relationship to the Model 997.

I don't think a receiver version of the Model 978 is likely to be practical, both considering the products they would be competing with and because they can simply bundle a Model 978 with a Model 7075 and achieve the same thing. That's just me, though, and I've been wrong before...


The 5-9 person count seems reasonable from what I've experienced when communicating with Outlaw. They have some staff that are involved in product development (such as Peter and Scott), although I doubt there's anyone who focuses solely on that, and they have some staff that are involved in sales and tech support and other business functions. Their design work is not all done in-house, because (as you noted) they can't support the payroll costs of having teams of engineers and software developers on staff for designing power amps, analog audio boards, digital audio boards, video processing boards, power supplies, and firmware when they develop such a wide range of products and keep them in production for such long life cycles. Good power amp designers would not necessarily be of any use on a surround processor or speaker design.

Outlaw's annual expenses will be purchasing (buying products from their manufacturing partners), R&D (paying designers or manufacturing partners for help in implementing new designs or updating existing designs), and then other things like payroll, rent, web hosting services, and advertising.

And someone posted recently that Jeff Hipps (who was at Sherwood for a number of years and was involved with the R-965, P-965, and R-972) is now at ATI. It's funny how this sort of thing happens in the consumer electronics industry.

It happens in other industries, too, of course. I have HVAC equipment vendors who have worked for several of the big names (including one quite good vendor who over the span of about two years ended up doing sales and engineering support for all four big names in chillers - Carrier, Trane, York, and then McQuay). I've seen architects and engineers bounce between design firms, too.

For whatever reason, there is still a real lack of choice when it comes with Audyssey XT32 components. But I agree, and I'm sure they know this too, the longer the 978 takes to get out of the door, the more sales they lose.

FWIW, they're getting very close to losing mine, and it gives me no pleasure to say so.

Gary- What would you choose instead though?

I'm currently pricing the Integra DHC-80.3 which is certainly overkill for me and costs more than I really wanted to spend. OTOH, it certainly has all the features I want. Most importantly, it's not vaporware, and seems well supported by Onkyo.

I'm also curious to see whether Marantz introduces a successor to the AV7005 at this year's CES.

I keep hoping for a successor to the AV7005 too.

I had looked at Onkyo before too, but I just get scared off with all the hardware problems. The last one I came across was some kind of HDMI (or USB? can't remember) board failure or something several months back on the 80.2.

Another one:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1386047

I'll be curious to see who's hardware is under the covers when it eventually ships. D&M Holdings (Denon/Marantz Chinese stuff) seems like a likely candidate.

Best,

I appreciate the fact that some posters have an awfull lot of equipment that they no longer use but I fail to see how mentioning it / the country of origin is helpful to other users of the forum.

It would be like a member of automotive forum listing out every Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Saturn, Mercury, AMC, DeSoto et cetera that they may have once driven and mentioning how poorly constructed vehicles from Detroit or Springhill or Milwaukee were...

More than a little annoying that these sorts of things are still in the "978 Release Date" thread too.

If it's annoying, don't read it. The world is a big place and perhaps there are some folks in it that have opinions that diverge from yours.

*shrug*

Indeed.

Perhaps if info not related to the 978 Release Date is confined to a separate thread that would be helpful...

Since Outlaw has been mum on the release date, I guess we can close this thread altogether if that is the only subject we are permitted to discuss. My guess on the release date is 4/1/2012. Anyone else??

I think someone with only 8 posts (75% of them are in this thread) in 10 years ought to decide what gets to be discussed in this forum. LOL

Best case guess for me is sometime in March or April. They won't get any useful work out of the Chinese until mid-February due to the new year festivities.

Best,

I think you've picked a very good over/under date. I'm going to take the under since Peter mentioned the purpose of Scott's visit to China was to address "several software issues" standing in their way. Software issues can be quickly solved or take months. The fact that Scott had to go to China to solve them could mean that's all it'll take to finalize the 978, or it could be so serious it requires his presence. I'm going to be optimistic and say first quarter is the new target and they'll soon be taking preorders. Call me crazy, I know.

I'll take over. I think Outlaw's conservative approach is going to drive the release date later rather than sooner.

Maybe Outlaw can offer a little additional discount for those who get the over/under correct?

The only audio manufacturer that releases products on 4/1 is that famous firm run by one Dr. Loof Lirpa.

Funny that there is no shortage of cell phones, tablet computers, flat screen displays or any of the many other products that must be manufactured through the "traditional flight to the countryside" that happens around the "new year's festivities"...

On the interwebs humor vs sarcasm are hard to discern and the saying of 18th century French playwright / satirist Caron de Beaumarchais is most fully seen: "It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them."

I wish they would have added an RS 232 port . Will the 998 have one?

Athanasios

We don't know the final feature set for the Model 998. Are you looking to use the RS232 port for control?

THAT man must have envisioned the internet! How well that applies to forums I've been on. The under thirties live by that motto.

"If it's on the internet, it must be true."

Hello. Back again. I am also waiting for the release of the Outlaw 978, XXXX. When it is available, I will purchase one. I can wait. The 990 still out performs what I see and here at my local "high end" store. (at the very least, the price.)I had a Kenwood KR 2600 receiver back in the day. It worked, and most important, I liked it. The ease of use, and the sound reproduction was, to me great. It was only 40 watts. I started going to pre amp, power amp systems shortly after that, which was my first "major purchase" That was 1976. I have people come over to the house asking what was Outlaw Audio. They never heard of it, but Outlaw Audio isn't around every corner in my town, or your town. My son has the 970/7075 system in his house. He told me this evening, his friend wants to invest into Outlaw products. Which is good for Outlaw, not me, or my son, or you. I still stand to what I believe. They still serve the public with quality products for sale, and I will wait a quite while longer before I even think about replacing my 990. Please keep in mind, this is my opinion. I can go somewhere else, but I feel Outlaw has the consumer in mind, me,and you, not their profit margin in hand. Again, this is my opinion. Thanks for reading this.

I'm going under.

-Optimist.

Update time?

"Update! Don't need no stinkin' update - just need shippin' date!"

This is like G-N-R's Chinese Democracy CD. Axel Rose said it was almost ready, but took way too long. I think the Chinese may end up with a Democracy before.....

The lack of a recent update after Scott came back from China could be a sign that things did not go as planned, but it could also mean that they are too busy getting ready to release the 978 that they haven't got time to update us. I hope someone takes a short break and tells us something.

Peter indicated one would be forthcoming upon Scott's return...he just didn't say how soon after Scott's return an update would be issued. I would imagine that even if things went well, there may be a few things to iron out before giving an update.

In addition to further clarity on the pending release date, there are still details on the product description page that could be further detailed. Hopefully our longsuffering will soon be rewarded and we'll know more about this elusive product!

I can't wait to be commenting in forums discussing the actual performance of this pre/pro.

I can't wait for this thing to finally come out one of these aeons so we could be commenting in the forums discussing the actual performance of this pre/pro.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ................................!!!!!!!!

It sure would be nice to get SOME kind of update from Peter regardless of what it is.... :-/

XenonMan, I just noticed you have the Large Advent speakers, so to post something other than "still waiting on word about the 978", I thought I'd say that I still have my Large Advents that I bought around 1973. A couple of years ago, I replaced the crossover caps and re-coned the woofers and they sound good - make for a nice gameroom or garage speaker pair. Some day I'll refinish the walnut veneer.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

Yeah, I have had mine since 1976. I have refoamed them several times but for $20 you can't beat the sound. I use them in a 3.1 system for watching TV and they are fabulous. I even have a set of replacement tweeters just in case I smoke em sometime. I keep them protected with a one amp sloblo fuse so They are in good shape.

>I use them in a 3.1 system for watching TV and they are fabulous.<

I dropped my surrounds and moved to a 3.1 when I remodeled the living room. Perhaps I am getting older but 3.1 seems perfect for me. I don’t think I would ever want to drop the center or the Sub from the mix when watching a movie. Anyone else move to 3.1?


Bob

Surrounds are good if done right - a lot of people use direct radiating traditional boxes, and they turn up the volume a bit much, so the "surround" effect is not very surrounding. Bipole or dipole speakers work well.

Looks like Emotiva has beaten Outlaw to the punch as their processor is coming out this summer. The XMC-1 $1499 with Tact correction

Whoa, here I thought spring was before summer.

[quote=Hank]Surrounds are good if done right - a lot of people use direct radiating traditional boxes, and they turn up the volume a bit much, so the "surround" effect is not very surrounding. Bipole or dipole speakers work well. [/quote

Except, I don't believe that Dolby recommends Bipole/dipole speaker any longer. I believe that was an artifact of the original dolby surround. FWIW, Yamaha always recommended direct speakers.

"Looks like Emotiva has beaten Outlaw to the punch as their processor is coming out this summer."

Making an announcement is not the same as releasing a product for purchase. Nobody has beaten anybody to the punch yet.

More news from Outlaw would be nice, but I'm in no rush.

Paul

Like Outlaw, Emotiva doesn't have a particularly enviable record with releasing product on time and their birthing pains with the UMC-1 firmware were/are pretty painful for early adopters.

They also have the negative stigma associated with outsourcing all their production to China.

That said, the partnership with Tact for room correction is interesting, especially at their intended price point.

Best,

Wasn't there quite a few problems with their prior SSP?

I think they all have some issues when the processor first gets released.
Without doubt Emotiva will have some issues when their new processor is released, so will Outlaw. I own processors from both companies and neither is without issues.
Who remembers changing out chips in their 950?

I had a 950, and all the known issues were fixed by Outlaw. Never had an Emotiva, but my impression is that the problems with that one were a lot worse? How is the room EQ correction on the UMC-1? Anything close to Audyssey?

Can anyone tell me if the Outlaw 978 will have better video processing? It seems that MOST of what I read on the forum is audio capabilities and not video.
I just happened to read a review on the Integra 80.3 processor and it looks as if it is a fine piece of equipment both in video and audio and I am wondering if the 978 will be a contender.

Thanks

I am not sure what you mean by better. As compared with what?

FWIW, per the announcement of the 998 delay and the 978

I have never seen an exact statement of exactly what chip set Outlaw will be using. Anchor Bay was acquired last year by Silicon Images which now licenses its IP property so its possible that equivalent functionality could be imbedded into some customized chip.

Hi All,



I am curious about the interest in video processing on the 978 or any processor. Is it just a matter of convenience? I would imagine a true videophile would want to run the cable direct from source?

Thanks Bob

I had a Emotiva in my bedroom setup, did not care for it at all. The volume button on that massive metal remote quit working after a few months, AC power plug on the amp pulled out every time I removed the factory power cord, the 12v trigger circut on the amp from the processor went bad after a year. I forget the model numbers, they were one step-down from their top of the line products and I purchased them soon after my 990/7700 for a second setup. The build & sound quality was not even in the same class as my Outlaw products which have been used many years longer then my Emo gear was and have yet to give me a single problem. I don't know why they get the great reviews they do unless their has been a drastic improvement in their QC & components.

Still waiting for the 978, plan to dump my Integra 80.2 - great processor but those damn relay clicks bothered me so much I had to disable my subwoofers in setup to stop it.

The problem is that in many cases the picture doesn't come from the directly from the source and the source standards vary. Cable and satellite companies and video streamers like Netflix step all over the pictures they send in order to reduce bandwidth. Pictures also come in different resolutions and may be interlaced and the various boxes, players and TV's often do a less then stellar job of upscaling and deinterlacing. Good video processors can help fix many of these problems. Per the ABT PDF on the ABT2015:

My Onkyo includes ISF capable video adjusts. It allows me to change the picture on my screen to suit my preferences. I set it initially and let it do its thing in Auto for the most part. All of my video is upscaled to 1080i and a lot of times I can't tell a difference when the native source is providing 1080i or the Onkyp is upscaling. Many TVs allow the same adjustments but they are normally done by a tech. The Onkyo just gives my old Samsung the capability when I need it.

I can understand this but is the processor the best place for all this work to occur? Would the TV or projector be a better place?

Thanks

Bob

Bob: The best argument I can make is that by having the audio and video processing in the same device, delays caused by time required to process the two different signals can be accounted for and adjusted. If the video delay is created in the TV after the audio signal is split out, thert is no way to synch the signals again. This is of course assuming that the TV manufacturer is willing to pay to put in the processing capabilities.

73Bruin:Good point, the next thing folks will be asking for amps in their processors. Seriously, its amazing how many duplicate option are being put into multiple devices. For example, connectivity apps (Netflix), BD players, TV’s, AVR’s and single use boxes.

I see you are a fan of NHT. I was just thinking of upgrading my SuperOnes to Classic 3’s.

Bob

Bob: Philosophically, I would prefer that hardware based functions be located where they can do the most (e.g. why put high quality DAC's in CD Players, DVD/BluRay Players, and streaming devices plus the audio processor. Therefore, my preference would be to put as much non-mechanical functionality as possible into the audio processor.

As for the NHT's. My main system was not so much the result of a preference for NHT as it was compromize with my better half. I traded out my beloved DQ-10's for the NHT's plus a wide screen TV. The rest was momentum.

Has anyone else noticed that the Aug. 2, 2011 update regarding the Model 978 was unceremoniously expunged from this forum 2 or 3 weeks ago (I missed the exact date)? One can only guess why, but there is now no officially published update since Jan. 26, 2011, more than a year ago...

Edit: It occurs to me that the only real "news" in that now-absent update related to the inclusion of the vaunted ESS DACs (yes, there was also the bit about the switching power supply). Curious...

Odd. There is still a link to the 8/2/11 update on the product page, but it goes nowhere. I suspect it was lost in error.

I suspect you're being much too charitable.

That's most of it. The rest can still be seen in the google cache if you're curious.

I suspect that no one wants to get the 978 out faster than Outlaw. I also suspect they have run into some unexpected (well many) snags in development. It would be nice to get some news from Outlaw one way or another. Lots of loyal fans here.

Too bad there is not any good low cost(<1K) competitors. If someone like Yamaha or Denon removed the amps out of one of their receivers and called it a pre/pro, do you think it would sell? Probably only a niche market for that sort of thing.

Bob

Well as of yesterday Feb 3 Audioholics announced Emotiva's new XMC-1 pre/pro. Check out the site and the short intro by them. This is not a full review. Emotiva wants $1499 for this unit. I am not sure I am willing to pay that kind of money for an EMO. If that is the case I would be willing to first go with the 978 provided the price is respectable, then the Marantz 7005. One or the other but nothing else. With EMO's track record of early adoptor problems I would be skeptical.

What about the DHC-40.2, have you head anything about this one? A bit less expensive compared to the Marantz. Bob

I imagine Emotiva is going to deliver a much better product this time without all the bugs. I listened to the entire audio dialog while making pizza dough and it seems they've invested in a lot of quality outside work to complete this unit. I'm not an Emotiva fanboy and I don't own any of their products but after what happen with the UMC-1 I can't imagine they'd release something that isn't polished and fully functional.

The release date is slated for June/July.

I'm curious about the TACT TCS 3 e room correction they're using.

Not much word from Gonk recently!! Could he be "too busy" like in December? Could it be that a second round of beta testing is in progress?

If the Emotiva was announced recently but will not be available for purchase until June/July (which probably means August), then I imagine the 978 will not enjoy the presence of our company until the fall.

I imagine it's possible that all is going well and Peter is about to announce some great news. Even so, from announcement to our living rooms will take some time. I f all is not well, then I expect to see some more great Outlaw deals on Marantz pre/pro's and receivers.

