HDTV shopping question

Okay, gunslingers, I've got a question from a co-worker here. His 10-year-old Sony XBR TV was a victim of our big storm last month (although it took two or three trips to the shop to verify that it was down for the count), and he's looking for a replacement. On the one hand, he can pick up a comparable 27" standard-def TV with the insurance money and be out nothing. On the other hand, he can step up to an HD set. Plasma caught his eye earlier this year, but he eventually concluded that it was too expensive to mess with (especially for one that'll do HD resolution). He's not interested in going to a rear-projection set. At the moment, he has narrowed it down to a 32" or 34" direct-view HD set (which he's currently estimating will set him back around $1900 and may not include an HD OTA tuner) or a 27" standard TV for under $500. Either way, he'll also be picking up a DVD player.

His question is whether to stay with standard set for now and get a direct view or plasma HD set in a few years, or go ahead and get a direct view HD set now? Since I'm still sort of locked into waiting for a couple more years due to space limitations, I am not as up to date on the TV market. (For what it's worth, according to this map , the major local stations have all started broadcasting in HD now.) What do you all think? Take the plunge into HD now with a direct view set, or grab a standard set for now and wait for a few more years to see what happens to prices and alternatives?

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Well, I'll give you my thoughts, since I just went through the same thing. First, I'll cut to the chase. I bought a Sony KV32HS510. That's a 32" 4:3 HDTV set with the flat Wega picture tube. I love it. I paid $1234.00 at Sears, and got a Sony DLP-300 combo DVD/VCR for < $100 after rebate and pricematch with B&H Photo. No, it does not have a HDTV tuner.

Anyway, I went with the HDTV primarily for viewing DVDs at better resolution than possible with a standard set. I bought a progressive scan DVD player at the same time (they start around $60 now) to mate with the TV.

I went with 4:3 because I only had room for either a 30" 16:9 or a 32" 4:3 (the 16:9 image is physically the same size in both sets, within about 1/2"). Since I watch a lot of cable and play a lot of Playstation, the 4:3 was a better choice for me.

The choice of the Sony was because the Wega tube has the bonus of being able to display a widescreen image in full resolution. So regardless of whether I'm watching in 4:3 mode or 16:9 mode, I still get my full 1080 lines interlaced, or 480 progressive scan.

I'll be happy to answer any specific questions about my decision If you couldn't tell, I'm tickled pink with the Sony.

-Joe

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Remember the Intellivision?
http://www.gotmaille.com/nostalgia/

I can't and won't recommend anything other then Pioneer/Pioneer Elite for tv's..



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Play it LoUd!!

I have a question about Sony tvs. Do all of them turn on with a startling 'whump'?
I have a regular 27" Sony Trinitron that replaced a decent Magnavox blown out by a power surge two years ago (other people in the area were throwing burning microwaves out their doors!). My parents' Sony makes the same noise.
Does anyone have an idea about the reason for the noise and if it can be prevented or reduced?

I have personally loved the image on the Samsung DLP Televisions. They have an image very close to the Plasma, with a much reduced price tag.

I have a two year old Sony KD-34XBR2 (a direct-view HDTV). It was a tad under $4k back then. Since then Sony now offers an HT-ready version (without a built-in HD tuner) for a lot less money. I think it's in the $2,000-$2,500 range. Has a gorgeous HD picture.

I won't go as far as to call it startling, but there is definately a noise when it comes on. Almost a 'boing' noise. Hard to describe. I wonder if I can record it? Either way, it doesn't disturb me in any way, and I'm pretty anal-retentive about such things.

-Joe

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Remember the Intellivision?
http://www.gotmaille.com/nostalgia/

Got to 2nd the Samsung DLP TVs. I like those everywhere I have seen them, and you know you cna get it home and make a great improvement setting it up. I even saw one hooked up at a salvage building and they had plugged it in and it had been through god knows what and it still looked good. They also had a Zenith using the DLP sitting right by the Samsung and it was not bad.

Now my favorites prior to this was the Pioneer Elite models and I am fond of my Sony Rear Projection XBR model.

I am happy with my Samsung DLP. Although Time Warner is slow rolling out HDTV channels I was having a great time watching CSI-Miami in HDTV Widescreen last night till my power went out (again...what's up with electricity in Memphis by the way??). A DLP bonus, when I wanted to relocate my 42" from upstairs to downstairs I just picked it up and carried it - it just isn't that heavy. I would also add - if he has cable don't worry about the tuner - he won't need it - my 42" was less than 3K delivered and that was months ago. I am still on the fence about recommending widescreen vs. 4:3. Lots of stuff I watch end up in normal mode with black bands down the sides - and the first week it drove me crazy but now I don't even notice it, but wouldn't be surprised to meet people that never got used to it. Just my 2 cents...

The thumping sound on Sony tv's is a de-gaussing mechanism.

