Blu-Ray Player to get if you are interested

http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/005823.html

Its the Panasonic DMP-DB30. If you are in the market for BluRay, this looks like the one. HDMI 1.3, 5.1 Analog out, DD, DD+, DTS, DTS-HD, DTS-MA, Profile 1.1 with SD card. Outputs HDMI bitstream audio (although the disk probably wont let you, because the mixing is done in the player, not in an AV reciever.)

Tres0r

What do this mean? What mixing?

I've been doing a bit of reading about this player. It's the first standalone player I've seen that I feel like I might be willing to spend some money on.

Interesting thing about this player: they omitted any onboard decoding of TrueHD or DTS-HD (and possibly DD+). The player will be able to output the bitstreams for the new audio formats - I've even seen one review where someone was able to do just that with both TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio tracks. To do so, though, it will come at the expense of any interactive content that requires mixing audio streams. As this is a feature that seems to have been less used on Blu-ray than on HD-DVD, I'm not sure that it will be all that much of an issue. And in those rare cases where it is used, there will likely be a fall-back option of a legacy audio track such as Dolby Digital (which the player can decode internally) to use in conjunction with the secondary audio track. When trying to work through all the different scenarios in my mind, I decided that I'd be willing to step down to a core DD track for the movie if I was watching some bonus content that was going to distract from the movie itself anyway. If I'm listening to the lossless formats, I'm doing so specifically to watch the movie, not to listen to a commentary track alongside the movie.

Both HD formats have provisions for interactive content that allows two audio streams to be overlayed. The most obvious example for any HD-DVD owners is the menu structure on most of Universal's discs: a bar appears at the bottom of the screen and allows access to different features (audio settings, subtitle settings, scene selection, special features) while the movie plays in the background. These menus include audio cues (it beeps when you move the cursor), which are mixed in with the soundtrack for the movie. To achieve this, the soundtrack must be decoded internally so the player can add in the beeps. It then outputs multichannel PCM via HDMI, multichannel analog (if the player supports it), or it re-encodes the PCM to DTS and outputs via optical or coaxial digital. The XA2 is the first HD-DVD player to be HDMI v1.3 and (thanks to a firmware update recently) to support bitstream output of TrueHD and DTS-HD MA, but if those bitstreams are output then the menu won't beep. There were reports very early on that in order to insure the interactive content would always worked, some or even all HD-DVD's were being authored with a flag that would prevent bitstream output and instead force internal decoding.

Gonk,
Here is a link to the review I think you were mentioning.
http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/panasonic-dmp-bd30-1275.shtml

Looks good!

Do you know if studios are still prohibiting bitstream output? Can the hardware override it?(prob not, im sure)

Yeah, that's the review I read. I don't know if Blu-ray discs ever prohibited bitstream output, as the only references I saw were to HD-DVD's. Even those references were bordering on rumor, since there was no way to test it without hardware that allowed bitstream output. Some time I'll have to go hunting for feedback from XA2 users who have tried to output TrueHD (or DTS-HD MA, although I don't know how many HD-DVD titles actually have DTS-HD MA content) to learn how it works and if there are any issues.

The screenshots in that review indicate that there is a setting in the BD30 to force it to disregard mixed content and output a bitstream ("BD-Video Secondary Audio: On/Off"). There is also a screen shot of a receiver's front panel actually reporting the new formats and decoding them, so clearly it works for at least some discs (and potentially for all discs, assuming that the secondary audio "off" mode doesn't run afoul of and lose out to some previously un-seen disc flag). Unfortunately, the review doesn't mention what discs were used for testing. It also doesn't mention load time for the newer, more Java-intensive titles like Pirates of the Caribbean - something that I'd be interested to know about considering how painfully slow those titles can load on other players.

Hey all,

Made the plunge and went with Bluray. Got a Samsung BDP-1400. Dedided not to wait for the Panasonic, because I have an Onkyo 797, and it cant do any decoding, while the Samsung can.

I connected it with analog outs, and it works great.Uncompressed PCM (native on disk), and DTS-HD work awesome (sent as PCM over analog outs).

The biggest thing I noticed is that bass information and output is MUCH, MUCH better. soundstage and image is more coherent, pushed back, and more transparent in the front.

Picture is very, very good. Picture was connected with HDMI. Like watching something on HD cable, but without compression artifacts with motion or fine details. Picture improvement was more subtle than the audio. SD upconversion was what I expected, basically a softer picture.

This player supports bitsteam output, DTS-MA is supported outboard with a FW update. DTS-HD,TRUHD,DD+ are decoded internally. I've had no issues at all, although there are updates for it.