I don't see the correlation? I believe Outlaw is much more tight lipped than Emotiva and I'm hoping we'll see something in the next few months.

The correlation is time between announcement and actually delivery to customer. You have stated in a previous post concerning Emotiva: "The release date is slated for June/July" which is 5 months from now which is consistent with a lot of new products released to the market.

Just take a look at most consumer electronic such as TV's or even observe the musical instrument companies. From the time that they actual show a new product to when it's actually available to you is always a period of time. The new Tv lines were shown last month but will not start to be available until the end of March through the end of June. The new Yamaha, Denon's and Onkyo we read about 6 months before we can purchase one.

That brings us back to Outlaw. They haven't even officially announced the 978 is set to go and being sent to manufacturer. As far as we know, or best guess, there are some units being tested. So lets assume for sake of discussion that Outlaw does the grand unveiling this week. Just how long from now do you think that Fedex will drop one at our door?

If the 990 is any indication, it was announced as a surprise and shipped two weeks later. The 978 has been in the works for almost three years. Outlaw wants to get it perfect,but once they do I would think you will be able to buy one pretty quickly. Certainly less than 6 months.

Let's hope that's the way it works. The 990 was manufactured in Korea, the 978 in P.R.C. Does the location matter? I don't know. But this time it's no surprise and how many customers are left that are waiting to upgrade? I hope my speculation is wrong we can accept delivery in two weeks from soon.

Peter, update please sir!

The "model" that a certain computer / consumer electronics maker has of being highly secretive and then having a "Major Annoucement" followed by lines around its stores and hundreds of thousands units sold in a single day must surely be a fantasy for most folks that run other consumer electronics firms...

The unfortunate side effect of any announcement that comes before products have passed successfully through a beta test and into "full production" is that many buyers become disillusioned. There is a drift toward alternative products and more than a little "sour grapes" when the desired product finally does ship.

It does not take a super skilled MBA Marketing Genius to understand that once a firm adopts a model of "open communication" they need to to continue to provide feedback that will keep shoppers excited and "on the bus" instead of jumping ship to competing products.

Of course there are very real challenges for any audio company working to meet the demanding specs of current HDCP / HDMI handshake protocols and the risk that one runs in talking openly of those challenges is that not only might potential buyers be worried as to the number / size of the hurdles that come up but competitors and industry licensing programs might use such disclosures in an anti-competitive manner.

I fully understand why "the big guys" have in house lawyers to vet all such communication and I hope that even Outlaws can figure out a way to soon send up some "white smoke" about when the big container ship might reasonably be expected in port...

I agree and to carry this a little further, it has a lot to do with what you are selling.

That "model" that you mentioned is selling a product that covers almost every age group because they are selling phones, computers, iPads/Tablets and all these products are exciting and must have's to a lot of people especially the young folks. Receivers, prep/pros are not that exciting to most people and certainly are not must have's. I would imagine that the majority of people walking down the street would not know what you are talking about.

That brings us to the "open" or "secretive" strategy. I think that Outlaw has been open about the 978 and to be fair it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to keep repeating "we're working on it". I'm sure that they are having issues with the software as well as compatibility. That stuff is going to take some time. Which leads me to believe that when the 978 is set to go, they will make an announcement and possible start preorders at least a couple of months in advance or maybe longer. Too keep silent until the warehouse here in the good ole U.S.A. is stocked doesn't seem wise to me because every month your losing sales with people giving up and purchasing someone else's product. I would tell the last remaining loyal followers that it's on the way...soon.

I agree, keep your potential buyers and past "loyal" buyers informed. When there is silence people tend to give up and look elsewhere to make their purchase. I for one would like to support a made in the usa product, but I really don't want to wait till...who knows when till it comes out. They need to bring it to market before it becomes obsolete and outdated.

Do you think the 978 will be made in the U.S.?

^^^

No, of course not.



As much as some of us would like to see that.


And I shall repeat: I personally don't think you can over-communicate with your (potential) customers, but that doesn't seem to be the tact that Outlaw is taking for the 978 unfortunately.

One would think that if there was anything positive to report after the field trip to China a MONTH ago, we'd have heard about it by now.

My bad, maybe that was wishful thinking that they would be building it here in the USA. It is almost impossible to find anything made here anymore.

The rather negative presumptiveness "that no news == bad news" is not really based on any reality.

The various hats that the Outlaw staff have to wear could be reason enough to cause some delays in communication -- there have been hints that some units have been in a limited beta, and the "kinks" that had to be worked out overseas might have involved a wider range issues beyond technical gotchas. Everything from shipper reliability to vendor extoration negotiations can impact the ability to have sufficient product en route to let followers know the timeline...


I want the bugs worked out, and I want to know what is a realistic shipping date, but I don't need to hear that there was an outbreak of dysentary or whatever that idled product for weeks.

For the record, so far all the news on the 997/998/978 hasnt been what I would call good news.

Going back to my observation from last week (above), I also wonder how many others noticed that, before it was removed, the now-absent update to which I refer was stickied to the top of every single thread on this forum, in addition to its expected posting under the "Announcements" heading. That always struck me as very odd, but I figured that Outlaw simply wanted maximum exposure of the update's contents to all forum visitors. It must have taken some effort to remove all traces of it.

Which brings me to the point I wish to make... I can't see any reason for deliberately removing that update unless one or both of its two main revelations (ESS DACs, switching power supply) will no longer be true of the "finished" product. I can't see the power supply as a cause for unresolvable firmware issues, so I have to wonder whether the ESS DACs have been dropped. That wouldn't necessarily be the end of the world - there are excellent alternatives - but at this stage of the game could result in even longer delays. Food for thought...

I too noticed the curious effects of what appears to have been a pretty thorough "search and delete: function"...

Part of me believes that due to the speed with which DACs are evolving / dropping in price it is unwise to include in a pre-pro at all . Now I can completely understand how / why the marketing of a new pre-pro might be temporarily enhanced by touting the inclusive of a DAC, but the long term value of that DAC may be first part of the purchase that the gadget minded digital audio enthusiast might regret.

I suspect that the relative turmoil among the manufacturers and marketers of OEM grade DACs is also a significant factor in trying to pin down a stable supply of usable components. While theoretically any given OEM DAC ought to be "plug & play" with another, the details of integrating signal paths could very well get tricky...

Further I can easily imagine that the dissolution of one supplier relationship would result in a "late night purge" of any public mention of prior promises.


The "tea leaf reading" and general sleuthing that occurs when there are a lack of official annoucements is similarly something that the Outlaws could / should have imagined.

Exactly, and it seems like I wasn't the only one that noticed the "cleansing" of a previous announcement about the 978. While Outlaw has no obligation to be transparent, they have gone WAY out of their way in the past to give the appearance of transparency so the fact that this has stopped makes you wonder about the progress of the battle in China.

Call me a pessimist...call me a realist...but recent history would dictate that all might not be well. Any tidbits of info showing the glass being half full would certainly be welcomed by their customer base (certainly THIS customer), while continued opacity will likely be met with more legacy customers buying elsewhere.

Best,

I think it's about time to look for other options...... SUCKS!

That is what I was afraid of. Yet more discouraging news about the ever invisible 978. By the time this blows over they will bring out the 979.

Their R&D will get so expensive that a finished unit will be over 2k.

GaryB,

Please allow me to clear up a little confusion regarding the August update's disappearance. When one of the forum admins posted the NL, it was uploaded as a "sticky" in every section of the forum. At some point within the last few weeks, I attempted to correct the global announcement by limiting its posting to the "Announcements" section as we do with all of our newsletters. I was unaware until just now, that the post had been completely removed.

This was not intentional (in fact, the original link from the Model 978 product page is still there)! I will go back to the original NL and re-post the update in the Announcements section where it should have been preserved.

As far as a new update is concerned, there are still items that must be resolved before we can provide another newsletter. We know we are overdue. We are working day and night to get this right. Once the outstanding items have been addressed we will provide an update/schedule for the Model 978's availability.

Best,
Scott

Thanks Scott. But it would be nice to have an understanding of what "items" need to be resolved. I think many of us here want to know what's causing the current delay.

You can never over communicate with your (potential) customers.

Scott, thank you for reposting the August update.

Rob

Thanks, Scott... I accept your explanation. In fairness, I know that you and Peter check the forum from time to time and when nobody responded to my original (Feb. 3) post regarding the missing update, I had to assume it (the update) was removed intentionally, despite the persistent broken link on the product page, of which I was well aware.

None of the above addresses my growing misgivings about this entire project, however, which appear to be shared by others, as you are no doubt aware. I await your next newsletter with interest, but I'm not willing to wait forever.

Respectfully,
GaryB

The newsletter (from August) has been restored:
http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Model...aid=8GuQdoKV-b0

No changes in the specs / photos. I guess the speculation about why the software tweaks are taking so long to get right can resume..

Now all we need is our semi-annual update and we can speculate even more ferociously.

Peter/Scott,

Scott's been back from China about a month now. Can we get some information on where we stand? Are these issues pushing the release date back a month, a quarter or two, or ...?

It's closing on 2 months. You'd think if they had anything positive to report we'd have heard *something* by now.

Run silent, run deep is probably not the best way to handle this.

Best,

Peter, just an update please, regadless of what it is. I know the Marantz is a fine piece of gear, for about the same price point......I feel as though I've financially invested in you all and an update would be good please sir!

I don't think that you will get an update until they have an approximate availability date, which I do not believe that they have at this point.

I just posted this on the Alternate Pre thread - should have posted it here, I suppose:

I traded PM's with Peter last week. They have made significant progress lately (probably having to do with the China trip), but he does not want to post an expected production date here until VERY sure it would be realistic, as Outlaw has been called "liar" when previous estimated dates were missed, and they are very sensitive to that. Sorry, he gave no details. I did tell him the saloon is full of very restless cowpokes.

I don't recall anyone "accusing" them of lying. There were some questions about competence and realism, but I don't think anyone said anything about intentional deception.

If they would prefer to say nothing, that's their prerogative. However, I'm of the opinion that it's better to keep those lines of communication open and show some steady progress rather than an "all or nothing" kinda thing...especially when they're already quite far behind the 8 ball.

Best,

I wonder if they'll do anything during the AXPONA show, they're not on the exhibitor list and frankly neither are too many other commpanies that are similar to their target...

Seriously, some sort of update would be nice. I'm very close to jumping ship. If we at least had an idea, I would consider waiting. Thanks for the LFM EX and the 7700 Outlaw.

After Peter's tease I wonder if we can have a little March Madness type pool / bracket here...

Line on Outlaw beating Emotiva to ship???

Price match up for the "finals"?

I would put money on Outlaw shipping first. Name a figure.

I'm looking forward to the announcement, launch and reviews. I haven't purchased anything and my 990 is working great.

I'll put my money on Outlaw. I have no experience with Emotiva and their unit sounds interesting, but can't wait to hear what beta testers have to say when the NDA is lifted.

I should hope so...when was the original 997 announced again? LOL

Feature-wise, the Emotiva product is much more interesting to me. Neither company has been particularly confidence inspiring in the home theater processor business for the past few years. That said, if both units come out around the same time and both function as advertised, I'd be much more inclined to purchase the XMC-1 than the 978. Tact is THAT good, but we'll see how things play out. I'll go further and say that the 978 isn't particularly interesting, in general, unless they've been adding missing features during these last "run silent run deep" months.

Ritz2

OK, I'll bite. Why do you think that the XMC-1 is more interesting then the 978? Other than Audyssey vs. TACT I'm not seeing the major differences. Is it the quality of the DACs or the DSPs? Do we even know for sure what will be in either of them?

Granted, I'm not an expert on either of these units, so please don't flame me. I'm just curious as to why you made that statement.

Regards,
Mark

I'd say the XMC is mildly interesting until you see things like no video processing, only 1 HDMI out, and another unproven room correction component at this price point. I've seen photos of it and it's the usual overly blue impact with all of the lights. But seeing as to how their last pre-pro(UMC) was such a troubled product, many will take a wait and see attitude with the next one. Emotiva is positively giddy about the XMC, but they were about the UMC as well and it left me disenchanted with them that they could be so wrong.

I'm looking to upgrade to separates in my theater and am anticipating that the 7125 or 7200 will be added shortly. Emotiva doesn't even have a 7 channel amp, and they've introduced and cancelled so many amps and other products it gives the impression that they are still trying to find their way, fair enough, but it won't be on my dime.

To be honest, I likely wouldn't buy a processor from either company at this stage. Neither one is particularly credible with respect to their processors at this stage of the game. That said, the features of the XMC-1 can be found here:

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/processors/products/xmc1

Given the choice between two budget processors produced by direct-to-consumer companies that manufacture in China, the Outlaw effort is the lesser product (to my eye) based purely on the published specs. Once they actually come up with shipping products and we can do a true apples to apples comparison, perhaps my view will change.

Best,

Well, today is Tuesday and PT said there would be an announcement this week. Based on PT's reliability I would think that all of this speculation and comparisons will soon be put to rest in a little more than 72 hours.

I checked out the Emotiva site and their new upcoming soon to be released Emotiva XMC-1 and I like the looks of this unit but will say the blue might be a little much for my liking. Also the allowance for only one HDMI output makes me nervous about future product connections. I have had an itch now to upgrade for some time but have been doing my best to remain a loyal customer to Outlaw Audio. Having met both Scott and Peter Tribeman I can value their enthusiasm and dedication to Outlaw Audio. I think that the process of developing the 978 has been a not so easy road traveled. I have confidence that the Outlaw 978 will come to the market arena as with other products from Outlaw that we will be smitten with their style and much more important their performance in the Home Theater and two channel stereo genre.

Not to mention Outlaws tech support for all of the occasions that I personally called that hot line in desperation to find out what I was doing wrong or if there was a malfunction in my 990 was always professionally handled and I was always satisfied to my satisfaction with their service and advice.

I am anxiously awaiting the red carpet to be rolled out for a new venue of Outlaw products.

I think Peter promised early this week. I'm thinking anything after today would not qualify.

The bigger problem for me with the Emotiva is their poor track record for reliable hardware and software. At least when Outlaw puts a product out, you know it will be supported in a timely manner. (That's been my personal experience, anyway.) I'm not sure that's the case with what I've read about previous Emotiva products, and particularly their most recent processor.

That would indeed make me nervous (about buying an Emotiva product) so I don't think I'd be an early adopter. I remember when I first got my Outlaw 990 back in 2005, I had a few issues as well that were eventually solved by firmware updates (and that was a bit of an exciting process for me the first couple of times).

While Outlaw support has been good to me in the past, I have what I feel are valid concerns about support for this new processor if there are issues in the future. It seems that they handed off a list of specifications to a Chinese partner and are dependent on them for both the hardware and firmware. That's not a particularly good position to be in...ask me how I know... lol

I look forward to seeing someone or some magazine/blog/etc do a head to head comparison of both products.

Best,

There were two things that I liked about the XMC-1.

1) The specifications included a listing of at least some of the specific component chips.

2) The use of a Linux system for the ARC software. Of course Gonk will tell me that such a system would not be used for audio processing.

I am also worried that the 978 apparently is already running out of memory. It seems like my concern from March 2010 about memory and the 978 were valid. I won't be surprised if the 978 ends up losing some functionality as a result.

Uh, what is your fear of memory regarding the 978 based on? Remember, 2 years is a generation where technology is concerned.

At any rate, the XMC is a very long way from a bug free introduction, and seeing as to how their UMC was such a travesty foisted on an unsuspecting public, you might do well to take a wait and see attitude to see if the drop outs, freeze ups, random blasts and black outs show up on the XMC as well. It took them 2 years to solve the bugs and some customers are still complaining.