I thought I heard that DLP won't burn in an image. Can anyone verify, or disprove that? I was thinking about getting a DLP front projector (the Dwin Transvision3 looks promising...), but I don't want to make a huge investment like that if I'm going to be playing video games and letting my kids watch TV on it.


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Benjamin King
benjaminking@yahoo.com

Gonk, general HD, 16:9 etc thoughts.
So many personal variables can affect this one. What is the family makeup? What % is it used for predominantly? Sat/Cable/Terrestrial/DVD’s/gaming?

The costs involved going HD (sort of like a horse …its not just the initial outlay…its all those hay/oats/shoes/vets/board/fees).

Does he have sat/cable? Will he have to upgrade a dish,.and or his OTA roof antenna? Unlike analogue signals your antenna really has to be dialed in for digital signals. With analogue you can get snow, fuzzies etc on marginal pickups, and still view (abet grudgingly if the PQ’s bad) with HD, you get utter dropouts/freeze screens/ major pixelazation (total unwatchability) if the signal strength is not high.

Does he watch sports, I think for a male among a few other items I notice that tend to look incredibly rounded (3-D in HD). But for males its usually the Sports which floors them in amazement.

Take cardboard cutouts of football players…paste them in groupings on a square piece of cardboard …hang this flat on the wall ….look at it. Take the same cardboard cutouts of football players paste them upright on your piece of cardboard, and stand over the top looking down into them. That’s the difference in sports with HD. On football on your old analogue set you think you see 20 guys in a loose group on the sidelines with individual definition, but watch the same 20 guys in HD, you see two standing 2 ft apart, 2 with shoulders touching, and 3 ten feet over the grass behind the first batch, etc. You SEE with depth perception, you see the spaces between the players, hands-bodies-ball, referee’s etc. It’s an incredible difference.

For that treat I say yes it’s worth it. But then I factor all the current variables…. Connectivity issues, (as regards copyright infringement). 16:9 Vs 4:.3. Big screen (say 50” above) Vs large screen (anything in the 30-40 range). All these factors affect wheter you should jump NOW.

Personally, I got the greatest pleasure from going to 16.9 ratio, which I am nuts for. HD is 16:9 is icing on the cake, baked up fresh every weekend (in other words limited content but increasing). And with a Sony (not so all brands) stretch/zoom has developed past bare rudimentary to livable.

One factor I’d note is whether or not your friend watches a lot of analogue standard def stuff either over his cable/sat feed or OTA. Vs being a DVD movie buff etc. Most any price HD capable/integrated display of the current crop can do HD very very well. But these same displays have great disparity as regards decoders onboard for analogue viewing and (with 16.9..the stretch modes). Making either your core (SD viewing still greatly enjoyable when factoring tradeoffs) ) or hideous. Under 50” that is not as large (pun intended) issue as under. Trash in-trash out and trash blown up is well….just a lot more noticeable. Sounds Like I’m being cautionary, I am but only to a degree, I am concerned for where the copyright issues will lead firewire (next gen.) and DVI HDCP. Would I go back to non-HD , non 16:9. Once having dipped my toe past the border of SD,,,,NEVER. I can’t wait for the average set-purchaser to have there basic unit automatically come equipped with HD included (who buys a black and white these days…that kind of commonality), putting immense pressure on the broadcasters for “more of this great stuff” once they see it. Once you start seeing much in HD, going to the worst of the 5-channel compressed SD feeds from sat, is like being forced to watch your whole DVD or Lazer Disc collection on VHS tape.

Whoops I just reconsidered my answer ...tell your friend YES. (for my selfish reasons). You can live without it easily,,,once having tasted, - an appetite grows, The more viewers who become HD capable the quicker our broadcasting percentale of higher def programming will increase. We will shake ours heads and laugh at 400-something lines of resolution and think (how quaint) and amusing that our forebearers could stand hour after hour of that. just to watch a show.

I don't believe you can burn in an image with a rear projection DLP. It's a different technology that doesn't seem to be susceptible to that fault.

Be careful with a front projector for anything other than movies. Bulbs do burn out and then you're out probably close to $300 to replace it. Most people I've heard of with front projectors usually have a standard monitor nearby for video games and regular TV watching. Also, you need a much darker room to use a projector.

Another DLP issue, especially with low cost ones, is the "rainbow" factor. Because of the spinning color wheel, the viewer can sometimes see streaks of color in the image that after prolong viewing can cause headaches and the such. Higher cost DLPs use either multiple color wheels and/or faster spinning wheels to help avoid this problem. A good idea before buying a DLP would be to test one in your room to see if you can see the "rainbows."

I would look up that model on either of the following sites to see what current users think of that projector. You can also find a ton of info about "rainbows" and DLP vs. any other projector technology on these sites.

www.avsforum.com
www.projectorcentral.com

Good luck!!

gonk How about the 30" 16x9 Samsung Direct View set that I've seen around for like $900? It doesn't have DVI, but seems to do everything else.

