USB cable for a USB DAC?

Hello all,

I will be using a USB DAC soon (Audio Note Dac 2.1 Kit). I have been researching USB cables so I want to hear from all of you what you think.

For best use computer cables, I feel the Belkin Gold will be fine. For audiophile type stuff, there is Kimber, the overpriced Synergistic Research, the upcoming Wireworld cables, etc.

Can some one please suggest the best sound cable?

Liz Out

I think you're going over the edge on this one. Simply buy a high quality USB cable from Belkin or some other reputable manufacturer. "Audiophile" digital cables are pure bunk, and unfortunately there are people who are fooled into thinking otherwise.

Read this Altec:


http://www.computeraudiophile.com/node/207

So, is that supposed to impress me? Sorry, But there is so much BS in the audio industry, and designer digital cables is just one part of it. If you want to blow your money, fine, but I'd rather spend it on real improvements.

Hi Altec,

The Belkin Gold series looks good yet I feel Ray Kimber knows what is best for cables.

Please tell me what you feel works best?

I DID tell you what would work best, in my first post. Evidently you didn't read it, don't think I know what I'm talking about, or are going to spend the money anyway. Have fun.

ANY USB cable will work for this application.

USB is a digital cable standard.

The cable either meets spec or it doesn't. Any money spent on a cable that performs better than the spec is wasted money as the equipment CANNOT perform better than the spec using USB connectors.

Digital cables either work, or they don't. Don't fall for the BS of having to spend more money for HDMI, USB or ethernet cables.

I think the likelihood of logic prevailing in this instance is about zero. :rolleyes:

Altec,


I ordered a 6 foot Belkin Gold series USB 2.0 cable.

Liz

Good. Now with the money you've saved do something that will really improve the sound of your system, such as throwing out the passive crossover networks in your speakers and switching over to a real active crossover system (and I'm not just talking about the sub).

Now this sounds interesting and has peaked my curiosity.

Altec, could you elaborate further?

Also, with a speaker that is both passive and active (tweets and mids passive) and woofers active, does the degree of difficulty increase?

AK

True active crossover setups are more complex than I'm willing to type, however sites like Elliot Sound Products (google them) have a very good primer.

If somebody is really serious about the best sound quality possible, there is no other option. It's a pretty involved undertaking, but worth it.

Sorry for the thread hijack Liz.

After impulsively replying to Altec last post, I did a little research on active crossovers.

Altec, I am curious to what your suggestions would be regarding this. Would you implement a outboard active crossover? And from our past discussions, I would think this should be a tube based unit.

Since the crossover is placed between the pre amp and amp, there is no increased degree of difficulty. Even though, I am still a little confused in regards to my application, primarily with hook up. I am assuming the cable to the speaker would have to be split.

There is just enough information for me to get myself into trouble.

So how much money are we considering to implement an active crossover?

With a tube crossover unit, my buffer would no longer be necessary, correct?

I did do some research on multi-channel tube amps. I came across the Butler Audio hybrid amps. The literature is interesting, and user reviews are positive. Is this marketing "BS" and what is your experience with hybrid amps?

Although, I have asked myself if it is worth pursuing multi channel tube amps or multiple tube amps for the home theater application.

What is the amp power consumption with SS vs. Tubes?

My girlfriend finds me hypocritical when I am trying to save electricity throughout the house, but I have a room dedicated room for audio gear.

Sorry for all the questions, and drifting topic, however they've been building up since the "990+bryston+paradigm studio" thread.

AK

An active crossover is a requirement, and it can be solid state or tube, depending on your preferences. Tube amps are less efficient than solid state, mainly because of the filament power needed. This is no big deal for me, but you have to answer these questions for yourself. The most used setup is a solid state amp for the woofers and a lower powered tube amp for the tweeters (the high frequencies need much less power - roughly half as much as the woofer or less).

Again, I would suggest you visit the Elliot site and others for detailed descriptions on what is needed to implement a setup such as this.

I will be using a USB DAC soon (Audio Note Dac 2.1 Kit). I have been researching USB cables so I want to hear from all of you what you think.

For best computer, I feel the Belking Gold wil be fine. For audiophile typr stuff, there is Kimber, the overpriced Synergistic Research, the upcoming Wireworld cables, etc.

Can some one please suggest the best sound cable?