I agree with Sharkey on this. Emotiva needs to get their unit out and tested in the real world. The XMC needs to be PROVEN bug free by the Emo diehards before one can consider in buying it.

You are misreading my concern. My concern about the 978's memory was based upon PeterT's latest post



Peter's comment was like a warning shot over the bow to me. First it made me remember that the companion product to the 990, the Sherwood 965 eventually included a parametric equalizer that was never implemented on the 990 (supposedly due to memory issues). Second, it brought back memories of design choices I had to personally make when designing applications for hardware systems that were severely memory constrained (including a 48K IBM System 7). In that environment, I knew that including one type of functionality might result in the loss of other types of functionality. Consequently, I tied the two together and speculated that 978 might lose some functionality as a result.

I am made no representations about the XMC other than I liked they posted the chips that were being used and their room TACT room correction software was being implemented via a Linux based system (which is what I recommended Outlaw do 2 years ago).

Do you think the XMC processor is coming out of the Sherbourn folks?

emotiva acquires sherbourn technologies

-Bob

Hadn't heard anything to that effect, but given the price points of Sherbourn's products, maybe that was what got them in the door with Tact. It will also allow them to differentiate their markets a bit without cannibalizing sales. Emotiva/Sherbourn could be the audio equivalent of Honda/Acura, Chevy/Cadillac, or VW/Audi. You give people a taste of what you're capable of on the budget brand and then have a premium brand to "upsell" them to down the line.

Best,

Good call on the memory concern by 73Bruin. Right on the $$$$$.

Hey Outlaw -

Would it be possible to have some pictures of the latest version of the 978? And the dimensions?


Thanks

Yes, he obviously knows what he's talking about. I guess only time will tell what effects this has on functionality. Still, they have come a long way on the 978 and if it's released with a minimum of bugs it will breath new life into Outlaw.

The dimensions for the 978 are now up on the product page.

Good catch... I guess I was just about spot on in my predictions above from last year.

Unfortunately, it's looking more and more likely that I'm going to be more interested in the dimensions of the Integra 80.3 or the equivalent Onkyo 5509, especially if rumors regarding the imminent North American release of the latter are true.

Don't know about you guys, but after reading the latest update on the progress of the 978, I have no worries about memory or any other spec of the machine. Engineering is always a compromise between what is wanted and the constraints of economics and design limitations. Compared with some other competitors, Outlaw has a deserved reputation for producing quality products which they stand behind 100%, and I believe their knowledge of that biases many production decisions and has contributed to some of the delays.

As to the 'slingers or others posing threats of jumping ship due to lack of a date specific... jump away. Thankfully these threats have had little direct impact on Outlaw's development process. After all, who is more anxious to start writing orders than they? Obviously the development and production are proceeding as fast as possible.

I'm guessing we're at 90% of the total wait time. I'm hanging on for the final 10%. My only worry now is my budget...

^^^^^ +1 ^^^^^

While I do agree with the above comments on the development process, I have to object to the use of the term "jumping ship" - some of us simply needed to/wanted to replace old equipment, and Outlaw did not have a replacement available to order. It has nothing to do with jumping ship and is certainly not a "threat", although, if a ship was doing donuts in the middle of the ocean for a couple of years and another ship came along to bring me to dry land, I'd take it.

Kudos, Lou. GREAT post.

And thank you.

^^^^^+2^^^^^


Just for example...

Emotiva's XPA-5 power amp costs $900
Outlaw's 7500 power amp costs $1600 (Outlaw's amp is a much better built amp)

Outlaw doesn't build cheapo stuff. I bought the 7500 and I am tickled multicolour about it.

Now Emotiva has their new pre/pro listed at $1500. With all the R&D that Outlaw has done on the 978 do you think that this thing will be "affordable"? I somehow doubt the 978 will be the same $1500 as the Emo or $1600 as their 7500 amp.

I am faithfully waiting for the 978 and have little doubt it will be one great appliance. The problem is the cost of the unit may be higher than my budget will allow. If it is then the most I can go on a pre-pro would be the Marantz 7005.

No one has said a word about the price except when the 998 was first mentioned to be in development. I think Outlaw is shooting for a price around $1500. Any higher than that and they run the risk of losing their best bang for the buck status.

Thanks Xenonman. I'm sure hoping for this affordability.

With the amp comparison, one of them is made in China, which accounts for some of the difference. With the pre-pro comparison, I think they both will be made "back east" so the manufacturing part of the price tag would be similar.

As has been mentioned, I concur that Outlaw would use more robust parts in their amps when you simply compare transformer sizes, output device numbers and THD at rated power with the Emotiva amps. Well, you can't compare parts for THD, but why Emotiva spec'ed their amps to do .1% THD at full rated power is a cost saving measure in my opinion. Surely it costs more to spec amps to do rated power at .03 or thereabouts as Outlaws amps do? Which also gives them more clean headroom before getting into audible distortion.

I haven't looked inside an Emotiva amp so I'll take your word for it about the quality of the parts. I do like the fact that they publish the actual test results for their amps online. 0.1% THD at rated power isn't too shabby. THD at rated power for Outlaw's flagship 7900 is .05% (0.05% better) so I don't find the 0.1% at rated power value to be bad.

When I originally loaded up on Outlaw gear, I did so based on looking at the innards of a friend's 755. It was built like the proverbial brick outhouse. Given Outlaw's move to cheaper offshore-produced product in other arenas, I can't help but wonder what's going to become of the relationship they have with ATI for their USA-manufactured multichannel amps.

Best,

Hey Ritz

I think Outlaw is a committed company to good quality no matter where they build their products. Case in point look at the 978 and Outlaw's commitment and obsession in bringing out a good product. As for their amplifiers, I'm sure they will continue their business relationship with ATI. I'm not sure where overseas very high powered, high quality amplifiers are built and at a good price to boot. I own the 7500 and I have taken many hi-res photos of the unit posted on Bluray.com. True these amplifiers are awesome which is what gives Outlaw a good name. Play with that and they will be shot up.

Hello all,

When we started Outlaw over 12 years ago, our first product was the 750, a multi-channel amplifier built by ATI. We chose them because they always consistently spec extremely high quality parts (especially in their transformers and output device). In addition their layout, heat management and avoidance of pesky audible gremlins (such as cross talk) is among the best in the industry. When you purchase an Outlaw multi-channel amp, you expect it to sound great, meet (or exceed) its published specs, and to be reliable for years.
While we are not "expensive" we will never be the lowest price. Despite what we all desire, there are no real shortcuts to meeting these standards. For those of you that still own that original Model 750, here's an intersting calculation: divide the price you paid by the number of years it has powered your system(s) The value lies in the constant performance and longevity of that and our other multi-channel amps


We suggest that unless your needs (or wants) for power or number of channels change, there should not be a need to buy another Outlaw amplifier. While that statement is not great for our sales it is an undeniable fact and demonstrates our confidence in our own amps.

Thank you ATI and Thank you, our loyal Outlaw Customers

Peter

Indeed! Peter, I have been wanting a 7900 for a while and just missed the awesome offer during the holidays due to having just bought a pile of gifts for the family. I really, really, REALLY hope a sweet package deal is offered with the 978 or another one of the new products coming out.

Cheers!

I can atest for what Peter says. I still have the 750 and it still performs wonderfully. I purchased it not long after release and have never had an issue. I only upgraded to the 7900 because of the bargain it was at the holidays and I wanted a 7 channel amplifier. The 750 is still in use in the game room. Just not in my media room.

I thought that was a pretty bold statement by PeterT regarding the Outlaw Amps. But then I started to think that I haven't seen much buzz in the forums over amps failing, only processors. A quick search of the amp forums showed only one topic back from 2008.

So my question is: Has anyone had any failures with an Outlaw amp? I haven't but my 7075 is only two years old.

I bought my 7700 in May of last year. When the unit arrived, I couldn't get sound out of it. After much testing on my own, I finally determined that I only had one channel providing amplification to my speakers. I called Outlaw, and within seven minutes of the start of the call, the customer service rep agreed with me, apologized for sending me a bad unit, and said they'd ship me a new one immediately, and all I had to do was box up the lemon and prepare it to leave with the same delivery guy who brought me the new unit.

The second unit arrived a few days later, and I've had no problems at all with it. Works just the way it should, and provides me excellent SQ, whether I'm listening to vinyl in two-channel, or watching a Blu-ray in multichannel.

I would agree that Outlaw's reputation in the amplifier segment is great...which is why I'm a little disappointed that so much effort has been seemingly squandered on releasing products outside of that core. The multi-year swing/miss cycles for the successor to the 990 have been pretty embarrassing. I also think it's a bit silly to branch off into table radios, cables, surge supressors, etc....but what do I know.

I've only had one Outlaw product fail. One of my LFM-1's lost the amp after only a couple of weeks. They shipped me a new one and I replaced it. Haven't had any problems since. My 990 had initial annoying issues with the firmware that Outlaw eventually ironed out with firmware updates. That was a somewhat annoying and lengthy process, but they were mostly nuisance-level bugs. My 755 never had any problems and was an absolute brute. It sounded great.

Time marches on. Hopefully, the next amp I get will be an efficient PWM design. Brute power without the space heater and space concerns. It would be cool if Outlaw were to offer such a thing.

Best,

I had a channel on my 7125 fail after a year of use. I swapped to another channel until I had spare amp and then sent the 7125 home for repair. Got it back 6 days later and it is a workhorses in my system. By the way the spare I purchased was a 7500 on sale. I bought it even knowing the 7125 had an issue because I knew Outlaw would take care of it for five years.

I have a 7500 and I am happy to say the unit is flawless. I am planning to add a 7075 to this for surround backs. I prefer the look of the 7075 to the 2200. Although my pre/pro is an Onkyo AVR presently operating the surround backs, I will be switching to the 978 thus the need for another amp.

Anybody know if they will have a iPod dock or soemthing with this?

iPod connectivity will likely be included, but I would be surprised if they had an Outlaw branded dock available. With their partnership with Marantz it would be more likely they would resell one of their docks.

I have a Marantz SR6003 AVR. It has an MP3 input but no iPod connection built in. I looked at the docks they sell, but found something I liked better. The Cambridge Audio iD100. It is strictly a digital dock, meaning it sends the raw digital bitstream from the iPod(bypassing its internal DAC)directly to the digital input of the Marantz AVR via either Coax or optical. I have loaded a few CDs into iTunes and loaded those on my iPod Touch, and played it through the Cambridge dock. I could not detect any obvious difference between direct CD playback and the iPod connection.
Streaming Pandora via WI-FI this way sounds surprisingly good as well.

Ok, so there are docks that you can use to connect to any receiver or Pre/Pro? I thought most or all were specific to that company with their own special conenctors. (i.e Yamaha, Denon, Marantz etc)

DYNEX makes a really cheap dock that fits all of the older iPods. You can get them on ebay or Amazon for like $20. They even come with a remote which controls the iPod when in the dock. I have several and like how they function. They have an analog output jack to RCA connector which goes into almost all analog inputs. The only drawback is that the signal from the iPod is less and you have to turn the volume up more. You can also use the 3.5 mm jack-RCA cable to feed a processor directly from the earphone output to a tape input connection.

As XenonMan stated^^^ Just a simple RCA hookup for most docks. A dedicated iPod connector is another option like my cheapo Pioneer receiver has. I can plug my iPod directly to the supplied cable which plugs into a socket on the front of the receiver. I can use the remote included with the Pioneer to control the iPod, but is limited in functionality.

Gosh, I hope not! I am not an Apple fan-boy (not that you are) and I like competition, so will buy another brand of whatever product Apple sells. Apple Marketing, as well as Bose, is genius. I just don't like their near-monopoly.
I know, I'm in the tiny minority.

It doesn't need an I-Pod dock. Most people listen to their I-Pods outdoors and in the gym where they can concentrate on their music and not the workout. I don't think Outlaw is going for Joe Sixpack.

Those $20 docks are analog out - they use the horrible DAC from the iPod. The digital out docks allow processing by the DAC in your pre-pro or by an outboard DAC. Wadia was the first to market such a dock. The current models are the 170i and the 171i. They aren't cheap. Believe it or not, you can get CD like sound out of an iPod or iPhone using these digital out devices. http://www.wadia.com/products/transports/

Yeah OK, you can get CD quality out from an iPod through the digital out from the dock but to do so you need to use a lossless codec like FLAC, ALAC, etc. Any lossless codec will give you about 50% compression. Just how much lossless music can you fit onto a little 32GB or 64GB after all the apps most people install on their iPod or iPhone. Most audiophiles even with a relatively small music collection would only be able to fit a small percentage of their collection. Most audiophiles that are looking into non-optical media players are considering using either HTPCs, SANs, or media players with large built-in hard drives and not storage deficient portable devices one's going to end up loosing some night at the bar.

The convenience of a dock is what makes them attractive. I would not spend big $$$ on a dock. It charges my iPods an lets me access the music at the same time.

Interesting, do you find the lack of sound quality using a cheap dock bothersome? I would guess that most folks here who spend a decent amount of money on a system would want the best possible music quality? -Bob

I want access to the 12000 songs I have on my iPod. I don't like wearing headphones all the time and I do think I get pretty good playback quality. I am somewhat older and my ears are not what they used to be but.... I think my iPod going through my systems sounds just fine. I don't find the sound quality to be bad. I am also pretty sure that CDs sound better than Vinyl and that the limits of human hearing ends around 25 khz no matter what a lot of people want to spend money on. I adhere to the old axiom that the louder something is the better it sounds to most people. Therefore you just have to crank it up loud enough to make it sound good.

I am with you XenonMan. My hearing is not what it use to be back in the days of Rock and Roll at The Electric Factory here in Philadelphia. I recently purchased (1year) a chordette dac and use the bypass mode on my 990 and using my iPhone (bluetooth) I think my music sounds very good if not fantastic.
Granted put all of your sound meters, graphs and what have you the sonics reading b/c I am using bluetooth will not get as good a reading as from another from of playback but considering that I am streaming music I feel it sounds damn good.
I still at times use my Oppo 93 to listen to SACD's and also two channel.
Sometimes I have compared sound quality using my Oppo and streaming my iPhone using the same recording and I can be pretty critical but I did not notice that much difference.
Of course a younger pair of ears might notice even the slightest flaw in my music but I do not think to the point of dislike.

I currently stream FLAC audio to my AVR and occasionally use high bitrate MP3 (320kbit). Haven't found anyone who can tell the difference between either of those and the actual CD playing and the digital bitstream hitting the AVR over HDMI. I only keep the DVD/BluRay player around for those (rare) times when someone brings a movie or music that I don't already have on my media server. I could never go back to using coasters again.

For movies, I just rip everything into an MKV container and use H.264 at a high bitrate (I leave the audio track alone). At 1080p resolution on my 42" display, I can't see any visible difference between that and a BluRay title playing from the BluRay transport.

Best,

First thing

I agree with Xenonman and Rubbersoul in that my hearing ain't what she used to be. I think when I went to an AC DC concert 20 years ago my hearing went right there and then. I actually still hear fine BUT things are not 100 %. I cannot hear anything above 16khz.

Second thing

I love my bluray player but a server IS the way to go as Ritz just posted above. FLAC is every bit as good as CD. I have spoken to an experienced emplyoee at a hi-end audio store in my area and he said that Bluray is dead as far as a the future is concerned. He would NOT want to sell me one at a high price even though he carries a few high end models at over $1000. He says that media servers, like Kalaidescape which they sell, are the future. Although Kalaidescape is very expensive and out of the reach of many people (one being me), he says that there is where the industry is headed because that is what the masses want.