Now all I need to do is wait for the 999! FWIW, I hear the Dave Matthews Bluray disk is a must buy for audiophiles. Im not the biggest fan, but I cant wait to see how it sounds.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/964/davematthews_liveatradiocity.html

If you go for the Panny, Gonk, I hope it works out for you. To me, it's just another unfinished Blu-ray hardware spec, full of compromise.

Like you, I've been watching for the Blu-ray player that appears to be configured like a real, final product. I still haven't found one. I could even deal with the inflated pricing, if they would just release a player that didn't seem as if it would be obsolete (or at least highly compromised) in six months.

What are you looking for the player to actually do? The only thing that I saw that I may not get is the lastest and greatest BD Java.. I think that most of the times the extras arent worth much anyway.

If you want full codec support, analog out, with bitstream, the Samsung and Panasonic players all offer these functions.

If you are talking about the manufacturers shipping incomplete devices, only to upgrade them later, then I think you are going to be disappointed, because I dont think this trend is going to change. I dont really like it either, but more and more computing power is required to get the products to work, and they are getting more and more complex, especially when artificial roadblocks like DRM are added.

The BD30 still won't ever be profile 2.0 (to use the old name - haven't figured all the new names out), as there is no network connection. That's the biggest compromise, and it is a bit unfortunate considering that HD-DVD's had internet connectivity since the very first player. The BD30 also doesn't decode TrueHD or DTS-HD internally, although I've mulled this one over and don't think that the repercussions of this bother me over much - if I'm using a feature that requires a secondary audio stream, I'm not concentrating on the primary audio stream anyway and can live without a lossless format.

I'm jumping into this thread kind of late, but it piqued my interest, as I'm trying to see what my options are for Blu Ray and/or HD-DVD...

So a question to gonk or anyone else:

What Blu Ray players are currently on the market that provide on-board DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD decoding and send it out via 5.1/7.1 analog outputs? If such a beast exists, it looks like I could hang on to my 970 for a while.

None can decode DTS-HD MA - in fact, the only devices I know of that are capable of that are the new HDMI v1.3 receivers, which of course require an HDMI connection and a player capable of passing a DTS-HD MA bitstream. Some can decode the lossy form of DTS-HD, although the only one that I know off the top of my head that should be able to is the Samsung BD-P1400 (I just saw it listed in the specs).

TrueHD is a bit easier. To get TrueHD decoding and multichannel analog output, you can look at the Sony BDP-S1, the Panasonic BD10A, the Samsung BD-P1400 (and possibly the older Samsungs as well), the Pioneer BDP-94HD. There are a couple already-discontinued models (such as the Pioneer BDP-H1) that I think also support internal TrueHD decoding.

There's also the option of combo players - Samsung will have their combo player around the end of the year, and for $800 it'll play both HD formats. I'm pretty sure that it'll have internal TrueHD decoding with multichannel analog output. Again, no DTS-HD MA decoding.

Oh, yeah, there's one mis-statement in that post: there is at least one player that will decode DTS-HD MA. Denon's got a Blu-ray player that will decode both TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio. The DVD-3800BDCI supports internal decoding of both and has a 7.1 analog output. MSRP is $2,000.

Ouch! At $2,000, I think I'll pass. But thanks for the list of other players. I'll make a note of them.

Still not sure what to do though. I was hoping a good player-based solution would obviate the need to jump into a new pre/pro -- at least, for the next 2-3 years.

I know a lot of emphasis has been placed on the HDMI 1.3 issue, but unless I'm missing something, I'm not sure if I would realize all of its benefits as the native resolution on my display is 1080i. Add to that I would still need a new pre/pro AND a Blu-Ray, HD-DVD (or combo) player that could decode or pass both hi-def audio formats, and we're talking about a significant investment in new gear to take full advantage of what 1.3 brings to the table.

These new formats have become a real bummer! Apart from the hardware issues, from what I can tell, there are still only: (1) a handful of Hi-def DVD titles; and (2) even fewer that are encoded with TrueHD or DTS HD. And the prices are still $25 - $35 a pop.

I may have to sit on the fence a bit longer.

I just picked up this player and i have a couple questions. I have it hooked up through the multi channel outputs to take advantage of the uncompressed 5.1. Am I correct in assuming that I need to set speaker size, distance, and calibrate the channels seeing the player will be doing all the processing or does the 990 take care of all that for me. When I did try to calibrate the channel levels in the Panasonic I got the test tones but inceasing or decreasing the tone would not work. Please let me know what I am doing wrong. Also, would you leave the HDMI setting to auto or would you set it to what is appropriate for your TV. I have thee Pioneer Elite 1140 HD whick does up to 768p. The auto function sets it to 1080i every time.