Just for kicks look up the comparison of copper to silver as far as conductors go. The difference is on the order of .3 NANO-Ohms (that is 3 X 10-10)per meter of material. This really means that silver plated copper wire from Kimber industries is just a high priced WIRE. I thinks Ray Kimber knows what is good for Ray Kimber's wallet.

So, does anyone use a better grade USB cable that gives better results?

Ask Ray Kimber....... :p

I am confused when you state better results. What differences have you heard between USB cables or are you expecting to hear?

Frankly, it hard to accept that there are audible differences between USB 2.0 cables given that the signal is digital. There are currently 2 specifications for USB: 1.0 and 2.0 with 2.0 being able to support 1.0. If your USB slot on the computer is 2.0 (not a given), it should be capable of passing a specific bit rate over a 2.0 cable to a 2.0 device connected to that cable. The maximum bit rate is now 480M bits per second. It has been that way since 2000.

Those believing Ray Kimber or any other higher priced cable, make a huge improvement, you may want to check " Maple Shades " catolog.I think they can match Kimber's exotic claims and price.

I found what looks like to be an aweseome All silver cable that I may demo. Will keep you informed.....

Please do. Will stand by with baited breath next to my computer for your full report........

I saw an ad for an all Platinum cable with gold connectors on the net and it was quoted as only $999.99 per linear foot. The connectors are separately priced but it seems to me to be a small price to pay for such expensive cables so I can brag to my friends that I have purchased the most expensive poorly designed cables in the world. They will be Sooooo impressed.

It is with a sigh and sadness that I read, once again, that some of our members have such a shallow understanding of digital information.

Simply: if all the little ones and zeros are recognized properly by the receiving equipment in the proper order and are ‘captured’ within the ‘windows of time’ allotted, it matters not how pristine the actual electrical signals were or whether they arrived via gold, silver, copper, plastic, leather or horsehair. That is one of the basic reasons behind, and the concept/design of digital information, in the first place.

Let me put it to you another way: can you tell, by studying the quality of the text now displayed before your eyes, whether the data that created it arrived via a barely maintained, slow dial-up connection, an average dsl/cable broadband connection, a home-based FIOS connection, or an even faster ‘more direct’ commercial connection? Would the text be more crisp, clear, even ‘stellar’, if my computer were connected directly to yours, now, ‘live’, via a million-dollar high-end cable?

bb4tb has summed up what my ill intentioned post was meant to infer in excellent prose worthy of an outlaw.

Judging by the aliasing in the text, I can tell with certainty that it is from a DSL line. No other method makes text look like that.......

Do you need silver bullets to hunt trolls or do the usual lead hollowpoints do the trick?

I knew there was a reason I was glad to have altec back in the forum. I initially thought it was his extensive knowledge, but maybe it was simply a fondless for his style of sarcasm.

Anyway, since the thread is well and truly 'jacked...
...I wonder if dad still carries that old silver bullet he cast back in the 80's? He cast a number of them (.45's, I think) for some buddies in his RC flying club due to some weird discussion they all had one day. They didn't actually load any of them, as far as I know, and for a number of years he kept it in his pocket with his keys - sort of a good luck charm. I think it's been sitting in an old mug on his dresser for a number of years now, though.

As for the question itself, I'm fairly sure the only way to kill a troll is a profound, cleansing flame. Of course, the collateral damage from said flame tends to be quite high - often killing the troll hunter as well and leaving many bystanders with headaches. Depending on the troll, an alternative is that most devastating of tools: the ignore list, or the conscious act of ignoring.

Is that kind of like zen archery?

As my fiance likes to point out after I've shouted at some driver with poor manners or poor driving skills or both that I'm not very good at just shrugging it off and ignoring it.

A zen warrior I will be someday, but a lot of people will have bought useless expensive clocks by then.

"Zen archery" is a good way of putting it, actually. Much more elegant than "don't feed the troll" - and it suitably describes the underlying challenge of actually doing it when faced with certain trolls (especially those bearing jars of rocks and crazy clocks).

Is it something about August that does weird things to the minds of electronic toy junkies?

I'm pretty sure that our minds do weird things year-round.

Not this weird…found an interesting piece on trolling in the NY Times Magazine today. Altec's gentle humor—the inspiration for the "troll" comment, I think—is mere child's play.

Oh, altec definitely didn't demonstrate trolling...

My oh My has my post been trolling. I have located what looks like an awesone, all silver USB cable. After I get one and hav tried it out, I will report.

Make sure you get some good silver polish, and use it weekly. Electrons hate to travel through tarnished silver.

LOL, I will tell all Guy.