This is where Outlaw should be concentrating. They obviously are putting a lot of work in the 978 and their R&D should then be focused on an affordable server in the near or mid future.

I guess it is always driven by "what the masses want". I am 52, and work part time in the music industry so I am at at lot of music events such as SXSW and ACL Festival not to mention nearly 40 years of concert going. I'm not going to claim a golden ear, but I can and do detect a distinct difference in most compressed digital formats vs discs or "coasters" as they referred to by some. If the masses are more concerned with quantity over quality, as it is with so many aspects of our lives (American diet for instance) then it is a very sad day. I remember so fondly buying a new album and pouring over the liner notes and artwork as I listened to the music. My eyes are not good enough to do so with a CD, but at least I have something to hold in my hand. I am NOT thrilled about streaming entertainment data and will be the very last to adopt if forced to. I think of Pink Floyd's "Sheep" when I read stuff like this. Technology is not always going in the right direction folks. Gadgets and features are really nothing more than toys. The audio industry is stuck in this "me too" game trying to outdo or keep up with the other guy and make the "feature creatures" happy. That sucks for us and is a part of why our 978 is so delayed. Really, who need to control their equipment from a friggin' IPhone?

I imagine there will always be media on disc for die hard audiophiles just as vinyl has gained a rebirth for that same audience. At least I hope so.

BTW, please excuse the ranting. I should have had my coffee first.

AusTexRocker

Ranting totally excused. Just so everybody knows where I actually stand, I agree with AusTexRocker. I would love to see Bluray continue gloriously into the future AND improved down the road. Unfortunately streaming and downloading is where the industry is going and NOBODY who is part of the masses and just goes with the flow is a member of this forum. This is why we are all here. We care for the best and also for improvement on "the best."

I myself am not far behind from AusTexRocker in age. I am 47 and have a family and I STILL do not own an IPod. I am planning to get one soon for my car since it is IPod ready and I am too lazy in my middle age to keep hauling down the CD collection and loading the car system up with it.

What I believe, if not mistaken, Ritz was speaking about excellent recorded FLAC audio. Much of the material may not be available at such high quality recordings. I don't believe that a well recorded IPod song on high end systems like ours in the forum will sound quite as good as a well pressed CD. I don't think a well pressed CD is important in a car. For me my car's (2008 Acura TL with NAV) system sounds good but all said a car is a car is a car. It is not a nice home system and cannot be.

Yes...Who wants to control their system from a friggin' Iphone.
At least I had my coffee.

It's kinda pointless to play Don Quixote against the formats that the music industry insists on peddling. *shrug*

I'm also in my 40's and a former music industry exec with a lot of time in the studios (on the recording end). I used to think I could tell the difference between a CD and a 320kbit mp3. Then someone challenged me to an blind A/B session and guess what....I couldn't. As far as FLAC goes, you definitely can't tell any difference because it's the same (lossless) bitstream that you'd get from the source. I purchase all my music on CD/DVD/BluRay and then rip it. I don't buy compressed music of any type unless it's something I don't want to waste money buying a whole disc for...we've all got those one hit wonders we like, after all. After it's ripped, the original goes in a box and likely never gets seen again unless I decide I want to look at the vanishingly small liner notes. I do that for convenience and to prevent the original coasters from being scratched by the kids (or adults after a few too many). You can't beat the convenience. Scroll through your list of titles, search based on whatever criteria you want, set it up to randomly play, etc....all on your TV screen. If you have a party, nobody needs to go anywhere near your expensive gear and can flip through your content at a safe distance without so much as a peep from me on how to navigate around. It's THAT easy.

For $100 you can get a dock that outputs digital from an Ipod. For less than $200 you can put in a 240 GB hard drive. By doing that, I now have a 2/3rds full Ipod, all lossless, of 7000 songs, sending a digital signal into an external DAC.

Sounds atleast as good as the Oppo doing the same thing...

I hate Apple, but the Ipod is my one thing I deal with from them...

I am in your camp Ritz2 with one exception. I have ripped all of my CDs using Apple's lossless compression. I have found that all of my music (in lossless form) fits quite nicely on an 80GB ipod classic.

I've got two separate iTunes libraries -- one of which consists of about 26,000 songs ripped to MP3 (most in 128kbps), and the other of which consists of about 6,000 songs ripped to AIFF (lossless).

MacBook Pro houses both libraries, which are connected via Ethernet cable to my network.

I use my 2nd-gen AppleTV to access both libraries.

I also have a Peachtree Audio DAC*iT in the system.

I can tell a HUGE difference between the MP3 files and the AIFF files. For one, the sound stage on the MP3's fits between my speakers; the AIFF files play sounds outside the speakers. SQ on the AIFF files is as clear as the original CD's played on my Oppo 93.

There's only a slight difference between SQ on either library when played through the DAC*iT -- it enhances the bass somewhat. On the AIFF files, that results in a better, "fuller" SQ; on the MP3 files, it seems to make the sound more muddy. So when listening to the AIFF library, I'll feed it through the DAC*iT; on the very rare occasions I play the MP3 files, I ignore the DAC*iT entirely.

I also have about 500 high-resolution files downloaded from HDTracks.com. I access them through the Integra DHC-80.2. Those files have a better SQ than either the MP3 or the AIFF files.

As for CD's sounding better than vinyl ... not in my house, they don't. Sure, my vinyl has the occasional static pop and tick, and I don't have to worry about that at all with AIFF files. But the vinyl almost uniformly gives me an even larger sound stage AND better dynamics. The music is more engaging in every way I can think of.

And my ears as bad as anyone else's -- I'm 52, and I've been to see Aerosmith on every tour they've done since I was 15 years old.

I admit that I do copy my discs to an SDHC card at 192bps for listening to in the car. The card plugs right in to the head unit in dash. It does beat the hell out of hauling my precious discs around everywhere and sounds just fine for driving around. However, when sitting in my listening room that format is unacceptable. And like mentioned above, I worry about my discs being damaged too. Many are out of print, rare, and very expensive. A $200 plus disc does not come out during the party, I assure you. But then, at the party, who really cares about SQ? It's just filler noise for the background in most cases isn't it? In that scenario, the streaming library is perfect. I myself spent far more time in critical listening sessions than in party time where convenience would be preferable. Both camps have their merits but the fact the industry can dictate how I enjoy what is probably my most favorite passtime is disturbing to me.

Interesting comments, if the one cannot tell the difference between Lossy(decent) and lossless playback, perhaps an expensive prepro vs. and inexpensive AVR would be difficult too? Or is the strong appetite for the 978 for other benefits besides perceived improvements in sound quality?

Bob

+2 to AusTexRocker and Beyond1000



Yes it is.

Strong appetite? I wouldn't be so sure. For every, "yeah, I'll wait til the cows come home for my 978" I think I've seen a corresponding "Got tired of waiting and bought something else" or "the 978 is missing feature X so I'll buy another product."

As a result, I don't see the 978 being popular at all. They are WAY too late to the party and are missing significant feature sets that are commonplace in the industry now. Sure, some diehard Outlaw fans will buy them, but these things aren't going to sell well. I wouldn't wish any bad luck on Outlaw, but that's what I see happening.

Best,

^^^^
I think for the pre/pro category it will sell very well. It all depends just how many people are waiting for a pre/pro with Audyssey XT32 and balanced outputs. There just aren't many out there with these two features.

I've scratched more than a few CDs in my car, a handful of very prized ones too, up until about 2003 when I noticed that some would miss-track and stutter when playing back on my home hi-fi gear. I have an Alpine CD player in the car but when the suspension of a car CD player is weakened after countless hits on the road caused by potholes and cracks (we hold the distinction of having the roads with the most of potholes up here ), well then your CDs take hits from the reading lens and you can end up with some really nasty scratches and whitish scrapes. I've had to buy an optical disc resurfacing machine to treat some CDs.

Although I intend to hold on to the actual CD discs, I want to put everything I can on a NAS compressed with FLAC. As for my SACDs, unless I can some day rip them and put them on a NAS too, I'll have to keep on using my Oppo BDP-83.

What's worse about the music industry is that they're trying to push on the market an inferior MP3 format that cost them much less to distribute through downloads and you don't even have a physical media. You can often buy up an actual CD these days for less than the cost of the downloads. If you loose your portable player or the hard drive on your HTPC or NAS crashes and you don't have valid backups, well then you're screwed. The music industry doesn't care, they just figure you'll back back what you lost, very disturbing indeed.

Ritz, sometimes it's better late than never my friend, unless a competitor comes out with a similar product and pulls the rug from under your feet, so there is a limit ultimately. AV processors are a fairly small market any way you look at it, partly because most of them are fairly expensive; separates are simply a more expensive proposition. Maybe this explains why Marantz haven't come out with an AV8005(6), as rumored, to replace the discontinued AV8003. Outlaw may indeed sell them in relatively small numbers considering that they've also lost sales from the last couple of years to people who got tired of waiting and bought another brand.

I myself don't own any Outlaw gear but I'm looking for an affordable processor with a good digital room correction system to help me tame the terrible acoustics of my square listening room. Audyssey's MultEQ XT32 has been awarded the "Accessory of the Year" award for 2011 by Stereophile. But above all, the criterion I place the highest emphasis on is the SQ. In regards to some of the missing features, as many have mentioned, most of them can be added by third party boxes you can connect to the 978. Time will tell how this thing pans out.

Dammit, I am not buying another car from Outlaw until they add the parallel parking feature!

But you're the same guy that said "if the Emotiva guys can pull this off the XMC will sell like hotcakes." You seem to have a lofty opinion of them over Outlaw despite Emo's awful UMC failure. I don't quite follow your logic there.

At any rate, only time can tell who will be successful, but it's a little early to be counting anyone out.

The XMC is a LOT more attractive from a features perspective. And I do believe I have mentioned the previous track record of Emotiva in numerous posts...but if you feel the need to flog that dead horse... Neither company is particularly credible based on hitting release dates for their theater processors so it will be a horse race to see which one gets the unit out the door and then we'll see who (if either one) has managed to release a bug free (or minimally buggy) product.

So if that makes my opinion of Emotiva "lofty" then so be it. I have yet to buy anything from them. On paper, there is really no comparison between the two products though.

Best,

Hey Ritz,

Do you have an idea who is designing their processor. I assume that they use the same pool of resources of design firms Outlaw uses. I spoke to one of their folks at Apoxna in Atlanta this past fall and got a political answer from him. I believe their products are made in China, but don't know that much about their design process.

The XMC is not more attractive whatsoever. I suppose it's all in the eye of the beholder, so maybe for you it is, but a blanket statement like that is only opinion, after all. When I look at the 978's Audyssey version, the Sabre DACs, the video processing(all of which the XMC doesn't have), it is certainly attractive. On paper, I give the Outlaw the nod. You, who have never even bought an Emotiva product, seem quite taken with them, and that is your right, but to come on here and say the XMC wins hands down is a big rush to judgement. I'll wait to see how each product does in customer's homes.

Agreed, once the products ship and get evaluated by real users, we can then draw conclusions. At best we can say that there are features of each that are attractive to various users. I for one would like to know the specific chip sets that are included in each (as an example a Sabre DAC is as descriptive as saying a car is a Ford because there are several Sabre DACs).

So you're in agreement with me there. Great.

Best,

Hey guys

Only fan-based users like us who take each unit to their theatres can come up with a true evaluation. What comes out on paper may not end up being the product we all hoped or expected. Performance is the key and zero to very minimal bugginess would be the final verdict of these units. Price is also important at the end. We need to see both out and operational before any of us can make a real decision.

My potential choice?

1. 978
2. XMC
3. Marantz 7005....this MAY win out at the end.

I would place the order:

• 978
• Marantz 7005/6006

The Marantz options may move up the list since my 10+ year old Denon is about to die. By the time the 978 gets released, its going to end up being nearly 4 years from the announcement of the 997. But given Emotiva's history, I would rather have my 10 year old Denon limping along in my system than buy one of their products.

My main issue here is that I just don't trust Emotiva. It would have to be proven bug free and BETTER than the 978 for me to chose it over the Outlaw. Like I said....PROVEN and proven to the Outlaws in this forum.

Boys, what I see here are a bunch of guys wanting to see the 978 released and bought by customers who will then report on performance and any "bugs". After the evaluations are in and performance is good and bugs are nonexistant or minimal, then this bunch will order 978'. The problem with this is that the 'customers' are US. There's no one out there in mass consumer land who will buy a 978 - they don't know that Outlaw Audio exists. It is US who will have to buy and experience the 978's performance and report back here. If you are too leery to buy and want to sit and wait while others test the 978 for you, I think that's a flawed process. Be a bit braver.

The best way to know the outcome of the 978's performance is the results of Outlaw's testing and beta testing. If reports are good then several of us will buy. I will buy when my budget allows me. I won't wait for 30 people here to buy and then wait again until all report. I do trust Outlaw in bringing out a good product. The bugs would only need to be minimal and of no real serious consequence to the home theatre experience and they just need to be "fixable". I am sure many of us will indeed buy. For myself I just need to see and "affordable" price on the unit and I am in.

It's not about being brave. It's about being smart. As a customer, I don't want to pay for the "privilege" of debugging a consumer electronics product. I don't have the time or the energy. That goes for both Outlaw and Emotiva.

Best,

Hank, you've forgotten about us Canadian boys north of the 45th parallel eh! BTW, North America also includes Mexico and if you check on the Outlaw's shopping cart, they ship to Mexico too.

As for reviews, I'm also interested in what the professional reviewers have to say and not only on the opinions of the buyers. I think that websites such as Audioholics and Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity will probably come out with reviews in a fairly timely manner, specially if the Outlaws send them early evaluation units. When buying gear, I like to take into consideration objective test measurements, not only subjective impressions and these two websites performs test measurements. I also wouldn't be surprised if Kalman Rubinson from Stereophile were to some day review the 978 or the XMC-1 it in his Music in the Round column. Kalman has a strong interest for reviewing more affordably priced multi-channel AV processors and receivers that include digital room correction; he's also very active on the AV Science Forum | AMPs, Receivers, and Processors Threads.

Hank, you've forgotten about us Canadian boys north of the 45th parallel eh! BTW, North America also includes Mexico and if you check on the Outlaw's shopping cart, they ship to Mexico too.


Much repect to our neighbors both north and south. In fact if the weather does not change in Texas, I would be proud to become a Canadian. If I am not mistaken, Hank meant the customers are US as in we the people on this forum and not USA.

I've found Kal's reviews to be honest and informative. It would be good to read what he thinks if he reviews the 978.

A wise thought and approach although a lot of outlaws that have been waiting for way too long may not be able to contend themselves and pull the trigger early. Well, there's always the 30 day money back guarantee...

Doggone it, I re-read Hank's message and you're correct AusTexRocker. Thanks for pointing that out to me.
Apologies for my misunderstanding of your post Hank.

Take 2 Hank .
Once the 978 ships and some folks here buy the unit, we don't only have to report back here or merely rely on the resources available on this Outlaw forum. At that point, we should also open up an "Outlaw Audio 978 AV Processor Official Thread" on the AV Science Forum | AMPs, Receivers, and Processors Threads. This will serve two purposes. First, it will help to make this Outlaw 978 processor better known to many more folks who don't know much about, it if anything at all. And second, it will bring in more expertize from a lot of experienced folks over at the AV Science forums, even if those people haven't acquired the unit or are waiting to see how things turn out, they can nonetheless make valuable contributions in terms of troubleshooting the unit by making test scenario suggestions.