The 990 will take care of that - set the speakers to large, the sub to on, and leave all distance and trim settings at zero.

I bought the BDS-s300 from Sony. I had to upgrade the firmware a few times...but have no problems with it.great player

I considered the S300 for a time last year, but it offered neither on-board decoding of the new formats nor bitstream output of those formats. It's also Profile 1.0 and reportedly has the same sluggish response time that has plagued most HD/BD players. Even though I'm going to be sticking with the core DD and DTS tracks for the time being (no HDMI v1.1+ support in my 990 and the multichannel analog input tied up by DVD-A and SACD), I want to at least have the option of getting to the new formats somehow later without buying a new player. That's why I went with the BD30 from Panasonic. It is a good bit faster than my HD-A2 (reports indicate that the only HD/BD player that can match or beat it on speed is the PS3, and the differences there are subtle), is Profile 1.1 (I know I'm losing Profile 2.0, but the PS3 is the only thing available for purchase that offers a hope of 2.0 and it would not have been a spouse-friendly player for me), and can do bitstream output of DD+, TrueHD, and DTS-HD HR and MA.

Gonk - so now that the format is basically over, would you still recommend the Panasonic BD30 for anew player or wait it out awhile?

UMtiger

There's at least one Profile 2.0 player on the horizon (the BD50) that will offer onboard decoding of most or all of the new audio formats. That will likely be a better candidate for pairing up with the Model 990 when it arrives in a few months. I went ahead with the BD30 back in November because I suspect that I'm within a year or maybe less of an upgrade to an HDMI v1.3 processor and I wouldn't be willing to surrender my multichannel analog input in the interim anyway (making internal decoding of very little value to me).

You know with one on the horizon as gonk says there are sure to be others close behind.

great stuff guys, now that the format wars are over i'll sit tight and wait for a blue-ray player that is a little more consumer friendly $$$ that is. I'll continue to use my toshiba hd-a3 as an upconverting player (as well as the hd-dvd player, for the few i've been able to buy.)I thiink 08 is going to be an audiophiles year.

Sony has just announced two new players.
For those of us that own the 990 the BDP-S550 will be of particular interest due to it's 7.1 analog output for DTS HD- Master Audio and DTS HD High Resolution audio.

Here is one of many links on the subject.

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=1041

thanks for the hit butchgo. I tend to lean toward the sony line when it comes to players. Not quite sure why that is exactly. I guess it probably has more to due with my good fortune with sony thus far than anything else. Anyway, it looks like this summer is really going to be heating up huh.

E'pin Sen Ob,

The next few months are going to be interesting that's for sure.

I am going to wait until all of the specs are out on both the Panasonic BD50 and the Sony S550.
They both seem to have what I want in a Blu-ray player but, like you, I tend to be very loyal to the Sony brand.
I have had such good luck over the years with their product that I have a hard time buying anything else but the Panasonic looks really good at this time.

I think it'll be interesting to see what Oppo Digital offers in Blu-ray. I think the Panasonic and Sony will both be great players, but when it comes to Sony, I feel their is always a premium for the brand name.

yeah it's definetly slow!what do you mean by the new formats?

97db-

That antenna in your sig? Several years ago, I bought a Radio Shack outdoor UHF/VHF antenna (very similar looking to the one you reviewed) for $21....I put it on my roof via chimney mount ($8 or $9); I live in Cranston, R.I, about 50-60 miles from Boston. I get every single HD station in Boston clear as a bell....the moral of the story is that height and direction are key to reception.

Blu-ray and HD-DVD include support for three new audio formats: Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD. Blu-ray also allows uncompressed multichannel PCM tracks. DD+ and the basic version of DTS-HD ("DTS-HD High Resolution") are lossy compression algorithms similar to Dolby Digital and DTS, although not as compressed as those older formats. TrueHD is a lossless compression (using the same MLP compression technology as DVD-Audio), as is the lossless form of DTS-HD ("DTS-HD Master Audio"). Neither the BD30 nor the S300 can decode those three new formats, so all you can do us rely on the Dolby Digital or DTS core tracks in those cases. The BD30 does allow bitstream output of these formats over HDMI to a compatible receiver or processor, which the S300 does not. Multichannel PCM tracks on some Blu-rays can of course be played back via multichannel analog output or HDMI in both cases. (See my HDMI FAQ ...)

Your last part of your post is so true...
My antenna is facing right at a hill!

I just thought it had to be an exceptional antenna to get all the channels that my other one couldnt with the situation I was in!