I finally ordered what belive is the finest Audiophile grade , USB cable out there. It is 100% all silver wire , setup to maximixe the flow of Audio over a USB cable.

More to come.

I'm not sure whether to laugh, cry or simply walk away.

I think only Joe The Plumber would be able to appreciate the sonic improvement.

Would see the results of a double blind test between the solid silver cable and any random USB 2 cable that costs under $10 maybe even $5.

I once used my mom's sterling silver butterknife and stuck it in a 120Volt receptacle. Once I recovered, I then used a coat hanger made of plain junk steel wire. I definitely got the biggest effect with the butter knife. I guess it is possible that I was used to the effect on the second attempt and did not fully appreciate the subtle differences in the ringing in my ears, but I have to go with the butterknife on this one. The other thing I remember clearly is Mom's shock when she found out that one of her butterknives was badly tarnished and slightly shorter than the others. She never forgave me.

I'd say go for the blind test next... LOL

Funny story, it brought back some memories (the painful kind).

Yeah, well, anybody who buys into the bunk that somehow a ultra high priced cable will sound better when carrying digital data is truly BLIND to the engineering realities of how electronics work.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

I would say intentionally ignorant, as in this case the end result is easy to demonstrate.

Will a file copied from one computer to 2 separate external USB drives, using 2 different "grades" of USB cable, arrive at it's destinations as different files?

Maybe if my son wants his short story to sound "warmer," we should use a silver cable to copy it after he writes it :p

Oops...

[gingerly retracing steps out of the minefield...]

Never mind me please.

My post wasn't directed necessarily at you, but at those who believe that such things as silver cables making a difference in purely digital transmission will make an audible difference.

Successful digital transmission only depends on the receiving end being able to tell a 1 from a zero, and there is a very definite theshold for that. There is not a "sort of 1 or sort of zero" state. Either the data is correct or it is not. If it is not, there will be obvious audio dropouts.

I fibally ordered that cable! This one wasat the RMFA and was big Hit!

More to come.

Liz out

I didn't want to jump on this discussion, but I was curious to find out if things are really this simple.

I am mostly familiar with the typical network computer telecommunications protocols and associated schemes. Since I didn't initially believe Altec's statement that bits are simply dropped, I decided to poke around the Internet to learn if something similar to the type of error correction that goes on in the telecommunication world is done with digital audio signals. I found quite a bit about AC-3, PCM and DSD. For instance, there is an extensive amount of error correction done in the CD player itself. However, I saw very little mention of transmission errors and much more concern about encoding/decoding "quantization" errors, which seem to be more audible.
Here is the Wikipedia entry on PCM which talks a little bit about error correction schemes.

In computer telecommunications, let's take Ethernet for example, we use schemes like manchester encoding to ensure the integrity of the transmission at a very low level. As Altec points out, things are apparently much simpler in the digital audio transmissions we are dealing with here - this surprised me initially, but it makes sense since this is a point-to-point asynchronous exchange (a "bitstream", now I get it). It looks like all the work is left to the encoding/decoding process to deal with data integrity at the payload level. In which case, all things being equal, I don't personally think the type of cable matters at all, any more than the type of optical transmitter/receiver does - but that's my opinion, you are entitled to yours. This could bring us into a whole new argument as to which encoding scheme is better, but that's another thread. I found this paper (in pdf format) which summarizes some of the important concerns in one single document.

In any case, my ears cannot tell the difference and this whole 1s and 0s talk makes me glad that I left my computer science background behind and went with Information Systems for my PhD.

USB to a Great, designed DAC is the best!

I've finally figured it out. You're the Sarah Palin of the audio world.

Boy, was I off. In my earlier post, I thought the argument was between coax and toslink cables.

I now realize that we are talking about USB cables. Since USB cables can be used in many different ways, depending on the protocols involved, there may be more justification for concern over quality and ability to recover from errors. However, this doesn't mean that a cable has a certain "sound quality" any more than one brand of CD laser pickup would "sound" different from another.

I also don't understand one thing, where is this USB cable coming from? If it is coming from a computer or component that is connecting to the DAC as a USB Audio interface class then, in my opinion, the cable is irrelevant. But, if it sounds better to you, nothing we can say in this forum will change that.

What do you mean by this?

Unencoumbered by reality and fact.

Altec,

I have the Cable yet my buddy is not done with the Dac yet.

More to come.

Liz Out

All I can say is wow, I think i am going to start selling high end cables.....