I hope that Outlaw is also preparing to send out evaluation units to professional reviewers as I've mentioned in my previous post (Audioholics, Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity, Kalman at Stereophile, etc.). If the 978 turns out as good as Outlaw claims, those professional reviews will help tremendously to build up the 978's notoriety. Are you reading this Outlaw! It's time to walk the talk.

On the professional reviews, I'd like to agree with you, but I'm not so sure. It was over a year before the UMC by Emotiva was "professionally" reviewed, by Audioholics. In my opinion, they gave a rose colored glasses review since the thing was still pretty buggy at that point, and bugging customers to no end in some cases.

For myself, I'm looking for stable operation and better-than-avr SQ, with an excellent analog stage. But I won't be in a position to buy for about a year, so things will most likely be bug free by then.

I admit to not being totally familiar with Outlaw's pre-pro history. Have their models been still buggy after 1 1/2 years as Emotiva's latest was? We seem to be lumping the two companies together as if their track record is exactly the same. Is it? I know I see a far lower percentage of threads complaining about defects here than at Emotiva's forum.

As I said in my post, I'm interested in the pro reviews for the test measurements. All reviews have to be looked at with a certain level of criticism and sometimes downright skepticism as many pro reviewers often have conflicts of interest by the mere fact that the producers advertize on their websites and/or publications. The areas where professional reviews often fail is in the stability and reliability of the reviewed product. Because of review time constraints and the infeasibility of properly testing all the possible permutations in using a complex product, a reviewer cannot realistically find out about all the little bugs and stability issues unless they're really major and obvious, which in most cases they'll report back. That's when one has to resort to reading the forums to see what the buyers have to report on their experiences using the product.



Same here although I'd like to get much higher than AVR SQ. I hope the 978 can be better than an Integra DHC-80.3 in terms of SQ, which I believe is feasible considering that the 978 will have a far less complex design and feature set. I'm hoping that it could turn out to be the "Oppo BDP-95" of the AV processor market. A guy can dream, can't he? OK, so many I'm dreaming in Technicolor.



I can't speak to those issues as I have no personal experience with either Outlaw or Emotiva products and I haven't been following their reliability history. From my observations and detached perspective, I don't think that most folks around here are lumping the two companies together with respect to product stability.

If your dream is for Oppo BDP-95 sound and picture processing quality, then, unfortunately, I believe you are going to be disappointed. From everything I have seen (and it would be great to be wrong), the BDP-95 has better Sabre DACs and a better video processing chipset than the 978 will have. If you look at it. The price difference between the 93 and 95 is 1/3 the total expected cost of the 978.

I believe that the 978 will be a formidable unit in sound and picture quality but it will not be an Oppo 95 as 73Bruin said above. The Oppo BD-95 was reviewed and was found to have Sabre chipsets on par with units costing thousands more. It is very stable and has virtually no distortion. That unit alone costs 1k. This should not detract from the 978 as a processor.

Professional reviewers need time with the units to test out all bugs or whatnot and they seldom get the unit in their possession long enough to make a complete and tru-telling analysis. You will need several reviewers and would be owners like us to to a longer term analysis and report.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough about my Technicolor dream although I did mention in terms of sound quality (SQ). The Oppo BDP-95 obviously has a better video processor in the Marvell Qdeo over the 978's Anchor Bay processor (similar to the Oppo BDP-83). That aspect doesn't bother me as I have an Oppo BDP-83 and I'll eventually upgrade to a BDP-93 or higher when the need arises and I intend on bypassing the 978's video processing in favor of the Oppo's. When you're playing Blu-ray material, video processing becomes much less of a factor as it's a format that essentially plays the same on all BD players, unlike DVD with all its video processing requirements (de-interlacing, DNR, upconverting to 1080P, etc.).

As for the DACs, Outlaw hasn't explicitly mentioned which model number from the ESS Sabre DAC family they're using. I hope it's the ES9018 from ESS' Reference line (the Oppo BDP-95 uses two of those - one for stereo and a second for multi-channel), otherwise as you said, I'll be disappointed.



Good point. One other thing one must consider is that the Oppos have a relatively high cost part, which is the Mediatek universal optical disc transport that you won't have in the 978. The BDP-95 also uses a high quality linear power supply with a nice toroid transformer made by Rotel, those are quite a bit more expensive than a switching power supply like the one that the 978 uses. I wish Outlaw had specified a liner power supply, at least for the analog audio section. Of course the 978 has 7 more balanced outputs along with a multitude more of connectors and a bigger case.

Actually both of the Oppo's have the same Marvell Qdeo video processor which I have read was picked because it does a better job of processing streamed video. I am also not clear that the Outlaw is using the same Anchor Bay processor (of which there are/were several) as the 83. As you pointed out the issue so much isn't Blu-Ray as it is all of the other video sources (e.g. cable, satellite, streaming) where it appears that the Outlaw will be relatively lacking.



My desire was always to have the best DACs and video processing possible in the prepro so that corners could be cut elsewhere.

My desire also. I wish we could have somehow replace the BD-95 in the 978 but that doesn't look like it is meant to be. I'm thinking that such a move would drive the price up more than Outlaw would want. Using a toroid would also drive the price up a bit. Outlaw needs to come out with an affordable unit so some compromises will have to be met.

S.Sharkey wrote:
My experience with my early 950 was ZERO bugs and no problems until last year.

jam: yes, WE are North America - I have friends in Canada and Mexico - some day WE will take back our manufacturing (but that's another topic

I find myself on the opposite side of this view. I would prefer my heavy processing done at the source, in this case the OPPO-95 (which seems like it will do a better job in all accounts). This pretty much takes the burden away from the 978 and allows it to focus on SQ and switching duties and future proofs it from future changes in DAC and video chip technology. There is certainly no point in having high end chips in every component. You could go the route of a cheap source feeding the 978 but I belive the theory of "junk in-junk out" might apply here and why feed the 978 junk? Any upgrades to an OPPO-95 type product would likely still be less expensive and another pre-pro.

I don't understand your desire to pair a BDP-95 with an Outlaw pre-pro, other than as a cheaper alternative to something like a Parasound P-7. With a device "designed from the ground up with components optimized for enhanced analog audio performance" the Outlaw's room correction and other audio and video processing capabilities are essentially moot (except for cable or satellite TV).

I agree with AusTexRocker's theory - I don't want a receiver or a pre/pro to have highest end video processing. Put those chips in the OPPO or other brand player and connect it directly to the display (TV or projector). Best video and best audio chipsets in a receiver or pre/pro serve to make them most expensive. In my opinion, the main function of the pre/pro in the case of the 978 is:
#1: audio SQ - put the best audio chipset in the 978
#2: signal management - switching amongst various front end components with no signal degradation
#2: room correction (if that's high on your list)

If you have a DVD player that contains the very best video AND audio chipsets, then you're buying a pre/pro for preamping signals from components other than your OPPO, switching between components and what else? - room correction? Seems expensive for just those functions.

YMMV

This discussion highlights why the 990 is still an awesome device. Used with a great machine like the Oppo makes it very relevant in todays market. Makes you wonder why the zoutlaws just didn't update it sooner instead of a complete redesign.

You are right that for me, the matching to a 978 is not ideal. My preference would be a device more like the Parasound P7. I am holding on to perhaps a futile wish that one of those new items Scott teased us with is something more in line with a traditional multi-channel preamp doing just the functions that Hank and I describe. It would likely be the last preamp I would ever need and as tech changes, a new source device will handle that. However, as you pointed out, the 978 may cost less than the P7 and certainly does so much more. Even if I would never use many of those functions, that keeps my interest alive for now.

Although I never owned a 990, XenonMan nailed it. With just a few updated that would be a killer.

Throw me in on the source doing the best decoding and the preamp performing signal control and room correction. If you should get an Oppo BD-95 it would be quite difficult to process or decode better sound. One question is that what is the future of Bluray in order to spend $1000 on a player.

It would be interesting to see a survey of audio/video enthusiasts regarding currently available feature sets in the industry. I think many of the R&D and marketing boys push so much fluff that we begin to think we really need such features. Big Brother in action. This is always at the expense of ease of use, stability, and of course cost.

Good point and my justification in the case of BDP-95 is that it also decodes DVD, HDCD, SACD, DVD-A, and Redbook CD as well as flash media. That's hard to beat for those who have a large collection.

AusTexRocker wrote: I work with Marketing and Lab personnel daily in product development and it is Marketing, not the lab folks, who always give a full feature list to the Lab for product incorporation. Only when a new product faces severe margin crunch will Marketing seriously consider feature exclusion. How many of us really need a Composite Video input nowadays?

I wouldn't think very many. However the design I just released was required to have Composite Video input and output to support legacy systems. It's getting harder to find silicon suppliers though so I don't expect it to be around too much longer.

Heck how many of us require component video or S-Video? Those options will be going in no time. Add to that services like Spotify, Dina, ISF, RIHD, HD Radio, Pandora, Last FM, Rhapsody, Slacker, Napster, Sirius FM, Mediafly.

Onkyo has W.R.A.T which shapes the power of the amp. Their $330 receiver has it as well as their $3200 AVR also has it. So is the entry level AVR almost as good as their flagship?

I have an Onkyo 906 and I beefed up the W.R.A.T. by adding an Outlaw 7500 to it. Now it is really, really Wide Range Amplifier Technology.

Way too much marketing to sell this stuff AND drive the costs up.

Not all of us are starting out from scratch and instead a lot of money is tied up in older formats.

I require S-Video. I will not throw my DVD player into the trash just to upgrade to a new pre-processor. I also will not purchase a blue-ray player just to upgrade to a new pre-processor, since I watch newer movies by streaming and do not need a blue-ray player just to get HDMI output.

While we are on the subject of older technologies, I own about 50 VHS movie tapes, which I periodically watch. I hope no one expects me to throw these tapes and my VHS player into the trash (and buy these movies all over again on a disc)just to upgrade to a new processor.

So if I cannot watch these movies anymore using existing formats, then I will not upgrade to a new processor.

I for one have a lot of legacy equipment but.....I have plenty of ways to connect via my other equipment. Including S-video and other legacy connections on the 978 is a way to fill up the space especially if they can be upscaled.

Wow. I haven't used composite video since I needed it to see the OSD on my 990 when I initially set it up and haven't used S-video for anything in at least 6 or 7 years. HDMI makes things a LOT simpler. If I was in a niche market to sell to audiophile types and was cutting corners to fit important stuff in the budget, those are two connection options that I'd eliminate straight away.

Does anyone really think it costs a meaningful amount to support composite video or S-video (up-scaling aside)? I am guesing that the cost per unit of either of these and the related circuitry is probably less than $5.00. Personally, I still use S-video for my VHS player (the kids like the old Disney movies).

I suspect that the parts cost is negligible, but there are probably PITA issues on the software integration side.

VHS? What's that? Is that what people used before 8-track tapes?

In product design, every component costs money and real estate. Marketing wants every feature, but complains about the cumulative product B.O.M. cost.

I need composite for the Velodyne SMS-1, or I guess I could use the S-vid.

I didn't know that so many of you guys still use ye ol' VHS. My VCR is in ye ol' garbage heap. My kids just watch DVDs and now I buy movies in Bluray. For the kids I still buy DVDs cause they are cheap. I don't have any legacy equipment only because my stand doesn't fit more things. Heck my son has his PS3 in his room with his own little flat panel tv so his poor parents can enjoy the big plasma and the rest of the home theatre. Sonny boy doesn't need a 7500 powering up his games. Also my daughter can watch her kiddy movies on the big screen. I run HDMI on my Bluray and DVR. No game consoles, no VCR, no turntable, no cassette deck, no nothing else. Simply no room.

I guess Outlaw and others know their market better than I to include many hookups.

You really need to keep composite, too many legacy products out there not to include it. Many times I use composite just used for a temporary hook-up so it is a matter of convenience. I would drop S-vid and component.

-Bob

I would make a different set of choices, in that I'd keep component (my kids like to play the Wii, for which I have a component cable. Also, since switching between S-video and composite can be done with a 3 dollar adapter, I'd drop the composite and include S-video instead. That way older formats have at least the option of the best possible signal path, which is precluded if you only allow a composite connection for them.

Good point on the adapter, that would work fine for me. -Bob

Speaking on the title of this thread.......I wonder what Outlaw is doing now to help further the agonizing release of the 978?

Rest assurred they're working their butts off. I assume that they are communicating with beta testers by now, and working on whatever "bugs" have been detected. Conjecture on my part, but seems logical.

I am in the process of putting together a dedicated HT system, have the 7700 already and have ordered a eight speaker system (7.1) which should be delivered in the next week or so.
The 978 is what I would like to include but the time table for this piece does not look promising. I suppose I will have to start looking at alternative pre/pros.

Jeff

Let's see....Scott (who isn't an engineer) went to China in early January to assess the situation. It's now May and there hasn't been any significant update on timing of a release. So I'd say that you're not alone in your quest for an alternative.

zzzzzzzz....

I was in your situation exactly a year ago -- I had ordered the 7700 and new speakers, and was waiting for the 978. I heard from a good friend who runs another audio company (and is in regular touch with Peter T.) that the 978 wasn't likely to come out any time in the next 3-6 months (yes, we were all still dreaming of a mid-2011 release for the 978 back then), so I did my research and settled on the Integra DHC-80.2.

But I've still got my fingers crossed, and when the 978 is released, I'll likely take advantage of the 30-day return policy to give it an audition in my system and see if it enhances my SQ.

No sense in waiting and letting the warranty on your new equipment expire. Get the Marantz or the Integra and wait for the reviews on the 978. Might as well enjoy your stuff now. Outlaw is not going to update us anytime soon. By the way, where is Gonk? If he is in the bata test mode with the 978 and can't participate in the forum then he must really be busy.

I actually think Gonk has checked out. I believe he has moved on from Outlaw. His last post sounded like someone who was completely disinterested in the 978 or anything "Outlaw". That was my "impression". I certainly don't speak for him, but it certainly sounded like he wasn't even reading the posts on here anymore. I truly believe he is not beta testing, though until his last post, I thought that must be where he was.

I think you chose the best possible alternative in the Integra unit although with a significantly heftier price tag compared to what we're expecting from the 978. When the time comes, I hope you'll report back on SQ comparisons between the two units. Folks around here will be most grateful for your opinions.

According to this BBS, this seems to be Gonk's last post, dated from March 21st:



As we can see, he reports his impressions on where things stand and shows understanding for the situation Outlaw is in. I doesn't look to me as if he's disinterested. Although he points out that it's hard to be excited with the all the work that remains, he shows optimism that Outlaw seems to be on their way to complete the project.

I remember when Gonk was beta testing the Oppo BDP-83 and participating on the AV Science Forum's thread for the BDP-83. He was reporting back fairly regularly what he was allowed to under his NDA. Maybe he's just too busy now with his work, the family, the 978 beta testing , etc. The Oppo beta testing program was a much more open process than the 978's beta program appears to be. God, how often I've wished that Oppo would have produced a processor along the lines of the 978, they basically already have about half the design needed under their belt.

I agree, I posted pretty much the same thing in the feature suggestions thread in March of 2010 (about the BDP-83SE). Since you mentioned Gonk, it was his thought that the two were too different.

When the 978 does come out we will see how much the Great Gonk will post on the forum. If we see a few posts and then slowly crickets after that then he will have moved on. Hope he stays on and posts regularly...he knows a lot and gives great information.