Incidentally, this was the only other TV in the running with my Sony. I only decided on the Sony because I wanted the larger 4:3 image. The Samsung seems to be the best 30" 16:9 HDTV for under $1000.

-Joe


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Remember the Intellivision?
http://www.gotmaille.com/nostalgia/

Ah, good stuff. Very good stuff. Thanks, all.

His viewing habits are mainly TV (cable, not satellite) and some movies -- whatever TV he gets, he will also be getting a DVD player (along with a copy of The Two Towers, I very much suspect). Probably some sports, but I don't know how much. He does have an older house that probably had an antenna on it at some point in the past, but I don't think there's one up there at the moment. He seems to have settled on going with large screen (30"-36") direct view rather than big screen RP for HD (or even staying at 27" if he replaces the defunct XBR with a standard TV), but there's the question of 16:9 vs. 4:3 that's still bugging him. A 30" to 36" HD set is probably nearing the top of the list, and he's starting to lean toward going with 16:9. Judging from what I've heard here I think 16:9 is sounding more and more like a good choice if he does go HD, although he should probably get somebody to demonstrate the set with a standard def 4:3 signal before he decides for sure. The Samsung is available at Best Buy, so he could at least get a look at it. Thanks for all the help, keep it coming if anything else occurs to you, and I'll let you know what he decides.

Oh, and to add to JasonJ's good links about DLP and LCD, here's the article from Secrets that came out recently: DLP vs. LCD .

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

So it's de-magnetizing those items that might have been magnetized during previous use?

Cool! Thanks for the info.

For what it's worth, I had a similar search going a year ago. I wanted a wide screen direct view tv and almost settled for a Sony when I was asked to view a Mitsubishi 48" rear projection by a salesman. At first I wasn't impressed with the RP because of the changes in image brightness in vertical and horizontal seating arrangements. The best image was dead center and eye level. But as I kept comparing the two sets I really started to like the Mitsubishi, (both HD ready). In the end I purchased the Mitsubishi and found with proper set up the image retains its brightness over a much larger viewing angle than in the store. And progressive scan DVD viewing is exceptional! I also have a large room, 24' X 24', so the RP tv does not overwhelm it, the Sony would have been lost in it. 16:9 is definately the way to go. Once your eyes get use to it you'll never want to go back to a standard box image again. I know your friend doesn't want a rear projection HD tv but with their prices dropping so much it might be worth just looking at them.

He could always try the Infocus X1 for a free 30 day trial to see if he can live with a few rainbows. Its like Outlaw, you really have nothing to lose but 20 bucks in shipping. That would be my advice based on experience.

If he's going to be in the NY metro area, I'd be happy to give a demo

-Joe

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Remember the Intellivision?
http://www.gotmaille.com/nostalgia/

I hadn't really heard of the rainbow effect causing headaches with the DLP televisions, but I did hear that the images on the TV are so bright, that you almost have to have some ambient lighting to keep you from getting a headache just watching it. Not necessarily a negative because I'm sure it depends on how close you are to the TV, and I don't always want to watch movies in pitch black rooms. Place some ambient lighting on the wall behind the TV and it would probably do the trick.

Kinda falls under the 'what a nice problem to have' category I guess.

I've had a 40" Sony XBR for about 10 months now and I still love it. The picture is wonderful on normal TV/satellite/cable inputs and really great with a progressive DVD (sorry, I don't have HDTV). I have a very bright room with one wall full of windows and the TV is viewed by people sitting & standing and from many different angles (rear projection TV's were terrible in my room). And... with the TV's 300 pound weight, your average thief can't carry it out of the house

Whats EDTV??

A so-so Ron Howard movie notable mainly for Jenna Elfman. Grrrrr...

Would you believe...

Enhanced Definition TV. Basically 480p if I'm not mistaken. It would therefore be able to display your progressive scan DVD - but not your satellite or cable or off-air HD signals.

FOX pretends to be in the HD game with similar resolution (and lingo). Most people out there are unfortunately still too busy complaining about "them darn black bars on my screen when I play my DVDs" to take exception to FOX' tactics.

Most of those "affordable" plasmas out there fall into the EDTV category. Some of them do look great - with prog scan DVD. But the real HDTV ones that scale everything up to 720p (for example) look stunning in comparison - for a big jump in price.

Hope this defuzzifies the picture somewhat.

Jeff Mackwood

ps. to add an additional 2 cents to this thread, my own view is that plasma is going to be great for the masses, but will never compare in quality to other existing and emerging technologies. Personally, I already have a rear projection (CRT-based) HDTV that looks superb with its 1080i capability, but my next move will likely be to a front projector of some sort, in the next two years, when one will be available that has a native resolution (in widescreen mode) of 1080p. DLP might get there soon. LCoS already is - with bugs to be ironed out. Imagine simply plugging in your 720p or 1080i signal and having it upconvert to 1080p. That will be well worth the wait.