I was a beta tester for the 83SE and the 95 too. And believe me, I mentioned this to them every chance I got. They just kept saying that AVR's/SSP's were markets they didn't want to be in. I keep hoping their view changes though, because I think the days of physical media are numbered. Or at least diminishing. Ever decreasing total sales from here on out, except for maybe lp.

Let's see, to turn an Oppo BDP-95 into an A-V Processor, they would have to:

1. ditch the Mediatek transport
2. add a System-on-Chip (SoC) or use the DSPs (with required software) to handle all the media format decoding you lost by removing the Mediatek transport, which is pretty much every format it decodes
3. add an HDMI input switching SoC with additional HDMI connectors
4. add a SoC to switch the legacy video inputs (composite, S-Video, component) and the associated connectors
5. add some S/PDIF inputs (coaxial, optical and maybe one AES/EBU(XLR))
6. add the various analog stereo and multichannel audio inputs with required ADC, the switching circuitry, the RCA connectors and ideally a pair of balanced XLR inputs
7. add a phono input stage (MC/MM)
8. add the remaining analog multichannel balanced (XLR) and unbalanced RCA outputs
9. add a pair of TI Aureus DSPs to handle audio decoding and some flavor of digital room correction (Audyssey MultEQ is probably the fastest solution to implement)
10. add the microphone input circuitry for the digital room correction and provide a microphone
11. they may need to add a more powerful micro-controller or an ARM processor running some OS, either proprietary, embedded Linux or QNX to integrate and control all the different systems
12. increase the system RAM and perhaps the flash memory
13. extend or redesign the system bus to accommodate the new digital systems
14. write the custom software to control the various systems
15. replace the front display with a lager more flexible one
16. add a radio tuner
17. add the radio antenna circuitry, connectors and supply an antenna
18. increase the capacity of the power supply
19. design a larger case
20. for whatever else I forgot

OK, so maybe they don't quite have half of the design done as I previously over-enthusiastically indicated but I believe that they have the potential to accomplish it.

Even if the sales of physical media are diminishing and/or they'll be replaced by streaming services sometime in the future, you're still going to need some form of preamp-processor or hub to at least control the audio decoding and multichannel features and outputs. Otherwise, the whole multichannel market will collapse. I don't believe everybody wants to go around listening to music only on headphones.

Another thought, most folks are greatly under-utilizing their 1080P displays and not even watching 1080P but 720P while using most streaming services. Most homes still don't have the adequate network bandwidth to do 1080P with the audio codec and have some leftover bandwidth for surfing the net at the same time. Now imagine having 3 or 4 members of a family watching 1080P or even 720P simultaneously on their personal displays. And when 4K becomes available, then, you'll need at least four times more bandwidth. I think that the market and some consumers are still going to want physical media for a little longer than expected, at least I hope.

No doubt that we will want the discs for most movies. But streaming is gonna take over once the bandwidth is sufficiently robust. Current suppliers can't do the job adequately for most of us and it will take a huge infrastructure leap to get there.

I haven't played a disc (movie) in over 6 years and currently don't have any disc-based device even connected in my home theater. I will never buy another disc-based product and the ones that are kicking around here will never find themselves connected to a home theater again.

As for music discs, that's now been over 10 years since I last played music from one. A music CD as a primary playback medium is about as out-dated as the 8-track tape as far as I'm concerned. When I buy a CD today, it goes into an a small inbox pile, then it gets ripped and then put into storage as a backup/archive.

Sad, so sad....

Indeed XenonMan... so sad. For too many folks, it's become about quantity over quality. Kind of like in the food industry. Supersize us with large portions and quantities of sugar coated and fat laden foods instead of serving a smaller but tastier, better prepared and healthier meals.

Then you must be watching compressed streamed 720P content over the Internet and not reaping the full potential of your 1080P display, if that's what you have. If you don't have a 1080P display, then you obviously don't have much too loose but if you do, you should try a Blu-ray sometime. Anyone with normal vision can clearly tell the difference provided you sit at the appropriate distance from your TV.

Then why are you following the release of the 978 and what are you looking at getting out of it?

I heard that folks were wondering where I went, so I thought I'd check back in.

I have not been checking the forum lately - in fact, I haven't been checking any forums lately. I can't even remember the last time I logged in at AVS. My responsibilities at work have increased, and we've had a significant backlog of projects that I've had to help manage and/or design. At this point, I don't see the work load easing up for at least a few months, and between that workload and obligations at home I just don't have much time to be active in my old haunts. I do hope to return here once I've reached a better balance of work, family, and play. In the meanwhile, I'm still really interested in hearing the Model 978 (especially after my experience with Sabre DACs in the BDP-83SE and BDP-95), and I still try to find time to unwind and enjoy my Outlaw speakers and amps. It just so happens that it's easier to be patient when I don't have time to wonder how its going...

Before I disappear again...

This is something that I've talked about with OPPO a lot. Having tested both products, I agree with them that there are a lot of differences. They've got a strong experience base for the hardware and software requirements of playing discs, and a growing experience base for playing data files/streams, but the design of interface, switching, bass management, room correction, surround processing selection, and other things (jam's list is a good one) are very different. They have never worked with the sort of audio DSP systems-on-chip that a surround processor uses, and their experience with disc player SOC wouldn't help much. It's a lot different, and it would be a major R&D investment to get into a market that is even more cut-throat than the high-end player market (albeit in a very different way).


In contrast, I've looked at options for migrating from physical disc to hard drive storage repeatedly over the years, and never felt that the labor and hardware cost involved (hours spent transferring hundreds of disc to the computer, hard drive storage costs, costs to include redundancy for the inevitable drive failures, and media appliance costs to gain access to the material from at least three or four locations throughout the house) was worth it to me. While plenty of good options for ripping CD and DVD exist, I'm still content to pull a disc off the shelf and put it in the player - and with a reasonably good player, the results will be as good as or better than the media-less alternative. (My BDP-83SE, RR2150, and Outlaw Bookshelves will handle any disc I have in the house and sound great doing it, while getting equal performance from that system without the 83SE would cost a great deal.) Meanwhile, ripping BD is also feasible, but with the same trade-offs and up-front costs for redundant storage. I'm sure the day will come when my optical media is as outdated as 8-track, but for me that day is still a long way off.

Glad to hear my impression was wrong. It would've been a sad day for the saloon if you'd left for good.

Also from me. Stick around Gonk and say hi once in a blue moon.

Good to hear from you, Gonk.

That's also my reply to twistybox's post above. I don't mind taking a CD or DVD out of my media shelves and sliding it into a player. And, if a HTPC or NAS provides me with same quality audio as the likes of an OPPO 95 and Outlaw 978, etc, it is still way too many hours of disc ripping that I will take out of my life. I do see the appeal of convenience though, so as alway, "To each his own". The music and the movie experience is what it's all about.

While I would agree that it is still necessary to buy physical media to acquire audio/video content, it has ceased to be the most convenient way to play it back...at least for me. Audio CDs get immediately ripped to FLAC (lossless) and video content gets immediately ripped to high bitrate 1080p H.264 and unmolested DTS or Dolby digital audio tracks. I can play all of that content with a simple $99 Roku hockey puck connected to my theater receiver. No muss...no fuss. You could also go the route of building your own small media server and connect that to your system with a simple HDMI connection (unless you're still using your Outlaw 990...heh). You could build a really state of the art system that will easily play any content you can throw at it for about $500-600 (including 128GB SSD for the OS and a 2TB data drive). Personally, I'm comfortable going the Roku route for now and I just keep all my media on network attached storage in a closet. I can't imagine going back to physical media again after experiencing the convenience of doing things this way with no loss in audio quality and no perceived loss in video quality.

Best,

The more users on the net or at the house, the slimmer the bandwidth available to use for watching movies. I hate being at the mercy of someone else for my own enjoyment. I always get the max enjoyment from my OPPO and a Bluray or DVD.

Again, it is the Quality of Experience camp vs The Convenience camp. I recall looking at big LP collections with great respect and admiration. The same holds true now to an impressive disc collection (although not quite the same). That is part off the experience. I look at a hard drive and think, "meh" could be 10 could be 10,000, who cares. Cold, sterile, and very unappealing. As Gonk pointed out the death of disc media is not as close as many here tend to predict. It will be around for those who know better.

I guess I did interpret properly what some thought was Gonk's last post from March 21st. Glad to see you're still around Gonk.

I've yet have to convert my CD collection to FLAC, which I've been meaning to do for a while. Since it takes a lot of time to do this operation, I intend to use a NAS that will replicate to a second NAS unit for fault tolerance purposes.

However, I also have some cherished DVD-Audio and SACD discs. The SACD layers from SACDs are extremely problematic to rip. You need a 1st or 2nd generation PS3 as those play SACD and there's some software on Linux that's supposed to get the job done but I think the DSD streams have to get converted to PCM if I'm not mistaken. DVD-Audio can be now be ripped with "DVD Audio Extractor". When it comes to multichannel playback of DVD-Audio and SACD stored of hard drives, I haven't seen too many elegant solutions and I'd rather not use a HTPC anywhere near my audio gear. So I may have to continue using my Oppo BDP-83 for that.

As for video, when you begin to have like over 100 Blu-ray titles, that takes an awful lot of disc space (about 5TB) for some movies you may get to watch every few other years. Then there are the DVD titles I won't re-buy on BD. For the video side, I personally don't thing that the time and hard disk expense is worth it.

I agree for the CDs Ritz. When it come to Blu-ray material though, having gotten used to the HD lossless audio codecs (Dolby TrueHD & DTS Master Audio), I just couldn't live with the legacy DTS and Dolby Digital soundtracks anymore. And then there's the cost associated with the space requirements for a large video collection (see my previous post).

The 4 year mark since the announcement of the 997 is 9/19/12. Released before or after?

I'm going with before.

Anyone else?

After but not much.

I'd like it next week honestly, but I expect it will be after the 4 year mark.

I'll say a bit before. Hey, we haven't established the buy-in for this pot

While I too have been "plagued" by some of the same 'work related issues' as gonk relates I did manage to get some of my HT gear 'upgraded' recently. I now have a shiny new DirecTV HR-34 HMC in the mix. I was delighted to have a "enthusiast" type installer and managed to chat with him about what he has seen in various subscribers set-ups. I think this is relevant for both the discussion of the "death of physical media" AND the "release date" issues that come up for HT gear.

First I have to confess that I am NOT an early adopter type enthusiast. When being "first on your block" to have new equipment means that you have an angry spouse that can't watch the shows they want, cranky off-spring that are not keen to see their pop running diagnostics on what they perceive as an "appliance" and frustrating calls to CSRs that are not as competent as the staff I deal with at work it really ruins the whole experience.

I can totally understand why LARGE numbers of households prefer to stick with relatively BASIC players for DVD and are slowly realizing that BluRay is perhaps a feasible "upgrade/replacement path" -- according to the installer the majority of homes STILL have DVD units and significant number have them RIGHT ALONGSIDE their BluRay players... As others have alluded to, the experience of having physical media is something that is EASY for people to understand. I also agree that a COLLECTION of discs holds appeal to a WIDE range of people and is unlikely to go away anytime soon UNLESS the various "tricks" that have proven compelling about music downloads through firms like Apple are applied by the makers of videographic content, something that largely seems impossible given the backward looking legalistic stance that permeates ...

The hardware front is really much less complicated. The DirecTV HMC was a long anticipated device. It offers features well beyond other DVRs and was developed by D* while they were simultaneously working with TiVo to offer a device that incorporated the menu, search and intelligent viewing habits capabilities that TiVo has patents on (and has won judgements against others for infringment). The delays in the D* TiVo far exceed anything that Outlaw has encountered and reflect a host of changes to the basic architecture of how D* choose to incorporate connectivity, on demand and whole-home features. There was / is also the backdrop of D* not really WANTING TiVo to succeed -- perhaps how the firm that made the Sherwood-Newcastle products had issues helping Outlaw deliver a super premium product...
The result of this chaos in the D* world is that, to the chagrin on many aficionados, the TiVo unit is NOT as capable as the HMC, and now (as reported by my installer) most of the HMCs are going to HT enthusiasts and the HD TiVos are mostly going to folks whose younger relatives are worried that any changes in the menus will result in too much "familial tech support"...

I really don't think there is much chance of Outlaw leaving too many enthusiasts behind by the gap in connected "features" that has grown between products from Integra or similar firms and the 978. I largely believe that so long as the 978 is delivered in a bug free state and has excellent SQ at a terrific value point there will be more than enough folks willing to come home and just listen to whatever sources they enjoy...

How about free posts for a year.

Mine are already free - oops, I wasn't supposed to reveal that.

WRT physical media. I haven't met a single person yet that hasn't fallen in love with the idea and implementation of local digital file/stream distribution once they've seen it in practice, usually here in my installation.

Friends with kids immediately see one of the enormous benefits - no more scratched discs. Wives love the fact that the space around the TV is much cleaner by losing disc-playing boxes. And that's speaking only of movies, because as far as music goes, I can't think of anyone whom I've seen play a CD in the past 5 years (or longer). I've been 100% server-streamed for over 6 years myself.

i beleave blu-ray is a dead format, a 2TB harddrive might cost $60 and can hold 40 blu-ray movies(dual layer), i would say it's a much better solution if you want to have a copy of the film. i beleave blu-ray quality streaming isn't that far away either. i guess blu-ray had a point 2006 when hard-drives where much more expensive per GB and internet much slower.

40 layers and 250GB per layer would result in 10TB of maximum storage per disk which would be enough for even 3840*2160 without lossy compression.

twistybox: I have - several - most people I know only stream on the go with their MP3's and iPod's. Otherwise, they don't do NAS or PC streaming at home.

anjora: Keep in mind that all hard drives will fail, so you'd have to back up your primary TB drive.

I'm loosing my patients. I'm considering the Marrantz 7005. Does anyone know approximately how much the new outlaw pre/pro is going to be if it ever actually comes out?

Agreed on the lifespan on bluray. 1080p streaming is already available on Kalaidescape. Now to get it on the cheap side of life.

Wait a bit until the fall or so and then pull the plug. The Marantz is no slouch and a good unit. I will go with that if the 978 is too expensive. I'm hoping the 978 is no more than $1599.00. If it goes to 2k then "SO LONG".

Supposed to be around $1500. Not counting the $200 Outlaw loyalty discount.

Blu Ray is dead? Really? Maybe I am behind the curve but I believe Cinavia will eliminate the abilty to rip a bluRay to a HD for playback. I do believe you are correct in your belief that BR streaming is not far away. But BR sales are increasing, the quality is superb, and it really is not much work to put one into a $50 or a $500 BR player.

In regards to the 4 year announcment date and will the new PrePro be ready by September; I doubt it will be released by then. We have been teased over and over about the release date, just to be let down over and over. Last summer we were told it would be released by last quarter of 2011....ho hum.

I believe Kaleidoscope costs thousands of dollars. Thats a lot of money for most people and could be spent on buying discs (or renting from redbox).

And are they in the process of being sued or being court ordered to stop? I recall reading something about them recently...

beyond 100 wrote:

Aye, there's the rub! Folks on here wanting and wishing for 4k, Kaliedescape, etc won't see such at affordable prices for a long time.

And, Kaleidescape continues to lose court case after court case: http://www.kaleidescape.com/news/pr/legal-update.php

BR is in a "dead man walking" state. The content is relatively expensive (compared to other available alternatives) and the market is clearly moving towards consumers who prefer to not deal with physical media.



Times change. There was a time where Outlaw was in front of the pack in terms of features and well out in front in terms of price/performance. That's no longer the case. There are a growing number of competitors in the (Emotiva is frequently mentioned) space that implement the same business model. Design the product using "commodity" components, do what you can to add value with support, and then outsource production to China/Timbuktu/wherever. After seeing the sad/comic Keystone Cops attempt to deliver a successor to the 990 over the past FOUR years, I don't think I would feel comfortable buying something as complex as a theater processor from Outlaw any longer. They clearly have very little control over the process and the management of both process itself and the piss poor management of customer expectations with respect to delivery dates has been a complete joke. That might sound harsh, but let's just call a spade a spade. I find myself wondering if this flailing around is a result of poor capitalization, poor management, or both. Outlaw has ceased to be relevant (at least for me) in the enthusiast home theater market. Sad, but time marches on.....

Best,

Ritz, when you state that Blu-ray is in a "dead man walking state", I think that this is your anecdotal impression of where the market presently stands. But I don't believe it's supported by any solid evidence.

Here is an interesting news article from Reuters that contradicts some of your claims: Hollywood hopes rise as Blu-ray, digital offset DVD decline.

The article indicates that in 2011:

"Sales of Blu-ray discs surged by 23 percent, the group said. That growth was spurred by strong Christmas sales of Blu-ray players".

"Blu-ray growth partially offset the continued decline in DVD sales. Packaged good sales, which include both formats, fell by 0.6 percent from a year earlier, to $2.1 billion."

"Home sales of film and tv shows reversed that decline, and increased by 0.5 percent if sales through electronic outlets such as Apple's iTunes service are included. Consumers purchased $165 million of those so-called electronic sell-through products."

"The industry's largest growth engine continues to be online subscriptions, such as those offered by Netflix, which grew five-fold in the quarter, to $548.6 million."

I hardly call an industry generating $2.1 billions a "dead man walking". From this industry association's data, it seems that sales of packaged goods (DVD & Blu-ray) still outnumber the electronic downloads and streaming by a factor of 4 to 1.

Here's another anecdotal observation of my own this time. When I go to stores selling BD, I see a lot of folks picking-up cheap BD titles for anywhere from $5 to $10 or even $15 for some fairly recent releases.

As bandwidth from the ISPs in the 50 to 100 Mbps range becomes AFFORDABLE, you'll begin to see the streaming really hurt hard media sales. We're not there yet though. And when we get there, don't kid yourself, the quality of the compressed streaming 1080P content will not be in the same league as the PQ that you get from Blu-ray. As I mentioned in a previous post, resolution is NOT the only criterion for picture quality. Contrast ratio, color saturation and color accuracy are considered to be more important aspects of PQ than resolution and that's precisely where the streaming content providers will chop off with an assortment of compression algorithms designed to reduce bandwidth requirements, all at the expense of PQ but allowing them to claim 1080P HD nirvana. Oh... the beauty of marketing!

And if 4K content comes along in a few years, it will most likely be back to square one with a new physical media as bandwidth will likely be insufficient or prohibitively expensive for a few years more to come.

Best regards

^^^

Good post.

Jam, I absolutely agree with you on the disc vs. bandwidth assessment but I have to ask why the sales of discs have gone down. It is because streaming is too convenient and cheap right now. Whether DVD or BD the facts are that the sales of BD didn't cover the sales lost by DVD even though the BD are more expensive. The figures you cited are sales not profits. What I hope this foretells is that the demand for BD decreases and the price comes down too. Most streaming providers are desparate to cut bandwidth usage down as much as they can. Verizon will cease to have an unlimited plan when an upgrade occurs and this only a year after going to the standard 2GB/month usage limit.

As far as I am concerned discs are the only way to go for PQ and sound. Everything else is subject to how many people are using the bandwidth at the same time. It is only a matter of time before we hit the wall and lose even more quality.

Because, IMO, most people don't give a crap about audio and video quality. They are just in it for the convenience:



Yup.

I think there is something else at work here too. When I watch something on TV, I watch it because I specifically want to watch it. But I think for a lot of people (most?), they just surf until they find something they can put up with. Here's another way to look at it: my Netflix queue has over 300 titles in it. But only 39 of those are streamable. So in my case, I simply cannot survive with streaming alone.

For my wife, that poor selection of streaming titles satisfies her, because she looks through the titles that Netflix has until she finds something she's OK with.

See the difference? I watch a movie because I specifically want to watch *that* movie. My wife will just search for *something*, *anything* to watch, just to occupy her time. I think most people are in the latter category. Audio/videophile vs the average Joe (or Mary).

I don't see how it could be any other way, because otherwise, how could the average person be satisfied with the selection that Netflix (and other streaming services) have? I.e., they don't care about the poor selection, video, and audio quality, they just care about price and convenience. Which IMO, is a shame.

Unfortunately many don't care about picture and audio quality that's true but I'm not too sure that bluray is going anywhere far. Kalaidescape is a precursor to what will eventually be successful later on. This isn't going to be an overnight thing. 4K may not make too much of a difference on home sets...maybe on projection. It's all about licensing and getting top quality audio/video streaming legally done by a big dog in the buisness which may not be as far off as we think. This industry is evolving fast and the new becomes old faster than you think.

The videophiles on here are not going to be satisfied with The Cloud. As Jam and XenonMan point out, physical media are the only source of best quality video. Yes, providers will compress every bit of content possible while still claiming 1080. The huge issue that is being touched on here, but not discussed, is the bandwidth available (internet download speed) here in the U.S. To increase that significantly, even to equal the best avialable in other parts of the world, much less to get to 4K, would be a monumental cost (new satellites and other infrastructure). No studio, or all studios together, or a provider or all providers together have enough money for that.
Hank's wild guess: one entity has enough money to attack this: Apple. Apple never leaks its next big play - could it be Apple iCloud Infrastructure? Maybe an additional investment by Amazon?

Now back to reality...

The question remaining is whether there are enough "videophiles" out there who care enough about the quality delta to support the BR ecosystem over the long haul. I don't see it. Most people simply don't care.

Perhaps this is best moved to its own thread and this thread can be reserved for the 978 delayed-release and missing feature follies.

Best,

XenonMan, the fall in sales was not very high, just 0.6% in a recessed economy. Unfortunately, I think it's a trend that's starting because of downloads and streaming. And you're right in pointing out that those numbers represent sales and not profits. The profit margins must also be lower in the optical media (DVD & BD) as the cost of manufacturing and specially distribution are higher than in the download and streaming market. So that's another factor why the industry wants to move in that direction. The prices in optical media will definitely decrease as has happened in the CD market in the last few years but it will become a great opportunity for the BD enthusiasts to get really good bargains. I don't know how some users could have lived with a 2GB/month usage limit and those ISPs really hit customers hard ($$$) when they exceed those limits. I had a hard time living with a 30GB/month limit 3 years ago and I have since moved to an ISP that offers an unlimited plan at a much cheaper rate than I use to pay with the larger provider.

I think Kevin and beyond 1000 are also right in that most consumers don't really care about PQ and specially SQ thereby choosing the convenience of streaming. That's a sad statement considering that folks are buying these large $1K+ HDTVs that a have much greater potential that's just being wasted. Mind you, a couple of my own friends that work in the IT industry, one as a network admin and the other as a senior programmer, still don't get it or just don't really care.

I think there's a second category of consumers, much lower in percentage than the majority, that seems to care but just isn't knowledgeable enough about the technology and that are easy prey for the sleazy marketing tactics that take advantage of this lack of understanding. Heck, those folks just bought themselves a fancy new $1500 to $2000 1080P HDTV and are downloading or streaming what those providers are touting as HD content that can be anything from 720P to highly compressed 1080P and there's seldom a mention of the sound format. But this is where some of the responsibility may lie squarely on our doorstep. We the knowledgeable enthusiasts must, when we have the opportunity, at least attempt to educate those that aren't informed.

The last category are a very small minority of enthusiast videophiles and audiophiles. Those are the nuts like ourselves that understand the technology and really care about the overall quality of the experience. We may perhaps be in the 2 to 3 percent, if not lower. And like Hank indicates, most of us are never going to be content with the cloud unless they can one day provide the same level of quality as can be had on physical media, at a reasonable and competitive cost of course.

Another reason I feel IT companies and service providers want to move all kinds of services on their clouds, is that it's a scheme to gain greater control of the consumer's needs, in doing so they gain greater and increasing control of their wallets. Before long, people won't know how to do relatively simple things if not through the cloud; welcome to the Matrix.

I agree that bandwidth cost are likely to remain higher in the US and Canada. Part of it may have to do with the large distances that have to be covered, except in large metropolitan areas where the higher population densities make it more affordable through economies of scale and increased competition. Yet I also feel from my experience in Canada that most ISPs in North America, typically the larger the guiltier, want take advantage and just gouge their customers to increase their profits. In some Asian countries like Singapore and Korea, they already have Gigabit Internet services.

Like Ritz says, we should move this discussion to another thread although I don't know if there's much that remains to be exchanged about this topic.

If BD continues to exist even if only as a niche format like lp (and Laserdisc was), I'm still a happy camper.

One problem is companies trying to tell us something is high def when it isn't. I had analog cable. And the picture for its day and age wasn't bad. Digital SD from Dish network (and digital SD video from Comcast) both are *worse* than analog cable SD quality. So then I get HD from Dish. I say, HD from Dish isn't much of a step above a good upscaled DVD. (DirecTV isn't any better either.) Nowhere close to HD from BD. I go to a satellite forum where people argue that point, but I know what I see. They are just fooling themselves.

So I will personally remain very skeptical when HD streaming is promoted by anyone.

I couldn't agree more Kevin as I've also previously posted.
HD whether from cable, satellite or streaming are to Blu-ray what MP3 is to CD.

bluray is also far from perfect, still disc size of 50GB(dual layer) is big for being a 5 year old technology, if there up to 10TB optical comes it will take a while for harddrives to catch up, the problem will be to keep the cost down. fibre optics has enough bandwidth for blu-ray quality streaming.

many people today today haven't heard a good mastered lossless album and therefore don't know what they are missing. i switched to flac using $20 logitech speakrs and the difference was so big i didn't beleave my ears until i did some blind testing and converted the song myself, after that i startet to listend to music for real, this was with poor mastered music.

still there will always be claims like "you can't hear difference between flac and good mp3". maby it's the same thing for movies. ofcourse you will enjoy it much more with quality setup, the bottleneck here is the source just as with mp3 files.

i actually think model 978 will be released within 3 mounts. it is good news for people who want a affordable unit with audyssey xt32 and good dacs.

Unfortunately I must stick my poor neck out and agree with this comment. I love Outlaw and this is a bitter pill to swallow but as Ritz just stated the facts are there. Outlaw has no longer gone into the forefront like it used to. It's either mismanagement and mis-marketing or just quietly riding off into the sunset. The power amps Outlaw sells are still tops with me but no new relevant products and slow on the draw. The 978 will not help Outlaw "catch up" unfortunately.

Yes...Sad but time does march on.

I totally agree on this Xenonman. I want to clarify my position on streaming and downloading. I love Bluray and I want physical media to stay AND improve. This is our only guarantee of picture and sound quality. I would like movies to become a bit more affordable but this is not the case.

It will be a while before we do see streaming that will be a true 1080p with lossless audio. The best senario is to just go for a newer Bluray disc in which movies are on physical media at 2k or 4k and new sets.

It is what the "I don't care" masses really want that drives the industry to more money. Only a big dog like Apple can bring downloading in mega-terabite harddrives to replace bluray but then again how much do the masses want this technology. They are still giddy about the next I-phone.

For what it's worth.
I read just a few posts concerning streaming video and audio and I thought that it would be all right to throw my opinion in the mix.
Sorry if this has been already voiced by other Outlaws.
I currently have a Roku, Sony 777, and the Oppo 93. While I love the connivence factor of the Roku and have the idea in my head that the Roku for a mere $69.00 acts as my own media server I still see and hear a difference in physically putting a disc in the tray of my Oppo and the Sony.
Some of my friends and family (what do they know ha-ha) thing I am crazy and say they do not hear quote "that much of a difference".
I feel that there is more accurate audio and film presence putting a disc in the tray....Yea!
I have been thinking about listening to my iTune collection from my iMac to my HT. I am also considering taking the use of my Sony 777 (capacity 400). Clearing out all of my standard dvd's and replacing them with 400 of my best music cd's. When I get tired of my 400 Best of..collection I can always put in my second Best of.

But what do I know.

I also prefer physical media when there is a quality difference. A year ago or so I was looking into streaming video and found this comparison table (may be out of date now).
http://www.reelseo.com/video-quality-comparison-reference-table/
I also found that uncompressed, a Blu-ray would produce a bitrate of 3000 Mbits/sec. So at 40 Mbits/sec, Blu-ray discs are already are fairly compressed with a 75 to 1 compression ratio.

For music I am OK with the lossless compression such a Apple Lossless which has a 2 to 1 compression ratio (or there abouts). Most people though are just fine listening to music that has been severely compressed using really poor equipment.


That said, I use NetFlix to get access to content that is not available elsewhere and am willing to put up with the reduction in quality for the low cost and great convenience.

There has newer bean any point of getting higher than 720p for 2d movies. Many people dont reliase how much space uncompressed hd video takes up.

Products getting delaied several years is nothing unusial for prepros. The anthem d2v 3d should have bean released 2010 and is currently being tested to gey the hdmi 1.4a certification. The benefit with hdmi 1.4a over 1.3 is
-3d
-ethetnet channel
-audio return channel
-2k*4k at 24hz
So the only real benefit with version 1.4 is 3d which would need hdmi split otherwise, i am personally not interested in 3d. I doubt hdmi 1.4a is worth the extra time it took to implement in these 2 cases.

Hey Anjora

I do agree with you on 3D which I also do not care for. Where you do say that products being delayed for several years being nothing unusual is one I feel that is going the wrong direction in part of Outlaw for the 978. Competition is strong and technology is changing at a rapid rate. Outlaw has to get off the starting line sometime and their name as a competitor and a leader hangs in the balance.

Please read what Ritz wrote above in which I agreed just below him. Outlaw are delaying themselves into irrelivance on this delay. It shows they are not big enough to tool out a new high quality unit and stay competitive within fast changing technology.

They HAVE to get the 978 out now and quit delaying the project for reasons of perfection. They may be facing a situation in that "They built it and nobody came."

Outlaw made a mistake in trying to become a cutting edge company. They don't have the money or size to pull it off. They could have come out with a 1.3 with Audyssey 2 years ago, combined it with superior components, and made a killing at the right price point. Better to do what's already done and do it at a better price point. Oppo showed the way.

I think Outlaw was fine until HDMI came along. It walloped a lot of higher end companies too. And the Trinnov thing didn't help, but now that all of that is behind them, it should be easier to bring a pre-pro to market.

This matches my observation that "HD" from Dish and DirecTV aren't much better than a good upscaled DVD. And that is still true today. Not like it's gotten any better. If anything, Dish and DirecTV might have gotten worse because of their neverending desire to cram more mediocre channels into the same limited bandwidth.

Of course Blu-ray isn't perfect; nothing ever is in this world of ours. Blu-ray uses MPEG 4 for compression instead of MPEG 2 that was used for DVD. MPEG 2 is regarded as providing better PQ but isn't as compressible as MPEG 4. Because of the increase in resolution to 1080P together with the sufficient quality and higher compression ratios obtained through MPEG 4, it was chosen not only for Blu-ray but also for the now defunct HD-DVD.

Fiber optics should have enough bandwidth to allow 1080P video at the same quality as Blu-ray. But fiber optics is very expensive to deploy, specially in large countries like the US and Canada. It becomes cheaper and feasible for large metropolitan areas with high population densities but in small rural areas, the high cost makes it much less appealing. You must also consider the networking infrastructure needed to support the high bandwidth attainable by the fiber optics, i.e. the large routers. All this together makes it quite expensive.

I'm glad that you can discern the SQ difference between FLAC and MP3 in such a modest setup. Most people nowadays unfortunately don't care, choosing the convenience of storing thousands of terrible sounding MP3s in little storage space over the sound quality of FLAC or uncompressed audio.

I hope your shipping prediction for the 978 comes before mine (November 14).

Nice comparison table! Thanks for the link. I've saved the page for future reference. This supports what many of us here have been stating in recent posts and what we've observed through the last decade or so.

Yes Oppo showed the way but unfortunately they didn't want to get into the business of developing a processor like the 978 despite the many requests of Oppo loyalists as Gonk reported in a previous post.

i still have these logitech speakers. i am using a better setup atm($400). i have uninstalled spotify long time ago and i only listend to good mastered music now. the speakers is from a swedish company "dynavoice dm-5" so the bottleneck should be the room. i can hear difference between sampling rates with my current setup(ribbon tweeters).

with the result in the hand it's always easy to say what should have bean done and what shouldn't, model 978 is a great example of that after 2 year delay, i doubt outlaw counted with that when they decided to include stuff like hdmi 1.4a. i don't know about a single prepro or reciever without issues like audio dropout at launch, it might be worth the longer time it took if model 978 is bugfree from start.

I believe that the Trinnov episode with Sherwood hurt Outlaw more than anything.

As for HDMI, there are tons of devices that use it in the market, not only A/V gear like receivers, DVD/BD players but also a multitude of small boxes like the Rokus, Apple TV, etc. To implement HDMI, an EE designer chooses a System-on-chip (SoC) like those from Analod Devices or others that integrate all the HDMI functionality (transmitters, receivers and switches). The complexity really comes after HDMI. When you have to integrate a pair of general purpose DSPs with a memory subsystem running some form of room correction into a bus along with all the other circuits (HDMI, S/PDIF, DACs, etc.) and then control everything with some proprietary software or an imbedded OS. All of this requires a lot of digital circuit design and low-level programming expertise from a team of engineers; the R&D involved is complex and expensive.

In the days of DVD with Dolby digital and DTS with no room correction, A/V processors and receivers used mostly off-the-shelve ICs and fixed-functionality DSPs that provided most of the features. There was much less routing and custom processing of the data involved.

These dynavoice dm-5 speakers have an interesting design at a very affordable price. I like ribbon speakers. They remind me a lot of the Ikon line of speakers made by DALI of Denmark.

You get what you pay for in this case. From what I've read, it seems the speakers are well constructed, but don't sound particularly good. Pretty speakers are nice. Pretty speakers that don't sound very good...not so nice. For about the same $$$ you can get a pair of lower end Polks like the TSI200/300 and likely get better sound if you're on a budget. The Polks aren't particularly pretty, nor are they the greatest sounding, but the TSI line seems to be a nice balance between affordable and competent sound quality.

Best,

I have read a lot about them and most info says the are comparible with much higher priced speakers soundwise. http://www.hififorum.nu/artiklar/DynavoiceDFDM5/2.html the tnt audio review was the second to complain about the intensity of the treamble. Many people states they need a lot of time to break in but sounds really good after that, "brake in" usally means getting used to the new sound. Dynavoice definition us meant to play clean and somehow neatral for the price, i wasn't able to listend to speakers si it was a bit of gamble, i think it turned out good.

As for hdmi:
There is currently 3 standards used, hdmi, dvi, displayport. Displayport seams to be much better than hdmi but unfortionatly it's mostly used in computer monitors, a single displayport cable may replace 2 dvi cables and one usb cable!

The dynavoice dm-5 also don't appear to be very efficient. With the mid-range tweeter trying to cover the frequency span of 1800 to 9000 it makes for a tough job. For about $600 you can get a pair of Magnepan MMGs and probably be very happy since you mostly listen to music.

It's covering a even larger span in the df-8 model and i asked them about this and they stated that there woulsn't be a glap becuase of the dome tweeter, however i am not convinced of that. There is many speakers with good value like ztz 99.36, elac also makes good value speakers that are made in germany.

I am considering a pair of elac 249 but first i will do some listening with studio quality music. I think i will go for prepro+amp. I am skeptical against audyssey pro atm but i will read more about it and see if it's justified. Model 978 might work as a temporaty sulotion.

Well, there is always Marantz and Integra.
I mean it seems that a lot of people are getting justifiably irritated but I do think that we should keep in mine that the 990 is a superb processor even today some YEARS after it was put out on the market. Yes, it is true that Outlaw is a small company and PERHAPS it cannot compete or mass production as quickly as Sony, Marantz and so many other mass marketed electronic companies, but Outlaw puts their money where their mouths are and I think that when the 978 comes out of the gate they will be on the BEST of the top ten list in Home Theater.
Their products are well built and their support is superb.

This is not to say that if someone needs a processor they should stick around and do without until Outlaw decides to market their new 978 but how many people on this forum that have the 990 are having problems that require them to buy a new processor. I am sure that the vast majority of Outlaws would not consider buying a NEW processor unless the one they have was out of commission.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I believe in loyalty but if you have the money and NEED a replacement for the 990 then you should go for it.
My friend just purchased the Integra 80.3 for $2600.
I think it sounds great wired to his new Focal W series speakers but I can't say they are out running my B&W 804's and my Outlaw 990 processor.

Forgot about the MMG's. Those are indeed a bargain these days and can sound absolutely stunning if you make the effort to upgrade the "lowest bidder" crossover with quality parts. That's the best bang for the buck going these days in terms of amazing sounding speakers and you've got an amp that can drive them. Missing my maggies sumthin fierce.

Best,

Well right now Marantz isn't doing much competing either on the processor market. They came out with the AV7005 a couple of years ago. Some folks have been waiting for the release of the successor to the AV8003 for about two years. It was supposed to come out in April 2011 as the AV8005 but then the earthquake hit in March. By now it should be an AV8006 but with no news of whether it will be released. It seems that D&M Holding, the parent company of Denon, Marantz and McIntosh among others, has been reluctant to release upgrades of their higher-end processors and receivers these last couple of years on the Marantz and Denon brands. On the other hand, the mid to lower-end models get refreshed fairly regularly. Maybe they don't think that this market segment is as viable as the mid to low-end one right now with the economic downturn.

Hey Anjora,

I've found the perfect display for you! Take a look at this 145" (12 feet or 3,7m) behemoth 8K plasma display developed by NHK & Panasonic. Watch it on here on YouTube. Unless you've got a lot of bandwidth, I recommend you download and save the 1080P MP4 on your computer but it will take 100MB for the 2:16 video clip. Just look at the lady standing next to the display, she looks fuzzy in comparison to the pictures displayed! Of course you'll have to build a nuclear power plant in your backyard to power it. Just when I was starting to salivate on the new Panasonic VT50 plasma line, this thing comes along... Enjoy!

My 990 coupled with the OPPO 83 is everything I need to do everything I want to do. I also have an Onkyo 886 for my Miami home but I love to listen to my 990 when I am up north. The 990 is the perfect processor for us that don't want all the bells and whistles onboard and prefer outboard gadgets. Lack of HDMI is not a big deal since it has 7 channel analog input and the OPPO outputs directly to a display. The only thing that has ever disappointed me with the 990 is the OSD for the menu and thats an easy fix with a S-video cable.

The one thing I miss in my Oppo 83 is the extended selection of crossovers for the bass management that's being added to the Oppo's 93 & 95. Having only 80 Hz for the bass management is insufficient for my needs. Another thing that I would like is all the new video and sound codecs that have been added.

The trends of A/V merchants increasingly being beat-up by discounters makes them especially skittish to carry costly inventory.
The manufacturers are stuck between some rather unpleasant alternatives -- give up the volume associated with more affordable models (which jeopardizes their workforce and supply chain...) or 'churn' their product mix annually with minor changes (which kills off more of their retailers / distributors and alienates customers) or try to reposition their brands / product mix to appeal to different market segments (which involves heavy advertising and marketing costs, hurting cash-flow...).

These problems are not unique to A/V equipment -- camera makers, home computer makers, appliance companies, bicycle companies, and other products that once were commonly sold at specialty retailers and now are mostly sold at warehouse clubs and online are all threatened with new challenges.

It certainly does not help that only a few years ago it looked like "global prosperity" was limitless and now it looks like the gap between the 1% and everybody else is getting wider.

To my way of thinking the fact that Outlaw is doing as well as they are in VERY trying times is a positive

1. Stats from industry analytics firms are next to useless. They're often made up.

2. "Blu-Ray" local streaming has been available, commercially, for a few years - even with the atrocious and pointless BR menus. You won't see internet-based super-high bit-rate streaming for a very long time, if ever. Not because it won't be technically possible, but because there's no demand for it and unlikely to be any future demand.

3. No amount or variety of copy protection is going to stop a dedicated individual from ripping their media, Blu-Ray or otherwise.

4. If you can't see the difference between 720p and 1080p then you may not be using a high quality display, are using a small display or are sitting far enough away not to perceive a difference. BTW, there's no 24 fps 720p format - for many people 24hz frame rate is reason enough to use 1080.

Yes I do agree in that if one has a good processor don't just replace it right away. I would wait a bit and see some reviews on the 978. I'm sure it will be an excellent product but I'm not sure Outlaw will enjoy the success they had in the past. They need to market this very well and also price it accordingly. Your friend's Integra is a whopper at $2600 clams and out of reach for most people. I'm running my AVR as analog and it sounds fantastic. No Audyssey which isn't the best thing but it still sounds good. Price is the object here.

Full towers? Huge sub? 60hz crossover is the key. Small speakers? Huge sub which can be localized? 60hz xover. Small speakers? Medium sub? 80hz xover. Small speakers? Small sub? Get bigger speakers and a bigger sub or stick with Bose lifestyle system....my brother has that system. Still sounds ok though.

beyond, I have a pair of Newform Research R645 speakers up front that go down to 36Hz. I have a pair of R630 in the back that do 40Hz. Being a fellow Canuck, I hope you know Newform. My sub is an SVS 16-46PC that goes down to 16Hz. If I were to use the Oppo 83's bass management, I would want the crossover set at 40Hz so that only sounds below that go to the sub; the Oppo 83 can only do 80Hz. The Oppo 93 & 95's bass management supports a whole range of frequencies down to 40Hz.

Hey Jam

I have heard about Newform Research and I did check out the website on the R645. I must say this is a very impressive speaker you got. For music you don't really need a sub on with these speakers but for home theatre a proper sub IS needed like your SVS.

Newform states this about the speakers......

"For home theater systems the majority of users will want a very good subwoofer with the 645v3 since it can operate solidly into the low 30s and can be crossed over well below 45Hz. Owners frequently run the 645s full range with the sub as augmentation rather than replacement at low frequencies."

You see Jam....the R645s operate solidly into the LOW 30s. Since your SVS 16-46PC goes down to 16hz then a crossover at 40hz will be needed on your system. I know about the power of SVS as I own a new version of the PB13 Ultra.

If your Oppo 83 can only do 80hz I take it you do not own a pre/pro with bass management that hits down at 40hz. You may need to replace you Oppo for the 93 or 95.

Also note that even in the low 30hz region your SVS will totally out perform your speakers so a 40hz crossover is the best. You may want to experiment with 50hz and test it on a movie you are familiar with. In closing you got to get down to 40hz somehow either by a new player or by a pre/pro for bass management. Then meter out the power to 75db on the speaker system and 78db on the sub and Bob's your uncle.

Yes the R645s are fine sounding speakers but they're butt ugly (low WAF). However I have the R645v1 that I've owned for 10 years now. You're basically arriving at the same conclusion I've come to and that's how I've been using these speakers all these years. I want a new processor to replace my old Rotel R972 receiver that I use only for home theater or surround music. The new processor must be equipped with with HDMI, good room correction is a must as my listening room is square and suffers from some really nasty room modes as a result and of course of the utmost importance is great SQ. That's why I'm waiting for the release of the 978, a new Marantz AV8006 or whatever else may come out along those lines.

Hey Jam

I know you post a lot on the 978 thread and I love reading your posts. You must be very young or expect to live to 110 years if you have the 978 in mind. I am looking more and more the way of Marantz in their 7005. Love to get the 8006 but the price may be a bit out of my reach. If the 978 is for not then Marantz are fantastic. Seen them up close and they look like a million bucks which brings me to another point. If the 978 looks cosmetically like a cheap bandage job like the original photos posted by Scott and ends up looking like something $300 then why even buy the thing even if it could take on a Lamborghini?

Beyond, thanks for the kind words. Let's just say that I'm closer to 50 than to 40. I would recommend that you wait a few months to see what happens with the 978 and perhaps by that time Marantz may bring out a surprise of their own in the form of an AV7007. They'll probably both be at the same price point. Marantz have always had a flair for making really good looking gear. As for the 978, some people have posted that they liked the esthetics of the faceplate; beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If an hypothetical AV8007 is out of your price range but an AV7007 and 978 were to become available, then I would personally go for the best sounding one. However, you have to go with whatever needs and preferences you have.

Hey Jam we are probably the same age. I am willing to wait a while and an AV7007 would be nice in Marantz. I honestly would love to see the 978 out and reviewed. I would like to see it at a fair price and nothing like Integra. I'm not in a huge rush but I like to know where this thing is headed. When I do want to buy then I will be waiting for nobody's product. You can forget Emotiva. I am not going there.

I agree with your point of view.

As for Emotiva, while I find some of the concepts and features from the XMC-1 very seductive, I have a feeling that it may not perform as well as the 978 in terms of SQ and as I have expressed in a previous post, I'm not convinced that the Tact digital room correction system would be the most adequate, mostly because of it's single listening position nature. I could be wrong but time will tell. Furthermore, Tact have yet to integrate the Tact DRC technology into a unit other than the Tact TCS processor although I have no doubt that Dr. Radomir Bozovic (the co-founder and president) is up to the task as he's a brilliant man but he's also extremely busy with running most facets of Tact Audio and this could add quite some delays in the delivery of the DRC technology to Emotiva.

I just had a look at the up and coming Emotiva XMC-1 and cosmetically it looks beautiful compared to the redundant looking 978. For me Outlaw missed the mark on the design of the 978. I realize the platform remaining the same helps keep the cost down and within a price range that a lot Outlaws can afford but honestly with all of the delays regarding the 978 I do believe that Outlaw has lost some of its potential bottom line. All of this for me means that I have been able to save a bit more and possibly might be willing to spend more money on a completive product.
I know that there has been some negative talk about the Emotiva product line on this forum but can someone direct me to a website where I can get an unbiased opinion about this company.
As mentioned in another post I am not in a rush to make a purchase whether it be Marantz, Emotiva or Outlaw. I certainly would not at the front of the line. I'd rather sit back and wait until some reviews came out.
I knew nothing of Marantz coming out with a new processor but if it happened I would be listening very closely to the comparisons of all three companies.

Personally, I think the Outlaw 978 looks a lot nicer than the Emotiva XMC-1. I will wait until both have been reviewed, but on paper like the specs on the Emotiva better. Would definitely go with Outlaw if they ever include Trinnov.

Which specs?